Mistakes aplenty!

[BringBack_leGin]

Seeing as there is a defence of Jol, surely there needs to be an equally thought out attack of Jol (and I am not part of the Jol Out Brigade)...

OK, No King or Dawson, so start with Kaboul, fair enough. However, against Sunderland, Gardner was useless as a Centre back, and Stalteri was useless at left back. The solution... put Gardner at left back where he is not only a quick natural left footer, but also less of a danger to our goal, get Stalteri out completely, and put Rocha at centre back who has never proved himself to be less than competent.

OK, Chimbonda is by all accounts a very good right back... why have we not seen this since last January? Jol, you wanted him, it took an entire summer and £6m to sign him, and I don't know about other fans, but I could not imagine a less interested right back, and I've seen Steven Carr after George Graham left. Give me a Taricco any day!

OK, all our left sided players are injured at present... but which players have left the club this summer I wonder? Emil Halfredsson, Charlie Daniels, Reto Ziegler, and Mark Yeates... all wide left players, one of which was once upon a time highly thought of at the club. And who is the next player to leave... that's right folks, the LEFT FOOTED Mido. I'm not saying any of these players are good enough, I'm just pointing out something that appears to follow little or no logic whatsoever.

OK, I'm as thrilled as the next guy that we have 4 top forwards. But that is a problem when the manager doesn't have the bottle to leave one of them out completely. Our bench will forever be limited if we persist with trying to have 4 strikers in the 16 every time. And playing Keane in midfield does not solve this problem, it just puts a good forward into a position where he is ineffective.

The midfield. After Sunderland Jol bemoaned our lack of creativity, and yet Jenas, Steed and Zokora still started. Jol, maybe a midfield would look a bit better on the creative front if you played someone capable of finding a clever pass, or creating some space. From what I saw, in pre-season the young Taarabt taught eveyone a lesson in what an attacking midfielder should be... so why not leave him out of the 16 altogether! He's only a quick, strong dribbler who can pass cross and shoot. What possible use could that be! He should be on the bench minimum, and in the absence of Lennon, our only other exciting midfielder, he should be starting! Especially away to a poor promoted side, and at home against the team that used to be our whipping boys.

The midfield continued... Jenas and Zokora in the middle provides how much scope for a pass? NONE! Jenas is neat, he works hard, is full of energy, and despite certain accusations, a competent tackler with decent positioning. Sounds like an anchorman to me. Ok, he scores goals, so does Gilberto, so did Keane, so did bloody Sherwood! He will never create. Keep him in as a defensive midfielder, but put him next to a playmaker so that he doesn't have to concentrate on trying to create. Zokora is fast and can turn on the ball. As yet I see nothing else that he can do. DROP HIM! Play a creative player instead, maybe Taarabt, or when he's ready, if he is what I hope he is, Boateng.

You may ask why that last paragraph should be a criticism of Jol and not of the players, well it is a criticism of Jol because he wanted these players, he bought them, he continues to play them. £7m and £8m respectively... sounds like a Rosicky and an Arteta to me, or maybe an Aimar and a Diego. (those are all those players recent transfer fees). I'm not saying I want two flair players in the middle, I'm saying a want one with a workhorse. Jenas is a workhorse, Zokora is a muppet.

And, may I ask, what is the point in a forward like Bent who feeds off of spaces when there is no midfielder in the team (like Lennon or Taarabt) who can create space, and no midfielder in the team (like Boateng or Huddlestone) who can play a ball into space. I am sure that none of you will be shocked that my largest assault has focused on the midfield.

Now, and I thought this before the match, but I especially think it now, in the absence of Lennon, given that Jol clearly does not think Taarabt or Boateng are quite ready to be thrown in (I am praying that Boateng ends up usurping Zokora from the team while Taarabt, though not a lefty, can make the left his own), are Malbranque (on his weaker side albeit) and Tainio really better equipped than Routledge to prove some width? I doubt it. In fact, Routledge should most certainly start the next game, as should one of the other two (if I had my way it would be both but hey, not going to happen, it will probably be neither).

Now I hate suggesting teams, but I will anyway, just to stimulate some more conversation.....

how about:-

..................Robinson
Chimbonda Dawson Rocha Lee
Routledge Jenas Boateng Taarabt
.............Defoe Berbatov

Bench: Cerny, Gardner, Huddlestone, Ghaly, Bent

Robinson as far as I am concerned was majestic, if not for him we would have conceded 7. A bit iffy with a cross or two but who blames him when that's the defence in front of him.

Chimbonda, much as I dislike him profusely, is our best available right back

Dawson is apparently going to be fit. I would like him with Kaboul because Kaboul looks awesome, but a pulled hamstring is probably going to keep him out for a game or two at least.

Lee, from the pictures on the site, is very much back in training. He is unlikely to be fully fit, but for goodness sake we need him like never before.

Routledge came on and dribbled every time, even though sometimes without success. His crossing was pretty good and he looked hungry. Time to give him a chance!

Jenas is the lesser of two evils in the middle, but I think he can be a good anchorman, but nothing more.

Boateng will have had more than enough time to train back to fitness, I pray that he is ready.

Taarabt was our best midfielder by a mile in pre-season. He deserves the chance, especially ahead of last nights lot.

Defoe came on and we actually had some intent, and he did more than the other three did in the entire game, so he should start.

Berba, Keane and Bent were all equally ineffective, but on the basis that Berbatov is the best of the three I think he should partner Defoe. And of the other two, Bent should be the one to make the bench because he gives us far more options.

For those of you who believe that we should keep some consistency in the midfield, why? so that we can consistently play badly? this is not a case of gelling, they've had that period, this is a case of none of them being good enough. A more than winnable game against Derby provides the opportunity to make such bold changed.

For those of you who think I'm mad leaving Keane out, what did he do in either game to inspire any confidence? You may reply with "What did Berbatov do?" but Berbatov is a better passer, dribbler, shooter, he is stronger, faster, better in the air, more aware and is pretty much the only reason to go to White Hart Lane right now. So yes, I would get rid of Keane, not permanently, but for this next game.

For those of you who think that Dawson and Lee should not be rushed, I've seen us lose at home to Derby County before. Its not a pretty sight.

For those of you who think I am being harsh on Stalteri... against Sunderland he was skinned for the goal. Against Everton he showed a winger who was already well into our area so much space and time that it was impossible not to find his player with the cross. He is a liability, especially out of position at left back.

For those of you who wonder why I dislike Zokora so much, when was the last time he actually produced anything worthwhile, defensively or in attack?

I am very angry with our negative, stubborn manager. I know he will never implement the changes for which I pray, and I know that when I see the line up at 2:50pm on Saturday while sitting in my usual seat in the West stand upper, I am again going to be severely depressed.

Its going to be a long nine months boys!

COME ON YOU SPURS!

[Glenn_Purvey]

IT seems to me no matter how well people do in pre-season Jol still has his favourites.

Defoe and Hudd must start on saturday with routledge on the wing.

make a decision Jol who you drop upfront.

[hermod]

Buy

Emerson, Guti and Daniel Agger

[danielneeds]

Some valid points; Jenas an anchorman is an intersting idea, but did you see how Dickson Etutiu (sic?) bullied him up at the stadium of light???

I think that we will see a very different side when Bale and Lennon are fit, we will be able to stretch teams out wide. Let's just hope they are not too far off...

[Glenn_Purvey]

lennon is at least 5 weeks away and bale 3 weeks

[gloryglory]

Some of what you say is fair. Some of it I feel is harsh. And unfortunately, some of it seems overly optimistic too.

I think flinging Boateng in out of panic could set him back no end. New players need to be gradually bedded in to winning sides. For the same reason, the striker I would leave out would be Bent. A start for Defoe might not be a bad idea, so we can agree at least on the strikers.

I thought Steed looked the part yesterday, but a left midfielder he is not. I'd be happy to see him on the right if we had a leftie. As we don't, we need to play a narrow diamond.

I hope Tainio is fit, but if he isn't, then Zokora is the only person we have who can sit at the back of the diamond. Huddlestone, Jenas and Malbranque would make up my other three, but Taarabt ought to be on the bench ready to take up the role behind the front two. Keane could also play that role at a push.

Best we've got:

Robbo

Chimbonda Dawson? Rocha Gardner

Zokora
Jenas Huddlestone
Malbranque

Berbatov Defoe

Subs - Keane, Bent, Taarabt, Stalteri, Cerny

[PartyBoy]

I cant help but wonder does Jol prepare the troops properly in pre-season. If Ghaly did tell Bruce that we do not do the intensive fitness work he was reported to have been asked to do then perhaps that may go some way to explain our lackluster start to the last two seasons. I also think the style of game Jol wishes to play needs to be played at a very high tempo - again if you are to hit the ground running you got to try and have this tempo set before the season starts - not easy in pre-season games. The worst thing we can collectively do is hit the panic button. Two bad results but it is a long season - hopefully the problems are addressed quicker than last season!

[seneca]

pretty sound post i think. i've always stuck up for jol and put his sometime lack of tactical nous down to inexperience at this level but it really is time to step up.
how can anyone not see that rocha is three times the player tony g is? i thought he was majestic last night and gave a defensive masterclass. the one mistake i remember him making (dwelling on the ball and allowing johnston to tackle) he still recovered to win a free kick.
salty can't play left back.
routledge was excellent and provided top quality crosses. so why had jol taken bent off before wayne came on? surely he was the most likely of our forwards to benefit from the crosses. could jol not see this?
i've always supported zoko and jj. last night i thought jj was a disgrace: lazy, slow, disinterested and slack. he provided nothing. i thought steed did well in the first half but didn't seem to know what his job was in the second.
robbie is not a right midfielder.
surely pre season gives the manager a chance to assess our players. so why aren't our most consistent performers (taarabt and the hudd) in contention?

our midfield last night was a disgace of nothingness. jol showed no balls and no insight. it is surely time to be bold.

taarabt on the left. people say that he's not ready. and never will be if he's not given his chance. could he do worse than we've seen so far?

routledge on the right. because he's a right winger. looked good last night, looked dangerous. how good will he get if he gets his confidence back? possibly up to the standards he showed at palace before we started mucking him about.

the hudd holding midfield. he earned it in pre season. he can pass. that can help in midfield.

attacking centre steed or kpb. i think steed looked quite good. works hard, has an eye for a pass. apparently kpb isn't match fit. can't slower of foot and mind than jj surely!

defoe showed more guts and appetite than the other attackers last night and so should start. couldn't criticise any of our forwards last night as they got no service. oh, and did anyone else notice that robbie isn't a right midfielder?

perhaps the younger players might show some spirit, some flair, some balls and look like they give a f*ck.

[jo_leon]

I agree with the point about Chimbonda, he definately looks unhappy - what happened to his and zokora's double teams on any opponent who went near the likes of lennon!?

Saying that, some of Chimbonda's crosses last night were sublime, if only Berba's header had gone in and not hit the post!

Interesting idea with regards to Jenas, would like to see how he and Boateng play together as long as one of them covers the other when one sets off.

I just hope we have more players back for the visit to Manure - Full strength i think we could give anyone a run for their money but right now, we'd struggle to beat Derby!

[danielneeds]

I cant help but wonder does Jol prepare the troops properly in pre-season. If Ghaly did tell Bruce that we do not do the intensive fitness work he was reported to have been asked to do then perhaps that may go some way to explain our lackluster start to the last two seasons. I also think the style of game Jol wishes to play needs to be played at a very high tempo - again if you are to hit the ground running you got to try and have this tempo set before the season starts - not easy in pre-season games. The worst thing we can collectively do is hit the panic button. Two bad results but it is a long season - hopefully the problems are addressed quicker than last season!

Highly doubtful, especally with Comoilli there to report to the board. There was nothing wrong with our fitness yesterday, it was team shape and individual error that led to that shower of sh£$...

[justfookinhitit]

For those that say Taarabt is a bit too young, I remember loads of people saying that before Lennon came along and set the world alight...........

Give him a go and give him clear instructions that his job is to keep the opponent's RM and RB busy keeping tabs on him. If the least he does is stop them attacking down the right that has to be a better situation than we have at the moment. And every time we've seen him in the past he's created things, so shock horror he might actually do the same again.

If Jol was concerned about using him from the start then we could unleash him for the final half hour. But giving him 10 minutes is worthless.

[shelfmonkey]

I think the 2 biggest mistakes were made by firstly Mr & Mrs Jenas, and Mr & Mrs Gardner allowing young Anthony to develop a liking of football instead of basketball.

[FITZ]

Anyone answer the question of why Chimbo beats two players on the edge of their box opens a massive opportunity to shoot. Turns around and passes it to the RW to beat the same two players again. As he seems to do this every game.

I just find it odd.

[tingy98]

Good post....

Keane won't be dropped as he's captain - which is another funny one to debate about!!!

He'll be in the team till Ledley is back.....

[tingy98]

Interesting Article written by someone on vitalfootball about JJ

Following the last two matches the spotlight of blame has rested firmly on Jermain Jenas. The problem with Jenas is not that he`s a bad player but that he is simply average.

He has no distinguishing features to his game. To my mind there are four different types of central midfielder (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#).

Firstly, there is the attacking midfielder such as Lampard who is always powering forward hovering on the edge of the area, having long shots and often passing the forwards in the attack.

Secondly, the defensive player such as Gattusso who destroys play and simply lays the ball off to a superior passer (in his case for club and country Andrea Pirlo (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#)).

Thirdly, the deep lying central midfielder, such as Pirlo and Carrick who sit in front of the defence receiving the ball and dispatching accurate passes both long and short range whilst seeming to have infinite time on the ball.

Lastly, the ultimate midfielders such as Gerrard and Essien who can do everything and run themselves into the ground every game for the team (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#). Jenas fits into none of these categories, he does not push forward to support the attack. His defensive work is poor, he is often out-muscled and his passes even over ten yards regularly go awry.

The best thing for Jenas to do is work on his forward runs, positioning and shooting. I personally would be tempted to push Jenas onto the right side of midfield (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#) whilst Lennon is injured as he is able to dribble to some extent and he has an uncanny turn of pace which he rarely demonstrates in the middle of the park. Also by playing him out wide it may allow him to regain some confidence in his own ability as the pressure would not be as high. It is easy to forget he is still quite young and definitely has potential.

Unfortunately, Jenas has not been helped by Martin Jol waxing a lyrical about him being on a par with Gerrard (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#) and Lampard and a candidate for the England team. It is one thing to 'big-up` your players to the press but too much can leave both manager and player looking ridiculous.

Totally agree with the last paragraph!!!

[mendesstormer]

I'd agree with most of the poster's comments here. Lee at left back would be a vast improvement, obviously. Dawson and Rocha is the obvious centreback pairing. Defoe definitely deserves to start, and while Berbs probably deserves to be dropped on current form, he's probably the best partner for Defoe, so I'd give him at least one more game to show he's up for it at the start of this season. I think your suggested midfield looks pretty good, but it's a huge gamble, even against Derby, who will probably fight hard as most promoted sides do particularly early season. I'd go with TT as the defensive midfielder and either Jenas as the AM or Thudd and Jenas in front with either Malbranque or Routledge as the 'spare' man able to swap wings as necessary/desirable. The scary thing is that Lee, Daws and TT may well all be unfit. In which case no current premiership manager would be able to make a strong team out of what's left at the defensive end of the squad. The defence itself is down to bad luck with injuries, but a good question is, why we don't have more 'proper' defensive midfielders. All of them except Tainio lack defensive discipline - though admittedly Jenas is really improving in this aspect.

[tobyb24]

I think JJS confidence has gone and maybe it is time to leave him out of the team and play huddlestone with Zokora with Routledge on the right and play Keane in a free role behind Berba and defoe on saturday. Dont think it will do Boatang or Taarabt any favours coming into our team at the moment as someone has said in previous post will be better bringing them into a winning team! Which sadly could be not for some time looking at the games coming up after saturday!

[BringBack_leGin]

RE the vital football football JJ article...

it fails to mention the best kind of Midfielder, the central one who has flair ad technique, vision and goals, and regardless of pace he can always find space and because he is that good, even though he is in the middle you do not care if he never puts in a tackle because he will be in a side with a workhorse.

Such players include: Hoddle; Platini; Riquelme; Aimar; Arteta; etc

It is a strange phenomenon that these days playmakers seem to start from their own third like Carrick, Pirlo and Xabi Alonso. The traditional playmaker, like the ones I have mentioned play pretty much behind the forwards, and before you say "well its better to have a Gerrard or Lampard who scores goals"... Hoddle regularly scored over 15 in the league alone, one season over 20. Same goes for Platini. ANd in modern times, Riquelme and Baggio (I don't care what anyone says, he was at his best as a midfielder)!

Playmakers playmake from the final third, not the first third!

[rsam8]

I still feel sick after yesterday, and whilst I am not in the sack MJ crowd I do feel that certain questions demand being answered;
Namely, why spend 16.5m in a position where we clearly did NOT need strengthening?
There are other areas which I think perhaps should have been answered, such as adequate cover on the flanks, and without a doubt certain players being shipped out which they have not.

Perhaps we need to rethink and play Steed in the middle with Adel on the Left, to anchor the midfield we have TT, Hud, Zak or even JJ. Definately feel Routledge needs to start on the weekend, as well as JD.

Grrr....I am still so sick and have avoided the usual footy sites and all newspapers until now....will probably stay on SC until we are in top six!!

[mendesstormer]

RE the vital football football JJ article...

it fails to mention the best kind of Midfielder, the central one who has flair ad technique, vision and goals, and regardless of pace he can always find space and because he is that good, even though he is in the middle you do not care if he never puts in a tackle because he will be in a side with a workhorse.

Such players include: Hoddle; Platini; Riquelme; Aimar; Arteta; etc

It is a strange phenomenon that these days playmakers seem to start from their own third like Carrick, Pirlo and Xabi Alonso. The traditional playmaker, like the ones I have mentioned play pretty much behind the forwards, and before you say "well its better to have a Gerrard or Lampard who scores goals"... Hoddle regularly scored over 15 in the league alone, one season over 20. Same goes for Platini. ANd in modern times, Riquelme and Baggio (I don't care what anyone says, he was at his best as a midfielder)!

Playmakers playmake from the final third, not the first third!

Nah. CAn't agree with that. Hoddle was all over the (central areas of the) park. He spent as much time pinging 40 yard passes from deep as he did sitting in behind the forwards. My favourite was the VOLLEYED pass from inside his own half to probably Crooks right down by the penalty box.

[BringBack_leGin]

Nah. CAn't agree with that. Hoddle was all over the (central areas of the) park. He spent as much time pinging 40 yard passes from deep as he did sitting in behind the forwards. My favourite was the VOLLEYED pass from inside his own half to probably Crooks right down by the penalty box.

ok, mistake in the way i made my point. Playmakers can playmake from their own half as an added extra to being able to playmake in the final third, but they are meant to be attacking players, not defensive players

[tingy98]

RE the vital football football JJ article...

it fails to mention the best kind of Midfielder, the central one who has flair ad technique, vision and goals, and regardless of pace he can always find space and because he is that good, even though he is in the middle you do not care if he never puts in a tackle because he will be in a side with a workhorse.

Such players include: Hoddle; Platini; Riquelme; Aimar; Arteta; etc

It is a strange phenomenon that these days playmakers seem to start from their own third like Carrick, Pirlo and Xabi Alonso. The traditional playmaker, like the ones I have mentioned play pretty much behind the forwards, and before you say "well its better to have a Gerrard or Lampard who scores goals"... Hoddle regularly scored over 15 in the league alone, one season over 20. Same goes for Platini. ANd in modern times, Riquelme and Baggio (I don't care what anyone says, he was at his best as a midfielder)!

Playmakers playmake from the final third, not the first third!

don't think the writer wanted to knock JJ down anymore!! :wink:

always wondered if any of the players go onto sites like this and read any of the comments about themselves!!

[fazza]

Remember Dawson is out for 2 weeks, i'd put the Hudd in defence and go with this, yeah Ghaly in midfield, he has a point to prove to Jol and the Fans, better time than any to do it and become a favourite.

......................Cerny

Chimbonda Huddlestone Rocha Gardner

....Routledge Ghaly Murphy Taarabt

...............Defoe Bent

[NeverRed]

Nice to hear some constructive sound criticism :clap:


Me... I love martin jol and martin jol loves me!

At the same time i wish he would do this:

--------------------------------------------------------

A back 4 of whatever we can right now (let's face it, the only first choice there is chimbo at the mo)

Routledge/taraabt.....Zokora.....Hudd.....Marlbranque

Berba.....Bent/Keane/Defoe

Subs:.....Cerny, Rocha (a defender of some sort if rocha has to play - dervitte/ifil), Jenas, Taraabt/routledge, Keane/Defoe/Bent

--------------------------------------------------------

Points:

* We only need one striker on the bench and the one out needs to accept this for the team, they won't always be out and the person left out the squad can be changed each week... but game by game someone has to do it because we need other options on the bench.

* Berba gets a run but needs to accept that if he's not producing he will soon be out too and having to earn his place back. I'm pretty sure he's a model pro, not a diva and if he thinks he's bigger then spurs fuck him anyway!

* Jenas IS a good player, he's played ok in both matches, but not taking the game by the scruff of the neck and forcing his influence so a little rest on the bench and a think about what he's done will help!

* I'd love to see tHudd given a go because he can see passes others can't then hit that pass so well, providing our strikers well with their runs and movement into space, something we are seriously lacking right now. tHudd also like a whack at goal now and then and more often then not these are very good shots. We need this from the middle of the park too.

* No question, we NEED proper wingers playing. Marlbranque on his natural right side please so he can excel rather then be limited at what he does. Let him get crosses in from the right and we will have such a more effective player... Then have either Routledge or Taraabt on the either side, with one to come on if the other doesn't perform... that way they both get game time which they desperately need and we get a hungry, offensive, positive, tricky winger we soooooo need to put the other team on the backfoot and pressure in the box.


If you love me like i love you mart, pllllllleeeeeeeeeaaaaaase do this for me!

We are seriously fucked right now with injuries and waiting for players to build up prem fitness levels... Don't overlook that we do have a massive squad with more backup then most teams can expect to have... we are even suffering now despite this so ladly luck is cleary not on our side... Mmmmm, jut look at our proper lineup and drool and smell good things

Bale.....King.....Dawson/Kaboul.....Chimbo

KPB/Taarabt.....Zokora.....Hudd/Jenas.....Lennon

Berbs/Keane.....Bent/Defoe

Bench: Cerny/Alnwick... Dawson/Kaboul... Hudd/Jenas... Taarabt/KPB/Routledge/Rose... Berbs/Keane/Bent/Defoe

[Fantasticlee]

Robinson as far as I am concerned was majestic, if not for him we would have conceded 7. A bit iffy with a cross or two but who blames him when that's the defence in front of him.
[/quote]

Wow I read this twice to make sure I didn't imagine it!

True he did make a couple of very good saves but no-one has a problem with his shot stopping in terms of reaction saves.
What they question is his decision making.
He doesn't come for crosses enough, his positioning sometimes looks dodgy and he tends to give up on shots too easily.
Yes he may have been flat footed for the third goal but it looked like he could've made the attempt and may have even saved it.
If this was a one off then that's ok but this has happened too many times.
He is not as good a keeper he was when he first came.
Shame cause by all accounts he's a nice guy and I believe he loves playing for us.

Too many people blame the defense all the time.
I see the problem as the midfield. No-one to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and no-one to turn to when the chips are down.
At full strength we have good forwards, good defense but most worryingly an average midfield.

Fingers crossed for Taarabt or KP because the rest don't look up to much and that's all 30 of them!!

[asher]

I don't understand us paying £22m for 2 players who potentially are not going to make the starting line up this year in the form of Bent and KPB. Surely that money would be better spent on attracting a world class midfielder to the Lane even if it meant breaking our wage cap. Surely we could get Riquelme or Deco if we offered the cash and a regular starting place. Riquelme in my mind is still the best attacking midfielder in the world yet he's plying his trade in Argentina. As for Deco his position is under threat at Barca because of Henry, Messi, Ronaldinho & Eto so surely the chance to play in England, in London at the Lane would appeal to him. Yet again today I hear BMJ spouting about the supply to the strikers not being good enough which is stating the blatantly obvious so do something about it!!!!!!! Use the Mido money to get someone in fast. Man we all need a lift.......................:bang:

[battspur]

You dont like Keane & would not have him even as sub, & depite the performances this year & last, you would keep giving Jenas a starting place !!!!!!!!
Listen to the people around you next time you go to a match, or watch it down the pub
You are the muppet.
What complete kak !!

[singis]

i put maalbranque instead of jenas in the middle taarabt and routledge and hudd anchor man. with zokora and jenas we will win nothing. the 16 million should have been spent on a proven attacking midfielder like deco riquelme diego aimar sneider van der vaart etc. we do not have a player like those who can dribble or make the final pass or even scores 10 + goals a season. i think it s there where jol has failed in the transfer market. bale and kaboul ok but i would bought petrov left wing and a good midfield general. and i think zokora too is a flop not only jenas.

[Tazza25]

get davies in got guti get a leftie in aswel!

[yid-down-under]

Much as i'd have to agree that big tone turned up late for the Everton match, i actually didn't think he was too bad against Sunderland. The problem there was the defensive cover provided by midfield.

[BringBack_leGin]

You dont like Keane & would not have him even as sub, & depite the performances this year & last, you would keep giving Jenas a starting place !!!!!!!!
Listen to the people around you next time you go to a match, or watch it down the pub
You are the muppet.
What complete kak !!

I never said I don't like Keane, I said we have four top forwards, three of them were useless, so the one who wasn't useless should definitely start (Defoe). Then, given that all of the other three we poor, his partner should be the one who, despite being on poor form like the other two, is the best player (Berbatov). Then, I argued that we should only have one striker on the bench because two limits our options, and out of Keane and Bent, the one who offers more coming off the Bench would be Bent given that he is able to come on for either Defoe or Berbatov. I also said that Keane should not be axed permanently, but that for now he appears to be the odd one out.

LEARN TO READ

Also, if you read carefully, I am not a Jenas fan, I just happen to think that if we got the creative midfield v Derby that I crave, i.e. Taarabt, Boateng and Routldge all starting, that Jenas would be better placed than Zokora to anchor that midfield because he is faster, a better tackler, workds much harder, shows more commitment, and is not quite as useless a passer, not to mention he is capable of the odd goal.

I repeat, LEARN TO READ!

[nate247]

Got to be honest I thought it was an extremely well written opening post and I agree pretty much with it all bar the Robinson part (because I think the guy is as much a liability as Stalteri is at the minute).

For some bizzare reason I feel quite sorry for Stalteri though as he is clearly a tryer and I have a lot of time for people who make an effort (and he does everytime) but for me he isn't Premiership quality and for a "Professional Player" his crossing is very poor...

I wrote a post yesterday (a bit shell shocked) and not really having a clear idea of the answers (I am normally able to muster some sort of opinion).

Having had 24 hours to mull things over, I find myself still relatively clueless (its like the first time ever I can't think of a possible solution).

I keep asking myself one question though and it bothers me greatly and that question is, how many of our players apart from our Strikers would get into any of the top fours starting 11?

My guess would be King (as he is a living legend) and that would be about it...

We have a lot of talent waiting in the wings but ultimately its unproven and we have a manager that seems hesitant to blood the youth.

I'm not doom and gloom guys by any means and as yet haven't thrown my toys out of the pram like a few have but I think I may have had a large slap in the face of reality. Maybe we arn't as close to breaking the top 4 as we originally thought due to a lack of "proven" quality in our starting 11?

If we blood the yound players in preperation for a charge next season would that be better do we think as its apparent that there are at least half of our starting 11 that are not players worthy of being in any of the top 4 teams!

(The above is a kind of question come statement) told you I was still confused :-) lol

[doom]

After going to the match, I've spent a good deal of time looking through the sc forums and this is the nearest we've got to an accurate assessment of the last 2 games, however I still disagree with much of it.

We have not been entirely inept, the 1st period of yesterdays match we played much the better football - heads went down second half, fans turned sour and the performance was dire from then on (interesting that in Bobby Smith's half time interview on the successful team of the 60's he mentioned that "then the spurs supporters used to get behind the team"!)

For their 1st goal gardner was pushed out the way (he needs to learn from this) & some very dodgy refereeing lead to the 3rd goal, circumstances that made us lose confidence.

gardner, malbranque and keane actually performed very well, I've been particularly impressed with malbranque in both games, getting round defenders and showing some determination. Pitty he had little to pass or cross to (several posts mention poor crosses, but what else was going). I am not convinced that routeledge would do well on the right, based on last night's short stint - did nothing! while lennon is out i would opt for jenas or ghaly or taarabt on the right. Obviously 3 strikers are not working and we only need 1 on the bench, the strikers need link up from midfield - taarabt & the prince. tanio also needs to get fit for more than a game. huddlestone is a superb passer of the ball and is a must under the circumstances. We also need midfield and defence to support attacks not sit back marking no one. defence? not many options there but as soon as dawson/lee are back then get stalteri out and we need greater support from midfield when the opposition is actually attacking. attack? could be any combo, i'd go for keane/bent against derby based on what i've seen. defoe should either start or not be on the bench - never plays well off the bench.

......Robinson
Chimbonda Dawson Gardner Lee
Taarabt Tanio Huddleston Malbranque
.............Keane Bent
Bench: Cerny, Jenas, Prince, Berbatov, Rocha

[StokeSpur]

Some good points but i dont like calling our players muppets and the like, if Zokora (in your opinion) isnt playing to his potential then there is a reason why.

Regardless of the injurys and available players, we do not even look like we have a system in place that we work too.

Do we train and plan new tactics to combat and beat the team were up against each week or do we just do the same thing all the time in training regardless of the opposition?

Jol has had years to implement HIS style and HIS systems, to teach the players tactics, presumably we buy the players that fit into HIS 'way of playing'?

Sven put a team of 'nobodys' and 'never heard of's' together in a week and made then play as one. Different class in team management.

How many times have we got to wach newly premoted teams take us apart by far superior work ethic, planning for us and sheer determination?

I often think that Jol is too soft when are the bollockings comming? when does he get animated on the toch line to feed the passion through to his players?

I hope he realises that we have the talent to fulfill the promise it shows on paper and i hope he is big enough to admit his mistakes and not be bullish and continue the current trend of selection, bench and subs because it will kill us.

Derby will be doing their homework on us as we speak, are we doing it on them?

COYS lets start here.

[danielneeds]

I keep asking myself one question though and it bothers me greatly and that question is, how many of our players apart from our Strikers would get into any of the top fours starting 11?

My guess would be King (as he is a living legend) and that would be about it...

We have a lot of talent waiting in the wings but ultimately its unproven and we have a manager that seems hesitant to blood the youth.



Yeah but that is cos we are not a top 4 team and haven't been one since the 80's... This is still a building process, and the shortcut way of buying some 29 year old "world stars" looking for a last pay day may seem inviting, particularly when we are all distraught becuase of the poor start to this season, but buying young hungry talent and moulding it into the stars of tomorrow is the only way we can become a true force.

Dawson, Bent, Taraabt, Bale these are players who can star for the next 8 years.... The only mistakes I blame Jol for are not replacing Robbo and buying a a proper water carrier to sit infront of the back four, someone who could do job like Christian Poulsen does for Sevilla, lets the attacking players go and play...

[nav007_2000]

sell Jenas

[carlos10]

sorry guys more bad news...berbatov injured for 2 weeks and kaboul out for 1 month...better news bale and lee and dawson might be ready for saturday...ANYWAYS WHO EVER PLAYS LETS ALL GET BEHIND THEM FOR SATURDAY COYS

[Meds]

I've enjoyed reading the posts above and I think, a few diverging opinions on certain players apart, there is a general consensus on where we are going wrong. Let us hope that BMJ is a reader!

This may be slightly off-point, but I think is still relevant to our general malaise:

I know he's injured, but as a senior professional, experienced defender and (most of all) club captain, why was Ledley King sitting in the Sky studio at half-time chatting with Richard Keys?

Should he not have been in the dressing room with his team providing some insight? Do the management not have an interest in other opinions, particularly when defending is clearly our Number 1 concern? Did Roy Keane never offer an analysis alongside Fergie?

May be not a big point, but it's this sort of media-first attitude which creates a culture where football is second to PR, and I think we need to be focusing on the football right now.

[vigospur]

Will be good to see Lee back. He will take some of the heat off Jenas on this site. I give him one game before the "not fit to wear the shirt" brigade slaughter him.
What is really bugging me is that we have a Club which makes an enormous investment in young players coupled with a manager who seems reluctant to play them. Something wrong here surely?
What must the current crop of youngsters think if they can't get in this team. At least we would get some drive and energy. Some of our senior players have looked completely disinterested to me. Did Chimbonda want to go to Chelsea? Is Berbatov waiting for UEFA Cup?
Massive changes for Saturday would be silly but I think
Huddlestone alongside Zokora or Jenas.
Routledge or Taraabt wide.
Defoe and Bent up front. With England squad upcoming these two would run their socks off right now. I thought Defoe did well last night although too desperate to take advantage of the 30 minutes he was given.

[Chimbo!]

He is so regimented in his ways, he has an obsession with hardworking midfielders because he was one! Why cant he play taraabt cos hes better then malbranque who for sum reason has no end product, how many crosses did he screw up yesterday. I have never seen a group of fans look so disgrantled and upset at half time and in the 2nd half at WHL. The team managed to sap the life out of the crowd because there was no insipration, nothing to lift us off our feet (except the final whistle). BTW Robbie Keane should not be dropped as he was the one player linking the team up. Because of the shiteness of our midfield he had to do their job. He also shows a level of passion that a lot of the others just dont. He is a Spurs man through and through and deserves more then any other another chance. Not that i think he needs one anyway. Keano!

[nate247]

Yeah but that is cos we are not a top 4 team and haven't been one since the 80's... This is still a building process, and the shortcut way of buying some 29 year old "world stars" looking for a last pay day may seem inviting, particularly when we are all distraught becuase of the poor start to this season, but buying young hungry talent and moulding it into the stars of tomorrow is the only way we can become a true force.

Dawson, Bent, Taraabt, Bale these are players who can star for the next 8 years.... The only mistakes I blame Jol for are not replacing Robbo and buying a a proper water carrier to sit infront of the back four, someone who could do job like Christian Poulsen does for Sevilla, lets the attacking players go and play...Mate, I don't want you to take this the wrong way (and I honestly mean that) but I don't need to be taught how to suck eggs (couldn't think of a better analogy sorry). I am fully aware of the reason's why we buy good young promising players and fully back our philosophy.

What bothers me though is that as a "squad" we have talent but there are just too many players that I thought stood a chance of making that step up but it appears to be too big a leap for them.

All I was saying (putting it another way) is that perhaps we were all a little too expectant this season and maybe the best we can hope for (rather than CL) is again another UEFA place.

I think in a few years we could well be a force if (and thats a big if) the youngsters we have bought are able to fullfill their potential. I think they will but its seasoned veterans like Jenas, Stalteri, Zokora, Gardener, Murphy, Ghally (the list goes on) that worry me.

Our more experienced players should be the ones leading the way. I'd love to see Davids back at this rate... at least the guy broke up play and had a bit of fire in his belly... unlike Zokora who falls over at every opportunity and Jenas who appears to be getting weaker and more of a push over each season that passes.

[JoeT]

Interesting article BBleG, and I agree with many of your arguments....especially liked your comments on Robinson. However, on looking at other positional changes I do have some questions/comments:
1. Back line. How do you know that Dawson will be fit? The last I heard he had ligament damage. If he is indeed
ready to go, yes I like your back line. Lee - knowing how hard he works - could, as you say, be ready also.
2. Midfield. Routledge and Taraabt each side; yeh...you made strong cases there . But Jenas as a holding midfielder? Surely his strength is his engine/ ablilty to cover the field...wouldn't a holding role negate his main attribute? And on what do you base your opinion that he is a "competent tackler"? IMO either Tainio (first choice) or even Malbranque should be the 'terrier' in the middle protecting our weakened centre backs. If, one of these started as one center-mid. your idea about pairing him with
Boateng could work, but for me I would prefer to see how Huddlestone did there first (with Boateng on the bench.)
3.Strikers...agree with you, Defoe does deserve to start; Berbatov? O.K. his class will eventually show through as you have said.

[DogsOfWar]

My feelings are not particularly drawn to the incompetence of players but of the system. Both Stalteri and Malbranque are playing out of position on the left, along with Tainio/Keane on the right. No wonder the team loses it's shape and discipline.

If Lennon is injured then bring in Routledge, he might not be the player we hoped he was but he is a like for like replacement and understands the job. The team system doesn't change and he will be far more disciplined.

As for left back I seem to remember Berchiche getting player of the tournament at a recent youth tournament so why not give him a go. We did a similar thing with Ifil a couple of years ago and he seemed perfectly competent.

As for the left we have two choices, we either play a solid midfielder like Tainio (probably best if we went with Berchiche) in there and replace one of the CMs with Huddlestone or we keep the middle two and play Taraabt.

OK, the down side is that they may be young and inexperienced but then what's the worst that can happen? We lose, seeing as we have just been stuffed twice it isn't any worse and I'd rather get stuffed trying to blood kids than perservere with square pegs in round holes.

[nate247]

Just watching Match Of The Day... as much as it pains me to say, Mourino is so good tactically.

1-0 down at Reading at half time, can see the game is not going his way. Pulls Ferrer & Sidwell off after only 45 mins and within 5 minutes they are 1-2 up.

Just being hypothetical but I wonder what sort of performances he or indeed another of the top 4 managers would be able to draw from our current crop of players?

That to me is Jol's major failing. Tactics and his substitutions!

Anyway, enough negativity. I'm gearing myself up for Saturday when I will be travelling to the Lane in full support!!!

COME ON YOU SPURS!!!

[spurs_viola]

The point about injuries clouds the issue quite a bit, and it is too easy an excuse for too many people here.
Chelski had more than a half of real first team players out against full strength Man U in charity shield season opener, but they didn't collapse like a house of cards, drawing 1-1.
Tactics, organisation and application are often more important than the available personnel - as Sunderland and Reading showed against us and Man U.

I repeat my point: Stalteri and Gardner did not suddenly become so inept - it was obvious to an objective person even 2 seasons ago that they lacked the nous and quality for a top level. A decisive action would have been to put them on transfer list and try hard to replace them with a more adequate cover with enough skill and awareness for a Prem League defender. I don't believe it would have been so very hard to find such cover in 2 years. I also do not believe that it has been impossible to develop someone like Dorian Dervitte into the proper cover for our CMs, even allowing for his lengthy lay-off with injury. He is less experienced, but clearly has more quality and potential than either Gardner or Stalteri.
So to say now that they HAD TO play - as our first choice defenders are out - is only skimming the surface. The truth is such players should not stay on club's books year after year, filling the ranks but not providing the quality. Same applies to Murphy.

On the point of decisiveness, in today's matches involving Chelsea and Portsmouth, it didn't work out for their teams in the 1st half, so Mourinho and Redknapp made 2 changes AT HALF-TIME instead of dallying until 75th minute - and changed the course of the match. Mourinho is always decisive in this: if he sees something clearly is not working, he does not wait until 20-25 min into 2nd half - he makes positive changes to make things happen. How often has Martin Jol made decisive, positive double substitutions at half time, even when things were clearly not working after first half?

[pistolP]

Good article, but i do disagree with you on Jenas and Zokora. I think Zokora will be better holding than Jenas as jenas is easily brush off ball very often than zokora, he gives away more than zokora. Moreover, i think Zokora is a better Tackler than Jenas-he can not tackle to save his life even though he has better stamina than Zok.

[pistolP]

You dont like Keane & would not have him even as sub, & depite the performances this year & last, you would keep giving Jenas a starting place !!!!!!!!
Listen to the people around you next time you go to a match, or watch it down the pub
You are the muppet.
What complete kak !!

Insults,insults,insults'':oops: :bang:

[pistolP]

Interesting Article written by someone on vitalfootball about JJ

Following the last two matches the spotlight of blame has rested firmly on Jermain Jenas. The problem with Jenas is not that he`s a bad player but that he is simply average.

He has no distinguishing features to his game. To my mind there are four different types of central midfielder (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#).

Firstly, there is the attacking midfielder such as Lampard who is always powering forward hovering on the edge of the area, having long shots and often passing the forwards in the attack.

Secondly, the defensive player such as Gattusso who destroys play and simply lays the ball off to a superior passer (in his case for club and country Andrea Pirlo (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#)).

Thirdly, the deep lying central midfielder, such as Pirlo and Carrick who sit in front of the defence receiving the ball and dispatching accurate passes both long and short range whilst seeming to have infinite time on the ball.

Lastly, the ultimate midfielders such as Gerrard and Essien who can do everything and run themselves into the ground every game for the team (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#). Jenas fits into none of these categories, he does not push forward to support the attack. His defensive work is poor, he is often out-muscled and his passes even over ten yards regularly go awry.

The best thing for Jenas to do is work on his forward runs, positioning and shooting. I personally would be tempted to push Jenas onto the right side of midfield (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#) whilst Lennon is injured as he is able to dribble to some extent and he has an uncanny turn of pace which he rarely demonstrates in the middle of the park. Also by playing him out wide it may allow him to regain some confidence in his own ability as the pressure would not be as high. It is easy to forget he is still quite young and definitely has potential.

Unfortunately, Jenas has not been helped by Martin Jol waxing a lyrical about him being on a par with Gerrard (http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=78491#) and Lampard and a candidate for the England team. It is one thing to 'big-up` your players to the press but too much can leave both manager and player looking ridiculous.

Totally agree with the last paragraph!!!


Very, very good points made.

[batigol]

Good post. This is not bashing in anyway but raising questionable points about what is happening to our squad right now. I posted a similar post in the In defence of Jol thread. Its not as simple as just switching the manager but serious questions are being asked of the squad and it must be said that these questions has been there since last season. Berb's red hot form last season covered up the issue for a period of time but it can't hide it forever. I just live in hope that somehow, someday, BMJ will actually do something about what he has been complaining about; the lack of creativity and final ball. That does not equate to chucking Keane on RM, or putting two strikers on the bench, or playing Jenas and Zok together in CM. He should know by now that all these measures just don't cover the holes in the midfield. Sometimes I wish he can be as daring to change as Mourinho. I honestly admire Mourinho for that as for all his ego, he has the guts to admit it when something doesn't work and act to change it immediately.

[batigol]

Just to illustrate, this is what Daily Mail (yeah I know, they are crap but still) said about Chelski's victory over Reading last night.

"They scored 31 times in the Premiership last season and underlined their importance to Chelsea with the clinical strikes that took them level with Everton and Manchester City at the top of the table.

To do it, Mourinho had to make sweeping half-time changes, but he was rewarded for his bravery. He sacrificed Steven Sidwell and Paulo Ferreira, sent Shaun Wright-Phillips to right back and added Claudio Pizarro to his attack. Until then, Reading had been rampant."

It would be good to see some sweeping changes for a start. Btw, Chelski's injury problems are just as horrendous or more so than us.

[sunnydelight786]

Simple facts are that mourinho is a far superior manager to BMJ. As much as we love him there is no getting away from the truth.

[klinsmania72]

T he team should be:

Robinson, Chimboda, Dawson ? (Huddlestone), Rocha, Lee, Routhledge, Jenas, Zokora, Tarabt, Bent, Defoe
Subs: Cerny, Keane, Gardner, Malbraque, Murphy, Boateng?

[Shirtfront]

Seeing as there is a defence of Jol, surely there needs to be an equally thought out attack of Jol (and I am not part of the Jol Out Brigade)...

OK, No King or Dawson, so start with Kaboul, fair enough. However, against Sunderland, Gardner was useless as a Centre back, and Stalteri was useless at left back. The solution... put Gardner at left back where he is not only a quick natural left footer, but also less of a danger to our goal, get Stalteri out completely, and put Rocha at centre back who has never proved himself to be less than competent.

OK, Chimbonda is by all accounts a very good right back... why have we not seen this since last January? Jol, you wanted him, it took an entire summer and £6m to sign him, and I don't know about other fans, but I could not imagine a less interested right back, and I've seen Steven Carr after George Graham left. Give me a Taricco any day!

OK, all our left sided players are injured at present... but which players have left the club this summer I wonder? Emil Halfredsson, Charlie Daniels, Reto Ziegler, and Mark Yeates... all wide left players, one of which was once upon a time highly thought of at the club. And who is the next player to leave... that's right folks, the LEFT FOOTED Mido. I'm not saying any of these players are good enough, I'm just pointing out something that appears to follow little or no logic whatsoever.

OK, I'm as thrilled as the next guy that we have 4 top forwards. But that is a problem when the manager doesn't have the bottle to leave one of them out completely. Our bench will forever be limited if we persist with trying to have 4 strikers in the 16 every time. And playing Keane in midfield does not solve this problem, it just puts a good forward into a position where he is ineffective.

The midfield. After Sunderland Jol bemoaned our lack of creativity, and yet Jenas, Steed and Zokora still started. Jol, maybe a midfield would look a bit better on the creative front if you played someone capable of finding a clever pass, or creating some space. From what I saw, in pre-season the young Taarabt taught eveyone a lesson in what an attacking midfielder should be... so why not leave him out of the 16 altogether! He's only a quick, strong dribbler who can pass cross and shoot. What possible use could that be! He should be on the bench minimum, and in the absence of Lennon, our only other exciting midfielder, he should be starting! Especially away to a poor promoted side, and at home against the team that used to be our whipping boys.

The midfield continued... Jenas and Zokora in the middle provides how much scope for a pass? NONE! Jenas is neat, he works hard, is full of energy, and despite certain accusations, a competent tackler with decent positioning. Sounds like an anchorman to me. Ok, he scores goals, so does Gilberto, so did Keane, so did bloody Sherwood! He will never create. Keep him in as a defensive midfielder, but put him next to a playmaker so that he doesn't have to concentrate on trying to create. Zokora is fast and can turn on the ball. As yet I see nothing else that he can do. DROP HIM! Play a creative player instead, maybe Taarabt, or when he's ready, if he is what I hope he is, Boateng.

You may ask why that last paragraph should be a criticism of Jol and not of the players, well it is a criticism of Jol because he wanted these players, he bought them, he continues to play them. £7m and £8m respectively... sounds like a Rosicky and an Arteta to me, or maybe an Aimar and a Diego. (those are all those players recent transfer fees). I'm not saying I want two flair players in the middle, I'm saying a want one with a workhorse. Jenas is a workhorse, Zokora is a muppet.

And, may I ask, what is the point in a forward like Bent who feeds off of spaces when there is no midfielder in the team (like Lennon or Taarabt) who can create space, and no midfielder in the team (like Boateng or Huddlestone) who can play a ball into space. I am sure that none of you will be shocked that my largest assault has focused on the midfield.

Now, and I thought this before the match, but I especially think it now, in the absence of Lennon, given that Jol clearly does not think Taarabt or Boateng are quite ready to be thrown in (I am praying that Boateng ends up usurping Zokora from the team while Taarabt, though not a lefty, can make the left his own), are Malbranque (on his weaker side albeit) and Tainio really better equipped than Routledge to prove some width? I doubt it. In fact, Routledge should most certainly start the next game, as should one of the other two (if I had my way it would be both but hey, not going to happen, it will probably be neither).

Now I hate suggesting teams, but I will anyway, just to stimulate some more conversation.....

how about:-

..................Robinson
Chimbonda Dawson Rocha Lee
Routledge Jenas Boateng Taarabt
.............Defoe Berbatov

Bench: Cerny, Gardner, Huddlestone, Ghaly, Bent

Robinson as far as I am concerned was majestic, if not for him we would have conceded 7. A bit iffy with a cross or two but who blames him when that's the defence in front of him.

Chimbonda, much as I dislike him profusely, is our best available right back

Dawson is apparently going to be fit. I would like him with Kaboul because Kaboul looks awesome, but a pulled hamstring is probably going to keep him out for a game or two at least.

Lee, from the pictures on the site, is very much back in training. He is unlikely to be fully fit, but for goodness sake we need him like never before.

Routledge came on and dribbled every time, even though sometimes without success. His crossing was pretty good and he looked hungry. Time to give him a chance!

Jenas is the lesser of two evils in the middle, but I think he can be a good anchorman, but nothing more.

Boateng will have had more than enough time to train back to fitness, I pray that he is ready.

Taarabt was our best midfielder by a mile in pre-season. He deserves the chance, especially ahead of last nights lot.

Defoe came on and we actually had some intent, and he did more than the other three did in the entire game, so he should start.

Berba, Keane and Bent were all equally ineffective, but on the basis that Berbatov is the best of the three I think he should partner Defoe. And of the other two, Bent should be the one to make the bench because he gives us far more options.

For those of you who believe that we should keep some consistency in the midfield, why? so that we can consistently play badly? this is not a case of gelling, they've had that period, this is a case of none of them being good enough. A more than winnable game against Derby provides the opportunity to make such bold changed.

For those of you who think I'm mad leaving Keane out, what did he do in either game to inspire any confidence? You may reply with "What did Berbatov do?" but Berbatov is a better passer, dribbler, shooter, he is stronger, faster, better in the air, more aware and is pretty much the only reason to go to White Hart Lane right now. So yes, I would get rid of Keane, not permanently, but for this next game.

For those of you who think that Dawson and Lee should not be rushed, I've seen us lose at home to Derby County before. Its not a pretty sight.

For those of you who think I am being harsh on Stalteri... against Sunderland he was skinned for the goal. Against Everton he showed a winger who was already well into our area so much space and time that it was impossible not to find his player with the cross. He is a liability, especially out of position at left back.

For those of you who wonder why I dislike Zokora so much, when was the last time he actually produced anything worthwhile, defensively or in attack?

I am very angry with our negative, stubborn manager. I know he will never implement the changes for which I pray, and I know that when I see the line up at 2:50pm on Saturday while sitting in my usual seat in the West stand upper, I am again going to be severely depressed.

Its going to be a long nine months boys!

COME ON YOU SPURS!

Good post. The only thing I really disagree with is criticising Jol for not getting the best out of Chimbo. I think the player bears the responsibility for doing his best and if, as he can't, the Manager cannot drop him it is difficult to blame Jol for not inspiring him to previous heights.

I also disagree with the significance you attribute to the left footed players we let go. On the evidence I saw, none of them (especially Mido) would improve on what we have played so far. Left footed or not. There is more to playing Left midfield than using your left foot (Andy's Reid and Sinton, take a bow).

Finally, I think you are too harsh on yourself. I don't think your post is really an attack on Jol, so much as pointing out the mistakes he has made. That's not an attack, it's just analysis. And mistakes can be forgiven....if they are learned from.

There is no question in my mind that Routledge and Taraabt need to be tried. Even if it doesn't work (ie it is another "mistake"), at least it would be a different one. And we can learn, by trial and error, what the best balance is. Who is ready and who is not. Keeping on playing the same, patently deficient midfield (and it is only our midfield I would complain about) is simply not an option.

[Shirtfront]

ok, mistake in the way i made my point. Playmakers can playmake from their own half as an added extra to being able to playmake in the final third, but they are meant to be attacking players, not defensive players

Or to put a finer point on it, playmakers are at their most valuable when they play in the final third - even though they may do it from wherever play happens to be.

Which is exactly why Fergie has signed Hargreaves. To allow Carrick to push further up the pitch where his ability to retain and recycle posession, as well as spot the killer pass, will benefit the team more.

Personally, I would like to see Huddlestone use in that role. Everyone sees him as a defensive midfielder - but why? Because he's big?

For me, he could become like a (very) big Riquelme. He isn't that quick (and certainly not quick enough to close down the quickest attacking midfielders) - but he can pass, shoot and hold it up. So why not let him work in behind the front two?

Anything to get some creativity in the final third.

[Parmenio]

This is just knee jerk reaction stuff. The team suggested would be make a bad situation much worse.

Wholesale changing of the team never works. The margins in such games are much smaller than most people realise... what you need is tweaks, not mass changes.

The only thing I think mentioned in one of the follow-up posts that has some validity, would be to use huddlestone at some point for some creativity... but Huddlestone is still developing, and can be as much of a weakness as a strength to the team. He needs to be used selectivly.

People also forget that Everton are masters at defending a lead. We conceeded soft goals that I felt were mostly down to certain individuals who would be nowhere near our first team setup if other players were fit.

[HandOfMod]

Both of the teams we have lost to have defensive organisation as a cornerstone of their strategy, both employing a minimum of one man in midfield dedicated to breaking down opposition attacks and laying the ball off to an available, nearby team mate.

It seems we are badly missing someone who performs this role within the team, either down to a lack natural of ability in this area, or inappropriate direction from the coaching staff.

Jol has spoken before about the idea of a 'formation' not being particularly useful when describing the character of a side, describing players in terms of 'blocks' that are either attack or defence orientated.

Both Zokora and Jenas seem to be caught in no mans land between the defensive and attacking roles when they play in the centre together.

It seems to me we need one of them (i suggest Zokora) to play a highly disciplined defensive role, and use jenas and one of the strikers to provide link play between the defensive block and the attacking block.

When the striker comes deep, it allows jenas to push on past him and threaten the opposition defence.

Not a complete theory but it just seems too messy and undisciplined in the centre as it stands.

[BringBack_leGin]

I dont buy all this blocks hooey!

I want a throwback to 25 years ago, when a team like us would employ two natural wide men who can put in crosses from deep or get to the byline and cross from there. Then, in the middle, one attack minded, all flair playmaker who's job is merely to release the wingers and put in through balls to the forwards and score a fair few goals as well. Then there will be two forwards who may occasionally help out with assists and hold up play, but their only real concern will be to score goals, goals and more goals. All of this will be balanced by one defensive midfielder who chases everything, has no time for thrills and does all the dirty work so that the players can play. If you cannot imagine it, then imagine this:

..............Robinson
Chimbo Dawson King Bale (a good defence, no?)
Waddle Hoddle Mackay Ginola
........Greaves Klinsmann

Now simpley replace the midfield and attack with:

Lennon Boateng Kaboul Taarabt
..............Bent Berbatov

Kaboul was great in defence, but if we can keep king fit (big if i know), or even sign Davies, then maybe Kaboul can be a Vieira for us, with Taarabt Boateng and Lennon being the Pires, Llundberg and Fabregas that saw Arsenal go a season unbeaten while playing the best football the premiership has ever seen.