Jol: No Excuses

[mawspurs]

Source: Official Site

There was no hiding Martin Jol's disappointment after our opening day defeat at Sunderland.

Michael Chopra pounced to score the only goal of the game in injury time at the Stadium of Light.

Chances were few and far between - Paul Robinson made the only two saves of note before Chopra won it for the home side.

Apart from an impressive debut from Younes Kaboul in central defence, Martin had little to smile about.

"We didn't play well and didn't create as many chances as I would have liked," reflected a downcast Martin at the Stadium of Light. "Even a 0-0 draw would have been disappointing.

"When you don't play well a 0-0 draw is still a 0-0 draw and we have to learn how to protect that. We didn't and I could come up with excuses, but I won't.

"We had players out but we were still strong enough. It was the first match and we were determined to do well but it didn't happen."

Martin revealed that Michael Dawson sprained his ankle in training on Friday, forcing him out of the squad and a late reshuffle with Anthony Gardner coming in to partner Kaboul.

"I thought Anthony did a good job as did Kaboul, who had a very good debut for us, but that's not enough," added Martin.

"We needed more urgency because if you score in the first half you create pressure, but we didn't do that and made it difficult for ourselves. If we don't score, it's always a possibility that the other team will score and that's what happened."

[1986mattspur1986]

at least hes bein honest bt i really hope he gave da boys a real fukin rollickin and told thm tht he wants better performances n nt jus sympathised!

[newbie]

We didnt move the ball around quick enough, our fall backs need to overlap if we are going to create space, we looked narrow and moved teh ball around slow against Tarinio and we were narrow and move teh ball slow today. To many silly errors and we lost to a very poor team today.

I dont think we should blame Jol the fact is we didnt turn up today. I feel chimbonda looked a bit disintrested last couple of games and same applies to Berbatov. I am pissed but we have to pick ourslefs up and get winning its only one game and we can play a lot lot better then that.

we looked very rusty today no one seemed on the same wave length

[StevieJ]

For once i felt as though our defense was the best part of our game. Kaboul for me was awesome. I'm never happy with Gardner or Stalteri, and at times they showed why the just don't have the class to play for us. Apart from Malbranque the midfield was completely anonymous. That is one part of our side that separates the rest of the top sides from us. They do not have the required class

[robbiesavagehasbreasts]

kaboul did not have an impressive debut. he looked great sometimes but then again he made some really strange errors.

[Archibald&Crooks]

Jol: No Excuses

I should cocoa

[batigol]

.
I dont think we should blame Jol the fact is we didnt turn up today. I feel chimbonda looked a bit disintrested last couple of games and same applies to Berbatov. I am pissed but we have to pick ourslefs up and get winning its only one game and we can play a lot lot better then that.

we looked very rusty today no one seemed on the same wave length

I don't think we can blame Jol for the players' poor performance but I can certainly say that he didn't pick the best bench for this game.

We all know we have 4 of the best strikers you can have in EPL. However, strikers need to feed on passes and that is what we lacked today. Nobody played a decent ball in the whole afternoon. It is laughable to hear him say that he felt the midfield should have been more creative. What did he expect? We played both Zok and Jenas for the whole of last season, and he should know how creative both players are; not much at all. Why play the same players in the same formation and then blame them when you had an entire last season as reference to their creativity. How many assists from open play did both have last season? They work hard to win the balls back but imo, they just don't do enough when they have the ball. No ideas, no creativity.

Don't blame the midfield. They performed exactly as they did last season, and he should know it better than all of us. The question for me is why he had 2 strikers on the bench and no Taarabt and Kev-Prince; 2 players who appear to have the ability to change a game and do something that Jenas or Zok can never do. Also, why did he take so long to introduce Thudd when he has seen for more than 80 minutes that Zok and Jenas can create nothing.

I hope things change for the next game. Its not all doom and gloom (1st game mind you) but we can't always depend on our strikers being red-hot and creating most of the chances by themselves all the time; which was what Berbs and Keane did much of least season. The lack of difference in our play is what bugs me.

[dontcallme]

Defensively we looke shaky, not the defenders but also the midfielders who are supposed to offer protection.

No creativity either.

Sunderland did a decent job though and Keane has clearly trained them well to up the tempo at the end of the half.

Not a good start but we know we're capable of better a couple of wins and a good performance at Old Trafford and we'll be ok.

[ricardo_archibald]

For the first time ever I questioned Jol's team selection and tactics...despite the injuries...very negative and little creativity.

[ricardo_archibald]

...but it's early days so let's see...

[DC_Boy]

I thought the mid was protecting the defence ok till TT got subbed - for a home team Sunderland created little up till then

Also Jol got it wrong by not having Taarabt on bench - when taking off TT needed to bring on another mid not an extra striker and playing the Keane in mid trick again which simply doesn't work most times -

[N10toN17]

Jack of all trades, master of none, springs to mind with alot of our midfielders.

Be brave Martin, play some of the youngsters, ie Taarabt and KPB.

[DC_Boy]

Jack of all trades, master of none, springs to mind with alot of our midfielders.

Be brave Martin, play some of the youngsters, ie Taarabt and KPB.

Hi N10 - KPB's not fit yet - but certainly agree about Taarabt - I'd quite like to see him start on Tues - but for sure he should be in 16

[will8587]

I don't think we can blame Jol for the players' poor performance but I can certainly say that he didn't pick the best bench for this game.

We all know we have 4 of the best strikers you can have in EPL. However, strikers need to feed on passes and that is what we lacked today. Nobody played a decent ball in the whole afternoon. It is laughable to hear him say that he felt the midfield should have been more creative. What did he expect? We played both Zok and Jenas for the whole of last season, and he should know how creative both players are; not much at all. Why play the same players in the same formation and then blame them when you had an entire last season as reference to their creativity. How many assists from open play did both have last season? They work hard to win the balls back but imo, they just don't do enough when they have the ball. No ideas, no creativity.

Don't blame the midfield. They performed exactly as they did last season, and he should know it better than all of us. The question for me is why he had 2 strikers on the bench and no Taarabt and Kev-Prince; 2 players who appear to have the ability to change a game and do something that Jenas or Zok can never do. Also, why did he take so long to introduce Thudd when he has seen for more than 80 minutes that Zok and Jenas can create nothing.

I hope things change for the next game. Its not all doom and gloom (1st game mind you) but we can't always depend on our strikers being red-hot and creating most of the chances by themselves all the time; which was what Berbs and Keane did much of least season. The lack of difference in our play is what bugs me.


Well said. If I didn't know any better, this game could have been straight out of last season matches (except Kaboul switched with Dawson). Jol's tactics were the same, and he started/subbed the same players at the same time in the same place as he did last season.

I still don't understand the Zokora/Jenas partnership. TIME WILL NOT MAKE THIS PARTNERSHIP WORK! They're too similar as players. They both lack creativity, and can't assert themselves when needed. Everyone complained about them last year, but somehow we've all convinced ourselves that their problems from last year would magically fix themselves over the summer. Well, as we saw today, it's not working.
Huddlestone needs to play, and he's not gonna fucking do anything by entering the game in the 87th minute! Bench Jenas and Zokora, and start Hudd and Taarabt. We need someone creating something. Maybe they can do some good, but we'll never know until Jol finally decides to give them some playing time.

[eddiev14]

I'm so bored with this debate - we rarely start the season well, and to play Sunderland away on the first day was, in my mind, the worst fixture we could open with. With Roy Keane fireing them up with a point to prove, it was a banana skin from the off...

...Move on to the next game, we'll be fine.

[riversmonkey]

I agree no creativity, no width and the body language of Chimbo and Berbatov was worrying to say the least. The bench selection was bad, picking two strikers on the bench over Taraabt or even dare I say Routledge was not great on behalf of MJ and his staff

Zokora and Kaboul were the only standouts of a very stale team performance

[will8587]

I'm so bored with this debate - we rarely start the season well, and to play Sunderland away on the first day was, in my mind, the worst fixture we could open with. With Roy Keane fireing them up with a point to prove, it was a banana skin from the off...

...Move on to the next game, we'll be fine.

Sorry, but thats bullshit. I can think of at least 7 other teams I'd have rather played than fucking Sunderland. You'd have rathered ManU away? Or how about Liverpool? Sunderland are not a good team. They're a tough team, but a team we absolutely must beat.
You're just accepting failure for Spurs. We've dealt with failure for years, but this year we're better than that. Would ManU or Chelsea accept a loss to Sunderland? No, they'd be pissed off.

Roy Keane might be a good manager, but so is Martin Jol! If you go player by player, we're better than Sunderland at every position. But that somehow doesn't translate onto the pitch. We need some urgency on Spurs.

[pistolP]

I agree no creativity, no width and the body language of Chimbo and Berbatov was worrying to say the least. The bench selection was bad, picking two strikers on the bench over Taraabt or even dare I say Routledge was not great on behalf of MJ and his staff

Zokora and Kaboul were the only standouts of a very stale team performance


I second that on Zokora and Kaboul

[pistolP]

Sorry, but thats bullshit. I can think of at least 7 other teams I'd have rather played than fucking Sunderland. You'd have rathered ManU away? Or how about Liverpool? Sunderland are not a good team. They're a tough team, but a team we absolutely must beat.
You're just accepting failure for Spurs. We've dealt with failure for years, but this year we're better than that. Would ManU or Chelsea accept a loss to Sunderland? No, they'd be pissed off.

Roy Keane might be a good manager, but so is Martin Jol! If you go player by player, we're better than Sunderland at every position. But that somehow doesn't translate onto the pitch. We need some urgency on Spurs.


Roy Keane might be a good manager, but so is Martin Jol! If you go player by player, we're bettter than Sunderland at every position. The question is who is better?

[batigol]

I'm so bored with this debate - we rarely start the season well, and to play Sunderland away on the first day was, in my mind, the worst fixture we could open with. With Roy Keane fireing them up with a point to prove, it was a banana skin from the off...

...Move on to the next game, we'll be fine.

Sorry but I agree with Will that this is bullshit too. We rarely beat Chelsea too so and if I go by your train of thought it would have been fine if we just laid down n die last season when we met them at the lane? Why bother since we rarely beat them, they are the champions, we haven't beaten them in the league since 1990, and blah blah. Crap and you know it. It doesn't matter if we are at the start of the end of the season, the players should be going into the game all guns blazing.

[2dareis2do]

Apart from Malbranque the midfield was completely anonymous.

I think that replacing a midfielder with a striker is a tactical error. Should have gone for the draw rather than chase the win.

[claphamspur]

Some good posts in this thread. Hugely disappointing performance but may serve to encourage one more big push while the transfer window is still open.

Before the game I thought Davies would be one central defender too many but not now. And if BMJ thought we could press on without a genuine winger down the left then he may be having second thoughts.

Still think this is going to be a great season.

[navster]

I know this will be a little controversial but hear me out - I have been a spurs fan for over 25 years and at the age of 31 thats a pretty lengthy period of my life.. BUT

I feel Martin has taken us as far as we can go. He is a very good manager but not the man to take us to the top!! Remember how distraught Chelsea were when Claudio Raneiri was dismissed for Jose but that ruthlessness was needed and it paid dividends for Chelsea!! 2 back 2 back titles!

Under Jol, I am seeing the same poor mistakes and last season we were lucky to finish 5th! We all know that.

Today I knew we would lose as whenever we play a team with a bit of underbelly we lose, Bolton, Sunderland, Man Utd, Liverpool, etc etc etc.

Sorry an already disheartened spurs fan.

However... come what may I will be watching the boys on Tuesday with the same enthusiasm as when I was a 6 year old lad. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[asher]

Lets face it boys are 4 midfielders today would not get a look in at the top 4 and as we all know except BMJ this where our problem lies. We created nothing all game today against a poor side. If you don't create and score then you leave youself open to the sucker punch which is exactly what happened today. Its great having great strikers but what's the point if the supply line is crap. IF we don't address this before this the window closes we will end up outside the top 7 as other teams are now a lot stronger.

[Berbamaniac]

Forgive my rubbish spelling.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Agree with an awful lot of what has been written here. Obviously it's important not to knee jerk, but we should have the confidence to go places like <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place> and beat them comfortably. It's a measure of our team that we all thought this would be a cagey and dangerous game for us. When we will go to these places and do the job ala <st1:City><st1:place>Chelsea</st1:place></st1:City>/ <st1:place>Liverpool</st1:place>/ Man Utd?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
On the positive side I think that Kaboul was excellent. His forward runs, composure, stature and technique were great to see. This was, however, in stark contrast to our all round play.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I don't think the line up was all-together awful. They were probably the best players we had available. That said, they are all better then anything <st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place> have. That is not meant as a slur on <st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place>, or as a delusional statement, it's just true. So when can we make it count?! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Our midfield has been a problem for so long. I agree with the above poster who questions why we believe Zako and Jenas will work this year when they really didn't last year. This is not a knee jerk. They have such awful creativity and support. Zoko has never scored for us and rarely (if ever) creates, and with the amount of games we play and the players he has around him that is unnacceptable. This is an important season for Jenas: technically he is good; but he is not great at anything. To play Tainio on the wing now is also wrong. I have no worries with Malbranque. It's worrying to see the team angry and blaming each other on the first game of the season against a newly promioted side. I do think Jol has made many mistakes in his tenure. Some were today; we need to begin to hold him culpable for the team’s performances. The signing of a £16.5m striker to back up our least needy area, instead of signing a great and much needed creative midfielder/ left winger is frankly ridiculous and baffling. It was there for us all to see today.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I am sort of looking forward to, and dreading, Everton: I look forward to the things we must improve on, whilst I dread what might happen if we cock it up again like today and last season. Arteta and Johnson could really exploit us. That said, I am positive we'll win.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Blimey, that was a bit longer than I had intended. What do you think? Let the criticism commence.
<o:p> </o:p>

[chookz]

Jol out is not knee jerk

[will8587]

Forgive my rubbish spelling.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Agree with an awful lot of what has been written here. Obviously it's important not to knee jerk, but we should have the confidence to go places like <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place> and beat them comfortably. It's a measure of our team that we all thought this would be a cagey and dangerous game for us. When we will go to these places and do the job ala <st1:City><st1:place>Chelsea</st1:place></st1:City>/ <st1:place>Liverpool</st1:place>/ Man Utd?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
On the positive side I think that Kaboul was excellent. His forward runs, composure, stature and technique were great to see. This was, however, in stark contrast to our all round play.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I don't think the line up was all-together awful. They were probably the best players we had available. That said, they are all better then anything <st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place> have. That is not meant as a slur on <st1:place>Sunderland</st1:place>, or as a delusional statement, it's just true. So when can we make it count?! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Our midfield has been a problem for so long. I agree with the above poster who questions why we believe Zako and Jenas will work this year when they really didn't last year. This is not a knee jerk. They have such awful creativity and support. Zoko has never scored for us and rarely (if ever) creates, and with the amount of games we play and the players he has around him that is unnacceptable. This is an important season for Jenas: technically he is good; but he is not great at anything. To play Tainio on the wing now is also wrong. I have no worries with Malbranque. It's worrying to see the team angry and blaming each other on the first game of the season against a newly promioted side. I do think Jol has made many mistakes in his tenure. Some were today; we need to begin to hold him culpable for the team’s performances. The signing of a £16.5m striker to back up our least needy area, instead of signing a great and much needed creative midfielder/ left winger is frankly ridiculous and baffling. It was there for us all to see today.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I am sort of looking forward to, and dreading, Everton: I look forward to the things we must improve on, whilst I dread what might happen if we cock it up again like today and last season. Arteta and Johnson could really exploit us. That said, I am positive we'll win.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Blimey, that was a bit longer than I had intended. What do you think? Let the criticism commence.
<o:p></o:p>

Well said, it's still too early to start criticizing Jol. He made some mistakes today, but they were a result of a shitty team performance. If everyone was playing up to their potential, Jol wouldn't have had to make some poorly-chosen substitutes.

I agree with your analysis on the midfield. I think if Jol learned anything from this game, it's that he needs to make some changes in the midfield. As I've said before, Taarabt and Huddlestone have done nothing but impress during the preseason. Give them a chance. Surely, they cannot do any worse than the midfield today. Maybe Taarabt can add some width, because we're sorely in need of width. Hopefully, we can make another addition or two to the squad before the window closes, because it will be a long few weeks while Lennon is out.

[will8587]

Jol out is not knee jerk

Haha, then what is?

This guy has led us to two straight 5th place finishes, and after ONE game you want him out? Who would you replace him with?

[AFred]

Yep totally agree. Two defensive midfielders (Zokora and Tainio) in the starting lineup? Jol needs to a bit more courage me thinks especially against teams like Sunderland.

If we are aiming to finish in the top four, we should not be afraid of having a go against teams like Sunderland away game or not!

[vigospur]

I'm so bored with this debate - we rarely start the season well, and to play Sunderland away on the first day was, in my mind, the worst fixture we could open with. With Roy Keane fireing them up with a point to prove, it was a banana skin from the off...

...Move on to the next game, we'll be fine.

I can understand your first para but where do you get your last sentence from? Today's starting line up won't beat Everton either.
Sorry to say it but MJ seems to be developing a mindset where flair and talent are actually likely to stop players getting in the team. Today's selection was hopeless. A totally pedestrian midfield (although decent players in their own right) so no service to the front two. If that is the way he wants to play then Bent needs to start up front - he will make far more of lost causes then Berbatov or Keane.

[asher]

AS I said above its not rocket science. Look at the champions over previous seasons - the stand out players are their wide men. Man U, Giggs & Ronaldo, Arse, Pires & Ljungberg, Chelsea, Robben & Duff. Premiership winning teams have that flair and creativity in midfield with also a lot of goals. I can't understand why when we missed out on Nani we didn't follow that up with an alternative player ie: Queresma, Schneider, Ribery etc. I also belive Taarabt should definitely be at least on the bench as although raw he can create outr of nothing and do the unexpected. How many punched the nearest wall today after Chopra scored!!!!!!! aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[adwanhussein]

Gotto agree with you Vigospur ,very pedestrain Spurs midfield and will take Spurs to infamy.Sunderland today were techinacly better than Spurs and we were lucky not to lose by a score of three to nil.What a great disappoinment.

[S17PUR]

I don't understand a lot of the criticism of Zokora. I thought he was ok today in what was a poor performance. He was signed as a defensive midfielder and he's good in the role, whilst also offering more attacking qualities than most DM's. For me Jenas is the weaker of the two because he doesn't offer as much defensively and doesn't do enough going forward. He's a very frustrating player to watch - why oh why does he never use his pace (?!) - at least Zokora tries to force the issue and make things happen. Surely JJ's role in the midfield is to create, but he generally isn't that productive (before the abuse begins I do realise he scores a few goals). The potential is obviously there but I worry that he's never going to realise it.

[rsam8]

May have already been asked - but where was Routledge? Surely subbing him for Tainio before may have provided more natural width and possibly a better chance of a goal.

[eddiev14]

We'll beat Everton... chill out guys. We'll be fine.

[StanSpur]

Jol OUT!!!

[Yidatron]

AS I said above its not rocket science. Look at the champions over previous seasons - the stand out players are their wide men. Man U, Giggs & Ronaldo, Arse, Pires & Ljungberg, Chelsea, Robben & Duff. Premiership winning teams have that flair and creativity in midfield with also a lot of goals.

Completely agree...we only talk about jenas/zokora's creative limitations because there is absolutely f all happening out wide. Once lennon comes back, or in the unlikely event that we get a lw, these problems wont seem so obvious. Jenas is far from being riquelme, but he covers alot of ground, DOES get in some important challenges and generally keeps us ticking over. ditto zokora

[StanSpur]

Seriously though, Sunderland away is one of the hardest games for the start of a season. They are revved up and on a high after last season and pumped by keane to hit the ground running. I think if we played this fixture in October we would have walked it quite easily. The point has to be then why our boys weren't "up for it". It obviously didn't help with a second choice RB playing LB and fith choice CB alongside a 20 year old CB making his Premiership debut. I feel however the weakness was midfield today, no spark and no creativity - let's put it down to our usual sleepy start and get on with some winning, Everton and Derby are must wins now with Chelsea and Utd around the corner - we must have some confidence going into those games or we haven't a chance.

[mackay78]

and now I remember why I stopped visiting this site last season. It's been great reading posts on here the last few weeks - lots of excitement and friendly banter.

But then we loose a game and suddenly it's 'Jol out/we've got no chance' - a sickening attitude.

The management team (from top to bottom) is the best we've for ages - and yet some people question them. Unfortunately I only saw MOTD highlights - and we weren't great.

Some have questioned the midfield selection. Maybe he got it wrong - but I think Jols idea was to have a tuff to battle with the Sunderland style (and protect a weakened back four). Maybe Jol got it wrong - maybe he should have stuck an 18 year old in there from the start.

I'm obviously really gutted - but it's sad to see the usual fair-weather friends appear on here after one loss. If we go and win the next few games will you be the same one on here saying we're going to win the league? Jol has done more in the last two seasons than any other spurs manager in the premiership years. Let's give him and the team our support.

[oshaun]

and now I remember why I stopped visiting this site last season. It's been great reading posts on here the last few weeks - lots of excitement and friendly banter.

But then we loose a game and suddenly it's 'Jol out/we've got no chance' - a sickening attitude.

The management team (from top to bottom) is the best we've for ages - and yet some people question them. Unfortunately I only saw MOTD highlights - and we weren't great.

Some have questioned the midfield selection. Maybe he got it wrong - but I think Jols idea was to have a tuff to battle with the Sunderland style (and protect a weakened back four). Maybe Jol got it wrong - maybe he should have stuck an 18 year old in there from the start.

I'm obviously really gutted - but it's sad to see the usual fair-weather friends appear on here after one loss. If we go and win the next few games will you be the same one on here saying we're going to win the league? Jol has done more in the last two seasons than any other spurs manager in the premiership years. Let's give him and the team our support.

Exactly! Jol played it safe and unfortunately got some things wrong - but an opening game against newly promoted Sunderland could of gone so many ways. Wait at least until christmas till you start calling for "Jol Out" you bunch of t***s. Call yourself football supporters.

[nav007_2000]

For me the following players will not get us into a champions league position.
1) Gardner
2) Jenas
3) Zakora
4) Stalteri


Our midfield is a load of bollox. They can't win a ball, they can't create a chance for the strikers and they can't keep possesion. No wonder Berbatov gets p*ssed all the time.


What we need is a ball winner in central mid and a creative midfielder and a left winger.

I am unsure what KPB's best position is but i have been told that he is very creative, had the most assists in Germans league last season. Therefore my team to start against everton is

Robbo
Bale(if fit)/rocha Dawson Kaboul Chimbonda
Taraabt Huddlestone Boateng Maalbranque
Bent Berbatov

[bones82]

May have already been asked - but where was Routledge? Surely subbing him for Tainio before may have provided more natural width and possibly a better chance of a goal.


Was just about to ask, is he injured? He wasn't on the bench.

Is taarabt injured as well?

I would hardly call Malbranque an out and out winger. Made some poor decisions/crosses today. Hope he improves for the next game as we have no cover, still hoping for a left winger by the end of transfer window.

Jenas needs to learn how not to loose the ball fast, going forward he's fine. But it's painful to watch him on the ball as often looks like he's going to loose the ball. Thought he had improved a bit in this area, but obviously not.

Gardner, he failed to mark the back post on one occasion but luckly Robinson saved. Interstingly Rocha was on the bench, surely Gardner should be last choice, or sold.

Hudd to start vs Everton, and as lennon is injured want either Routledge, Taarabt or Boateng to start, get some creativity and passion.

Does anyone else get annoyed when we play 4-3-3 with three striker, maybe it is just that we are loosing when we play 4-3-3, but playing 3 strikers doesn't necisaily create more chances.
Pick a team to fit a system 4-4-2, or pick a system to fit a team 4-2-4 (bale and chimonda to provide the width, and 4 strikers)

Playing catch up already.

Anyway hopefully a hick-up, common spurs get ready to demolish everton.

Here is an article written by an evertonian
http://www.caughtoffside.com/2007/07/30/i-have-an-irrational-disgust-for-tottenham/2537.html

Let's demolish them to give him something to hate.

[sebo_sek]

I'm so bored with this debate - we rarely start the season well, and to play Sunderland away on the first day was, in my mind, the worst fixture we could open with. With Roy Keane fireing them up with a point to prove, it was a banana skin from the off...

...Move on to the next game, we'll be fine.
What about us? We too have a point to prove so why can't our manager fire our players up?

I agree with all those who say we should inject some youth into the team. taarabt to start on Tuesday instead of jenas and Hudd istead of Zokora.

You can always have one of Jenas/Zokora on the bench.

Why give taarabt all this time in pre-season and not use him whaen he is confident and properly warmed up and fit?

I love Jol but when compared to Fergie, Benitez or dare I say Wenger, his decisions are at times questionable at best.

[sebo_sek]

Exactly! Jol played it safe and unfortunately got some things wrong - but an opening game against newly promoted Sunderland could of gone so many ways. Wait at least until christmas till you start calling for "Jol Out" you bunch of t***s. Call yourself football supporters.
I am not saying Jol out, but for heavens aske HE was to blame for today. What do you mean played it safe?

I feel so jealous of some of the lesser teams who go all out. We ALWAYS play it safe away from home. That doesn't win you games and last season proved it.

Jol is not exempt from criticism.

[ultimateloner]

Agree that we have no creativity and width.

Main problem was that we gave up our passing game and looked impatient. We didn't move the ball around well, and it shows from the lack of wing-back involvement in our attack.

I don't think it's the fault of the players. Our players are good enough.

[spiderniall]

im extremely disappointed. this is the exact type of game we should be winning for a top4 club if thats what we hope to be. i mention yesterday beating the 3 promoted clubs home and away is guaranteed 18points. thanks to this now we only get a maximum of 15, if u look at last years points gap this is the difference between us and those above us. its simply not good enough to lose to a team that is pathetic compared to us

[DiscoD1882]

PLEASE Get a grip spurs fans, we lost to a 93 minute goal. We were playing a team who had just been promoted and hadnt lost for a very long time at home in front of a capacity stadium full of mad northerners and we didnt create a lot. Yes annoying There are 37 more games to go and I am NOT going to call for Jols head. get a f*8king grip. Its a marathon not a sprint.

[StanSpur]

Calm down dear, it's only a forum!

I'm not entirely convinced any of the calls for Jol out were indeed serious. I know for one that I meant it in jest. The fact is today we played poorly. If we have higher aspirations than 5th then these are the games we have to win. We noticeably lacked a "winner" on the pitch today, someone who will grab the game by the neck and pull his team-mates through - a player vital for tough away games. There was no leader on the pitch today, Robbie and Robbo do shout a lot but you need someone at CB or CM who can organize, control and drive the team. This is where I still think we fall short of the top 4 and the reason I still think we won't topple the arse. As much as I love King I don't think he's a leader, Daws could or even Hudd, if he made it into the first team, could turn out to be a Gerrard/Terry-like inspiration, forcing the team towards victory.

Today was just one game, I'm over it, I guess most fans are over it and I know the players will be over it.

[bigbearJOL]

Everyone is annoyed and gutted at this result.... as am I. However, not to take anything away from Sunderland who were technically better than us and wanted it more today.

Playing a team like Sunderland today with Roy Keane in charge and them being team out there to prove something is a very very difficult game to start.

In saying this, I'm not saying we played well. We were awful, and some of the team selection was questionable. I just think that it is the first game of the season, and although it's not the start of the season we would have wanted, there's still 37 GAMES TO GO!!!

So everyone chill out and have faith in the man who has taken us to 2 consecutive 5th place finishes and brilliant cup runs last term..... Also who knows, we still might make a new signing in the remainder of the window, which is deemed so necessary by so many...

COYS

[zoow]

We didnt play well and I cant remember the last time we played well at the start of season. I believe, the only error Jol did was to subs Zo with THudd. But...hey....with Stalteri and Gardner at the back, we all know something will happen against us.

1st game at Sunderland might not be a good start of the season. What about against Everton at the first home game of the season? Hope all are fired up.

COYS

[eddiev14]

What about us? We too have a point to prove so why can't our manager fire our players up?

I agree with all those who say we should inject some youth into the team. taarabt to start on Tuesday instead of jenas and Hudd istead of Zokora.

You can always have one of Jenas/Zokora on the bench.

Why give taarabt all this time in pre-season and not use him whaen he is confident and properly warmed up and fit?

I love Jol but when compared to Fergie, Benitez or dare I say Wenger, his decisions are at times questionable at best.

Yeah, I must say that i was surprised to not see Taarabt on the bench.

Never mind though. If we beat the big teams then results like this won't matter...

Looking forward to seeing Bale and Lennon on the flanks.:beer:

[spurs_viola]

MJ is indeed a better manager than the ones we had after Venables (although if Hoddle was given the same resources and support from the DoF, plus a little more time to learn from his man-mgmt mistakes, he may well have taken spurs close to the top 4 too). Criticism of him is not just because we lost the 1st game of the new season - why is it so difficult to see? Criticism of him is justified now because we talk about exactly the same problems that dogged us the whole of last season now, when the real play starts in the new season and after the whole pre-season too.

Sorry to repeat some of my previous points, but I'm quite interested to find out what fellow spurs fans think:
It is exactly the responsibility of Jol and Comolli to select players they feel will push us further up and it is up to Jol (and presumably Hughton too) to select tactics and coach the players to follow it. So to complain about "lack of creativity" etc as if they are some outside, unfortunate occurences, and not expect criticism directed at management is just naive and not very clever...

If you choose negative tactics and unbalanced team, please don't expect them to produce good football and go out for a win.
If you choose positive tactics, with emphasis on creating problems for the opposition rather than mainly trying to negate problems they can create for you, and then players do not follow your instructions, REPLACE them - not choose same players every time, ie not the same MF quartet Jenas, Malbranque, Zokora, Tainio again and again away!

After all the hype and expectations it was a bit depressing to see exactly the same team (bar Kaboul) as last season when we were away and when King/Dawson and Lee were injured. Depressing in the way that you were kind of expecting the kind of performance that lost us so many away games and contributed to so few clean sheets last season.
Robinson was not to blame at all though - unlike several of last season's matches - and Kaboul showed why he is likely to prove a very good signing. But the tactics, negative midfield and the startlingly mediocre Stalteri and Gardner sadly lived up to those concerns/expectations...

Martin Jol seems to have developed a serious case of Ericssonitis last year and it doesn't appear to have gone away at all: picking same players even though there's clearly a disbalance (Jenas/Tainio/Zokora/Malbranque with minor variations) and not promoting young exciting players for fear of their lack of experience. Unless you give players like Taarabt, Boateng, Dervitte a real chance (ie playing them from the start in several of competitive games, not just occasional 20-25 min), how can they get the experience they need? Wenger gave such a chance to Fabregas, Clichy, et al, Ferguson to the young guns of the 90s - and it paid off handsomely. None of those young players were established stars - they went on to become stars after getting trust and guidance from their managers.

[BelsizeSpur]

We are simply not good enough when playing away against teams whose name beings with an 'S' who wear red and white stripes.

[deppman007]

I didnt watch the game, Im away in LA on business, but I was disappointed and a little suprised to see we'd lost. I expected a tough game but felt we'd at least get a draw.

I agree with a lot of whats been said here and even though it's the first game of the season we need to be rolling teams like Sunderland if we are to break into the top 4.

Things must pick up right away, more from an intimidation and confidence perspective than anything else.

COYS!!!

[spursinhk]

Two years ago, we start the season brilliantly away to Portsmouth with ............... Routledge playing. Give him and the other guys a chance when our midfield is not doing anything good. If we lost to Everton, we are reapeating what happened last year. But make things worst, we lost to a newly promoted side, not a 5th place contender Bolton.

[tevezito]

Look on the positive side guys - last year we lost away to newly promoted Reading 2-0 so if we call Sunderland this year's Reading we're already a goal up on last year!

To finish fourth we need to take more points off the top four - beating the three promoted teams home and away is unrealistic.

Jol picked the best available team and made sensible substitutions. If Chimbonda hadn't gone to sleep in the 93rd minute we'd've gone home with a valuable if slightly undeserved point. But I see Chimbonda doesn't get as much stick on here as Jol, Jenas, Stalteri and Gardner - none of whom did badly today.

Why don't you shout at me too.

[will8587]

To finish fourth we need to take more points off the top four - beating the three promoted teams home and away is unrealistic.

Why don't you shout at me too.

I think I will. :-)

Unrealistic to get 18 points from the promoted teams? Maybe your expectations are unrealistic. Let's look at last year's results.

VS. the three newly promoted teams:
Manchester United - 16 points
Chelsea - 16 points
Liverpool - 16 points
Arsenal - 15 points
Spurs - 10 points

The top 4 don't have too much trouble with the promoted teams. If we hope to put Spurs in their company, we must do better than only winning half the games against these teams. Maybe we won't win every single game, but we must go into every game expecting to win. Right now, we're stuck in this losing mindset, and we (the fans), the players, and the coach need to kick this negative thinking. We're the mighty Tottenham Hotspur, and expecting 5 wins against 3 Championship teams isn't unrealistic, it's absolutely necessary to make the Champions League.

[lifeof...]

What an Awful game, usaully im in the hey its only the 1st few games, lets not get carried away...but this was just awful...Starting your 1st game away,with 5 regular 1st teamers missing, of which 3 of those are from the back 4, is going to be difficult(espeically with our defensive record) But we never looked like we wanted to play to win, The 1st 20-30 mins i could understand and accept, but after that, to me it was clear, sunderland were there for the taking. Like pretty much everyone else, i couldn't understand the bench..why wasn't taarabt on the bench.
And same old Spurs giving away a poor goal, giving them 3 gift wrapped oppourtunties (one they finally managed to take)

Im starting to think(well thought it for awhile) whoever is the defensive coach needs to be replaced.

Jol right there is no excuse, but there is clearly a place to lay the blame, it isnt the strikers, it isnt the mid field, its Jol and his back room staff. I didnt have a problem with the starting 11, but the bench was all wrong. We didn't need 2 defensive players on the bench, we didn't need 2 strikers on the bench. We did need and clearly should have Taarabt on the bench, i would have probably put Routledge on the bench too, as if nothing working, he would have at least made the pitch (game) less narrow giving sunderland a more difficult job to defend.Hudd on the bench i agree with.

Having seen this match, i am not looking forward to tuesday, as i can see the same thing happening, selection and playing style, and i use the word style very loosly...!st game of the season...a HUGE disspointment

[batigol]

What an Awful game, usaully im in the hey its only the 1st few games, lets not get carried away...but this was just awful...Starting your 1st game away,with 5 regular 1st teamers missing, of which 3 of those are from the back 4, is going to be difficult(espeically with our defensive record) But we never looked like we wanted to play to win, The 1st 20-30 mins i could understand and accept, but after that, to me it was clear, sunderland were there for the taking. Like pretty much everyone else, i couldn't understand the bench..why wasn't taarabt on the bench.
And same old Spurs giving away a poor goal, giving them 3 gift wrapped oppourtunties (one they finally managed to take)

Im starting to think(well thought it for awhile) whoever is the defensive coach needs to be replaced.

Jol right there is no excuse, but there is clearly a place to lay the blame, it isnt the strikers, it isnt the mid field, its Jol and his back room staff. I didnt have a problem with the starting 11, but the bench was all wrong. We didn't need 2 defensive players on the bench, we didn't need 2 strikers on the bench. We did need and clearly should have Taarabt on the bench, i would have probably put Routledge on the bench too, as if nothing working, he would have at least made the pitch (game) less narrow giving sunderland a more difficult job to defend.Hudd on the bench i agree with.

Having seen this match, i am not looking forward to tuesday, as i can see the same thing happening, selection and playing style, and i use the word style very loosly...!st game of the season...a HUGE disspointment

Exactly. The bench was all wrong and totally imbalanced. It didn't provide possible solutions for evident problems from the tactics and players he used in the starting 11; the lack of width and lack creativity in the centre midfield.

Like mentioned earlier, we need some variations in our play. We need to be able to attack teams from the left wing, right wing, and down the middle through passing or long punts to target players. Yesterday's performance showed our worst; inability to attack Sunderland in any form except a long punt to Berbs and hoping he can do his magic. This problem has been existing since last season and the lack of change or rectifications is seriously frustrating me.

No Jol out for me but the fact that he mentioned the midfield not being creative enough and the strikers not being hardworking enough is frankly bollocks to me as he didn't change his tactics or team from last season at all. He should only be judged at the end of this season but he does deserve some criticism for the result today and his comments after the game just didn't help him in anyway. He said the truth but it has been the truth since last season so why the hell does he stick with the same players and tactics which will inevitably give him the same performance and results again?! :bang:

[TimJ]

That McShane looked good. I really hated him after about 20 mins so that must mean he was doing a good job. I thought only Kaboul has a good game for us.

I agree with the above that it was a very poor game when neither side looked any good at all. Sunderland are going to struggle to stay up on this evidence.

For us, as is often the case, Keane went missing after 20 mins, the midfield was all over the place with no one doing anything except Steed, but he was so undisciplined in his positioning he squandered any good work he did. Gardner looked like a rabbit in headlights, Chimbonda looks like he would rather be elsewhere and JJ and Zokora defended ok but not much else.

I very below par performance. Even an average performance on our part would have thrashed what is a very weak Sunderland team (apart from McShane).

I am not a happy man.

[mttgary]

We had a midfield of 4 players who worked hard but totally lacked the ability to put in a creative through ball or try a shot at goal. We need to keep two of them and add in two creative players, who do have the ability to shoot at goal (any two from Huddlestone, Tarbaat or the Prince) for the next game.

I actually thought Berbatov played some lovely touches and came back many times to fight for the ball.

[sebo_sek]

Look on the positive side guys - last year we lost away to newly promoted Reading 2-0 so if we call Sunderland this year's Reading we're already a goal up on last year!

To finish fourth we need to take more points off the top four - beating the three promoted teams home and away is unrealistic.

Jol picked the best available team and made sensible substitutions. If Chimbonda hadn't gone to sleep in the 93rd minute we'd've gone home with a valuable if slightly undeserved point. But I see Chimbonda doesn't get as much stick on here as Jol, Jenas, Stalteri and Gardner - none of whom did badly today.

Why don't you shout at me too.

That' not positive thinking at all - in fact it is LOSER TALK. Losing by one goal less then last year is supposed to make things better?

Beating those teams both home and away is not only realistic - it is a must. And based on yeasterday's performance do you think we have ANY chance against the top 4? I don't

The best possible 11? Where was the creativity? Why not put Rocha in the middle and Gardner on the left where he was so inspiring at the end of last season? Huddlestone on at exactly the same moment he put Bent on - they work so well together. And one of Taarabt or Routledge on the bench at least.

The substitutions looked sensible on paper, but in the end didn't work - especially because he put Hudd on 4 minutes from time - during which he had one cracking shot on goal. It could have been so much more.

To sum up - the players were not motivated, the coach made simple, not to say school boy errors in judgement and hence we lost.

Bring on Everton, though I will reserve my optimism.

[sebo_sek]

Martin Jol seems to have developed a serious case of Ericssonitis last year and it doesn't appear to have gone away at all: picking same players even though there's clearly a disbalance (Jenas/Tainio/Zokora/Malbranque with minor variations) and not promoting young exciting players for fear of their lack of experience. Unless you give players like Taarabt, Boateng, Dervitte a real chance (ie playing them from the start in several of competitive games, not just occasional 20-25 min), how can they get the experience they need? Wenger gave such a chance to Fabregas, Clichy, et al, Ferguson to the young guns of the 90s - and it paid off handsomely. None of those young players were established stars - they went on to become stars after getting trust and guidance from their managers.

:clap:
I am afraid that if this trait continues, we will lose that stream of youngsters who come to us so eagerly. Trust the youngsters. What's the point of playing them in pre-season when you don't use them during the season?

[chookz]

I am sorry we don't need two strikers on the bench unless we started the match with Bent up from on his own. I'd rather have a sub keeper two midfielders a defender and striker.

We need people who can come in and change the atmosphere of a game then again I have just seem what Santa Cruz and Derbishire did for rovers

[mawspurs]

I think that replacing a midfielder with a striker is a tactical error. Should have gone for the draw rather than chase the win.

Sorry your comment doesn't match your user-name.

I actually think it should have been a double substitution when Bent was brought on, it should have been Bent for Berby (who just didn't look interested or happy) and Hudd for one of the central midfield duo, possibly Zokora as he had already been booked.

We then would still have had Tainio's battling qualities, which we missed when he went off, at the same time as fresh legs in key positions.

But we shouldn't go for a draw when a win is there for the taking, Sunderland didn't.

[mawspurs]

On the positive side I think that Kaboul was excellent. His forward runs, composure, stature and technique were great to see. This was, however, in stark contrast to our all round play.

Agreed I though Kaboul had a very good debut, not without errors but in general he recovered well when he made a slip.

I don't think the line up was all-together awful. They were probably the best players we had available. That said, they are all better then anything Sunderland have. That is not meant as a slur on Sunderland, or as a delusional statement, it's just true. So when can we make it count?!

I agree again here, I think that the choice of opposition for pre-season has a factor here, if you meet top quality opposition in pre-season then you get used to making your quality count earlier. unfortunately our opposition this pre-season was not out of the top drawer.

This is an important season for Jenas: technically he is good; but he is not great at anything. To play Tainio on the wing now is also wrong. I have no worries with Malbranque. It's worrying to see the team angry and blaming each other on the first game of the season against a newly promoted side. I do think Jol has made many mistakes in his tenure. Some were today; we need to begin to hold him culpable for the team’s performances. The signing of a £16.5m striker to back up our least needy area, instead of signing a great and much needed creative midfielder/ left winger is frankly ridiculous and baffling. It was there for us all to see today.

Again I agree. This is a key season for Jenas and if he doesn't show he can kick on this season he may well be a candidate for transfer next summer. With regard to Tainio I actually think that while Lennon is out injured we should have Tainio in the centre and Jenas on the right side, he has far more pace than Tainio to beat a man and Tainio is at his best in the thick of things. It would make the midfield more balanced in my opinion.

I am sort of looking forward to, and dreading, Everton: I look forward to the things we must improve on, whilst I dread what might happen if we cock it up again like today and last season. Arteta and Johnson could really exploit us. That said, I am positive we'll win.

Well we have to hope that the Sunderland game will act as the wake up call and kick up backside that the team obviously need, that and the fact we are at home will hopefully mean a win for us.

[egyptianfan]

That may not be a core point here: but to have your EPL pre-season with south african local teams may not be the best choice.

I know Man U tours Asia, but they probably do that for money.

I don't have a doubt that the club can host a real strong tournament in the summer, just like Ajax does.

[phatfreddy]

As me and my mate say to each other after the first game of the season "Different season, same ol' shit".
It was like watching last years game against Bolton.
Playing too narrow, Nothing creative in midfield blah blah..
Let's see what happens on tuesday/saturday.
Defeat is not an option if Spurs want that 4th spot.

[Timspurs]

No creativity,No width and No idea!!!! Oh and No passion.......
Jenas is not the midfield maestro we need,he comes up against a hard working centre midfield player and goes sideways or backwards.
Tanio on the right was a bad choice. At best he is a squad player and not top notch qaulity,would rather see Jenas out there till Lennon comes back and play the Hudd in the middle and maybe give Taraabt a chance to show what he can do.
I thought Kaboul played well but why Gardner!!! he looked well out of his depth.
We get into the final third and we become very narrow and run out of idea's.Hopefully Bale will give us that final cutting edge and thrust down the left.

[vigospur]

That may not be a core point here: but to have your EPL pre-season with south african local teams may not be the best choice.

I know Man U tours Asia, but they probably do that for money.

I don't have a doubt that the club can host a real strong tournament in the summer, just like Ajax does.

Sorry but I don't think the pre season opposition has any bearing. Even when last season was underway we had similar performances at Sheff U, Reading and Watford.
Yesterdays non-performance was just the latest and for me the team is lacking character in this type of game. How many came off looking as though they sweated blood? Do they all really hurt when they get home?
And where is the leadership - on and off the pitch - which allows these performances to keep on coming?
Oh for a few youngsters good enough to bring some real spirit. Man C - five Acadamey players on the pitch yesterday!!
Yes we may (may!) now have two decent home performances but this would only mask this ongoing problem.

[tananwat_w]

Jol's tactics for away games have always been negative, and yesterday's was no difference. We didn't show winning mentality but instead not-losing. If we look at those top teams playing away to a lesser team, they at least try to press the team and nick it when it comes to the later stage. For us, we either lack quality to do the same or look happy that we don't lose.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what Jol have done for the last 2 seasons, but I seriously doubt if he is the man to get us to the next level. His man management is second to none, but his tactics seem unconvincing at times especially when we need to change the game.

How can a player of Jenas ability never be dropped when he's available? For me, he can at best be a good squad player, not the first name to be on the team sheet. Jol obviously doesn't agree. I seriously doubt if KPB or Taraabt or other will be given much chance in the middle as the spots are strictly reserverd for Jenas and Zokora. I had high hope for this season, but if we don't improve the midfield pair, I don't see how we are going to make the 4th spot.

[Timspurs]

As me and my mate say to each other after the first game of the season "Different season, same ol' shit".
It was like watching last years game against Bolton.
Playing too narrow, Nothing creative in midfield blah blah..
Let's see what happens on tuesday/saturday.
Defeat is not an option if Spurs want that 4th spot.

Yup i agree, we will be judged over the next 2 games which we need to step it up and show everyone that we mean business.
Time to bench Jenas and Tainio and bring in Taraabt and the Hudd,at least they wont do any worse than JJ and TT on Saturdays performance...........Is it me or does Jenas take a crap corner or free kick!!!!

[shelfmonkey]

Would some-one please enlighten me !! What IS the point of Jenas ? He spent most of the game impersonating the invisible man, and when you did see him, he was on his arse, having just been brushed to the floor, waving his arms and whining to the ref !! I just can't see what value he adds to the team. The whole team played poorly, I know, but Jenas is supposed to be the play maker, to gets things going, but as usual he was nowhere to be seen.



Let's hope it was just a bit of ring rustiness !!




COYS

[pistolP]

Calm down dear, it's only a forum!

I'm not entirely convinced any of the calls for Jol out were indeed serious. I know for one that I meant it in jest. The fact is today we played poorly. If we have higher aspirations than 5th then these are the games we have to win. We noticeably lacked a "winner" on the pitch today, someone who will grab the game by the neck and pull his team-mates through - a player vital for tough away games. There was no leader on the pitch today, Robbie and Robbo do shout a lot but you need someone at CB or CM who can organize, control and drive the team. This is where I still think we fall short of the top 4 and the reason I still think we won't topple the arse. As much as I love King I don't think he's a leader, Daws could or even Hudd, if he made it into the first team, could turn out to be a Gerrard/Terry-like inspiration, forcing the team towards victory.

Today was just one game, I'm over it, I guess most fans are over it and I know the players will be over it.


We had a leader on the pitch given time kaboul can turn out to be a leader from the back but time will tell.We will need a leader in midfield as well

[rupsmith]

Im sorry but these mistakes are just repeated over and over again. Defence was alright - midfield shockingly inept , flat, no creativity and width. Didnt help that fucking petrov was doing so well for City yesterday

[GetSpurredOn]

To be honest I only watched the first half because I had to go out, but this was my take. Hate to say it, but upon seeing the team sheet I feared for the worst. No natural width or creativity. Tainio is a workhorse CM, Jenas is best in broken play with his late runs, Zokora cannot deliver a final ball (pass/shot) but his workrate and surging runs often move us into the right areas to attack, Malbranque was possibly the best of the four actually trying to make things work but still struggles on the left. The balance was all wrong, if we continue to play a right footer on the left (or even two for that matter) who's instinct is to drift in, then we must have someone on the opposite flank who is capable of making a telling contribution in an attacking sense, otherwise we become too predictable looking to thread passes through centrally, and with Huddlestone not in the side we don't really have anyone capable of doing that succesfully. If we are going to play that narrow, then Huddlestone needs to start to offer some sort of guile, ush Jenas out wide right and task him with staying wide use his pace to stretch the play, let Zokora or Tainio offer the mobility and discipline alongside Huddlestone and let Malbranque offer the forward thrust from inside left. Or give Routledge a chance, our only true winger other than Lennon, he can't ave been any worse than what we had yesterday, having someone like him out right would have stemmed the play from their left as Wallace looked to have no defensive job at all and so was alowed to link with Richardson all too often and too easily. Pick players to fit the system, not round pegs in square holes. The other option would've/should've been Taarabt, more than capable of playing wide and always ready to ask questions of the defence. O'Hara wouldn't have been a bad option either, at least as an inside left he has a left foot to offer balance, I'm stretching it now to too many youngsters, but I feel the balnace in midfield was the problem as they didn't really link the back four to the front men, offering little or no protection and little or no creativity. They each seemed to be trying to cover defence and attack stretching themselves too thin, jack of all trades master of none, rather than sharing the workload, some more defensive some more offensive.
In defence, Stalteri looked fairly composed and disciplined at LB, baring some slight errors Gardner, who probably wouldn't have expected to be involved wasn't too bad (to be honest I would've thought Rocha would've got the nod before Gardner), Kaboul in a new look back line looked fairly good, Chimbonda, well, frustrating really, able but uninterested? People are saying the same of Berbatov, but with that kind of service I'd be fed up too. When the game is poorm like that Keane struggles because he tries too hard toturn things around and actually makes himself ineffective as he has to come so deep and gets the ball in the wrong areas.
The back line doesn't really need changing unless Dawson and/or one of the left backs becomes available. The front two should be ok. The midfield needs balancing, either Routledge, Taarabt or Malbranque on the flanks with Huddlestone in the middle alongside Tainio or Zokora. Jenas, I'm not sure, he can only play alongside Zokora in the middle when we have real penetration on the flank. Boateng could be an option wide should he be ready.
The other option if we really have no width is to use three central midfielders in central roles, with Keane given a license to drift and roam, Bent/Defoe and Berabtov up front, that way when Keane does come deep Berbatov still has someone else with him to link with, also havong three centrally allows us to assign someone to shield, but for this we need widt and service from th fullbacks, not sure if we're right for that.

[DiscoD1882]

Im sorry but these mistakes are just repeated over and over again. Defence was alright - midfield shockingly inept , flat, no creativity and width. Didnt help that fucking petrov was doing so well for City yesterday

My thoughts exactley. petrov looked good yesterday. but Citeh offered him more Thai Bhart so what can you do??

Still wouldnt mind seeing Taylor in a spurs shirt.

[Jonesey]

Very sensible posts. I was bloody furious at how similar wewere to last season when, as you say, Berbs and Keane made many of their own goals.

I've never been quiet about my frustration with Jenas on this site and yesterday reminded me of why. He epitomised the team's complacency and sloppyness. Same with Zokora, especially his passing.

We have absolutely NO CHANCE of breaking into the top 4 with those two as our central midfield partnership and Jol should know that by now.

Coupled with JJ's and DZ's ineptitute, Tainio had a very poor game, leaving Malbranque as our only star in midfield and with Salty's bumbling and Chimbonda having few options to pass to whenever he tried to get forward, Kaboul as our only star in defence.

Got to give it to Sunderland though - they defended brilliantly ... but there will be much better defences to try to open up and on yesterday's display we are going to struggle bigtime.

Wholeheartedly agree with you on the bench;there's no point having 4 of the best strikers in the premier league if you give them nothing to run on to and no space to work with.

Kevin Prince-Boateng, Taraabt or even Ghaly could have done that in place of Tainio had they been on the bench. Or Jenas - although there's little point mentoining him in this context as Jol would never sub him.

Much like much of last year we were lightweight, lacklustre and we should have been stronger in midfield to support our forwards - but unlike last year we had options available to correct that despite our injury list. Sorry but the result of this game is Jol's fuck-up.

I'm just thankful that we weren't playing a Man U or Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or even Man City based on their display yesterday because if we were we would have lost by a much bigger margin.

[Danny1]

I agree with people saying that it is the first game and we have two home games coming up so we should be looking to them....BUT.....

I dont or never will think that Tainio is anywhere near good enough to be in our starting 11, a sub player yeah fair enough. All this pre-season one of our best players was Taarabt, he has the skill, confidence, arrogance and more! He has been awesome in pre-season and yeah he needs to learn to pass a bit earlier, but he will only learn that by playing games!

Also Im not a fan of Jenas, yeah he runs around a lot, but he doesnt actually do anything, he cant pass, he rarely shoots and he cant defend, Im looking forward to seeing what this Boateng is like and if he is as good as the potential then he is our midfield man!

Lennon Zokora/Hud Boateng Taarabt

That should be our midfield!

[rupsmith]

Im not sure about Jol out but I did read somewhere that this would have to be the season on which he is judged and i have to agree with that .The squad is the best in years but we need someone who can give us more defensive strength and also creativity in midfield. I havent seen a decent through ball in nearly two seasons from midfield - only the occasional cross. Its always Keano or Berba creating stuff.

[tingy98]

We had a leader on the pitch given time kaboul can turn out to be a leader from the back but time will tell.We will need a leader in midfield as well

totally agree with the leader in midfield.... need another Davids type inspirational signing!!!

i'm all for buying youth but we need an experienced quality pro in centre mid to help the current crop develop.

i'm bored of buying potential.... we've got bundles of it now from under 16's through to reserves/first team!!

we need champs league/title winners/world cup or two to develop the right attitude into our current bunch and pull us through games like yesterday!!

if we had an older pro's playing yesterday.... i'm pretty sure he wouldn't be mugged off by a pair of div 1 nobodies!!

saying that though.... I can't think of any suitable candidates....

[Jonesey]

Actually I have to say I'd rather Keane as our manager than Jol. Jol will never create a team who show fire and underbelly.

Think about it; in the last 2 years or so, win or lose, when have you ever seen our players roaring with spirit and passion and spurring each other on in the way you see players at Chelsea or Man U or even Bolton. Never.

When we concede in the final minute of the game we just stand there like catatonic zombies and then trudge off to the dressing room as if it's not the end of the world. I know it's not in the grand scheme of things but at that moment it bloody well should be.

[Caribaussie]

AS I said above its not rocket science. Look at the champions over previous seasons - the stand out players are their wide men. Man U, Giggs & Ronaldo, Arse, Pires & Ljungberg, Chelsea, Robben & Duff. Premiership winning teams have that flair and creativity in midfield with also a lot of goals. I can't understand why when we missed out on Nani we didn't follow that up with an alternative player ie: Queresma, Schneider, Ribery etc. I also belive Taarabt should definitely be at least on the bench as although raw he can create outr of nothing and do the unexpected. How many punched the nearest wall today after Chopra scored!!!!!!! aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Broke the remote control and punched the crap out of the pillow.

[Jonesey]

I have to agree - if we are going to play the long-ball shit like Bolton or, actually, how Sunderland used to play ironically then Bent and Berbatov are the best partnership.

Not that i want to see us play like that at all because i bloody well don't. Jol seems to like it though.

[Caribaussie]

totally agree with the leader in midfield.... need another Davids type inspirational signing!!!

i'm all for buying youth but we need an experienced quality pro in centre mid to help the current crop develop.

i'm bored of buying potential.... we've got bundles of it now from under 16's through to reserves/first team!!

we need champs league/title winners/world cup or two to develop the right attitude into our current bunch and pull us through games like yesterday!!

if we had an older pro's playing yesterday.... i'm pretty sure he wouldn't be mugged off by a pair of div 1 nobodies!!

saying that though.... I can't think of any suitable candidates....
Pirlo,juninho(lyon)Deco types,people who can control and dictate the pace of the game.

[Yakflange]

Stick with Jol, so long as he keeps taking the club forward each season. He may not be a great manager yet, but if we give him the opportunity to prove himself, over time he may become great. Alex Ferguson did very little in his first three or four years at Manchester United and was close to being sacked - that would have been a bit of a mistake.

As for the performance yesterday, OK, it was poor, but it's just one game (I'd have been happy with a point, which we nearly got - I think Sunderland will do better this season than we give them credit for). We were looking good in pre-season, we're not suddenly rubbish because of one game. Please stop all this kneejerk reaction nonsense - wait until we're ten or fifteen games in to the season and then see how we are.

[Jonesey]

The problem with Zokora is that he never actualy DOES much. He gets the ball, runs forward with it, inevitably into a couple of defenders/midfielders of the opposing team and then, well ... falls over. And hopes for a free kick.

He never quite seems to pass the ball to any of our players.

Jenas is very similar but crucially different; he gets the ball, runs forward with it, inevitably into a couple of defenders/midfielders of the opposing team and then, well ... passes backwards.

It's not surprising that no other teams came in to try to poach either player over the summer. It's because most managers can see that they are not very good footballers at Premier League level. I wish Jol and Houghton could too.

[scottadams40]

What fucking surprise, you twats are out with the daggers already! A team missing its Captain, its most creative midfielder and anyone who can pass a ball with a left foot, is going to struggle away from home against any team! Lets not forget where we were before Jol took over, 11th, 9th 15th and all that bollocks, get fucking real! The only real issuse is width, when we don't have Lennon, we lack any depth and we need a guy who can deliver on the left, but everyone knows that. So if you wanna get wanky and negitive then fine, just remeber where we were 5 years ago!

[Jonesey]

Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool, Newcastle or even Portsmouth would have beaten Sunderland yesterday.

I think that's why people are p!ssed off on here. To finish top-4 - or even assure a top-5 finish - we MUST beat the likes of Sunderland, home OR away.

With Zokora and Jenas at the heart of our midfield we will not finish higher than any of those teams this season.

[sebo_sek]

What fucking surprise, you twats are out with the daggers already! A team missing its Captain, its most creative midfielder and anyone who can pass a ball with a left foot, is going to struggle away from home against any team! Lets not forget where we were before Jol took over, 11th, 9th 15th and all that bollocks, get fucking real! The only real issuse is width, when we don't have Lennon, we lack any depth and we need a guy who can deliver on the left, but everyone knows that. So if you wanna get wanky and negitive then fine, just remeber where we were 5 years ago!

Fair enough, but it can't be an ongoing excuse. Look wher we were and all that bollocks. I want to see my team in the CL, not settling for second best. But I doubt that with such an approach we will get anything. Notice the word apprach, not playing.

This was a typical Jol pre-season - I've just realised this.

Last year it was 433 in every game - come the first game we go 442 again (so what was the effing point?). This year we take half of our reserves with us, give Taarabt and Wayne all the time they need to gain some cofidence and introduce a few youngsters (7 out of 7 fellas) and come the first game we go back to last season's set up.

WHAT WAS THE F-ING POINT THEN?

[Chimbo!]

Our midfield is not good enough its flat, creativeless, sloppy, passionless, onefooted shite. Jenas was the only 1 in the quartet that should start against everton. Having said that oyr defence looks good even with the injuries and Robbo looks to have shaken off his poor form. Cant really judge the strikers when they got scraps for service.

[Caribaussie]

Well had a night to sleep on things and try get it out of the system.it certainly ruins your weekend when we lose eh?watching Motd was hard and seeing the re-runs you can start to decipher things.We were poor and seemed to play with no urgency.But it's easy with hindsight to have wisdom.the midfield were poor and the only one who seemed to play good balls forward was steed.The big show(Hudd)should of come on earlier and shifted jenas out wide on the right where his pace would have caused sunderland problems.I thought keane was poor too and seems to get away from the criticism.it was not our strongest team,but we still should of had enough about us to beat them.poor start AGAIN and i hope for the Everton game,we play a more attacking line-up.But we should not start hammering the team as its early doors and we are playing catch up with the top 4,but keep the faith and hopefully we step up to the plate.

[klinsmania72]

if we had the left winger we need - we would have had a differnt game. And why play Gardner insted of Rocha? Gardner must go - soon as possible. And why not let Tarrabt and Routhledge try themselves...?? Stalteri did a very good job - he is a right back you know. Stop picking on the man! We spent more than ever in this summer. And use only one and a half man (Bent). Why! Where is our new prince (Boateng)

Regards,
Even

[Chimbo!]

We should put into perspective though. Its only 1 match worth 3 points. We cant play as badly again and we know what our problems are. It's the 1st game and the doom and gloom merchants are out following the media in criticising the losers and lavishing praise on the winners. Newcastle will faulter this season as will the others. If we learn from our mistakes then theres no prob.

[Jonesey]

Ha ha - love it! "If we beat the big teams then results like this won't matter". Good one.

If we play like we did yesterday too many times we'll be playing in the Championship let alone playing 'the big teams'.

[NeverRed]

The signing of a £16.5m striker to back up our least needy area, instead of signing a great and much needed creative midfielder/ left winger is frankly ridiculous and baffling. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

So what would happen if (god forbid) Berba got injured for the whole season. It wouldn't be such a ridiculous and baffling signing then would it??? We could afford to do it, it's safe to have 4 strikers to cover a 50+ game season, even better if they all offer something different in their play, even better still if they are all prepared to wait their turn, be rested, and earn their place, which they all indicate they are. It's ridiculous and baffling why you think it's so ridiculous and baffling :razz:

[NeverRed]

Exactly! Jol played it safe and unfortunately got some things wrong - but an opening game against newly promoted Sunderland could of gone so many ways. Wait at least until christmas till you start calling for "Jol Out" you bunch of t***s. Call yourself football supporters.

:clap: although even christmas would be completely stupid and ignorant of the last 3 years and the imense strides we made. Rome wasn't built in a day, fergie didn't build a league winning side straight away :duh:

[NeverRed]

:bang: Jol out is not knee jerk

chookz out! :grin:

[NeverRed]

I would hardly call Malbranque an out and out winger. Made some poor decisions/crosses today. Hope he improves for the next game as we have no cover, still hoping for a left winger by the end of transfer window.....

... Anyway hopefully a hick-up, common spurs get ready to demolish everton.

Here is an article written by an evertonian
http://www.caughtoffside.com/2007/07/30/i-have-an-irrational-disgust-for-tottenham/2537.html

Let's demolish them to give him something to hate.

Haha, that article was so funny, pure envy and it tasted sweet to read!!!

On a sidenote, i thought steeeeeeeeed was one of our better players yesterday and showed good battle and clever feet, and was involved in most of the little slick attacking play we saw yesterday. He was certainly more a threat than teemu on the other side

[mil1lion]

Lets not get too caught up on how poor we were yesterday. It was an absolute shit match and should have ended 0-0. Hardly any shots all game and both teams suffered from 1st game of the season syndrome. Im confident we'll bounce back on tuesday as we have such a good record against Everton. It seems to be the away games which we struggle due to lack of balance. At home we get fullbacks forward a lot more and we generally play in the opposition half most of the match. Yesterday there was far too much of a gap between our defence and the forwards. Im not sure the size of the pitch suited us either. It would have been the perfect pitch for Aaron Lennon to play on and Bent would have thrived with so much space to run into. Its easy to say how we should have played now the game is over but in all honesty i think before the match, given the injuries, i think i would have played the same team. It was a team with tried and tested players (except Kaboul) and i think after last seasons 1st game and the way the newcomers struggled was a big reason for this. I dont think Jol was expecting such a poor response from his players. The only thing i have to say against Jol about yesterday is that he didn't manage to get any response at half time. I would have expected a lot more in the 2nd half and yet we managed even less. I have to admit, im a little concerned with the 1st month of this season. With all 3 left backs out for at least another week, King out for another month (which we can cope with as long as Dawson returns), Boeteng needs 2 weeks to get fit again and Lennon out for about 3 weeks. However, we still have enough quality to win our next 2 games. Lets hope we have a few players back for the Man Utd game. As for the left midfield saga thats now in it 3rd season, once Bale settles in we'll at least have a left footed player and to have a right footed player on the left flank wont seem so bad. Im really looking forward to a midfield of Taarabt, Zokora,Boeteng and Lennon. And with Malbranque, Huddlestone, Jenas and Routledge we have a very strong 2nd string midfield. This transfer window was all about getting quality players to add to the squad and the last thing we needed was our established players out injured. It would have been better for us to play last seasons 1st team from the start and slowly introduce the new signings. However with the injuries it seems Jol has to settle with who's available and match fit, so lets cut him some slack. COYS

[Kurtzen]

Irony?

Man City put out a team which had only just been introduced to one another. We put out a midfield who have rumoured to have been introduced 14 months ago. And who looks(repeatedly) like a bunch of strangers?

Cynical it may be....but BMJ has tethered himself to JJ. Not sure we can have one without the other. His assertion that 'JJ provides our tempo'.....says it all really.

The history of JJ in quotes?

2004/05: 'This will be his year'
2005/06: 'This will be his year'
2006/07: 'This will be his year'
2007/08: 'This will be his year'

yawn.

All those/our hopeful, well intentioned platitudes will have vaporised by September. A long winter coming...January should be interesting?

[Caribaussie]

Jenas looked good when playing alongside carrick and always impressed me when he was @ the barcodes.he has stalled since he came to us.why?-i do not know,but on his day he is a quality player.

[luisp]

Fuckin Arsenal did it, with a midfielder scoring the goal (Hleb). A player of his caliber that we don't have and then don't ask why we don't have the 4th spot. Pathetic!!!

[luisp]

Jenas looked good when playing alongside carrick and always impressed me when he was @ the barcodes.he has stalled since he came to us.why?-i do not know,but on his day he is a quality player.

Don't you ask the question why Newcastle sold him,they must've sense something. Hes rubbish,believe me. Or at best an average midfielder.

[Caribaussie]

Don't you ask the question why Newcastle sold him,they must've sense something. Hes rubbish,believe me. Or at best an average midfielder.
Well Wenger was in for him too,so he could not of been that bad.i swear it was jenas who engineered his move from the 'goldfish bowl' up @ Newcastle.

[StuckinPoland]

Yes. We were poor and never ever looked like scoring. But there were times when we had the ball in and around Sunderland's area and failed to shoot. I almost thought I was watching the Arse for a while.

As for the performance, our defenders played well but Rocha should have started the game. As much as I think Stalteri was ok at left back, playing Rocha or Gardner at left back would have given us a left foot out wide. We only use 2/3 of the pitch because we never ever have anyone hugging the left touchline. It's becoming worse than a joke. Sunderland offered very little but, yet again, we were beaten by a team who knew how to play in their position and stay in that position.

In my opinion, our best performance last year was the first
66 minutes at Chelsea in the FA Cup. Then, our midfield was Ghaly, Tainio, Zokora and Lennon. We had creativity AND steel. If our midfield contains Jenas, Tainio and Zokora then it is JENAS who needs to be out wide rather than Tainio. As many have pointed out, Jenas can run forever and has pace, therefore a game far more suited to being out wide than Tainio.

Jenas played too deep. He needs to be further up the pitch to do any damage to the opposition. As of now, he's so deep that he will only do damage to his own team.

Malbranque played well yesterday but always came inside. That's a HUGE problem. Why can't he stick to the touchline? The rest of the midfield played alright but to be honest, it was where Jenas played the game that peeved me the most. That's Jol's fault. Good players in bad positions makes 99% of them look bad. We've got the good players but almost none of them were playing in a role that suited the skills they have.

Ref never gave any decision our way either. But to be honest, if it had ever looked like we really wanted the ball, he may have been kinder to us. We didnt deserve to lose, but we didnt deserve to win either. And that isn't good enough.

Team vs Everton.

Robinson,
Chimbonda, Kaboul, Gardner, Rocha
Malbranque, Tainio, Zokora, Taarabt
Bent, Berbatov

Subs - Cerny, Stalteri, Huddlestone, Jenas, Keane

COYS !!!

[Chimbo!]

Why is it wen eva we lose the jenas bashers come out to play? Fickleness should have a new definition in the dictionary; spurs fans. Like it or notb hes our best central mid. Zokora on the other hand is utter shite, 8.2mill what a rip! Hes good on his day but then again so is Michael Brwon!

[djee]

The truth is that football is alot about character and unfortunately we showed very little yesterday. The game was very disappointing and exposed a number of weaknesses in the side but I firmly believe that even with that same team against Everton we can get a result. Let this defeat act as a huge kick up the backside- losing was always a distinct possiblity away from home against a side eager to establish themselves in the premiership but the manner we lost has to be heavily scrutinised and the players must make ammends.
The great thing about football is that invariably there is always another game just round the corner to get things on track again. Indeed, I dont think Everton will be too pleased about our result yesterday and will aniticipate a huge reaction. I am accused of being overly optimistic at times and although very disappointed about yesterday, think that this may well be the catalyst to drive us forward...

[spursbhoy67]

I thought it was a tricky game to open with although there are worse we could have played. On paper we should win but a draw would have been acceptable and at 0-0 a clean sheet would have been a bonus. But we lose an injury time goal and now fall into the trap of last year - an away loss, a last gasp goal conceded and no clean sheet.

Why did we not secure the point to build some confidence for the weeks ahead? Frustrating!

[SelbYido]

Why is it wen eva we lose the jenas bashers come out to play? Fickleness should have a new definition in the dictionary; spurs fans. Like it or notb hes our best central mid. Zokora on the other hand is utter shite, 8.2mill what a rip! Hes good on his day but then again so is Michael Brwon!

Actually, to be fair to the Jenas-bashers (if I must) they're remarkably consistent. They always say he was crap whether he played well or not. I thought Jenas wasn't bad yesterday & even hit a few accurate long passes which is new for him. Zokora was pretty much the same as most of his other performances for us. Lots of running, some tackling (both good & bad) & not much end product. I don't think he's shite but he does need to improve.

[vigospur]

Anyone who thinks Jenas was to blame for losing yesterday needs to grow up. Try at least 8 of the other 10 as well.

[bigspurs]

The massive response to the last two posts says it all - A f*cking discrace!

Its all very well Jol blaming the team, but he's got to look at his tactical play and flat, unbalanced selection too. Oh well, on to the next game...

[TheDutchMaster]

Anyone who thinks Jenas was to blame for losing yesterday needs to grow up. Try at least 8 of the other 10 as well.

NO PASSION TO WIN!!!

NO PASSION TO COMPETE!!!

If were gonna acheive anything, our players need to come off that pitch after every game knowing they gave everything.

All the players need rockets up there ass's!

They all need to wake up! Open there eyes! Get down to business! and stop all this talk about what a great squad we have.

[Issac]

Truth be spoken, I agree with much of the criticisms expressed in this thread. We do lack creativity in midfield, and Jol does seem to have a problem adjusting tactics midway through a match.

Nonetheless, last season was the first time I've seen Spurs play such beautiful football....since the inception of the league.

There's no reason why we would suddenly fail to reproduce that kind of football, even without Lennon. We still have pretty much the same team, plus a few good signings.

As people have pointed out, we definitely need more grit and determination. Cries of "Jol out" and all are knee-jerk responses no doubt, but the defeat's so painful, some of us need to ventilate. Hyperbole is no fault isn't it?

If I had written this message yesterday, I would have said that we're hopeless, and we're probably going to fight relegation. I think most of us have calmed down by now.

I think whatever we have noticed, Jol must have noticed too. He may have reasons we do not know of, and maybe even reasons we disagree with. But give him the benefit of the doubt; he's not a retard.

If we're not good enough again, come the end of the season - we could reevalute his position. For now, let's see what happens against Everton.

[midgetmanyid]

Why is it wen eva we lose the jenas bashers come out to play? Fickleness should have a new definition in the dictionary; spurs fans. Like it or notb hes our best central mid. Zokora on the other hand is utter shite, 8.2mill what a rip! Hes good on his day but then again so is Michael Brwon!

Chimbo, I agree with you 100%. I dont post much on this website but read it all the time.
Yesterday during the game whenever Jenas crossed the ball and no one was at the end of it, he was every bad name under the sun to some supporters. If we dont score from a corner he takes, again he is every bad name under the sun. Funny thing is when other players do the same you hear no moaning just unlucky Berbs, or unlucky Keane etc.
I even spoke to a fan at half time asking him why he only ever abuses Jenas when he does things wrong and no one else, his reply was he dont like him.
Jenas is just a guy certain so called supporters love to hate and they should be ashamed of themselves!

[tingy98]

i need a allygold or davidmatz writeup...... voices of reason and hopefully can cheer me up!!!

[Vegas]

I think the result is enough of a rocket up the ass - at least I hope so. I can easily see KPB, Huddlestone, Taarabt, and Bale making it into the starting line up very quickly as I think the younger players will start pushing a few of the older ones out on merit. A lot of our answers and ways to success are in the squad but not in yesterdays first team.

It sounds silly but I think a first day clunker like this could be the shake up we've needed.

[Berbamaniac]

So what would happen if (god forbid) Berba got injured for the whole season. It wouldn't be such a ridiculous and baffling signing then would it??? We could afford to do it, it's safe to have 4 strikers to cover a 50+ game season, even better if they all offer something different in their play, even better still if they are all prepared to wait their turn, be rested, and earn their place, which they all indicate they are. It's ridiculous and baffling why you think it's so ridiculous and baffling :razz:


I find your incomprehension of my point baffling and ridiculous. I honestly think I will struggle to find a more stupid point made on here all month. Where do I even start? I am going to try to say my very simple point in many ways for you to understand, so here goes: Bent is a terrific player, it is great that he is with us. But £16.5m on a player that wasn’t a priority? £16.5m?! Did <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Liverpool</st1:place> spend £25m on back-up for Gerrard or Caragher in case they got injured, instead of a much needed striker? I am saying we shouldn’t have done this.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
You suggest a hypothetical situation of Berba getting injured. This, of course, would be a (relative) disaster. It’s a good job then that no where in my comments did I make the point that we didn’t need a good/non-midoesque replacement for Berba in this predicament. Now, if I may, let’s look at something quite different to your point, something that is more real, a non-hypothetical: the facts. Some of these facts are that we have no left winger, and no creative midfielder. What I suggested, as have millions of others, isn’t hard to understand, and nor is it ridiculous. It is that we don’t spend half our resources, or £16.5m, on a striker but instead use that money on a quality midfielder. But oh no, let’s not concentrate or worry on what we don’t have. Let’s make our main priority be to spend all our money on back up for our best places, and ignore what we really, vitally need (and have done foe 2 seasons now!!). Genius. It’s akin to being thirsty and stranded in the desert, and someone offering you either some water, or a new pair of sandals in case your present sandals become damaged. Hmmm, better take the sandals, just in case. Priorities and all that.
<o:p> </o:p>
In short, I am not saying the purchase of a striker is baffling. I am saying that spending that much money on a striker instead of a midfielder is ridiculous and baffling*.
<o:p> </o:p>
*For more on this please see yesterday’s game.

[NeverRed]

I find your incomprehension of my point baffling and ridiculous. I honestly think I will struggle to find a more stupid point made on here all month. Where do I even start? I am going to try to say my very simple point in many ways for you to understand, so here goes: Bent is a terrific player, it is great that he is with us. But £16.5m on a player that wasn’t a priority? £16.5m?! Did <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Liverpool</st1:place> spend £25m on back-up for Gerrard or Caragher in case they got injured, instead of a much needed striker? I am saying we shouldn’t have done this.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
You suggest a hypothetical situation of Berba getting injured. This, of course, would be a (relative) disaster. It’s a good job then that no where in my comments did I make the point that we didn’t need a good/non-midoesque replacement for Berba in this predicament. Now, if I may, let’s look at something quite different to your point, something that is more real, a non-hypothetical: the facts. Some of these facts are that we have no left winger, and no creative midfielder. What I suggested, as have millions of others, isn’t hard to understand, and nor is it ridiculous. It is that we don’t spend half our resources, or £16.5m, on a striker but instead use that money on a quality midfielder. But oh no, let’s not concentrate or worry on what we don’t have. Let’s make our main priority be to spend all our money on back up for our best places, and ignore what we really, vitally need (and have done foe 2 seasons now!!). Genius. It’s akin to being thirsty and stranded in the desert, and someone offering you either some water, or a new pair of sandals in case your present sandals become damaged. Hmmm, better take the sandals, just in case. Priorities and all that.
<o:p></o:p>
In short, I am not saying the purchase of a striker is baffling. I am saying that spending that much money on a striker instead of a midfielder is ridiculous and baffling*.
<o:p></o:p>
*For more on this please see yesterday’s game.

:rofl: coor who got annoyed! Sorry if i hurt your feelings...

We brought taraabt, rose, bale & prince-boateng over the summer - 4 capable lefties and 2 natural ones (maybe 3 because i understand boateng played there alot and is apparently dual footed, we'll see). Basically we have strengthend our left alot - prioritised if you like...

If look at how affected our large squad was with injuries yesterday, while it is a hypothetical point is a very real possibility one of our main strikers may be injured and for a long long time. 4 quality strikers is necessary and with mido the way he was last year and no doubt pushing to move, we did what we needed to do - another one of our priorities! We did the same with our CBs too spending £8m on Kaboul.

With bent being young 23 year old english striker who's been top english scorer in the premier league for the last 2 seasons and obvious talent for 16.5 would be very much a going rate. We had the money to do this and make other signings and i don't doubt we are still in a good position financially and capable of more... I know we missed out on some players but by proudly sticking to principles and not being held to ransom by them (e.g. petrov) - avoiding the stone causing ripples in a pond effect of breaking our wage structure - or their clubs (e.g. sneijder - 20m). We could have bought bent and spent big on other players if they were right for the club, it's policies and it's goals...

The fact that you missed or choose to dismiss these other very creative signings for our left flank blindly, while instead decide to blast the club simply because their most expensive signing of the summer was a needed striker at the going rate (which we are in a situation financially to do, whether he plays every game or not) is erm... both baffling and ridiculous!!! :wink:

[littleAaronlennon]

Naturally despite being immensly disappointed with yesterday's last minute defeat, quite frankly it could be the best thing that could happen to us this season crazy as that may sound providing the players can learn from it. Considering the line up for the game a draw would of been a good result because Stalteri and Gardner should never be at the club let alone anyway near the first team. So bearing that in mind i have to say defensivley we were impressive, unfortunaley however going forward we were a absolute shambles.:evil:

What nobody has pointed out as yet is the reason Berbatov looked so angry and flumexed at being subbed, was despite having a below par performance by his high standards. Is the fact he was so starved of service from the midfield area, he had to alter his game with no natural width he had to try to become the provider drifting out to the right as well as dropping deep that i was disgusted by Jol's descision to actually sub him. Bearing in mind players of his abilties need just one chance and the three points could of been ours. Yet while Jenas was absolutely shocking on his return to the North East, Robbie Keane was also quite abysmal yet as another poster said nobody wants to discuss this.:roll:

Also needless to say the outcome of the game could of been different if we had been awarded the penalty we should of been, when Berbatov got his legs taken away from him when he was just lining up to shoot. So all in all don't be too disheartned gentlemen and please will you pessimists who will seem to have several of stop talking bollocks as the season has just got underway for crying out lound.:bang:

[luisp]

:rofl: coor who got annoyed! Sorry if i hurt your feelings...

We brought taraabt, rose, bale & prince-boateng over the summer - 4 capable lefties and 2 natural ones (maybe 3 because i understand boateng played there alot and is apparently dual footed, we'll see). Basically we have strengthend our left alot - prioritised if you like...

If look at how affected our large squad was with injuries yesterday, while it is a hypothetical point is a very real possibility one of our main strikers may be injured and for a long long time. 4 quality strikers is necessary and with mido the way he was last year and no doubt pushing to move, we did what we needed to do - another one of our priorities!

With bent being young 23 year old english striker who's been top english scorer in the premier league for the last 2 seasons and obvious talent for 16.5 would be very much a going rate. We had the money to do this and make other signings and i don't doubt we are still in a good position financially and capable of more... I know we missed out on some players but by proudly sticking to principles and not being held to ransom by them (e.g. petrov) - avoiding the stone causing ripples in a pond effect of breaking our wage structure - or their clubs (e.g. sneijder - 20m)

The fact that you missed this during the summer and continue to blast the signing of bent as a silly one when it's obviously a good signing (which we are in a situation financially to do) is erm... both baffling and ridiculous!!! :wink:
And where you think you'll go with your fucking wage structure?? 4th spot??

there was a proverb: Cheap on the bread,expensive on the crumbs.

[luisp]

Another point - bring Petrov and fucking Bernd Schneider from Leverkusen, and you'll never would'e talked about Bent. I mean he wouldn't be needed then.

the other 3 could've done the job.

[DannySafer]

Id have to agree with Berbamaniac, no doubt Bent is quality but not the player I would say we needed. We have players in the ranks in Pekhart and Barnard who would have been good cover for the three top strikers we already have. They proved last season that they are potent but as many have mentioned, we cant always depend on them to create and score.

Personally I would have used the Bent money and whatever was left to break the bank to sign Sneijder for the middle and Drenthe on the left, at the beginning of the transfer window when they were available. Thats what we need, clever, creative players. I love BMJ and I would dread him to be hounded out but the fact that he is also Dutch and would probably have been at an advantage with these players really frustrates me. Why cant he see that Jenas and Zokora are like Gerrard and Lampard they ARE good players but not in the same team? Why does he leave him self open to pages of criticism because he doesn't see the urgency on the left wing? I dont buy the idea that we'd be too exposed with two wingers I think thats bullshit. Just watching Petrov, Malouda and even Kapo at Birmingham today underlines that fact. It would give us so many options when attacking and make us unpredictable.

We wont keep world class players like Berbatov happy by signing another strike partner, what he needs is a constant supply from all areas. I think that we will come good this season because we have proved our class but I think 5th is the best we can aim for and thats gonna be a tough fight. I really hope that Taarabt, Bale and the Prince grasp their opportunity this season.

[se26spurs]

We have seem it all before - a superior (ability, technique) Spurs team lose to a side with better motivation and better organisation. A lack of 'drive', a lack of a 'personality' and an anonymous Jenas. Until BMJ starts to kick ass, starts to put the fear of god into some (actually all) of the team, and gets a coherent plan of what he wants, THFC will continue to underachieve despite the superb financial backing and support of Levy.

[NeverRed]

And where you think you'll go with your fucking wage structure?? 4th spot??

there was a proverb: Cheap on the bread,expensive on the crumbs.

Ok, but look at chelsea with their loyalty, someone signs on a new high wage and their captain and their midfield engine automatically demand the same or consider looking elsewhere.

We do want that top mentality and desire... I personally would prefer players who come because they have the desire to play for our club (bent is the perfect example) rather then financial reasons - look where it takes many teams (reading for example last year) with players of half the talent.

We probs differ on this, but i'm actually happy we don't smash our wage structure and operate like a sound business while bringing in young extremely talented players and giving them a chance to blossom.

I love our policies, and 5th again while they blossom even more would be fine by me - of course we shouldn't be aiming for that, the club aims to win each game one by one and move on to the next and do the same, thats the approach we undoubtedly take and all the teams that go on to win things take too...

In the past few years we've built amazingly solid foundations and it's a project built from the ground up, slowly and strongly, to ensure it lasts for time... why not support our growth and all it time to develop rather then place barriers and falsified failings (like not making 4th) in the way.

I just wish a few more fans would sit back and really take a look at the giant strides made in past 3 years, and steps taken for the future, rather then get so impatient and demanding... and a lot of people after one fucking game into the new season!!! :shrug:

[spursFanKC]

Would like to see routledge/tanio/malbranque/tarrabat midfield against Everton with berbatov and bent as out forwards. Have huddlestone on bench to bring in for CM duties if needed. Not sure about defence but would like to see Dawson and Bale back in if possible. To me we need routlegde and tarrabat involved somewhere to provide that spark as our last midfield doesn;t quite have it.

[luisp]

Ok, but look at chelsea with their loyalty, someone signs on a new high wage and their captain and their midfield engine automatically demand the same or consider looking elsewhere.

We do want that top mentality and desire... I personally would prefer players who come because they have the desire to play for our club (bent is the perfect example) rather then financial reasons - look where it takes many teams (reading for example last year) with players of half the talent.

We probs differ on this, but i'm actually happy we don't smash our wage structure and operate like a sound business while bringing in young extremely talented players and giving them a chance to blossom.

I love our policies, and 5th again while they blossom even more would be fine by me - of course we shouldn't be aiming for that, the club aims to win each game one by one and move on to the next and do the same, thats the approach we undoubtedly take and all the teams that go on to win things take too...

In the past few years we've built amazingly solid foundations and it's a project built from the ground up, slowly and strongly, to ensure it lasts for time... why not support our growth and all it time to develop rather then place barriers and falsified failings (like not making 4th) in the way.
Don't u think it will be justified to 'Give a little bit more in wages' and bring players that might take you to the CL. And the money you'll get from the CL will completely cover your expenses for wages that you gave to your players.?

[NeverRed]

yeah possibly, i mean i'd agree with that within reason...

It's worth reminding that our club hasn't just bought in solid players and coaching staff but a boardroom / backroom of quality physios and directors. They'd be aware of finances and wage structures better then any of us and these days in them and in tottenham i trust.

We all should really be able to agree that that every move we make, whatever department thats in, we've got better and stronger and that much closer to being a conquering great club.

spurs till i die and b4 i do they will make me very happy, if it doesn't quite happen this season i won't be spitting my dummy out the pram like some because i can smell it, almost taste it even! :beer:

COYS

[mawspurs]

Don't u think it will be justified to 'Give a little bit more in wages' and bring players that might take you to the CL. And the money you'll get from the CL will completely cover your expenses for wages that you gave to your players.?

Possibly but isn't that the trap that Leeds fell into. Admittedly they fell into debt to finance the purchasing of the players but they gambled that doing so would keep them in a CL spot each season and thus finance both repayment the purchase loans and the players wages. It didn't pay off long term and look at them now.

[luisp]

Possibly but isn't that the trap that Leeds fell into. Admittedly they fell into debt to finance the purchasing of the players but they gambled that doing so would keep them in a CL spot each season and thus finance both repayment the purchase loans and the players wages. It didn't pay off long term and look at them now.
yeah but i mean u dont have to give every player better wages. Thats up to the management. But if they're no risks there are no rewards in it.?

[cabinfever]

Bad day but it can happen to everyone.

Shocking result for United today too 0 - 0 at Home.

[NeverRed]

Bad day but it can happen to everyone.

Shocking result for United today too 0 - 0 at Home.

to a team of players on a lot less money and with less talent then us... oh yeah it's only one game into the season!!! :wink:

[mil1lion]

Why do people seem to think its simple to take the 16.5 million we spent on Bent and sign the likes of Sneijder or Drenthe instead? Do people honestly think these players will play for a club in the UEFA cup rather than one in the champs league. Drenthe for spurs? Barca, Chelsea and Real Madrid wanted him for god sake. He's gone to Real Madrid (champs of spain) over spurs, what a surprise. Nani went to Man Utd (champs of england) and Sneijder will remain at Ajax and play champions league footy and challenge for the title. Tottenham have to buy young talent and develop them into world class players. It will take time and i know it sucks that we didn't build for the future 5 years ago but thats the way it is. The fact is, forwards often cost a lot more then creative midfielders and the world class creative midfielder will often sign for title contenders. Our best hope is the young pool of talent we have here now. We are a team for the future and any success we get now will be a great bonus. We must finish in the top 6 for sure but we have time on our side. I want success now as much as anyone but at least we have a future to look forward to now which we didn't have before Jol took over. If we could sign another Ginola on the left then i'd be delighted but players like that are few and far between and rarely available. Then when they are available, everyone wants them. Its not as easy as playing Championship Manager on PC.

[Russ1981]

Bent will be worth every penny when he bangs in 20 plus this season. Hope he gets a good run in the RIGHT settled team. Jol will find the right mix. Bring on Tues!

[cabinfever]

to a team of players on a lot less money and with less talent then us... oh yeah it's only one game into the season!!! :wink:

Exactly my point. United in the same F""ked up position and I'm sure their fans are just as upset as we are.

Anyway I'm hoping for a very, very, VERY big improvement in our next two games.

[vigospur]

yeah possibly, i mean i'd agree with that within reason...

It's worth reminding that our club hasn't just bought in solid players and coaching staff but a boardroom / backroom of quality physios and directors.
COYS

Quality physios maybe. Only an innocent question but why so many bloody injuries?

[NeverRed]

Why do people seem to think its simple to take the 16.5 million we spent on Bent and sign the likes of Sneijder or Drenthe instead? Do people honestly think these players will play for a club in the UEFA cup rather than one in the champs league. Drenthe for spurs? Barca, Chelsea and Real Madrid wanted him for god sake. He's gone to Real Madrid (champs of spain) over spurs, what a surprise. Nani went to Man Utd (champs of england) and Sneijder will remain at Ajax and play champions league footy and challenge for the title. Tottenham have to buy young talent and develop them into world class players. It will take time and i know it sucks that we didn't build for the future 5 years ago but thats the way it is. The fact is, forwards often cost a lot more then creative midfielders and the world class creative midfielder will often sign for title contenders. Our best hope is the young pool of talent we have here now. We are a team for the future and any success we get now will be a great bonus. We must finish in the top 6 for sure but we have time on our side. I want success now as much as anyone but at least we have a future to look forward to now which we didn't have before Jol took over. If we could sign another Ginola on the left then i'd be delighted but players like that are few and far between and rarely available. Then when they are available, everyone wants them. Its not as easy as playing Championship Manager on PC.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[NeverRed]

Quality physios maybe. Only an innocent question but why so many bloody injuries?

It's a bit of a mystery, i mean some new signings didn't train as much during the summer due to coming in late and they are taking a few weeks to build up fitness...

Lennon & King and LYP we knew about...

Dawson got unlucky the game b4 the kick off..

BAE i haven't got a clue...

Maybe the only valid explanation is just that it's part of the parcel of football... but i wouldn't blame our physio's, Dr Charlotte came in very highly commended and we got in that British olympic team physio aswell which sounded like a top in the field signing too. Sometime's it's just sods law I guess :shrug:

[tevezito]

I think I will. :-)

Unrealistic to get 18 points from the promoted teams? Maybe your expectations are unrealistic. Let's look at last year's results.

VS. the three newly promoted teams:
Manchester United - 16 points
Chelsea - 16 points
Liverpool - 16 points
Arsenal - 15 points
Spurs - 10 points

The top 4 don't have too much trouble with the promoted teams. If we hope to put Spurs in their company, we must do better than only winning half the games against these teams. Maybe we won't win every single game, but we must go into every game expecting to win. Right now, we're stuck in this losing mindset, and we (the fans), the players, and the coach need to kick this negative thinking. We're the mighty Tottenham Hotspur, and expecting 5 wins against 3 Championship teams isn't unrealistic, it's absolutely necessary to make the Champions League.

Thanks for shouting at me so politely :wink:

But your statistics back up my point that 18 points against the three promoted sides is unrealistic. I do agree with you that we should be doing better than ten however, and I believe we will.

Some of the midfield slating on here has been ridiculous. Boateng isn't match fit, Routledge had the whole pre-season to find form and confidence but didn't and Taarabt still hasn't learnt to pass the ball to teammates and is tactically immature so why would he be a better option than Zokora or Jenas?

I chose Reading in my tongue in cheek 'Loser Talk' because last season they finished close to a UEFA cup place as Sunderland may well do this season. I was being churlish but trying to put things in perspective at the same time.

Remember everyone last year we lost at home to Everton against ten men so a draw will be an improvement and a win a fantastic result. Bring them on, with the same midfield and 38 000 yids cheering us on to victory.

[chookz]

:bang:

chookz out! :grin:

Oi relax dude I was just kidding about the Jol out stuff.

[tingy98]

Actually, to be fair to the Jenas-bashers (if I must) they're remarkably consistent. They always say he was crap whether he played well or not. I thought Jenas wasn't bad yesterday & even hit a few accurate long passes which is new for him. Zokora was pretty much the same as most of his other performances for us. Lots of running, some tackling (both good & bad) & not much end product. I don't think he's shite but he does need to improve.

my problem with jj is that he dithers and faff's around with the ball too much.... there is no quick pass.... he takes too many touches and then gets closed down and marginally gets away with it most the time!!

the other issue is that he's becoming an "untouchable" never being dropped despite being poor.... I remember Zokora being dropped last season when playing rubbish!!

my main issue is that he should never be anywhere never a cornerkick.... no threat/pace/or wip and it rarely gets past the first defender! I think he is a good player but there's a time when Jol should give others an opportunity!!

JJ being JJ would then do nothing for 90 mins and score the winner in the 92nd min and it's justified his place in the team when i'm pretty certain we would of done a lot better with the likes of Taarabt playing in his position!! Jol would then sing his praises which fcuks me off massively!!

[NeverRed]

Oi relax dude I was just kidding about the Jol out stuff.

lol yeah sorry if that seemed harsh, i was kidding to hence the smiley!

[Malteser]

The midfield was certainly the issue on Saturday. However the problem is not Zakora. It's Jenas & Tanio. Zak's job is win the ball back primarily but the other 3 midfielders need to provide service to the front men! Malbranque is fine but the other 2 do not have the imagination and skill required. For me, last year it was clear that when Lennon is not on the field, we have a problem! Jol should have had Routledge play on the right instead of TT, if he really wanted to go for the 3 points!! He is not brave enough..Sunderland were clearly very nervous in the first 45mins, and we did not take advantage of this .. CAUSE WE WERE UNABLE TO CREATE ONE DECENT OPPORTUNITY!!

[luisp]

The midfield was certainly the issue on Saturday. However the problem is not Zakora. It's Jenas & Tanio. Zak's job is win the ball back primarily but the other 3 midfielders need to provide service to the front men! Malbranque is fine but the other 2 do not have the imagination and skill required. For me, last year it was clear that when Lennon is not on the field, we have a problem! Jol should have had Routledge play on the right instead of TT, if he really wanted to go for the 3 points!! He is not brave enough..Sunderland were clearly very nervous in the first 45mins, and we did not take advantage of this .. CAUSE WE WERE UNABLE TO CREATE ONE DECENT OPPORTUNITY!!
Absolutely!

[macspurs]

We had a patched up defence and a midfield devoid of ideas. How familiar !
The greatest strike force in the prem isn't worth having if there is no supply to them. I hope we can get some width soon. Sunderland didn't really do that much in an attacking sense, but they got back well and closed down our midfield. All our attacking play from midfield was going through the middle and it was easy pickings for players who were in the championship last season.
Get it wide. Get it to the line. When the cross comes in our top drawer forwards will be waiting in the box and it gives the midfield a chance to push up and support. Am I being to simple ?
I know we haven't signed that LW that we all craved, but surely it is the one position where we could take a little gamble, being as we are inaffectual there anyway.
Throw in Taarabt. For that matter blood Rose early. Couldn't do much worse if we're not going to buy anyone.

[DannySafer]

Why do people seem to think its simple to take the 16.5 million we spent on Bent and sign the likes of Sneijder or Drenthe instead? Do people honestly think these players will play for a club in the UEFA cup rather than one in the champs league. Drenthe for spurs? Barca, Chelsea and Real Madrid wanted him for god sake. He's gone to Real Madrid (champs of spain) over spurs, what a surprise. Nani went to Man Utd (champs of england) and Sneijder will remain at Ajax and play champions league footy and challenge for the title. Tottenham have to buy young talent and develop them into world class players. It will take time and i know it sucks that we didn't build for the future 5 years ago but thats the way it is. The fact is, forwards often cost a lot more then creative midfielders and the world class creative midfielder will often sign for title contenders. Our best hope is the young pool of talent we have here now. We are a team for the future and any success we get now will be a great bonus. We must finish in the top 6 for sure but we have time on our side. I want success now as much as anyone but at least we have a future to look forward to now which we didn't have before Jol took over. If we could sign another Ginola on the left then i'd be delighted but players like that are few and far between and rarely available. Then when they are available, everyone wants them. Its not as easy as playing Championship Manager on PC.

Drenthe wasn't in the public eye and certainly not attracting the likes of Madrid until the recent championships which is exactly the point I made if you could understand what you were reading. If I said Kaka then you would have had a point. Sneijder was desperate to leave Holland until no fees could be agreed so he stays until next season at least. The likes of Man Utd you are so in awe of were beaten to two top talents in Berbatov and Bale if you care to remember. Next time you open your trap get your facts right, not everyone plays championship manager.

[Coyboy]

good post neverred. I can't believe the negativity following saturday. I was pissed off, especially after getting up at 7.30 to listen to it only to have to go into work for a bit and come back to see that had scored but it's the first game of the fucking season not a make or break game. And just to reply to someone who thought I was contradicting myself when I said that our midfield four on saturday are very good players but not as a quartet- what I meant was they don't work together because there is no width and little creativity.

They are all good at what they do but there is no one there to break down a solid defense with blistering pace, skill or penetrating passes- attributes we know or hope the soon to be introduced Boateng, Taarabt, Rose and Bale- not to mention Lennon and the prospect of Huddlestone. Smile people.

[luisp]

i think a midfield of Lennon,Zokora,Boateng and Malbranque/Taarabt wouldn't be out of the question but Bale has to play and sort out the left wing, or they should buy someone quality to sort it out then.Otherwise it will be a lost cause, its gonna be like playing with 75% of your potential. And then it will be 5 place at best.

[luisp]

Berbs and Bent as strikers. Keane as a sub. Bent can fight more for the ball.

Sell Mido, Ghaly get the money from there and buy a left winger.

[nicko]

keep our heads for tuesdays game i feel a real win on the cards to prove the doubters

[2bearis2do]

LEFT MIDFIELDER
LEFT FOOTED
PLAYER
BALANCE
PLEAAASEEEEEEE.

Or another season of frustration?
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Also have to agree, though I've hung in there for months, that our midfield, though full of potential is currently short on quality. You can't do well with 4 great strikers and no decent support.

OK, Steeed, Zok, JJ, Lennon, TT Hudd....

Good but not THAT good....


And the Sunderland midfield? recognise any names there?! KR maybe, but unless you've been following Championship footy for a season or two, they are frankly anon. And we still got beat.
Hummmmmm

[nicko]

coyboy nice post!:):):)

[SelbYido]

my problem with jj is that he dithers and faff's around with the ball too much.... there is no quick pass.... he takes too many touches and then gets closed down and marginally gets away with it most the time!!

the other issue is that he's becoming an "untouchable" never being dropped despite being poor.... I remember Zokora being dropped last season when playing rubbish!!

my main issue is that he should never be anywhere never a cornerkick.... no threat/pace/or wip and it rarely gets past the first defender! I think he is a good player but there's a time when Jol should give others an opportunity!!

JJ being JJ would then do nothing for 90 mins and score the winner in the 92nd min and it's justified his place in the team when i'm pretty certain we would of done a lot better with the likes of Taarabt playing in his position!! Jol would then sing his praises which fcuks me off massively!!

From what you say here I wouldn't class you as a Jenas-basher especially as you at least make the effort to explain why you find him frustrating, that's fair enough. It just annoys me that when the team don't perform, its inevitable that Jenas will come in for far more stick than other players regardless of how he played. For example I thought Berbatov & Chimbonda were both worse than Jenas yesterday but with Berbatov most people were queueing up to make excuses - "No service, frustrated by his team mates..." etc. but when it comes to Jenas its because he's just shit. Berbatov's great but great player sometimes play really badly.

I think sometimes with Jenas people have already made up there minds so they concentrate on spotting his mistakes in order to vindicate their attitude & ignore it when he does something positive, whereas others get a far easier ride.

I disagree on Taarabt though. He's a great young player with massive potential but if he'd played in Jenas' position we'd have more than likely took a mauling because he lacks the defensive quality to compete as a CM in a flat four. If we'd played a diamond or a 5 man midfield, fair enough. He may cut it as a floating AM coming in from one wing or the other. Also it would have been nice to see him as an impact sub as I believe we wil in the coming months. We may find that Boateng has the necessary balance between steel & guile but at the moment Jenas is our best option in that position.

[powerspurs]

<TABLE class=tborder id=post557057 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>nav007_2000 - Yesterday, 10:32 PM </TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1>For me the following players will not get us into a champions league position.
1) Gardner
2) Jenas
3) Zakora
4) Stalteri


Our midfield is a load of bollox. They can't win a ball, they can't create a chance for the strikers and they can't keep possesion. No wonder Berbatov gets p*ssed all the time.


What we need is a ball winner in central mid and a creative midfielder and a left winger.

I am unsure what KPB's best position is but i have been told that he is very creative, had the most assists in Germans league last season. Therefore my team to start against everton is

Robbo
Bale(if fit)/rocha Dawson Kaboul Chimbonda
Taraabt Huddlestone Boateng Maalbranque
Bent Berbatov
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And if mj somehow picks the exact same team which you have proposed to play against everton and we lose, then what? who will you blame? yourself? mj? jenas and zoko (even though they didn't play). We have been in this situation before and there is definitely something lacking when jj is not playing. From your team selection I see you have dropped jj and zoko but you have included chimbo, berbatov and steed. Those three were possibly the biggest disapointments for me against sunderland. Chimbo and berba were a disgrace to say the least: no heart, no fighting spirit, no extra effort, no will to win. steed tried a bit harder but wasted so many good moves, especially in the first half. You say our midfield cannot win a ball: do you honestly think hudd will win many balls? The few minutes he was on the pitch he lost more balls than jj did during the full 90 mins. I'm sorry but spurs fans need to stop with this blaming mentality whenever we lose. If you want to blame, then blame everyone that played badly, not just the usual suspects ala jj, zokora and gardner.

[billnick]

After that defeat I thought it couldn't get any worse. Then I read some of the utter crap written on here.

[no4skin]

just like to say to BMJ audere est facere...give the kids a chance boss,if there good enough there old enough...
to dare is to do
yid army

[NayimsSocks]

1 game and its the end of the world.
Of all the games the top teams faced we probably had the toughest.
We have quality all over the park but its gonna take a while to bed them all in.
A few key players out in defence.
Kaboul is quality. Great signing.
Stop all this complaining and get behind the team.
The midfield does look a bit light but its early doors.
We don't really need to buy anyone else otherwise it upsets the balance of the team even more. Wait until Jan. Please!
37 left to win!
COYS!

[ShelfSide18]

Just watched an old football years programme. Arsenal lost 1 nil to Sunderland first game of the season in 2000/01, went on to finish in the top 4. My point concluded.

There's 37 games left. On another day we might have snatched 3 points yesterday.

Again the idiots who post here have depressed me more than the actual performance.

[stevespurs]

Tainio, JJ and Zoko are all a little too defensive or lacking that attacking productivity. Two out of the three would be ok with one on the bench. Without Lennon, Taraabt could have been the answer.

[tingy98]

From what you say here I wouldn't class you as a Jenas-basher especially as you at least make the effort to explain why you find him frustrating, that's fair enough. It just annoys me that when the team don't perform, its inevitable that Jenas will come in for far more stick than other players regardless of how he played. For example I thought Berbatov & Chimbonda were both worse than Jenas yesterday but with Berbatov most people were queueing up to make excuses - "No service, frustrated by his team mates..." etc. but when it comes to Jenas its because he's just shit. Berbatov's great but great player sometimes play really badly.

I think sometimes with Jenas people have already made up there minds so they concentrate on spotting his mistakes in order to vindicate their attitude & ignore it when he does something positive, whereas others get a far easier ride.

I disagree on Taarabt though. He's a great young player with massive potential but if he'd played in Jenas' position we'd have more than likely took a mauling because he lacks the defensive quality to compete as a CM in a flat four. If we'd played a diamond or a 5 man midfield, fair enough. He may cut it as a floating AM coming in from one wing or the other. Also it would have been nice to see him as an impact sub as I believe we wil in the coming months. We may find that Boateng has the necessary balance between steel & guile but at the moment Jenas is our best option in that position.

I think with Berbatov it's a case of a timely reminder that if you don't perform.... you'll get subbed!! He's been lacking all pre-season despite all his goals - slow/not interested/not committed in 50/50!! Jol himself admitted Berbs is a slow starter.... I would have gone with form in pre-season.... Bent/Keane with at least Taarabt on the bench if not starting....

I'm starting to think that having the 4 strikers is going to be a massive problem - Jol's going to have to keep them all happy and that means 2 on the bench and one less creative player/option in midfield!! Not sure if he has the balls to drop- say Defoe/Berbs from the bench for some width.

Also with Taarabt.... Despite looking lightweight, you'll be surprised - he can shield the ball well and track back a bit from what i've seem!!

I'll be happier if we eventually played something like:
steed - jj - zokora/teemu - taarabt against everton...
teemu has just come back from injury and Jol simply won't drop jj!

i'm going to say something very controversial that i thought i'd never say.... but if only JJ was knocked out for a couple of months!! I'm so confident that we've got enough quality to cover and improve on him - the youngsters will step up and seize the opportunity!!

[S17PUR]

I think I posted this earlier in the thread but Zokora was signed as a defensive midfielder! He wasn't signed for his creativity, or goal scoring ability and personally I can't believe some of the criticism he's recieved. He was one of our better performers on Saturday doing his job reasonably well and it isn't his fault that none of Jenas, Tainio or Malbranque (though he was the best of the three) could create anything for the front players. I fail to see what Tainio offers, whenever he's in the line-up its apparent that we're going to play negatively. Both him and Jenas were extremely poor against Sunderland (as were a lot of players I know), but whereas I think Tainio has limited talent, I do still hold a miniscule amount of hope that Jenas might flourish into something better than the average midfielder that he is now. In my opinion he'd benefit from some time on the bench as his position is too comfortable and it shows in his play.

[tony0379]

here bloody here matey

[theoldguy]

The pundits have spoken and the concensus is that our midfield is naff primarily Jenas and Zokora. I cannot disagree especially concerning Jenas who hasn't had a good match in two years. Is Martin Jol sucked in by Jenas's arrogance in talking like a world class player? Frankly I'd rather have the honest endeavours of Danny Murphy. But realistically I think it is time for Tommy Huddlestone to be given a long enough run to prove he is our director of operations from the midfield (or not!). Also a tandem of Boateng/Taarabt would at least provide energy in the midfield even though neither is proven at Premiership level. Other than that do I expect the remainder of the team to be as inept as yesterday? No, I don't. So bring on Everton for our first win of the many to follow. As our injured players return to the fold we can then move on with added confidence.

[oultima]

Let's be honest, Jol just can't seems to function with his tactics & man management. How long have we been debting on his players selections on the day? putting tainio on the right??? for god sake, do we really think routledge was dat poor to the that extend? during the sunderland match frankly i didn't even see a run by tainio. he's absolutely invisible down the right. Routledge, ppl have u all forgotten how he was as a player before we bought him? surely he is more than capable of replacing lennon when hes not around. Jermain Jenas, by far the worst player on the pitch, passing was dirt poor, no vision as a midfielder, totally lost in the middle of the park. There is no reason to say we lost players thru injuries, look at man united, player by player stats i really believe we have better players among the top teams, have u all imagine what will it be if our team is manage by fergie>? do u think we will even drew at the stadium of light?

Pls jol, show us what u are capable of against everton, n pls stop puttin all ur jenas shit n "speedy" tainio, it just won't work. Feeling gutted ..:bang: :bang: :bang:

[Spurz]

I hope we dont say look at manure they drew at home so we arent so bad. Reading's keeper played a blinder yesterday and manure practically peppered their goal with no end product. They created alot of chances but did not have that bit of luck. Arsescums almost lost their game but got a penalty and a late goal. Still they created a whole host of chances and Fulham's keeper was outstanding. The point is the top 4 sides do lose the occasional game but even when they do, they dominate the game and will have chances to score.

We created no chance at all, looked so ordinary that Sunderland could have put 11 menniquins out there and we will still be clueless. Jol better open his eyes and mouth and wake those highly paid loafers up.

[jenko]

I hope Jol plays the exact same team (except including daws) against Everton and we get a win to shut all you negative arseholes up!

we had a shit day - Deal with it!

[kc1669]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Very well written and spot on :hump::hump::hump:

I was really disappointed too that we didn't play well against Sunderland..........but credits have to be given to Sunderland. I don't think they will be losing much game at home this season.

As for Martin Jol.........at least he does admit we played poorly especially the midfielders (not being ceative enough). I'm sure lesson will be learnt from this game.

I'm always not comfortable when we doesn't lose at least a game during pre-season and I hope this lost to a promoted team will fire up the whole team and face the reality.

May this be a blessing in disguise.........Hope to see a different kind of spirit, passion and desire to win mentality at White Hart Lane on Tuesday....COYS!!!!!!!!!

[kc1669]

Why do people seem to think its simple to take the 16.5 million we spent on Bent and sign the likes of Sneijder or Drenthe instead? Do people honestly think these players will play for a club in the UEFA cup rather than one in the champs league. Drenthe for spurs? Barca, Chelsea and Real Madrid wanted him for god sake. He's gone to Real Madrid (champs of spain) over spurs, what a surprise. Nani went to Man Utd (champs of england) and Sneijder will remain at Ajax and play champions league footy and challenge for the title. Tottenham have to buy young talent and develop them into world class players. It will take time and i know it sucks that we didn't build for the future 5 years ago but thats the way it is. The fact is, forwards often cost a lot more then creative midfielders and the world class creative midfielder will often sign for title contenders. Our best hope is the young pool of talent we have here now. We are a team for the future and any success we get now will be a great bonus. We must finish in the top 6 for sure but we have time on our side. I want success now as much as anyone but at least we have a future to look forward to now which we didn't have before Jol took over. If we could sign another Ginola on the left then i'd be delighted but players like that are few and far between and rarely available. Then when they are available, everyone wants them. Its not as easy as playing Championship Manager on PC.

Very well written and spot on :hump::hump::hump:

I was really disappointed too that we didn't play well against Sunderland..........but credits have to be given to Sunderland. I don't think they will be losing much game at home this season.

As for Martin Jol.........at least he does admit we played poorly especially the midfielders (not being creative enough). I'm sure lesson will be learned from this game.

I'm always not comfortable when we doesn't lose at least a game during pre-season and I hope this lost to a promoted team will fire up the whole team and face the reality.

May this be a blessing in disguise.........Hope to see a different kind of spirit, passion and desire to win mentality at White Hart Lane on Tuesday....COYS!!!!!!!!!

[parj]

to be honest we would have won the game if martin jol had the balls to say "im gonna do something different this season away from home, and thats to play with width!"............ok, so i can carry on dreaming that will happen one day, but for anyone who says malbranque had a good game, what did he do that made him have a good game? i seen the match live and the highlights and all he did was cut in take extra touches and invite pressure.........so of course he had to battle to keep the ball cos he turns into danger!!!!!

As for Tainio, as much as think the guy is a great asset to our squad its unfair to make him start as a left winger when there is no width on the right........... it puts pressure on him to create when he is better supporting the attacking and protecting the defence.

Zokora and jenas well they might as well as had their left foot tied to their right foot because the only options they had to pass to were 4 players down the middle who were being marked by another 4 players so as you can imagine it was quite crowded!

Even if its only one winger that plays, one winger has to play........ there has to be an outlet, otherwise we get a bollox perfornamce like we did against sunderland!

[gaganelov]

One can't learn to be creative. Hard work doesn't help in this case. Creativity is a Lord's gift. And it is obvious our midfielders can run, but can't create. Jol must give chance to the youngsters that we have. Amen.

[Boon]

While it is extremely difficult to take in the defeat, especially when their goal was scored in the dying seconds of injury time, I believe that it will have its upside and that is that it is an early wake up call to Jol and the team that we are not an invincible team and from now onwards, Jol will have to push his players to the limit and ensure that it will never happen again. The defeat may well be a blessing in disguise which have shocked the the whole team out of their complacency. I am sure that you will find a different Spurs team when we play Everton at home.

[alamo]

Nothing much changes on this site. Some of you don't deserve to be called fans and need to do some serious growing up. I'm as disappointed as everyone by our abject performance but it is one game only. We'll play as badly again this season and we'll also have some absolute blinders. But all this knee jerk "Jol out, bad man manager, tactically inept" bluster is quite frankly pathetic. We have achieved more these past few seasons than in many years and we will do well again this one. Have patience, chill out and stop with the idiotic behaviour

[Shirtfront]

Well said. If I didn't know any better, this game could have been straight out of last season matches (except Kaboul switched with Dawson). Jol's tactics were the same, and he started/subbed the same players at the same time in the same place as he did last season.

I still don't understand the Zokora/Jenas partnership. TIME WILL NOT MAKE THIS PARTNERSHIP WORK! They're too similar as players. They both lack creativity, and can't assert themselves when needed. Everyone complained about them last year, but somehow we've all convinced ourselves that their problems from last year would magically fix themselves over the summer. Well, as we saw today, it's not working.
Huddlestone needs to play, and he's not gonna fucking do anything by entering the game in the 87th minute! Bench Jenas and Zokora, and start Hudd and Taarabt. We need someone creating something. Maybe they can do some good, but we'll never know until Jol finally decides to give them some playing time.

I agree with your broader point (ie the side was destined for this performance with the midfield/bench available), but I don't agree that Zokora and Jenas cannot work in a midfield together. I think away from home, they can be a great partnership to provide solidity and drive - PROVIDED they have creative players either side of them. Malbranque is probably neutral in this regard (reasonably creative, but still quite hard working), although far from ideal. But to have Tainio, Zokora and Jenas in the same midfield WITH Malbranque is simply too defensive other than in exceptional cases (eg away in europe holding onto a 2-0 lead etc).

I don't really mind Jol starting with it for the first game of the season against an opposition relying on hard work and physicality. Just to take the sting out of the game and stay solid for the first hour. To have a look, so to speak, without being shot. But he needed to have options on the bench to come on when it the likely outcome became obvious; ie that they really weren't likely to hurt us in open play and were looking to stifle the game and we lacked the cutting edge to open them up.

With that in mind there was simply no justification for four strikers and four central midfielders in the squad. Once Jol picked that starting XI he had to to have a couple of live wires on the bench to stretch the game if necessary. After all, even if one of the starting midfielders got injured, any of the other three could have moved centrally to cover.

With that in mind Taraabt and Routledge should have been on the bench. If not then - when?

I love BMJ and I think he'll learn from this. I suspect there will be a much more attacking side at the Lane.

As with last season, a couple of players coming back in the next few weeks (Lennon, Bale) will help tremendously.

And look at the bright side - maybe now the club will push the boat out and buy a more creative midfielder before the window shuts?

[sunnydelight786]

I pray to god that i am proved wrong and to be made to look like a tit by Jol but i personally feel as a manager he has taken the club as far as he can. He's had 2 full season's in charge with the strongest squad of players i can ever remember (been a fan for over 27 years) but our soft underbelly is still there. Like always when we go away from home against a side who battles we crumble. He can blame the players as much as he like's but 9 of the 11 were signed with his blessing. That whole midifeld were Jol players and they failed us. Jol aswell as Commoli failed us this and last summer by NOT bringing in a natural left winger and creative midfielded. Did we really need Bent for £16.5m??? Dont get me wrong, i'm sure Bent will score 15+ goals this season but so would have Defoe, Keane and Berby. We have an outstanding youngster in Pekhart who could have done a job as 4th choice aswell as Barny. That £16.5m could have been spent elsewhere.

Before everyone starts hurling abuse at me look at the examples of Chelsea and Liverpool set 3 years back. Chelsea knew that Ranieri had taken the club as far as he could. They brought in a superior manager and look at them now. Do you think Chelsea would have been as good as they are with Ranieri still in charge? Dito for Liverpool with Houlier too. Jol is a very nice man and a good manager/coach but ultimately i dont think he's good enough to take us the next step up.

Please stop this BS about Sunderland are a good team blah blah blah. Fact is if you want to break into the top 4 you have to put teams like this to the sword. It was imperative that we started on the right foot but like last season got humbled by a far inferior team on the opening day. I ask you, how many of Sunderland's team would make OUR SQUAD let alone strongest team.....? Exactly, only 1.

The time for change was at the end of last season, NOT NOW. We got MJ for this season hence i shall back him aswell as the players 100% but i feel it will be another season of underachievement. That could change if we get a LW in and a playmaker but i doubt that's going to happen now!

I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone here, as i said it's ONLY my opinion.

[Shirtfront]

I think that replacing a midfielder with a striker is a tactical error. Should have gone for the draw rather than chase the win.

Given your name, I assume that is repleat with irony?

[Timspurs]

A strikeforce that drew a big fat blank saturday!!!!
No movement up front and no service and width from the midfielders....enough said.
Only Robinson,Kaboul and Malbranque deserve to keep there place against Everton.
Seems Jol will keep the other 2 strikers on the bench at all times with Cerny and a defender,hence only gives us 1 midfield option to change things around!
Come on Jol, sort it out against Everton.We need flair and creativity from our midfielders and penetration,pace and movement from our so called best strike force in the premiership.
If Dawson is still injured I'd rather see Rocha partner Kaboul.
COYS

[Shirtfront]

I can understand your first para but where do you get your last sentence from? Today's starting line up won't beat Everton either.
Sorry to say it but MJ seems to be developing a mindset where flair and talent are actually likely to stop players getting in the team. Today's selection was hopeless. A totally pedestrian midfield (although decent players in their own right) so no service to the front two. If that is the way he wants to play then Bent needs to start up front - he will make far more of lost causes then Berbatov or Keane.

Exactly. The problem isn't the players individually, but the combination. If he wants to sit back and stay solid then hit on the break away from home, rather than attack and create, then fine. But then that cries out for Huddlestone's range of passing (his mobility won't matter) and Bent chasing balls over the top (alone if necessary). Don't play four midfielders (well, at least 3) who are not creative and two strikers who need quick tight passing and movement to link play and create holes in order to score.

It was a case of picking the best XI, not the best team.

Hopefully, lesson learned.

[berbie38]

i can not believe with all the money we have spent this summer we had no creative players in our midfield saturday(malbranque ok but still right footed player on the left flank). when you look at our squad our only out and out winger is lennon who is injured to often and routledge who probably wont be used. our biggest problem saturday was we had 4 central players across the midfield no wonder we lacked creativity!!! just hope we get somene in before widow shuts

[Shirtfront]

MJ is indeed a better manager than the ones we had after Venables (although if Hoddle was given the same resources and support from the DoF, plus a little more time to learn from his man-mgmt mistakes, he may well have taken spurs close to the top 4 too). Criticism of him is not just because we lost the 1st game of the new season - why is it so difficult to see? Criticism of him is justified now because we talk about exactly the same problems that dogged us the whole of last season now, when the real play starts in the new season and after the whole pre-season too.

Sorry to repeat some of my previous points, but I'm quite interested to find out what fellow spurs fans think:
It is exactly the responsibility of Jol and Comolli to select players they feel will push us further up and it is up to Jol (and presumably Hughton too) to select tactics and coach the players to follow it. So to complain about "lack of creativity" etc as if they are some outside, unfortunate occurences, and not expect criticism directed at management is just naive and not very clever...

If you choose negative tactics and unbalanced team, please don't expect them to produce good football and go out for a win.
If you choose positive tactics, with emphasis on creating problems for the opposition rather than mainly trying to negate problems they can create for you, and then players do not follow your instructions, REPLACE them - not choose same players every time, ie not the same MF quartet Jenas, Malbranque, Zokora, Tainio again and again away!

After all the hype and expectations it was a bit depressing to see exactly the same team (bar Kaboul) as last season when we were away and when King/Dawson and Lee were injured. Depressing in the way that you were kind of expecting the kind of performance that lost us so many away games and contributed to so few clean sheets last season.
Robinson was not to blame at all though - unlike several of last season's matches - and Kaboul showed why he is likely to prove a very good signing. But the tactics, negative midfield and the startlingly mediocre Stalteri and Gardner sadly lived up to those concerns/expectations...

Martin Jol seems to have developed a serious case of Ericssonitis last year and it doesn't appear to have gone away at all: picking same players even though there's clearly a disbalance (Jenas/Tainio/Zokora/Malbranque with minor variations) and not promoting young exciting players for fear of their lack of experience. Unless you give players like Taarabt, Boateng, Dervitte a real chance (ie playing them from the start in several of competitive games, not just occasional 20-25 min), how can they get the experience they need? Wenger gave such a chance to Fabregas, Clichy, et al, Ferguson to the young guns of the 90s - and it paid off handsomely. None of those young players were established stars - they went on to become stars after getting trust and guidance from their managers.

From one extreme to the other. I would hardly say that an inability to score was a "problem that dogged us the whole of last season" and I don't think it's particularly fair to blame Jol for playing Stalteri and Gardner. You talk about Dervitte, but have you ever seen him play? You talk about KPB and Taarabt, but they're not defenders.

I would agree that having these guys on the bench would have been a better bet than 4 strikers and 4 central midfielders. But to suggest we should start a new season away from home against a physical side with Taraabt, KPB and Dervitte in the side is truly "naive and not very clever". If you want your criticism of Jol to hold water, you would be better placed not over filling the bucket.

[pistolP]

We have seem it all before - a superior (ability, technique) Spurs team lose to a side with better motivation and better organisation. A lack of 'drive', a lack of a 'personality' and an anonymous Jenas. Until BMJ starts to kick ass, starts to put the fear of god into some (actually all) of the team, and gets a coherent plan of what he wants, THFC will continue to underachieve despite the superb financial backing and support of Levy.


In support of your view, another thing that comes to mind is lack of quality training at Spurs. We never play 90 minutes under Jol, only 45 minutes. i was watching other teams and the amount of bodies they get in the box when they attacking compare to us. We are very slow in our play.

Galy told Steve Bruce that at Spurs players do not run and i hope it is not true as if you do not run, you will not build your stamina for matches.
i

[Jolmeister]

England Head Coach John Peacock has suffered a major setback after Danny Rose was ruled out of the World Cup with a stress fracture.

The Tottenham midfielder, influential as England reached the Final of the European Championships in May, complained of some discomfort in his leg and after an examination from medical staff Peacock’s worst fears were confirmed. "It’s a shame, not just for the squad but for him too," said Peacock. "When he said he had some pain in his calf, we had him checked out to see if he was OK. Unfortunately he wasn’t and he has a stress fracture.

That's all we need!

[keepthefaith]

Not good news on Rose but he was never getting into the team striaght away anyway.

On saturday's game did anyone else think Jenas was playing very deep? It seems to me Jol is grooming JJ for Carrick's role, controlling the game from the middle. I think this is a mistake as JJ for me is at his best making late runs into the box and getting on the end of things, while his passing is probably the weakst part of his game. If he wants someone to play the Carrick role Hudd is the closest we have. There has to be a link between Midfield and the strikers and on saturday there just wasnt.

Would like to see Steed, Zokora,Hudd and Jenas tommorrow night, I thnk this balance would be a lot better.

[Coyboy]

As I said earlier, our midfield four was ineffective but Jol had little choice. He knows better than all of us what they can and cannot do but I believe given our defensive absentees and the opposition, playing any of Taarabt, Boateng or Dervitte (fit?) would have been naive. We were seconds away from a clean sheet so defensively it nearly worked.

Glad to see defense of Jenas, I stop reading posts when they say "he's shit" or "he hasn't had a good game in two years" or "I hate him". When he was out over Christmas we struggled, when he returned in late January, February our form improved due in part to his goals and energy.

There always has to be someone to blame but saturday it was a case of unfortunate injuries in key areas against a motivated and well organised team. Scousers...

[kieron91]

Ajax have agreed to sell Wesley Sneijder to Real Madrid for £18.6m (27m euros)according to the Sky Sports website :evil:

[Jolmeister]

Not good news on Rose but he was never getting into the team striaght away anyway.

On saturday's game did anyone else think Jenas was playing very deep? It seems to me Jol is grooming JJ for Carrick's role, controlling the game from the middle. I think this is a mistake as JJ for me is at his best making late runs into the box and getting on the end of things, while his passing is probably the weakst part of his game. If he wants someone to play the Carrick role Hudd is the closest we have. There has to be a link between Midfield and the strikers and on saturday there just wasnt.

Would like to see Steed, Zokora,Hudd and Jenas tommorrow night, I thnk this balance would be a lot better.

Rose has been given squad no 37 so he will get a few games. But I agree with you about JJ, playing him and Zokora in the middle is a mistake, JJ is better playing wide right so he can get down the wing, especially as we are without Lennon.

[Paxtonite]

FFS it was clear thar KPB needs few more weeks cos he missed most of pre season so why does everyone here expect to see him on the bench???

Taraabt should have been, and it is clear that Jol cant satisfy ALL the strikers so 2 on pitch and 2 on bench aint gonna work. 1 has to stay in their suit i am afraid.

Gardner, should be sent far away from WHL. i hate slagging off our players but this guy has never been good enough. Kaboul, Zokora and Malbranque only players with credit from Saturday. The whole day was too predictable.

I posted on here some days ago that complacency would be a problem for us, because of the belief and expectation of getting into CL this season. Right as rain all our players turned up on Saturday believing the game was won already. This mind set has to change and this is down to Jol to start kicking ass. You get nothing without hard work.

Luckily we have a game coming up quick smart that can help us set things right very quickly.

BTW i don't agree with Keane being captain. It makes it difficult to sub him and i don't see him as a leader. Well though he has done for us in recent times i still think that too many moves break down when the ball reaches him. That is why he is better when he is on the END of moves. This way he either scores or he doesn't.

[Paxtonite]

Rose has been given squad no 37 so he will get a few games. But I agree with you about JJ, playing him and Zokora in the middle is a mistake, JJ is better playing wide right so he can get down the wing, especially as we are without Lennon.

Rubbish!

Jenas down the right?? You having a laugh! If you want someone down the "wing" play Routledge.

[Kingstheman]

Gents, calm down.

This match was a must win. We will not get a chance to play them again (away). We were very poor in the second half. The defence was make-shift and all teams in the league know that Gardner and Stalteri can be exposed. Gardner has all of the right physical attributes to be a great centre half - but there are times that he scares every lilywhite by a lack of speed in thought or by dallying. Staleri - solid professional and very good in his first season does have a weakness in that he can be turned inside out. Huddlestone was brought on too late - he had a a mare when he came on. Trying to go this way, then that way, then back again - just outside our area and conceding a free kick (Very poor refereeing there).

What really dissappoints me is that Jenas and Zokora are such great athletes and should dominate the game - but Jenas went down and looked to the referee too many times. Readin scrapped every sinew to get a point from Old Trafford and this is a quality we desperately need. Zokora does like to play deep and this limits the effectiveness of his surging runs.

Berbatov showed a little skill but no heart and to employ Bent is to exploit his pace behind defenders - we did not do this.

Robinson deserves praise - two or three saves that kept us in the game.

Kaboul looks like a real steal.

Chimbonda made a mistake at the critical moment by not going and getting in front of his man.

Zokora needs to bea box-to-box player not a 'holding midfielder'. His runsare of immense use, but when they start on our 18 yard line???

Jenas - eat some steaks and get down to the weights room. Get the hunger and aggression that match your running and you will be great. Don't and you.... wont.

We need a bully up front for these games... Yakubu???

First game over - time to make amends.

These young boys we keep hearing about - lets see them as well. Maybe not straight away for 90 minutes - but why buy if they wont play???

Damn - time for work again.

[Jolmeister]

Rubbish!

Jenas down the right?? You having a laugh! If you want someone down the "wing" play Routledge.

You are right, I was talking about the formation on Saturday when Tainio was played RM, I think it would have been better with Tainio CM and JJ RM.

[Shirtfront]

To be honest I only watched the first half because I had to go out, but this was my take. Hate to say it, but upon seeing the team sheet I feared for the worst. No natural width or creativity. Tainio is a workhorse CM, Jenas is best in broken play with his late runs, Zokora cannot deliver a final ball (pass/shot) but his workrate and surging runs often move us into the right areas to attack, Malbranque was possibly the best of the four actually trying to make things work but still struggles on the left. The balance was all wrong, if we continue to play a right footer on the left (or even two for that matter) who's instinct is to drift in, then we must have someone on the opposite flank who is capable of making a telling contribution in an attacking sense, otherwise we become too predictable looking to thread passes through centrally, and with Huddlestone not in the side we don't really have anyone capable of doing that succesfully. If we are going to play that narrow, then Huddlestone needs to start to offer some sort of guile, ush Jenas out wide right and task him with staying wide use his pace to stretch the play, let Zokora or Tainio offer the mobility and discipline alongside Huddlestone and let Malbranque offer the forward thrust from inside left. Or give Routledge a chance, our only true winger other than Lennon, he can't ave been any worse than what we had yesterday, having someone like him out right would have stemmed the play from their left as Wallace looked to have no defensive job at all and so was alowed to link with Richardson all too often and too easily. Pick players to fit the system, not round pegs in square holes. The other option would've/should've been Taarabt, more than capable of playing wide and always ready to ask questions of the defence. O'Hara wouldn't have been a bad option either, at least as an inside left he has a left foot to offer balance, I'm stretching it now to too many youngsters, but I feel the balnace in midfield was the problem as they didn't really link the back four to the front men, offering little or no protection and little or no creativity. They each seemed to be trying to cover defence and attack stretching themselves too thin, jack of all trades master of none, rather than sharing the workload, some more defensive some more offensive.
In defence, Stalteri looked fairly composed and disciplined at LB, baring some slight errors Gardner, who probably wouldn't have expected to be involved wasn't too bad (to be honest I would've thought Rocha would've got the nod before Gardner), Kaboul in a new look back line looked fairly good, Chimbonda, well, frustrating really, able but uninterested? People are saying the same of Berbatov, but with that kind of service I'd be fed up too. When the game is poorm like that Keane struggles because he tries too hard toturn things around and actually makes himself ineffective as he has to come so deep and gets the ball in the wrong areas.
The back line doesn't really need changing unless Dawson and/or one of the left backs becomes available. The front two should be ok. The midfield needs balancing, either Routledge, Taarabt or Malbranque on the flanks with Huddlestone in the middle alongside Tainio or Zokora. Jenas, I'm not sure, he can only play alongside Zokora in the middle when we have real penetration on the flank. Boateng could be an option wide should he be ready.
The other option if we really have no width is to use three central midfielders in central roles, with Keane given a license to drift and roam, Bent/Defoe and Berabtov up front, that way when Keane does come deep Berbatov still has someone else with him to link with, also havong three centrally allows us to assign someone to shield, but for this we need widt and service from th fullbacks, not sure if we're right for that.

You may have only seen half the game, but perfect analysis. Could not agree more.

[Shirtfront]

i'm going to say something very controversial that i thought i'd never say.... but if only JJ was knocked out for a couple of months!! I'm so confident that we've got enough quality to cover and improve on him - the youngsters will step up and seize the opportunity!!

Hmmm. Short memory. Exactly that happened just before Christmas last year and our form slumped alarmingly. Only to recover once Jenas was back (motm in his first performance, as I recall).

Still, I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Let's villify him for being completely crowded out in a narrow midfield with no outlet on either side of him and nowhere for him to run into.

[UncleBuck]

The longer the game went on the more apparent it became that Sunderland were going to score....the game reminded me so much of when we went up there two season ago and lost in the last minute when Salty ballsed up...

Is it just me or does anyone else think we had a relatively easy pre-season? Most other prem league clubs have been involved in playing against eachother or other European teams in tournaments....I just think that we looked well off the pace and maybe we are a game or two behind other PL clubs in terms of competitiveness and match fitness......

[Shirtfront]

The pundits have spoken and the concensus is that our midfield is naff primarily Jenas and Zokora. I cannot disagree especially concerning Jenas who hasn't had a good match in two years. Is Martin Jol sucked in by Jenas's arrogance in talking like a world class player? Frankly I'd rather have the honest endeavours of Danny Murphy. But realistically I think it is time for Tommy Huddlestone to be given a long enough run to prove he is our director of operations from the midfield (or not!). Also a tandem of Boateng/Taarabt would at least provide energy in the midfield even though neither is proven at Premiership level. Other than that do I expect the remainder of the team to be as inept as yesterday? No, I don't. So bring on Everton for our first win of the many to follow. As our injured players return to the fold we can then move on with added confidence.

I bet you didn't say that when Jenas equalised against the Ar$e.

And we tried a Huddlestone for Jenas swap last season when JJ broke his ankle. It coincided with our worst run of form in 3 years.

When will people realise that the problem does not lie with individual players; it lies in their combination.

If you play 4 central midfielders in a midfield, none of whom are renowned for their creativity, it is hardly a surprise that you get a narrow midfield lacking in creativity.

So if you want to blame someone, blame Jol. But I suspect he knew this and thought our front two would have enough to beat them notwithstanding the lack of supply. He got it wrong; lesson learned.

[will8587]

Against Everton, I'd like to see:

Robinson
Chimbonda/Rocha/Kaboul/Stalteri
Malbranque/Huddlestone/Zokora/Taarabt
Bent/Berbatov

Subs: Cerny, Gardner, Jenas, Routledge, Keane

I think as of now with all our injuries, this is our best squad. If Taarabt gets overmatched, put Routledge in at RM, and move Malbranque to the left.
I like the Huddlestone/Bent partnership that seems to be developing. Hopefully, they will shine together.

What do you guys think?

[Shirtfront]

REJOICE FELLOW YIDS! Saturday could not have gone better.

It was becoming increasingly apparent that the media, egged on by the likes of Mourinho, were all too happy to congratulate us on our success before we had ever achieved it. And after months of expectation and hype, it seems to me that perhaps we started believing that press, behaving as if we had succeeded in our task of challenging the "big four", before we had actually done anything other than buy some expensive squad players.

Certainly I have seen signs of complacency in pre-season and, without naming names, I think they were there on Saturday too - maybe on and off the pitch.

So I'm glad we lost. Or at least, if we are going to play like that I would rather we lost than sneak a win or a draw and use the result to hide the multitude of sins in the side on Saturday.

And I'm glad the rest of the "big four", especially the Scum, got results. We needed a reminder of the gap between us and them and the level at which we need to perform if we are actually going to earn the accolades that appear to have been heaped on us in advance.

And I'm glad that it's only tomorrow that we get to go the Lane, having taken our medicine and been cured of the disease of over confidence, so we can actually start performing like the side we can be; not just talking about it.

So, Rejoice and let the Season commence!

[Jolmeister]

Against Everton, I'd like to see:

Robinson
Chimbonda/Rocha/Kaboul/Stalteri
Malbranque/Huddlestone/Zokora/Taarabt
Bent/Berbatov

Subs: Cerny, Gardner, Jenas, Routledge, Keane

I think as of now with all our injuries, this is our best squad. If Taarabt gets overmatched, put Routledge in at RM, and move Malbranque to the left.
I like the Huddlestone/Bent partnership that seems to be developing. Hopefully, they will shine together.

What do you guys think?

Malbranque and Huddlestone together would not cope with the pace of AJ if you put JJ Hud Zokora then JJ and Zokora have the pace to cover with Taarabt having the freedom to go L or R.

[spurs2dn]

Hoping for a better result in the next game

[If**kinglovespurs]

I know this will be a little controversial but hear me out - I have been a spurs fan for over 25 years and at the age of 31 thats a pretty lengthy period of my life.. BUT

I feel Martin has taken us as far as we can go. He is a very good manager but not the man to take us to the top!! Remember how distraught Chelsea were when Claudio Raneiri was dismissed for Jose but that ruthlessness was needed and it paid dividends for Chelsea!! 2 back 2 back titles!

Under Jol, I am seeing the same poor mistakes and last season we were lucky to finish 5th! We all know that.

Today I knew we would lose as whenever we play a team with a bit of underbelly we lose, Bolton, Sunderland, Man Utd, Liverpool, etc etc etc.

Sorry an already disheartened spurs fan.

However... come what may I will be watching the boys on Tuesday with the same enthusiasm as when I was a 6 year old lad. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

I completely agree with you. There is no doubt Jol is a good coach, but is he really a great one???? Time will tell but for me the signs do not look good. And before everyone else screams at me, I haven't come this conclusion after just one match. We were very lucky to finsh 5th and I think we'll be even luckier if we do it again this time. I may get slaughtered for saying this but I think Newcastle will grab 5th spot.

[Pillbug]

Somehow managed to watch the match even though I was in a desert town in Southwest USA.

We were awful, to put it mildly. Alas, while we do not need a left winger exactly, we could have used Kim Kallstrom who has a left foot. Steed kept getting drawn inside and if the game plan is for our midfielders to overlap each other and share the left side, they did not do it. We lacked creativity although Huddle looked promising, so based on this match alone, he should start the next. Jenas and malbranque especially looked flaccid and one of them should be dropped for him

All that and some other points on here explain why we didn't score. Giving up that goal at the end was a debacle and never should have happened. Too much pushing forward in hopes of snatching a victory I suppose, but we snatched a loss.

[will8587]

Malbranque and Huddlestone together would not cope with the pace of AJ if you put JJ Hud Zokora then JJ and Zokora have the pace to cover with Taarabt having the freedom to go L or R.

It might work. I just thought Zokora and Jenas were atrocious together vs Sunderland, and I would rather they not play together again. If we played Zokora, Jenas, Huddlestone and Taarabt, we'd run into the same problem that we did on Saturday. We'd have no width and we'd get bottled up in the middle of the pitch.
We need to spread our game out, so the midfield is able to start supplying balls to our strikers. We weren't able to do that vs Sunderland, but with Taarabt and Malbranque on the sides, we would be able to. If we can't resolve this issue tomorrow, we're going to be in a bad position when we face Derby.

[Jolmeister]

Too much pushing forward in hopes of snatching a victory I suppose, but we snatched a loss.

:rofl:

[tingy98]

Hmmm. Short memory. Exactly that happened just before Christmas last year and our form slumped alarmingly. Only to recover once Jenas was back (motm in his first performance, as I recall).

Still, I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Let's villify him for being completely crowded out in a narrow midfield with no outlet on either side of him and nowhere for him to run into.

You talking about losing to the gooners 3 nil? 1-3 MOTM performances a season isn't good enough for us anymore.... he doesn't do it on a regular enough basis and we're trying to move up another level!!

I'm sure that you'll remember that Hudd had his best moments during that xmas period also and we all can see that Zokora is very capable of charging forward with the ball when allowed to, which is a lot more than JJ is doing currently.

I'm not forgetting his moments of brilliance against United but again..... when do you say enough is enough? he's not going to develop into the likes of Gerrard/Lamps/Scholes/Fab and it's time to give someone else the opportunity or at least try something different - recoup/have a rest etc!!

I'll support whoever puts on the white shirt but the most frustrating thing is that Jol constantly raves about him and it drives me up the wall.

The point about the midfield.... if it's narrow/cluttered and your team mates are in the way...... surely you can occassionally drift out wide and he does take the set pieces all the time therefore he can put a cross in from the right flank surely? He has a slow footballing brain and needs to be told everything.... the players i mentioned above would exploit the gaps or interchange positions!!

[Pillbug]

I'll support whoever puts on the white shirt but the most frustrating thing is that Jol constantly raves about him and it drives me up the wall.

Exactly! Jenas is not a terrible player by any means and has some good pace and tackling. nonetheless to see him established as a automatic starting lineup when fit is silly in my mind. True, he has done soome good things, and scored some fine goals, but given his status as a default first team starting player, I would hope he would have accomplished something in the past few years anyway.

I would have hoped for another midfield purchase ... someone under whom Huddle could have developed especially, but alas.....

[Berbamaniac]

Certainly I have seen signs of complacency in pre-season and, without naming names, I think they were there on Saturday too - maybe on and off the pitch.

I don't understand why you would not want to name names. Don't chicken out of your opinion. It's what the forum's about. This is not 1984. We're (well, i'm) not going to dob you into Levy.

[If**kinglovespurs]

my problem with jj is that he dithers and faff's around with the ball too much.... there is no quick pass.... he takes too many touches and then gets closed down and marginally gets away with it most the time!!

the other issue is that he's becoming an "untouchable" never being dropped despite being poor.... I remember Zokora being dropped last season when playing rubbish!!

my main issue is that he should never be anywhere never a cornerkick.... no threat/pace/or wip and it rarely gets past the first defender! I think he is a good player but there's a time when Jol should give others an opportunity!!

JJ being JJ would then do nothing for 90 mins and score the winner in the 92nd min and it's justified his place in the team when i'm pretty certain we would of done a lot better with the likes of Taarabt playing in his position!! Jol would then sing his praises which fcuks me off massively!!

It's so true.......Jol absolutely loves Jenas and is totally blinded by him. I don't think he will ever drop him and that is completely unacceptable!!!!!!!! No player should ever be untouchable. FFS Jol, PLEASE open your eyes

[steve]

You're just accepting failure for Spurs. We've dealt with failure for years, but this year we're better than that.

I disagree. I don't think this year we are much better than last, or not at the moment with the injuries. Don't forget how shocking we could be last season at times. We lost 4 of the 1st 6. We lost away at Sheffield United. Drew 3-3 with Wigan. Got spanked 4-0 by Man Yoo. And 3-0 at the A*se & Liverpool. Drew home and away with Fulham. And amongst these there were some very poor performances.

I would urge EVERYONE to get the review of the season DVD from Spurs and watch it. We are not as good as everyone thinks and certainly not good enough for the top 4. The only way it may happen is if one of the present incumbents slips up badly and our new signings come in and do really really fantastically well.

11 against 11 we are the 5th best team in the league. 16 against 16 it remains the same. Hype and reactivity go together and there's far too much of it on here. Away from home we were sh*te last season until the last 10 games or so. I don't care what people think we should be doing. I'm dealing with the facts. We're behind Arsenal, and although we may be getting closer we still have a long way to go.
Our stock in European football has only really changed in the last season or two, but we're STILL miles behind the big boys. We wanted Nani & Hargreaves. Not a chance with Man Yoo involved. That is a fact and it will take 10 years or more for that to change (if it ever does).

So I'll stick with the long term plan thanks and leave the 'string 'em all up by the balls after 1 game' b*llocks to everyone else. Jol said recently he wants to challenge for the title in 3 years time. That'll do me.....

[Coyboy]

Jol sees spurs as needing a spine, and in his words a spine of english players + Keane. He sees Jenas as an integral part of this spine especially since Carrick left. In Jenas' two seasons for us we have finished fifth and he has contributed with goals and assists. Now he makes mistakes through errors of judgement and inexperience, these will be erradicated over time.

I can't believe the assumption that Jol plays him blindly and will never drop him. Rubbish. Jol plays him because Jol believes he is an important player for us. I trust Jol more than some idiot who sees a misplaced pass and uses it to trash Jenas professionally and personally.

Taarabt and Boateng have been brought in to possibly challenge Jenas, in addition to Huddlestone, which may give JJ the impetus to push on even more and become the player he can be.

[nicko]

Jenas can try really hard sometimes i remember him last season running the full length of the pitch...only to miss an open goal but that really isn't thhe point he can play well but in costantly incossitant(can you be constantly incossitant?) and then sometime he turns into jenas the penish when he tries he fancy flicks that go terribley wrong or his god-awful shots that are frankly just embrassing! Jol trusts him to much and needs to be less strict about formations. I remeber when he play a more attacking style against chelsea and were 3-1 up and were playing the best football that season. I think he needs to be more experimental with players and tatics to see where we realy can get but he' the manager not me so lets just trust his judgement for now and see what happens.

[spurs_viola]

From one extreme to the other. I would hardly say that an inability to score was a "problem that dogged us the whole of last season" and I don't think it's particularly fair to blame Jol for playing Stalteri and Gardner. You talk about Dervitte, but have you ever seen him play? You talk about KPB and Taarabt, but they're not defenders.

I would agree that having these guys on the bench would have been a better bet than 4 strikers and 4 central midfielders. But to suggest we should start a new season away from home against a physical side with Taraabt, KPB and Dervitte in the side is truly "naive and not very clever". If you want your criticism of Jol to hold water, you would be better placed not over filling the bucket.

Are you serious? After about 15 thousand posts in 2.5 days and MJ himself pointing out to our "lack of creativity" and lack of balance (the long-standing problems I was talking about) - you just pick on the statistical failure to score? At the risk of repeating this point to death, the above long-standing problems are exactly the main reason we failed to score!

And I for one never suggested we should have started with all those young guys you mentioned. What I did mean, was that Taarabt would have been a much better and ambitious option on the left, and with Routledge as a sub we would have more attacking options against a newly promoted team who were clearly nervous in the first half! Then at half-time Roy Keane must have pointed out to them the simple fact (and reconfirmed their own hopes) that Spurs on that day were nothing to be scared of - which sadly proved correct!

Stalteri and Gardner...Well, Rocha played left side a couple of times last year and definitely did not look worse than Stalteri there. And Rocha definitely has a better technique than poor Stalti (how many of us winced in embarrassment at his first touch and lack of positional balance on several occasions in that game?..).
Dervitte - I saw him when he was given a chance in one of the cup games last year and in a couple of reserve games - and he showed himself very well in all those games. Have YOU seen him play? He is at least a step forward, rather than falling back on the unreliable Gardner, who clearly does not have much of a future at Spurs, being linked with a move for the 2nd season in row - and yet MJ insists on the "safe" option of "tried and tested"(and ultimately failed) choices like Gardner rather than show some ambition and give chance to someone like Dervitte. BTW, if Dervitte is injured or unfit (no news on that) it's different, but how many people can be sure Dervitte would have been given a chance ahead of Gardner by MJ now?

[Shirtfront]

I don't understand why you would not want to name names. Don't chicken out of your opinion. It's what the forum's about. This is not 1984. We're (well, i'm) not going to dob you into Levy.

Because I didn't want my post to degenerate into the usual "he's sh1t; no he's not" debate that dominates the forum. If people want to engage in that slanging match (and I do at times) there are plenty of threads to join.

Instead, I wanted to keep attention focused on the point that this result could be the best thing that happened to the team collectively. A short sharp shock to get rid of any complacency that may have crept in over the summer as, inevitably, footballers with already big enough egos had been reading and believing their own press.

It's exactly why Morinho and Fergie (the master of mind games) had been bigging us up in public. Because they hoped it might cost us points.