Why we play 4-5-1 or "You don't know what you're doing"

[Rob]

As the chant of "You don't know what you're doing" echoed from the away end of Fratton Park, we were 2-0 down to what should have been a fragile Pompey side. With what looked like no chance of getting back into the game, all that was left was time for reflection on what had gone oh so very wrong in our win-less season.

The problem may very well be that Ramos indeed doesn't know what he's doing with the personnel we have. As soon as the team was announced it seemed clear to apparently everyone apart from the manager that there were several strange choices in there. Gilberto back from the wilderness to replace the injured Bale and provide support down the left of midfield? A 5-man midfield with Pavlyuchenko again on his own up front but with no sign of our supporting midfielders? Dawson brought back into the centre of defence in replacement of King with Corluka shifted back to the right and the impressive Gunter missing out yet again.

Does Ramos know what he's doing? All we can analyse is what's put in front of us and that's what I'll attempt to do in this column, taking a look at our season so far, focusing on the squad and the apparent deficiencies which an ultimately poor transfer window has left us with.

As I see it, the problem we have is a complicated one. We certainly have quality players but do we have the right players? Take Zokora for example. In a 2-man midfield he’s poor at best. He often struggles with the simple pass, losing valuable possession carelessly and fails to get into space for his team-mates to pass to so rather than relieving pressure we get forced into mistakes.

Contrast this with his performances in a 3-man midfield and he’s like a completely different player (and maybe the one we thought we were buying). With more time to sit back and read the play, his positioning in front of the defence is superb. He’s always there to receive the short pass back from his midfield team-mates when they’re under pressure and with more options in midfield in front of him to play the pass to he looks calm on the ball. When he picks the ball up from deep and surges forward with it, not only does he relieve pressure on us, he makes a significant attacking contribution.

Sound great doesn’t it, so what’s the problem? With a 5-man midfield as we’ve put out in the last few games it means playing 1 up front and unfortunately we just don’t seem to be getting the system right. I’ll start off by saying I’m fast becoming a huge fan of Pavlychenko. He’s worked tirelessly on his own up front with shockingly bad support and shown real heart, a complete contrast to a certain sulking Bulgarian. He may not have the class of Berbatov but he’s certainly an accomplished striker as his record shows and if we manage to get things right I think he could have a far bigger impact for us than he did and become dare I saw prolific. So how do we go about getting it right?

If we’re going to play with only 1 striker as it seems our midfield setup almost deems necessary then it’s up to the rest of the midfield to support but that’s just not happening. We have two direct players, GDS and Lennon, who despite turning around every performance when introduced Ramos seems intent on not playing and instead it takes a poor first half before they’re brought on and allowed to influence our play. Is the problem here that we have too many midfielders without having the right ones?

Bentley and Lennon both clearly prefer the right side of midfield but are very different players. Bentley, although not showing it recently, can put in a great cross from deep and it was really expected that out front two would feed on those crosses all day. Of course our “front two” are now playing for Liverpool and Manchester United and instead we’re left with Bentley playing poorly in a system where he’s not necessarily suited. When he does put in a good cross (and these will get better as he settles and his confidence returns), there’s only the lone figure of Pavlychenko fighting a losing battle against strong defensive partnerships trying to make space for himself to get any chance at goal. In contrast, Lennon’s major weakness is his poor crossing and despite some recent improvement in this area, it’s really his pace and direct play that’s his major benefit, especially in a system where the striker needs this support running from deep. Similarly, the direct play of GDS is often a welcome addition to a side that’s simply struggling to get further forward and fill the space between midfield and attack. Thankfully, unlike Tarrabt who his style does have a passing resemblance too and despite his small frame, GDS is certainly not just a “luxury” player. He works hard for the ball, when he gets it it takes a lot to get him off it and when that does happen he isn’t afraid to come back and make amends by tacking and fighting for it. If it wasn’t for this I would be really worried that we have 3 players with only 1 position to accommodate but because of GDS’s versatility and with Lennon looking more comfortable on the left then it may not be so bad after all.

I’m not so sure if the same can be said about our other midfield options, namely Jena and Modric). It would seem to be an easy choice between the two. While still acclimatising to the pace of the premiership, Modric is by the far the more accomplished midfielder and with a touch of the Ossie Ardiles about him, our midfield and whole system should be built around getting the best from who’s going to prove to be one of the best midfielders we’ve seen for years. The problem here is vice-captain Jenas who Ramos clearly sees something in that many fans don’t. It may just be a case of once Modric is fully fit that Jenas will play less and less of a part but for years now we’ve waited for him to reach his potential and to be fair in some games we have seen glimpses of the player he could have been for us but in my opinion it’s now time to cut our losses with him. If he was going to step up to the next level he would have done it by now and persisting with him means we can’t settle on a system or style of play that works.

I’m trying to base my opinions here on more than the typical knee-jerk response and on the back of an absolutely awful performance against Portsmouth it might not be the right time to be critical of Jenas whilst praising O’Hara but the latter has shown far more fight and spirit befitting a captain of our club and if we do persist with a 3-man midfield I’d be more than happy for those 3 to consist of Modric, Zokora and O’Hara with Jenas being moved on.

It’s coming to the stage of this column now where I just put all my cards on the table and name my first choice 11 but a few comments on our defence is maybe in order first. Gomes, superb. I was worried that we might be signing the “Brazilian David James” (and that’s the “dodgy” David James, not the one who just kept another clean sheet against us) and while he’s already shown a few eccentricities such as a penchant for punching rather than taking the easy catch I’m confident in saying that he’s the best keeper I’ve seen play for us (which admittedly only goes back as far as Thorstvedt or so). In front of him Woodgate is a rock and alongside King (oh Ledley, where forth art though?) forms possibly the best defensive partnership in the premiership. Unfortunately despite repeated assurances from the club with regards to his fitness, King still looks to have problems and the last thing we need now is an unsettled defence to accompany the chopping and changing with the rest of the team. Having said that, Corluka looks an adequate replacement at least in the short term and with Hutton and Bale that completes one of the strongest defences in the league. Unfortunately, and some people may forget this, we’ve been missing 3 of our first choice back 4 for much of the season with Bale and Hutton joining King on the treatment table. However, with Corluka and Gunter we have adequate backup with the only weak-link at left back where BAE still isn’t convincing many fans that he really has a future at WHL.

So time to pick my team. I honestly feel that the team below should still be capable of finishing in the top 6 this season.

Gomes



Hutton Woodgate Corluka Bale



Bentley Zokora Modric O’Hara Lennon



Pavlychenko



Gunter as a temporary replacement for Hutton doesn’t weaken that line-up significantly and leaves a strong bench. GDS can replace any of Bentley, Lennon or even O’Hara in that midfield depending on the opposition but it’s vital that Modric provides the link between midfield and attack that we’ve been sorely lacking so far this season. As I explained above, whilst I dislike playing 1 up front as it leaves Pavlychenko isolated, with the personnel available in our midfield, it’s extremely understandable why Ramos is persisting with it. If we moved to 4-4-2, while the front line improves significantly with Bent and Pavlychenko both capable of running the channels and dragging defences apart, the midfield just doesn’t work. If we had a defensive midfielder who was more comfortable than Zokora (Veloso or even Diarra may be the answer) then we could revert to 4-4-2 without too many problems and whether that happens in January is something we’ll have to wait in see.

[ziggy]

Great analysis, I thought we looked comfortable today until their goal, we didn't look threatening but I didn't think they did either to be honest. The mien trouble is when we get the ball in midfield we just stroke it around and don't get anywhere. Even O'hara who as you say get's stuck in and will fight all day, gets the ball and turns back and sideways when an incisive forward ball is what is needed. I'm still willing to be patient and the last thing we need now is a reaction from the board and another new manager. Jenas does frustrate me, he does some great things but doesn't seem to be able to play that killer ball that the lone forward so craves. Personally I quite like BAE, he needs to improve, sure but some of play today was excellent.

Also thought the officials were rank, I'm sure I saw the ball go out of play a couple of times, including in the build up to their penalty.

[BringBack_leGin]

I am 91.11111% recurring in agreement with you, with the 8.99999% recurring difference being that I would have Giovani ahead of Bentley in there.

In Jenas, Bent and Bentley we have three signings who we brought in simply because they were the English flavour of the month at the time, all over priced, all not good enough.

Until Hutton is fit, I would see Gunter in his place. I would only play King in europe where Corluka is cup tied, and otherwise have him on the bench. And when fit i would always have Bale at left back, not left wing (though I don't mind Ekotto).

In January I'm not at all sure how we can possibly fix this. A kosher DM? A top class CB? A brilliant link man to play with Pav (who knows, maybe we can still get Arshavin).

It's a mess right now but I stand by my prediction that 4 games from now we will not be in the bottom 4. Come full time v Arsenal we will be 16th or above and on the rise.

[grittyspur1]

Good shout, Rob, and a reasoned and mature analysis of our current problems that may or may not force our club into crisis, depending who you talk to! I agree with your comments on Gomes, Jenas and Modric. The last one is more wishful thinking, as we really have not seen enough of him, and it's time to get him back on the pitch as far as I'm concerned.
It seems that so many posters on this site agree on what our three biggest problems are:
1) What the fukc's up with Ledley King, and when are we going to replace him?
2) Why haven't we replaced Carrick with a modern 'holding' midfielder? (Sorry, folks- as much as I like Zokora and The Hudd- they are not 'like-for-like' replacements for MC)
3) How do you replace Keane, Berbatov and, come to think of it, Defoe? Surely what was on display today at Fratton Park is not the answer.
I just wish that Ramos/Commoli/Levy/Gus/Whoever would answer those three questions first before they try to do anything else. Or else, we will be taking one step forward and then two steps backwards for the foreseable future.
Listening to Pompey today and imagining Defoe's enthusiasm and industry on the pitch was enough to make me feel sick to my stomach.
coys

[pistol14]

Gomes was superb? What games have you been watching? I have seen nothing to suggest is that he is any better than Robbo. How many times did robinson palm a ball out straight to an attacker and Gomes did exactly that today!

Other than that i would agree with most of the article.

[riversmonkey]

After two cups wins and a clean sheet I think Ramos was banking on another smash and grab job to continue the slow improvement. Which in theory would have set us up nicely for 'easier' fixtures against Bolton, Stoke and Hull. At this moment in time none of those upcoming fixtures look winnable, when you look at the physical and workmanlike qualities of those teams. We are likely to be outmuscled, outfought and in dire straits.

Ramos needs to go, a new perspective and an injection of energy and new ideas is needed to revitalize what I imagine is a shellshocked and despondent dressing room. I'm not saying Ramos is a terrible coach or that Poyet is an inadequate assistant but for whatever reason it hasn't worked. We can throw excuses around but lets face it the nature of the performances have been abysmal and that falls only on the coaching staff and the players.

On a positive note we have three cups to attempt to win and a league season to salvage, with the main aim getting to the magic forty points mark asap.

[JoeT]

I have tried to be patient with Jenas, but the man is a coach-killer. He shines in some games...usually against weaker opposition...gets on the team sheet for the next (tougher) game and then semi-dissappears. He has been doing this for as long as he has been at Spurs; he must go. So I agree with you 'Rob'.
However, right now I just can't see us getting anywhere playing Pavlychenko up front on his own....no matter what people say about him (and I do see potential there), he's just not strong enough right now. Sol Campbell had him in his pocket all of the game today. We have to play two up front for a while longer.
So, we have to make changes to our midfield - a 4 man midfield - until we are stronger. Why not go with a back four of: Gunter/Hutton; Corluka; Woodgate; Bale/Ekotto and free up King to rotate in and out of that holding midfield role with Zokora? Play either alongside Modric. As for wingers; go with our faster/attacking players - for home games or teams that we feel we can do well against, and for really tough opposition maybe go with guys like O'Hara on the left and even Zokora on the right. Crazy or not?

[JoeT]

Please don't start saying Ramos must go; give the man more time. Sure his lineup was not good today, but think about some of the games he won for us with his adjustments last season.
Without Ramos right now we will be REALLY up shit creek!

[antlesh]

Please don't start saying Ramos must go; give the man more time. Sure his lineup was not good today, but think about some of the games he won for us with his adjustments last season.
Without Ramos right now we will be REALLY up shit creek!


with all due respect mate... what are you comparing Ramos to? also at what point must he go? when we are playing championship football????

[PT]

My conern was brought up early in your piece Rob. I remember a quote from Ramos earlier in the transfer window, when being questioned about Berbatov's future and he said he wouldn't know his best team until the last day of the window.

Well, to me, that rings alarm bells.

At the point of going in to the season, he should know his best eleven, with the depth of our squad's perceived qualities allowing for adequate replacements.

The tactics and formations should have been well drilled and rehearsed and each player, be he first choice or not, honed into a complete understanding of his colleagues' movements and instructions.

What we've seen so far is what looks remarkably like a cup team and a points team being put out - in other words, A Bentiz-esque penchant for butchering the previous line-up and putting in numerous changes, not only in personnel but formations too.

How can we gain team confidence, if the team is not known until beofre kick-off?

Confidence players like Bentley and Lennon, Gio and Bent, Dawson and Huddlestone will never get impetus and flow in their game. For example, if a player like Huddlestone knows he has to fight to get in the side, then his mindset is such that he goes on to the training pitch to persuade Ramos that it is he, not his colleague that should be lining up.

If Ramos is still discovering the best formation for the players he has at his disposal, or the best players for the formation he wants to play, then all I can say is that the "Eureka" moment had better not be far down the line - I saw this in the seventies and it'll be far, far more damaging if it were to happen, no matter how good we are on paper, this time around.

[Pillbug]

Oh god. Admittedly I have had a few drinks, but we are the worst team in the league... and not just by dint of our record. Despite the endless protestations of the loyalists, regulars Jenas, zokora and newly minted Bentley have performed well below their paper value.

Ramos has had plenty of time to prove his worth. We do, frankly, look poor. Having lost Keane and Berbatov hurts quite a bit, but one would have expected the development of our defense, and the only difference between us then and us now is the overwhelming influence of Woodgate, the only useful signing, potential for bale and gio aside, that has actually come to fruition.

Jenas, Zokora and Bentley are absolute horrors in the midfield. I know, of course, that some will jump to their defense... zokora closes down play, jenas works hard. Bull... shite.. I am not saying they are horrible people, or even bad football players individually, but they do not even come close to constituting a playmaking force as a whole. Too much responsibility has been loaded on players of limited capability.

Right now, we are looking to go down, and the fact we are in relegation territory is frightening. We would have been relegation candidates last season and even the one before had we not somehow been sexy enough to get Berbatov and hold Keane. Now they are gone, and we can see to rot that has become of our midfield and defense. There are people who say we 'too good to go down'.... I had braces when I was a child, and the obnoxious dentist I had, he used to ask me if I would wear my retainer. Of course I said that, yes, yes I did. He would shake his head at me like the bastard he was, and say "The teeth don't lie, Andrew, the teeth don't lie." That bastard was right. Are the sunshine boys going to tell me that our record and performance over the last 10 months is a lie, or some kind of aberration of circumstance?

[ken the yid]

With only playing one striker up front,then you might as well stick Blobby up front ´cause it will make no difference.Ramos for f*ck sake-how hard can it be?

[Matt Hammond]

it would appear ramos doesn't know what he is doing. sacking the coach now though would be a bad idea.
if the asian billionaire buys out levy & co, maybe he will do away with the director of football and head coach roles in favour of the british, tried, tested, proved and accomplished manager role. spurs have been at the continental approach for some time now. it has been by and large fruitless. it also cost bmj his job. i know jol had tactical floors and his fitness methods were questionable, but has ramos really been any better? no.

[parj]

im not a massive jenas fan, but the difference in our team with him and without him is clear. without him we are just fcuking shit. with him we play better. but you cannot blame the central midfield when a coach picks flipping gilberto who offers no option. picks BAE and Corluka as full backs who again offer no width on the overlap. plays pavlychenko upfront who will insist on trying to shoot from stupid positions and is actually quite slow on the turn and quite weak.

not many options there for Jenas or even modric. heck you can put in Michael Carrick and he'll struggle with that formation!!! people underestimate how important the wings are in any play and if you dont have support from the wings its difficult for any central midfielder.

what do all managers seems to see in Jenas? a hard working midfielder who can play passes and connect the defence and attack. but he can only do that with the right players around him.

[Rob]

im not a massive jenas fan, but the difference in our team with him and without him is clear. without him we are just fcuking shit. with him we play better.

Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.

[sxboy]

Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.

The whole idea of 1 up front is that the lone forward gets plenty of back up from the 5 man midfield.
Jenas just cant do this, i also think Modric is the better option and with the players we have, we have no option other than 4-5-1.
I can't stand Zakora he loses everything he wins he can't pass he dosnt ever offer a scoring threat and he needs an age on the ball to decide what move he is going to atempt, which is why he is even worse in a 2 man midfield.
We have 2 problems at the moment Zakora and Jenas.

[DJS]

Rob has touched on a very good point in regards to the situation surrounding Zokora looking superb in 5 man midfield but not so hot in a midfield 4.

This is a situation we should have addressed in the summer over all our other recruits in my opinion as we need someone to sit in the middle and actually bloomin' CONTROL IT which we haven't had since Carrick...

I also am fed up with this crappy 4-5-1 formation - we should always play a 4-4-2 with a pair of decent strikers up front.

After Keano and Berbs I'm SO SICK of this one man up front system! (fair enough when we only had Bent but now no excuse).

My view is we should be playing Bent alongside Pav until Jan and if Bent don't prove himself we should be looking at someone like Lukas Podolski to come.

We NEED a bloody decent defensive midfielder!

I'm still rubbing my head in regards to Modric as he probably will come good but our deficencies last season were left wing and defensive midfield and he looks to be solving neither...

I'd like to see:

Gomes

Hutton Corkula Woodgate Bale

Bentley NEW DM Jenas Modric / Dos Santos

Bent / Podolski Pavyuchecko

[JimmyG2]

Well at least Dawson has redeemed himself.Thought he played well today.Team selection I find baffling again.In Modric we have one the best midfielders in Europe and he sits on the bench to watch Gilberto have his first run out.
Pavlyuchenko was having a good game and he is replaced by Bent. Lennon was on fire at Newcastle and is replaced by Bentley who admittedly played better today. No cohesion or consistency of selection.
Mainly though we play without any pace at the back or through the midfield.Possession is fine but it should be for a purpose.We give the opposition too much time to cover.Hopefully we sre at rock bottom now and the only way is up.

[Spurger King]

I've always felt that it is difficult to get an indication as to how a season will pan out, until the first 10 game have been played. I'm sticking to that, and will reserve judgement until then.

However, what I will say is that if Ramos continues to make the god awful decisions that to date leave us rock bottom, not only will he be gone after 10, but his leaving present will be a nice little relegation dog-fight for the unlucky sod who takes over.

Would anyone bet against Levy making another genius decision, and hiring McLaren?

Come back Christian Gross...all is forgiven!

[BringBack_leGin]

Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.

Jenas is a liability in any formation. The man is by far the worst midfielder we have had since Dozzell left, and I include both Freund and Leonhardsen in that. Zokora, in my opinion, looks good as a DM in a three man midfield, because the onus is not on him to pass at all as there are two other midfielders to do that. Purely on grounds of passion, because the boy is limited, I would have O'Hara in there. And the third and final slot should go to Luka Modric every single time, for him to have freedom to support Pavlyuchenko and not be responsible for anything beyond being an attacking midfielder.

I would never not play Lennon, he is the only attacking threat we have right now and why Gilberto of all people was put in ahead of him is a mystery. On the right it has to be Giovani every time for the moment. He and Lennon are the only one's who seem to give the team any life, and putting them on their wrongs foots seems to get the best out of both of them as they can push forward more and create more by being close to the front man, Barca style circa 2006.

And as you have said, Corluka needs to be made Woodgates permanent partner at the back, because King can't be relied on and Dawson is awful. Bale when fit should always be left back, with Ekotto as back up, and likewise on the other side with Hutton and Gunter.

If Ramos had kept Lennon in, started Giovani and played Modric ahead of Jenas I think today would have been a different ball game.

[hugefanfromwayback]

I have to say first off that I am a huge fan of Gomes. That goal today was hit ferociously with swerve and any keeper would have done well to keep it out. To me (bar one mistake) he has been virtually faultless all season and has commanded his box superbly. I no longer feel the jitters every corner/free kick like I did with Robbo in goal.

I shook my head today when Gilberto was announced in the squad. How/why.... it seems that the fans have a pretty good consensus of what they reckon is the best team (basically agree with Rob)...why do we keep selecting the wrong people game after game.

Ekotto does not look like anything more than a squad player to me. Manages to pass to no one on a regular basis rather than play it out patiently.

Finally I think a significant amount of blame should be laid at the feet of Jenas today. The handball in the area was unexcusable...at that distance out there was no harm in letting the ball fly by if he couldn't make it there... and to think he's captain... I've seen more passion from my local third eleven village cricketers.

[Thmsdonaghy]

My team for Thursday nights game in Poland would be:
....................Gomes..................

Gunter.....Woodgate.....King.....Bale

Lennon.....Jenas.....Zorkora.....Santos

...............Bent......Campbell.............


3-1 Victory for us. COYS

[ripley]

Excellent post Rob and it brings up an interesting question: Are we playing 4-5-1 because Commoli has been unable to supply the players that Ramos needs to play a formation he prefers better...or have we acquired the players that Ramos wanted for this formation?

[daffygremlin]

we are shit. what top striker/dm will want to come to us in January now.

[superspurs]

The way I see it there are two types of teams who play 4-5-1 - the teams looking to battle for a point/play a very direct style of play, and then the teams with enough attacking power and flair play proper football with it.

Assuming we employ the system in an attempt to play like the latter, i cant see how we have the personel for it no matter who you put in the starting lineup from the squad we have availible.

[samriggtheyid]

i'm so pissed off atm y does he not play 2 upfront instead of having pavlyuchenko ,who's slower thn berba was, upfront on his own. bent aint brilliant but when we played krakow or watever ramos put bent up with campbell and it worked.

[Krafty]

I am a little bit concerned by some of Ramos' selections - Gilberto comes in from nowhere?? - I'd like us to play a more consistent lineup for the time being until the team has gelled and they all know each other a bit more.

I think our big problem was and is midfield. None of them are really good enough to play in 2 right now (I think Modric will become good enough to run games in the Prem but he is not quite ready yet) and yet none of them are good enough to play with only one striker who doesnt do all the creating (again Modric seems the one able to do this, given time).

For me, midfield is the problem. Not only are they not helping out the attack or the defence, they are not even winning their own battle in the middle of the park

[DC_Boy]

I'm a big defender of JJ - but if he was to be dropped for Thursday I couldn't argue - however I think it'll be a mistake cos I still think he's better than any of our other mids - I certainly can't think of a better one on current form that we have

but by all means give someone else a go

however I've read a few people having ago at him cos he's captain - that's ridiculous - it is not his fault JR has made him captain

I think it's the wrong choice and should be Woody, but what's JJ supposed to say - no thank you

[autolycus]

Interesting, serious discussion.

What's the logic of having one up front against defences of 4? Perhaps a more trivial thought compared to the serious careful analyses above - just wondered.

[gusrowe]

I thought everyone in the team played well..but not as a team. Corluka was my Spurs MOM amd Zokora played well before being taken off......I thought that a strange decision. Even Dawson had a good game. Tactics were woeful and confusing and I feel that Ramos needs to let this team play naturally rather than to strict instructions on formation. Give them there heads and let them free.

[parj]

Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.

i believe a lot of fans seem to forget what jenas offers and that is an engine to keep going up and down. does anyone honestly think a midfield of ohara, modric and zokora will win games in the same line up as today? modric and ohara do not have the strength or pace that jenas has (yes jenas is not a powerhouse but he is stronger).

same formation, same personnel and any central midfielder will struggle. no doubt modric will perform on wednesday but because he wont have gilberto down the left and will have gunter busting a gut at right back to support Bentley.

i remember a time on SC when many bashed Robbie Keane, much like jenas, too until he became the super yiddo of the last 2 years

im sorry to say, but Ramos is paid to do this job and if he has seen something in jenas to pick him every game and make him vice captain, as well as managers before ramos who also saw more to his game then any of us.

[cuba montana]

We've exchanged a charismatic consistent manager who got us back to back 5th place finishes but won us nothing with a big game/cup specialist manager, who has little time for man management and believes everything can be achieved through hard training.

Listen Ramos, learn to speak English properly and not like the Spanish Popeye, speak to your players and put your arms around them from time to time and maybe the boys will understand your confusing tactics!

We've gone from being a fluid side into a side who look lost. We haven't even looked like scoring or creating opportunities and there's something seriously wrong at Spurs, players like Lennon are being sacrificed because of illogical tactics.

KEEP IT SIMPLE, that's what Jol did and although we always came up short against the top 4 sides, it's better than being last in the league!

Oh and sack Commolli!

[DC_Boy]

well said parj

I want spurs to do well and honestly think we'll do worse without jj - but in ways i'd quite happily see us take the risk for a few games

maybe we will improve without him

maybe we won't

it's probably time to find out

oh and interesting points gusrowe :-)

[asher]

In my mind there are several problems. Firstly some of the players are just not good enough, average at best. The likes of Ekotto, Gilberto, Dawson and O'Hara just dont cut it although I do think that O'Hara has a bit of heart. The likes of JJ, Zokora, and Bent are to in and out. One day they are great, next day awful. We have no leaders in the team therefore no cohesion.
Regards Ramos I think the guy is proven but why he changes the team every game is bizarre. Look at Chelsea and dare I say Villa. There teams hardly change only to accomodate injuries & suspensions. Therefore you get cohesion and players get used to plaing together and thus become a unit and team. I'm truly worried, if we lose 2/3 more EPL games I would call for Harry, big time.

[waresy]

I thought everyone in the team played well..but not as a team. Corluka was my Spurs MOM

Interesting thought. Cant say I have been very impressed with Corluka at all yet other than a bit of composed bring out of the ball. Would have prefered Gunter in there today for a bit of fight and pace.

O'hara was the only one that made any impression on me today and a couple of other players that didnt do anything 'wrong'

[Paxtonite]

4-5-1 is not a negative system. We must understand this before it is debated.

If played properly 4-5-1 can become 4-3-3 when we have posession. The last time our club played this system successfuly was in 1987 under Pleat and it worked a treat but we had the personnel from midfield that made it work (Hoddle, Hodge, Ardiles, P.Allen and Waddle). That system offered width, a range of passing and good breaking from midfield as well as a screen in front of the back four when we were defending.

Our system at the moment is a bit of a mish mash that is not helped by the constant changes to the starting 11 as well as the lack of confidence through not winning games.

I accept much of Rob's very detailed analysis, to which i agree in the main. I have never been a fan of Jenas, but recently i have noticed that we miss him when he is not playing. I'm not sure how good a thing that is, in fact it is probably more of a worry given how he rarely takes a game by the scruff of the neck or imposes himself on a match. Think about it. The last time he played REALLY well was in both legs of the carling cup against arsenal and he was very effective. So what is stopping him doing that in every game?

We have a plethora of midfielders but we have no blend presently. In addition our striking options have been severely dented with the departure of Keane or Berbatov. With the latter pair we at least had a potency in our attack, regardless of how well we were playing. This season we have plenty of posession, but i'd be interested to see how many shots we have had in our first six games?? Therein lies the problem, a severe lack of chances created. When a team creates chances, the players are up, the fans are up, it is a question of time before "something" happens.

Today's game was always going to be difficult regardless of what form we were in. The defeats against Boro, Sunderland (possibly Villa as it was a home game) and the draw against Wigan have set us back so much (and yes i know that hindsight is an easy thing).

We now have a crucial game coming up in Europe, as well as Hull at home. BOTH are must win. Then an international break and a game against Stoke away. Its all very well churning out the "we must fight as a team" spiel, but the players and the manager need to start earning their wages.

It won't be long before we are playing Arsenal away and then Liverpool at home. The games won't be getting any easier!!

[hotteamtn]

Sorry to say this but Ramos days are numbered, not all his fault but we are heading for relegation. I suggest getting Venables to save the situation.

[nav007_2000]

The first person out of the door has to be Camolli. His signings have been utter rubbish. Levy should be second as the transfers of Keane abd berbatov were not handled properly. We have two strikers worth a combined £30million. Both Useless. Camolli to blame. get rid of him before its too late

[gaganelov]

Jenas is a liability in any formation.

BB_leG, Why super specialist(maybe the best in the world) as Capello invites reguralary GG in the ENT?

[Thesoccershrink]

If you play a 4-5-1 the lone striker has to have the ability to hold the ball up for the support to arrive. Neither Bent or Pav seem particularly suited to it. Kanoute did it and of course (hate to mention his name) but a certain Bulgarian did it, too. (Who can forget his masterful performance spearheading a 4-4-1 when reduced to ten men vs Bolton a couple of seasons ago?).

Because neither Pav or Bent do this very well the whole shape of the team going forward is awful. If we continue playing this system with this personnel, we'll struggle horribly all season. It's hard to see where the goals will come from. Right now, we're working hard to grind out defeats.

[DC_Boy]

Right now, we're working hard to grind out defeats.

nice phrase :-)

[AndyLov]

This was the first time that JJ and Zokora started together in midfield and we have lost (and Ramos took Zokora off for no good reason). The only other games they both played in the middle were Chelsea, Krakow and Newcastle. We had a 5th place finish with them as the first choice pairing. I'm not a big Zokora fan but unlike the rest of the team they know each other's game. As for droping JJ, he is the only one that seems to give a shit at the moment, not that the hate mob care about that.

We are significantly worse than last year at the moment and in a five man midfield we are leaving the forward far too isolated. Get back to a 4-4-2 with either the 2 number 9's or with Gio or Lennon playing off Bent. The more players we have in thier natural positions the quicker the team will gel and we shouldn't be messing about tactically when confidence is so obviously shot.

[AllSeeingEye]

Nice post. But what you are saying is that Zokora isn't as versatile as he should be.

The team line up is good but where's the part where we are gonna turn premiership sides over and stay away from the drop zone?

When people are saying, "you don't know what you're doing", it may stem from a lack of motivation rather than positioning.

Technically we should be able to put out any team and still count on a draw or a win, but it's wedged in the players heads that they are going to lose. You can see it in the passing. There are so many passes going back to the back four it's debilitating to watch.

Where's the forward passing? Why is Dawson still hoofing the ball 50 yards at nobody?

Why is BAE toying with the ball Atouba style 3 or 4 times a game?

Why is Bale in left mid and or not playing at all?

So many questions and they are all leading back to Ramos.

He needs to sort this out PRONTO or we are in deep sh*t.

And if we go down........ we can forget coming back, cos you need balls in the Championship too and I am seeing none of it for miles.

And when the cup runs get squeaky we will all be looking back at the table and the impossible climb up to a European spot wondering why we trust a man who has had half a season to suss out how to win in the Prem and failed miserably.

And don't point to last seasons league results because they were shit too.

Losing at home to Brum and failing to beat the lower half of the table away is tantamount to a pile of rubbish.

And I can't bear it much longer.




Sort it out Ramos, or we will be the laughing stock come the arsenal game and your head will be on the frigging block!

[ultimateloner]

The fault is not Ramos but our squad.

Ramos was brought in to push us onto the next level - and it won't come easily. The players need to develop the positional awareness, stamina and technique to implement his vision.

Under Jol we were 5th back-to-back. We could very well continue this way - we played simple football, relying our 1 or 2 star players to make things happen (Carrick, Berbatov). Not only was this unsustainable, it was also limited because better teams could simply scuff out our key players. We lacked variety, but we get results quickly - simply because we have better quality all over the field compared with any team apart from the top 4. Our forward players such as Lennon only needs to focus on what he does best - running down the byline.

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina. Players such as Zokora and Dawson will struggle.

I applaud Levy's ambition and courage. I think he has done the right thing. What is needed now is judgement - how much time would Ramos realistically have to implement his vision given the limited ability of the players? How much patience could fans/the board afford before reverting back to our usual ways?

[AndyLov]

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina.
Have you seen us play? We are more direct now than under Jol, and with less inviting targets to aim at. I know what Ramos managed to get out of Seville but that's a different club in a different league. He can't just create a winning team by doing exactly what he did at another club and expecting it to work here, he must be able to adapt and he just isn't.

[stevenqoz]

Agreed with most of what you said Rob. I would only replace one player in the lineup...that is Zokora for Huddlestone. It was apparent last night that O'Hara was the worker in the midfield and Jenas and Zokora were ineffective. Including Huddlestone would give us a better passing range than what either of these two provided yesterday. Five in the midfield is the best way to get Huddlestone involved and O'Hara, Modric alongside him would be the go.

[gloryglory]

4-5-1 suits some players and not others.

To play 4-5-1, you need a physical striker who runs all day, works the channels and gives defenders a hard time, wins free kicks, holds the ball up and lays the ball off for runners from midfield. Think Drogba or Anelka for classic 4-5-1 strikers. We have a proven success in that position (Bent) and a striker with almost none of the attributes (Pavlyuchenko), but guess which one we're playing?

You need wingers who will support the centre forward, cut inside to shooting positions, and take defenders on. Crosses aren't as important as in a 4-4-2 as there's not many bodies to aim at. Defending ability isn't as important either because there should be a spare man in midfield. In other words, it suits Lennon and Giovanni more than Bentley or Bale (or Gilberto), but guess who's playing?

And in central midfield, the WHOLE POINT of 4-5-1 is that you can accommodate a playmaker without sacrificing your competitive edge. With Zokora holding and Jenas (or O'Hara) harrying and making late runs, you can afford to play someone to dictate play. If it isn't Modric - and what is he for if it isn't? - then you have to try Huddlestone. But you can't play 3 runners, none of them especially creative, and expect our attackers to see any of the ball.

Today's 11 was the poorest choice I can remember by a Spurs manager. It made literally no sense. I thought there were 5 or 6 errors out of 11, some of them laughable. We have the players to turn this around, but we don't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.

[rjhotspur]

I feel sorry for Ramos, I think he is a good manager who is trying to find solutions but the problem isn't tactical it's that our players are just playing terribly. Bentley £16m? I wouldn't pay £1m for him based on his performances so far, he's been a disgrace and doesn't have the excuse of acclimatising to the English game. At least when Beckham is bad he still puts in quality dead balls.

Gio will need a lot more time to adapt to playing in the Premiership and has been pretty poor so far in his outings. Jenas should be taken out and shot. He is lazy despite the fact that he runs around a lot when he feels like it, he has no vision (witness anytime he is facing the opposition with his arms outstretched begging for someone to tell him where to pass it), and doesn't give a damn. If he had half of O'Hara's determination he would be great. O'Hara is pretty limited and is our Fletcher.

Zokora is playing very well for us but of course will never create a chance in his Spurs career. I'm not a big Lennon fan but he has been doing well lately and I'm surprised he isn't getting more minutes.

Poor Pav being made to run around like a donkey with zero support is a sad sight, but Ramos is trying to get our midfield to stop sucking and packing it with numbers.

I don't know what the solution is until the players themselves begin to play better, I cannot pick a team or a formation that will make any difference based on their displays and I doubt that Ramos can either.

Bizarre 11 that I have been thinking about for some reason:
-----------------------------Gomes-----------------------
Gunter-------- Woodgate --------------King ----------BAE
-------Corluka --------------Zokora ------------Bale
Lennon ----------------------------------------------Modric
--------------------------Pavlyuchenko---------------------

[ealingspur]

our problem is that we dont have enough players who hate to lose. we need hutton back, not because corluka is not a good player, he is, but because you get the impression that hutton would give these players a rollocking. we need to stop playing people who cant speak to their team mates. bentley is more concerned about the highlights in his hair than making the highlights of the game. The team should be as following until we can start picking up points:

gomes
hutton woody king bale (we need to start risking king as much as we can)
zokora (love him or hate him, he tries his best)
Lennon Ghaly O'hara (we I said it, ghaly.)
Bent Campbell

I say ghaly because he played with his heart. he threw his shirt because he wanted to play. he lost his teeth for the cause and kept playing. Im not knocking Pav, Modric or Dos Santos because i think they want it, but aren't quite ready yet, and need to be bedded in. He also had significant quality. If you watch his highlights, he can pick a pass, make a good run, can beat a man and has decent pace, and is strong in the tackle. he is also liable to a lapse in concentration, but we can forgive him that given the state of the rest of our team.

With regards to jenas, im nor a hater nor a lover, I just call it as i see it. yes today, there were several times where he would run forwards, his arms in an aghast shape, questioning his teammates for runs, and thats not his fault, he's entitled to demand that of his teammates. But as the original yiddster often says, he's not good enough in a the most important position on the pitch. lets look at the managers who have picked him regularily. Robson, Jol and Ramos havent had much of a choice - Ramos still needs to introduce modric properly, and once he gets into the flow, that OUGHT to be it for jenas. Capello has had some quite frankly bizarre choices, and neither him nor Sven chose him as a regular. for sven he was one of the guys to fill up the numbers, and under capello he is a bit part player. I think he's got good attributes, but nothing special or rather good enough.

Bentley is a waste of money and space. All those of you advocating his purchase of the summer for SUCH a massive amount of money were very very wrong. He was a great player for blackburn, but he was not needed. we could have and should have spent that money on other areas. We should also not have made so many changes, but hindsight is such a wonderful thing. Players like steed, teemu and chimbonda were hard, they were tough, they didnt like losing. Nobody could knock steed off the ball. a feather could knock bentley a mile. We need to resort to recently promoted tactics to get anywhere now.

[TutanKlinsmann]

The problem with Jenas is everybody looked at him as a box-to-box player. I agree with that. But, that was not his strength. That's weaken his play. That's what makes him missing for half of the game. Put him in a position a la Lampard, and he'll do good. No need to think of helping the defense, and really not the playmaker. That job should be given to Modric. Everrybody knows what the man can do.

And Zokopops, let him play just in front of the defense.

[Spurfect]

BAE and O'hara would be nowhere near my starting 11. Both turn the ball over far too much. Most of O'hara's efforts are trying to recover possession after he has lost the ball. He needs far too much time to make a decision when passing and prevents us playing quickly in the midfield. BAE shows no commitment to the contest and seems to be out of position far too often. As a defender, you shouldn't be casually jogging back when you've lost possesssion as was seen when O'hara lost the ball in the second half. Pathetic effort!! Not acceptable....

[doubledecker]

Very good post Rob.

There is a huge problem in that our midfield cannot operate as a 4 especially since we have tossed out Malbranque and Tainio.

Lennon- Tainio- Modric- Malbranque would imo have worked as a 4. In fact there was nothing much wrong with Lennon- Jenas- Tainio- Malbranque. As a certain 5-1 performance showed . True to form it was discarded by Ramos after that. And please let's not hear all the shit Mr SS 57 about Tainio always being injured. If he only played in half the matches at least we would have a DM worthy of the description half the time.( Perhaps Ledley King could play DM when fit also since Corluka looks ok at CD ).. Does anyone REALLY think that Ohara and Zokora are better than Tainio in that position ? The fact that neither can do the job effectively is the very reason that Rob is putting forward a midfield with BOTH of them. And Malbranque did a huge amount of tackling back to help whoever was our weak LB in a way that Lennon on the left, Bentley, Gio just do not.

The truth is that Ramos likes athletes which is why he ignores the footballing limitations of Zokora, Ekotto and Bent. I wish we still had Tainio, Malbranque and yes Defoe.

I touched on King as DM . he did it effectively for England. He did it for us a few years ago even when he had Doherty, Richards and Gardner behind him. In our current predicament we could do worse than play him there to anchor our MF.Perhaps then we could go with 2 strikers.

The other part of our serious problem is that while we do not have a MF that can operate as a 4 ( unless Ledley plays at DM ) , we have strikers who need to operate as a pair. Talk about caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea !

I wish I had the answers. If we have to play 5 in MF then we must have attacking ability on the flanks and that means Lennon and Gio. Bentley is not worth his place and right now nor is Jenas. So for me it would be Lennon- Zokora- Modric- Ohara- Gio with Lennon, Modric and Gio given instructions to break forward into the box at every opportunity to support whichever of our strikers draws the short straw.

[bobby b]

I just find it so hard to beleive a manager that not only Spurs fans but players like Modric and Gio signed purely for his being the coach can be so out of touch with his own squad.Remember in Ramos we trust? the pre-season?All of a sudden all f***ing hell has broken loose and Ramos,Poyet,Levy and the rest of the staff haven't a clue as to how to fix it !

[mil1lion]

I still think our best team at the moment is the one that played away to Chelsea. I dont understand why we haven't played that team since then. We could easily play the same team with Pavyluchenko in place of Bent. Hutton in place of Gunter when he returns. And Corluka in place of King when he needs resting. But the 4-5-1 only works when we have pace in the midfield. Bentley and Gilberto will never be able to support a lone striker imo. We can use one of them out wide, but definately not 2. Theres no doubt that this system works best with Giovani and Lennon, or at least one of those two.

Your team looks good there Rob. Personally, i would have Jenas in place of O'Hara and Giovani in place of either Lennon or Bentley, but played on the left.

[richardh]

Great article. However what is up with the team you have picked up though?? We're not like chelsea where they can play an effective 4-5-1 formation with a player like Drogba up front getting support from the likes of malouda, ballack, lampard, j cole etc, we simply don't have these calibre of players to incorporate such a formation. So Pavlychenko has to be partnered with either bent or campbell, which brings to my attention where on earth was frasier campbell yesterday??? as he's been one of our better players when his come on from the bench this season. I'm not the biggest fan of vedran corluka either he seems to be very sloppy and doesn't seem to think when he distributes the ball, however if he is given a definitive roll in the team as either a centre back or a right back then he will have stability and should improve rather than playing him in different positions week in week out. I think lennon has probably been our best player this season along with bale who was injured yesterday, however ramos and poyet don't seem to see this as they opt not pick him for the last 3 games running. I dont rate zokora or jenas-simply not good enough jenas gave away a completely uneccesary penalty yesterday. Lastly why on earth was gilberto pciked ahead of lennon and GDS, what on earth did ramos expect him to offer to our team his not exactky the type of player thats gonna offer support to pavlychenko.

My team would be:

GK:Gomes
RB: Hutton (when fit) otherwise Gunter
CB: King (when fit) otherwise Corluka
CB: Woodgate
LB: Bale
RM: Lennon
CM: Modric
CM: Jenas (as theres really no one else)
LM: Bentley
ST: Pavlychenko
ST: Campbell

[davidmatzdorf]

I was all geared up to reply to this interesting article, until skimming the truly pathetic, learning-disabled chain of responses nearly put me off. Virtually every post, long or short, blames our current difficulties on an individual player, usually Jenas or Zokora, and calls the poster's bête noire "shit" or "a waste of money".

People who have nothing interesting to say could possibly consider shutting up, instead of using internet boards as a vehicle for venting their formless rage at individual Spurs players ... but I don't know why I even bothered writing that. It's not going to make any difference. People will continue to embarrass themselves in public, whatever I say.

Anyway, at least getting that off my chest has restored my desire to comment on the article. There's an elephant in the room and everyone is avoiding mentioning it. Post after post tries to analyse our sputtering midfield and the problems we are having supporting the strikers.

But the "best defence in years" has contrived, in every match so far but one, to look really good for about 86 minutes, yet still concede one or, usually, two goals. Individually, we have an excellent squad, but it is not functioning as a team and the mental weakness of the collective is evident in virtually every minute of play. That is at least as true of our defence as it is of our midfield. The defence isn't working, or at least it isn't doing what it has been designed to do, which is to concede less than one goal per game. That's a realistic target for a defence that expects to finish in the top six: concede no more than 38 goals in a league season.

Perhaps people haven't noticed because we haven't made many defensive howlers, nor have we been on the rough end of a hiding, but the defence isn't functioning any better than the midfield. Not in terms of end product.

[bubble07]

Very well said Rob. However at this present moment Bentley doesn't deserve to start. The main problem with Bentley starting wide right in a 5 is his lack of pace. It will be like watching England play with Beckham's 60 yard passes - he will turn us into a long ball team. In a 4 man midfield he should start but in a i'm not so sure in a 5

For a 4-5-1 formation to work we need quick players supporting Pavlyuchenko which means we should be starting with Giovani. Him and Lennon could swap flanks during games and cause oppositions real problems

Gomes



Hutton Woodgate Corluka Bale


Giovani Zokora Modric O’Hara Lennon


Pavlychenko

[bubble07]

I9 know the problem isn't who to buy next in January but if we could sign a vieira type player we can play 4-4-2 and have bent and campbell rotating for a starting place alongside Pav.

Although I think Pav is our best option as a lone striker he does lack pace. I think people on here underestimated how quick berba was

[Oz_Spurs]

BAE and O'hara would be nowhere near my starting 11. Both turn the ball over far too much. Most of O'hara's efforts are trying to recover possession after he has lost the ball. He needs far too much time to make a decision when passing and prevents us playing quickly in the midfield. BAE shows no commitment to the contest and seems to be out of position far too often. As a defender, you shouldn't be casually jogging back when you've lost possesssion as was seen when O'hara lost the ball in the second half. Pathetic effort!! Not acceptable....
thank god, someone not blaming all the mid field problems on Zokora who ,is playing his best football at the moment. I agree on O'hara, he is like Dawson, his mistake mean he has to hurl himself around trying to make up for them, then people assume he is dying for the cause when actually they are just poor footballers.

I also have to fight Pav's case on here, he runs tirelessly and get's 0 service, anything that was there to be had he got on the end of but genrally the service was terrible, he looks a little cumbersome on the ball but so does Drogba so the lad should be given time he'll come good.

[Rob]

My team would be:

GK:Gomes
RB: Hutton (when fit) otherwise Gunter
CB: King (when fit) otherwise Corluka
CB: Woodgate
LB: Bale
RM: Lennon
CM: Modric
CM: Jenas (as theres really no one else)
LM: Bentley
ST: Pavlychenko
ST: Campbell

I really wanted to pick a 4-4-2 as I hate seeng Pav who's clearly so talented being isolated but do you not see how weak that central midfield is. Even if it were Modric and Tainio then maybe it'd work, Modric and Mendes certainly would have done but Modric and Jenas? Unless Jenas really starts to show the potential he's threatened to for seasons then that midfield pairing simply doesn't work as there's no one in there to break up the play or sit in front of the defence when needed.

My whole point was that we need a good DM to cover the uncertain defence and plug the hole in midfield. At the minute that's got to be Zokora but he just doesn't function in a 4-4-2 where he looks awful. In a 4-5-1 he's been one of our best players but to accomodate that it has to be 1 up front with the support coming from midfield.

I know I'm placing the whole blame on Jenas here but it's not that simple. Dropping Jenas would allow us to play a formation and style that suits our current personnel.

[Revan]

As the chant of "You don't know what you're doing" echoed from the away end of Fratton Park, we were 2-0 down to what should have been a fragile Pompey side. With what looked like no chance of getting back into the game, all that was left was time for reflection on what had gone oh so very wrong in our win-less season.

The problem may very well be that Ramos indeed doesn't know what he's doing with the personnel we have. As soon as the team was announced it seemed clear to apparently everyone apart from the manager that there were several strange choices in there. Gilberto back from the wilderness to replace the injured Bale and provide support down the left of midfield? A 5-man midfield with Pavlyuchenko again on his own up front but with no sign of our supporting midfielders? Dawson brought back into the centre of defence in replacement of King with Corluka shifted back to the right and the impressive Gunter missing out yet again.

Does Ramos know what he's doing? All we can analyse is what's put in front of us and that's what I'll attempt to do in this column, taking a look at our season so far, focusing on the squad and the apparent deficiencies which an ultimately poor transfer window has left us with.

As I see it, the problem we have is a complicated one. We certainly have quality players but do we have the right players? Take Zokora for example. In a 2-man midfield he’s poor at best. He often struggles with the simple pass, losing valuable possession carelessly and fails to get into space for his team-mates to pass to so rather than relieving pressure we get forced into mistakes.

Contrast this with his performances in a 3-man midfield and he’s like a completely different player (and maybe the one we thought we were buying). With more time to sit back and read the play, his positioning in front of the defence is superb. He’s always there to receive the short pass back from his midfield team-mates when they’re under pressure and with more options in midfield in front of him to play the pass to he looks calm on the ball. When he picks the ball up from deep and surges forward with it, not only does he relieve pressure on us, he makes a significant attacking contribution.

Sound great doesn’t it, so what’s the problem? With a 5-man midfield as we’ve put out in the last few games it means playing 1 up front and unfortunately we just don’t seem to be getting the system right. I’ll start off by saying I’m fast becoming a huge fan of Pavlychenko. He’s worked tirelessly on his own up front with shockingly bad support and shown real heart, a complete contrast to a certain sulking Bulgarian. He may not have the class of Berbatov but he’s certainly an accomplished striker as his record shows and if we manage to get things right I think he could have a far bigger impact for us than he did and become dare I saw prolific. So how do we go about getting it right?

If we’re going to play with only 1 striker as it seems our midfield setup almost deems necessary then it’s up to the rest of the midfield to support but that’s just not happening. We have two direct players, GDS and Lennon, who despite turning around every performance when introduced Ramos seems intent on not playing and instead it takes a poor first half before they’re brought on and allowed to influence our play. Is the problem here that we have too many midfielders without having the right ones?

Bentley and Lennon both clearly prefer the right side of midfield but are very different players. Bentley, although not showing it recently, can put in a great cross from deep and it was really expected that out front two would feed on those crosses all day. Of course our “front two” are now playing for Liverpool and Manchester United and instead we’re left with Bentley playing poorly in a system where he’s not necessarily suited. When he does put in a good cross (and these will get better as he settles and his confidence returns), there’s only the lone figure of Pavlychenko fighting a losing battle against strong defensive partnerships trying to make space for himself to get any chance at goal. In contrast, Lennon’s major weakness is his poor crossing and despite some recent improvement in this area, it’s really his pace and direct play that’s his major benefit, especially in a system where the striker needs this support running from deep. Similarly, the direct play of GDS is often a welcome addition to a side that’s simply struggling to get further forward and fill the space between midfield and attack. Thankfully, unlike Tarrabt who his style does have a passing resemblance too and despite his small frame, GDS is certainly not just a “luxury” player. He works hard for the ball, when he gets it it takes a lot to get him off it and when that does happen he isn’t afraid to come back and make amends by tacking and fighting for it. If it wasn’t for this I would be really worried that we have 3 players with only 1 position to accommodate but because of GDS’s versatility and with Lennon looking more comfortable on the left then it may not be so bad after all.

I’m not so sure if the same can be said about our other midfield options, namely Jena and Modric). It would seem to be an easy choice between the two. While still acclimatising to the pace of the premiership, Modric is by the far the more accomplished midfielder and with a touch of the Ossie Ardiles about him, our midfield and whole system should be built around getting the best from who’s going to prove to be one of the best midfielders we’ve seen for years. The problem here is vice-captain Jenas who Ramos clearly sees something in that many fans don’t. It may just be a case of once Modric is fully fit that Jenas will play less and less of a part but for years now we’ve waited for him to reach his potential and to be fair in some games we have seen glimpses of the player he could have been for us but in my opinion it’s now time to cut our losses with him. If he was going to step up to the next level he would have done it by now and persisting with him means we can’t settle on a system or style of play that works.

I’m trying to base my opinions here on more than the typical knee-jerk response and on the back of an absolutely awful performance against Portsmouth it might not be the right time to be critical of Jenas whilst praising O’Hara but the latter has shown far more fight and spirit befitting a captain of our club and if we do persist with a 3-man midfield I’d be more than happy for those 3 to consist of Modric, Zokora and O’Hara with Jenas being moved on.

It’s coming to the stage of this column now where I just put all my cards on the table and name my first choice 11 but a few comments on our defence is maybe in order first. Gomes, superb. I was worried that we might be signing the “Brazilian David James” (and that’s the “dodgy” David James, not the one who just kept another clean sheet against us) and while he’s already shown a few eccentricities such as a penchant for punching rather than taking the easy catch I’m confident in saying that he’s the best keeper I’ve seen play for us (which admittedly only goes back as far as Thorstvedt or so). In front of him Woodgate is a rock and alongside King (oh Ledley, where forth art though?) forms possibly the best defensive partnership in the premiership. Unfortunately despite repeated assurances from the club with regards to his fitness, King still looks to have problems and the last thing we need now is an unsettled defence to accompany the chopping and changing with the rest of the team. Having said that, Corluka looks an adequate replacement at least in the short term and with Hutton and Bale that completes one of the strongest defences in the league. Unfortunately, and some people may forget this, we’ve been missing 3 of our first choice back 4 for much of the season with Bale and Hutton joining King on the treatment table. However, with Corluka and Gunter we have adequate backup with the only weak-link at left back where BAE still isn’t convincing many fans that he really has a future at WHL.

So time to pick my team. I honestly feel that the team below should still be capable of finishing in the top 6 this season.


Gomes




Hutton Woodgate Corluka Bale





Bentley Zokora Modric O’Hara Lennon





Pavlychenko






Gunter as a temporary replacement for Hutton doesn’t weaken that line-up significantly and leaves a strong bench. GDS can replace any of Bentley, Lennon or even O’Hara in that midfield depending on the opposition but it’s vital that Modric provides the link between midfield and attack that we’ve been sorely lacking so far this season. As I explained above, whilst I dislike playing 1 up front as it leaves Pavlychenko isolated, with the personnel available in our midfield, it’s extremely understandable why Ramos is persisting with it. If we moved to 4-4-2, while the front line improves significantly with Bent and Pavlychenko both capable of running the channels and dragging defences apart, the midfield just doesn’t work. If we had a defensive midfielder who was more comfortable than Zokora (Veloso or even Diarra may be the answer) then we could revert to 4-4-2 without too many problems and whether that happens in January is something we’ll have to wait in see.
What total pants, sorry but it need to be said. We cant play one up front as our midfield dont suport the striker. Might as well become Bolton Hotspur, shocking thing to say. Pav isnt a good player, he is over priced and doesnt know when to shot. For god sake how many times is he gonna shot from 30yards, totally idiot. He is a easy way of playing the player we need.




Gomes
Gunter.......Woodie...........Corluka.......Bale
....Bentley..........Zork.......O'hara..
Lennon
Campbell...........Bent...




There you go, an attacking team which leaves Zork In good company Lennon should be given a freerole as his pace would scare ant defence. It also means we dont have to rely on his crosses. If Ramos can't see this as the best opition than they guy should be out. Com should be out no matter what!

[BringBack_leGin]

What total pants, sorry but it need to be said. We cant play one up front as our midfield dont suport the striker. Might as well become Bolton Hotspur, shocking thing to say. Pav isnt a good player, he is over priced and doesnt know when to shot. For god sake how many times is he gonna shot from 30yards, totally idiot. He is a easy way of playing the player we need.




Gomes
Gunter.......Woodie...........Corluka.......Bale
....Bentley..........Zork.......O'hara..
Lennon
Campbell...........Bent...





There you go, an attacking team which leaves Zork In good company Lennon should be given a freerole as his pace would scare ant defence. It also means we dont have to rely on his crosses. If Ramos can't see this as the best opition than they guy should be out. Com should be out no matter what!


It's the wooden spoon for you in the posters awards methinx

[Rob]

What total pants, sorry but it need to be said. We cant play one up front as our midfield dont suport the striker. Might as well become Bolton Hotspur, shocking thing to say. Pav isnt a good player, he is over priced and doesnt know when to shot. For god sake how many times is he gonna shot from 30yards, totally idiot. He is a easy way of playing the player we need.




Gomes
Gunter.......Woodie...........Corluka.......Bale
....Bentley..........Zork.......O'hara..
Lennon
Campbell...........Bent...





There you go, an attacking team which leaves Zork In good company Lennon should be given a freerole as his pace would scare ant defence. It also means we dont have to rely on his crosses. If Ramos can't see this as the best opition than they guy should be out. Com should be out no matter what!


Interesting response and whilst I completely disagree about Pav, Lennon in the free role was something I considered but you've just placed someone who's been about the best right winger in the league over the last few years (and one we paid £16 million for) in central midfield.

I assume the idea there is that Bentley breaks to the right and crosses from deep, a la Beckham and O'Hara does likewise on the left. The problem that leaves us with is that teams would plough straight through our centre and with Zokora tending to either sit back in front of the defence or go on one of his runs, we wouldn't have a single player anywhere near the centre circle apart from maybe Lennon but that places a lot of defensive responsibility on him that he's just not suited for with the need for him to win the ball in advanced positions.

[BringBack_leGin]

Interesting response and whilst I completely disagree about Pav, Lennon in the free role was something I considered but you've just placed someone who's been about the best right winger in the league over the last few years (and one we paid £16 million for) in central midfield.

I assume the idea there is that Bentley breaks to the right and crosses from deep, a la Beckham and O'Hara does likewise on the left. The problem that leaves us with is that teams would plough straight through our centre and with Zokora tending to either sit back in front of the defence or go on one of his runs, we wouldn't have a single player anywhere near the centre circle apart from maybe Lennon but that places a lot of defensive responsibility on him that he's just not suited for with the need for him to win the ball in advanced positions.

A lot of people seem to think that just because he is less flung forward than Lennon, Bentley offers more defensive solidity. This is tripe. Lennon covers his full back brilliantly, beter than any other winger I can name. because of his pace and energy he is almost always there when anybody attacks his flank, be it the right or the left, and in general works very hard for the ball.

Conversely, I've lost count of the number of times already that Bentley has slid in for a tackle and been left for dead.

Like I said, Lennon on the left, Giovani on the right. Bentley is not suited to a 451/ 433. Lennon and Giovani both have the pace and trickery to, when as high up on the pitch as they are in a 3 man attack/ 5 man midfield, lose their inevitable heavy marking by coming infield and getting close to the striker, which is what we need if we play with Pav on his own up front. I know we are no Barcelona, but at their best, with their 3 man attack, when Messi had the ball on the right (on his wrong foot) Ronaldinho became a centre forward with Eto'o, and when Ronaldinho had the ball on the left (on his wrong foot), Messi became a centre forward with Eto'o. Then in the middle they had a perfect blend, with Deco painting the picture, which leads me to my next point.

In the midfield it is a case of finding that blend of battling and passing, because this formation needs someone who can get the ball effectively to the flanks, as well as push up himself and support the striker. That makes Modric a must as he is the only midfielder there with the ability to play a splitting pass. Then in the DM position Zokora is really the only option because we have a bad bunch of which he is the best. And in fairness to him, I thought he was exempt from criticism v Pompy. That final midfield spot... well who do you pick? Is it the all talk but no substance Jenas? The slow as hell and combersome always Huddlestone? Or the full of heart but limited as a footballer O'Hara? I would go with the latter because at least he seems to fight for every ball and put himself in the line of fire. Huddlestone is just too off form and has even lost his confidence to pass, while Jenas is a pretender. All he does is make short passes backwards and sideways (after demanding the ball from more useful passers it must be said). It is as if he is just thinking about artificially beefing up his stats to show him being in possession a lot with many completed passes, so that then he can show that to his bosses in contract negotiations.

We're all pretty agreed about defence so I won't waste my fingers there, but the key to any team, regardless of the quality around it, is midfield, and that is something that we need to put right by the time Hull visit on Sunday if we want to salvage anything from this season.

[Hartfelt]

Ermm, sorry but you're way off the mark. The side Rob suggests is the right choice, currently, although I might put Dos Santos on in place of Lennon.

Where is Modric, our best midfield player in your set up? How can you make a judgement on Pav when he's barely played for us or in the Prem? His quality is clear. Whether he'll adapt remains to be seen but he won't if we don't play him. Lennon's lack of end product is his whole problem. I certainly wouldn't play him up the middle. His pace is a weapon down the flanks. That's where he should be played.

In terms of formation, playing two strikers just because we have them, doesn't make it our best team. We have to play to our strengths in the side we have. That's the whole point. That's what Ramos is trying to do. We are midfield-heavy and strike-light due to the idiocy of the timing of our sales. Our midfield, shockingly, lacks a true defensive midfielder but Zokora steps up more when there are three in the middle. Bent and Campbell would both be benchwarmers in any decent, balanced Spurs' side. Pav should start.

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Rob, interesting piece with some things I agree with and some I don't.

First I'll start with the things I do agree with. I am also liking Pavlyuchenko a lot. His work off the ball is great even though he ever really gets any decent balls into him. He tries to make movements to pull the defender out but it is clearly not easy to do when you have two men mountains monitoring you as he did yesterday. I also agree we need to be more direct and need to build our midfield around Modric's creativity.

Where I have difficulty understanding the concept is continuing with a 4-5-1. Yesterday was a flat 4-5-1 where we set out to try and flood the midfield away from home. The way we play it we may as well play 4-4-1 for the effect it has. We had two deeper wide men and the support for Pavlyuchenko was poor. Unfortunately Bentley could have played 1000 crosses into the box and I am not sure Pav would have got any return from Campbell and Distin. I couldn't understand at the time and still can't understand now how our offensive plan was to cross balls into Pavlyuchenko against one of the biggest most aerially dominant defences in the entire league. Even if he had have got his head onto anything there wouldn't have been anyone to pick up on the loose ball.

We have to offer something that makes the opposition have to think a bit harder about how to stop us. Playing with such a flat 451 allows the opposition to sit and soak up anything coming into the area and they don't have to worry about any real penetration. Even if Modric had played as a playmaker yesterday he would have had very little joy as the outlets just didn't exist.

Also I see no reason why Zokora can't play exctly the same role in a 442 as he does in the 451, he just gets pushed too high up the pitch in a 442 and we lose the shape of the midfield. But it doesn't have to be like that. There is no reason that a defensive midfield role can't be employed in a 442 (Diarra showed us that yesterday).

I suggest that we need to play 2 up top and try and at least challenge the centre backs. Have plenty of movement up front from the two strikers, backwards and forwards, diagonal runs across the 18 yard box to stretch the opposition centre backs rather than the isolation we were left with yesterday. We can form a midfield with Zokora deep covering for Modric as a playmaker who can then take advantage of the extra movement up front to expose gaps in the opposition defence. Out wide Bentley would probably have far more joy with Modric playing him in and more options in the box. On the left in an attempt to offer something different we should use some of the strength and energy that goes missing when he plays in the centre by employing Jenas into a specific role out there. Working hard defensively to help the full back and then when attacking he can be direct and can pose a real threat by breaking late into the box and towards the back post to give Bentley even more options. He can attack the opposition players and try to work onto his right to get some shots in (something we didn't manage to do until Lennon did exactly that in the 88th minute, but I think I would prefer Jenas having a crack than Lennon). Then we have possibly two of the best overlapping fullbacks in the league in Hutton and Bale. Attacking fullbacks are so difficult to pick up because they are essentially breaking from deep and are matchedup against the opposition winger. Bale gets more space when attacking from full back than he does in a more advanced role. We don't we take full advantage of that by playing him at fullback. If our fullbacks are going to defend badly when they are playing more defensively why don't we go at the opposition more so that they have to take more care over what we are doing rather than thinking about attacking us. Our defence should play even higher and Gomes can mind the box.

So I would play something like:

Gomes

Hutton----Corluka-----Woodgate----Bale

Zokora
Bentley-----------Modric------------Jenas

Pavlyuchenko------Bent

[Freddiehotspur]

Thing is, we started the season with an attacking formation, with attacking players and with an attacking mentality. Lack of movement off the ball made our life difficult, the players looked like statues after our first defeat. Tracking back became more important than knowing where to deliver the ball when we were in possession. No one wanted the ball, especially Jenas, who just shrugs his head and waves his arms when in possession. He doesn't have a clue who to pass to and there isn't one attack that looks organised.

The 2 players who can save this farce are Modric and Bale. The only two who will want the ball and who run into good positions... The rest are just statues, looking for an excuse to not reach a ball, just pass a ball, and wait to find someone to tumble into when they've lost the ball...

It's shit, we're total utterly crap, and i miss the days of Rob Hulse.. Even Woody looks like he's given up... My only demands are the following:
1) Play Modric and Bale, it doesn't matter how many games they've played
2) Play Corluka in CB, he is lost on the right back. (Obviously Dawson has not earned the right to be anywhere near the first team.)
3) Play Bent, Lennon and either Campbell or Bentley on the right...

Maybe relegation is needed to open people's eyes...

[Revan]

Interesting response and whilst I completely disagree about Pav, Lennon in the free role was something I considered but you've just placed someone who's been about the best right winger in the league over the last few years (and one we paid £16 million for) in central midfield.

I assume the idea there is that Bentley breaks to the right and crosses from deep, a la Beckham and O'Hara does likewise on the left. The problem that leaves us with is that teams would plough straight through our centre and with Zokora tending to either sit back in front of the defence or go on one of his runs, we wouldn't have a single player anywhere near the centre circle apart from maybe Lennon but that places a lot of defensive responsibility on him that he's just not suited for with the need for him to win the ball in advanced positions.The reason for Lennon playing there is that he comes inside no matter what wing he is on so why not give him a freerole in the hole. As for teams going though the middle I dont think that would be the case. You have three midfielder that cover a lot of ground. Lets be honest, its not our defence thats the problem, its the fact we have no opitions when we get into the attcking third. We need to go out there and win games not hope that we dont lose. Which is how we have played all season and will continue to until we have the balls to play two up front.

Ramos doesnt take risks even when we are two goals down, why does anyone see this as acceptable? Yes Com has screwed him over big time and should lose his job. Yet Ramos picks the team and there is no reason for us to only have two we havent played nearly anyone of quality. Yes Aston Villa and Chelsea but Portmouth, Sunderland, this isnt good enough.

Seriously would anyone think he was doing a good job if you took away the Carlin Cup win???

[JimmyG2]

I was all geared up to reply to this interesting article, until skimming the truly pathetic, learning-disabled chain of responses nearly put me off. Virtually every post, long or short, blames our current difficulties on an individual player, usually Jenas or Zokora, and calls the poster's bête noire "shit" or "a waste of money".

People who have nothing interesting to say could possibly consider shutting up, instead of using internet boards as a vehicle for venting their formless rage at individual Spurs players ... but I don't know why I even bothered writing that. It's not going to make any difference. People will continue to embarrass themselves in public, whatever I say.

Anyway, at least getting that off my chest has restored my desire to comment on the article. There's an elephant in the room and everyone is avoiding mentioning it. Post after post tries to analyse our sputtering midfield and the problems we are having supporting the strikers.

But the "best defence in years" has contrived, in every match so far but one, to look really good for about 86 minutes, yet still concede one or, usually, two goals. Individually, we have an excellent squad, but it is not functioning as a team and the mental weakness of the collective is evident in virtually every minute of play. That is at least as true of our defence as it is of our midfield. The defence isn't working, or at least it isn't doing what it has been designed to do, which is to concede less than one goal per game. That's a realistic target for a defence that expects to finish in the top six: concede no more than 38 goals in a league season.

Perhaps people haven't noticed because we haven't made many defensive howlers, nor have we been on the rough end of a hiding, but the defence isn't functioning any better than the midfield. Not in terms of end product.
You are quite wrong in your criticism of the posts in reply to this article.have another in depth look instead of skimming before you you go off on one of your rants(Which I usually agree with)

There were nearly fifty posts prior to yours and on re-reading most of them were well argued responses and generally not overly critical of either Jenas and Zokora except in the general analysis of the team
I can find only one post that describes either as 'shit'.
There are about 15 of the 50 that are critical of Jenas and Zokora,mainly Jenas but all have reasons apart from one that declares Jenas 'should be shot'.
There are another half a dozen posts which raise other matters or a jokey interventions 'send for venables.

So whilst I share your frustration don't take it out on contributors to the Spurs Community columns,most of whom are just as passionate as you.

[spursintheblood]

As far as I can see the advantage of 4 -5-1, other than supposedly dominating the midfield, is that that 2 of the 5 can bomb forward when there is possession, turning it into a 4-3-3. When they were the invincibles the Arse used to sit back and then the entire midfield would rush forward and overwhelm the defence of any opposition. This is what we should be doing with the team that we have. Individually I have no problem with any of our players. They mostly look assured on the ball and have the ability to pass. The system needs time and personnel to bed in. Confidence is going to be low as we have started incredibly poorly, but I doubt we will be relegated. Also I see few prima donnas who will be desperate to leave should we fail to achieve Europe again. So they should work all the more next year.

1. We have to get out of this penchant for swapping the entire bloody team every transfer window.
2. Stability is now the key. Longevity for Ramos and Poyet.
3. No response to ANY offers for our best players.

I would play:

Gomes
Hutton / Woody / King / Bale
Bentley / Zokora / Modric
Lennon / GDS
Pavlyuchenko

Lennon can cut in, as can GDS so with their pace they would tear defences apart. Bentley can drift out to the right and pop in crosses and Zokora just sits there in front of the back 4.

All these players have the ability to take it to opponents when we have possession. So without moaning about missed transfers and players we don't have anymore, sod the ones who wanted to leave (Keano you'll always be a legend to me and I wish we had not sold Defoe! What was wrong with leaving it as a loan? Shame), We have to get on with the season as it is and pray to any of the fickle Gods of Football listening.

[gloryglory]

Anyone else not seen any evidence that Pavlyuchenko will cut it? Anyone else believe in Bent?

[Paxtonite]

If you play a 4-5-1 the lone striker has to have the ability to hold the ball up for the support to arrive. Neither Bent or Pav seem particularly suited to it. Kanoute did it and of course (hate to mention his name) but a certain Bulgarian did it, too. (Who can forget his masterful performance spearheading a 4-4-1 when reduced to ten men vs Bolton a couple of seasons ago?).

Because neither Pav or Bent do this very well the whole shape of the team going forward is awful. If we continue playing this system with this personnel, we'll struggle horribly all season. It's hard to see where the goals will come from. Right now, we're working hard to grind out defeats.

it would help if we didn't therefore play long balls for them to chase. the forward has to hold the ball up i agree and Pav can certainly do that far better than bent, however our team play in getting the ball to him is beyond poor.

[Paxtonite]

The fault is not Ramos but our squad.

Ramos was brought in to push us onto the next level - and it won't come easily. The players need to develop the positional awareness, stamina and technique to implement his vision.

Under Jol we were 5th back-to-back. We could very well continue this way - we played simple football, relying our 1 or 2 star players to make things happen (Carrick, Berbatov). Not only was this unsustainable, it was also limited because better teams could simply scuff out our key players. We lacked variety, but we get results quickly - simply because we have better quality all over the field compared with any team apart from the top 4. Our forward players such as Lennon only needs to focus on what he does best - running down the byline.

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina. Players such as Zokora and Dawson will struggle.

I applaud Levy's ambition and courage. I think he has done the right thing. What is needed now is judgement - how much time would Ramos realistically have to implement his vision given the limited ability of the players? How much patience could fans/the board afford before reverting back to our usual ways?

thats not stereotypical at all is it ?? Zokora has imense stamina and is the only player bar lennon that has shown bursts of pace and movement.

[Gilzean's Hairdresser]

Well, at least a newbie on this forum. But I have been watching Tottenham since long before the last time were this bad (the mid 70s vintage looked similarly aimless and directionless - and I'm sure nobody needs reminding what happened to them....)
So, for what it's worth, here's my two pennorth. Beginning from a starting point of reality - in other words, the here and now, not the 'what might have beens' of a different outcome over the summer transfer window - my thoughts, in no particular order are:
1) At least try to find some semblance of a settled, first choice 11 and give them a chance to gel. All the constant chopping and changing smacks of a lack of confidence, and this has clearly been transmitted to the players, and now the fans (hence the chant when Big Pav gave way to Bent yesterday.)
2) Following on from above, more specifically decide on who, when fit, constitute the first choice back four. For instance, can anyone see the logic of picking Corluka at centre back last week v Wigan (where I thought he looked quite assured) over Dawson, then bringing in Dawson yesterday and shifting Corluka back out right? It looks like tinkering for tinkering's sake - I know tactics and team selection are not always as straightforward as we 'mere fans' sometimes think, but for fuck's sake how hard can it be??? At least Jol, while no rocket scientist admittedly, brought a kind of logic to the things he did, which in turn bore some sense of continuity and stability.
3) Give Lennon - the only creative player who's looked half way decent this season, and the only one who has actually improved his performance AND his attitude - a run of games.
4) I seem to recall that one of the reasons why preening, over priced pretty boy Bentley left Arse was because he fancied himself in the Bergkamp role, but that he never got a fair chance (ahhh, diddums) because it was occupied by....er...Bergkamp. So, why not put our (ridiculously over inflated at £17 million) money where our mouth is and be the club to give him that chance? We DESPERATELY need someone playing closer to Pav than anyone has been able to get in the last few games. That person cannot be Bent who is, at best, an ALTERNATIVE to Pav, not a partner for him. In the absence of anyone else over 5'6''/9 stone to be the second striker (which, having had enough of naming it after one of my least favourite players of all time, I will change from calling it the Bergkamp role to the Robbie role) why not see if Bentley is even half as good as he seems to think he is - and as he really should be, for the ridiculous amount of money we stumped up for him.
5) Last but not least (for now), I'll eschew the obvious (ie make sure that clown Gilberto gets nowhere near the first team ever again) and go for something far more controversial: make sure that honest-as-they-come-but-so-slow-it's-ridiculous-fans'-favourite Jamie O'Hara gets nowhere near the first team either. To the buffoons who sing his name, just because he puts his foot in and runs around a bit (although when I say run did anyone see him allowing Pompey players to go past him at jogging pace all day yesterday?) I have the following message: is this really what it's come to? A deeply limited player - who happens to look like half the crowd, and not one of those suspicious looking 'exotic hairband types', and so apparently can do no wrong in the eyes of some people - puts the occasional bit of huff and puff in AND BECOMES A CROWD HERO??? We are talking about Tottenham Fucking Hotspur here, not Rochdale or Bury. He's not good enough, he never will be good enough, his position in the club was just about right when Ramos arrived (out on loan in a lower division - and not getting a game!) and personally speaking, I think that the sooner Ramos starts to concentrate on getting the best out of the real class acts (eg Modric) and stops his odd fixation with someone who looks like a competition winner who's ended up in the Premier League, the sooner we will have a chance of getting back to playing the way we should be playing....
Ah, glad to have got that off my chest....
PS - I assume you've all noticed that MJ's Hamburg won again yesterday, and are still top of the Bundesliga? I wonder what the German is for Schadenfreude.....?

[Revan]

Lets all put tactics t one side for a moment and take up the really issue, who should go? Ramos, Comilli or both?

Ramos since the CC final has won three games out of 18 and lost 8. Is that good enough? Comolli has screwed up every transfer window he has been in charge of. Paying for over priced players and not replacing quality ones. Neither should be safe but why have us fans never called for there heads?

Ramos people might wanna give more time to but why arent we cahnting for Comolli's sacking?

[Paxtonite]

Well, at least a newbie on this forum. But I have been watching Tottenham since long before the last time were this bad (the mid 70s vintage looked similarly aimless and directionless - and I'm sure nobody needs reminding what happened to them....)
So, for what it's worth, here's my two pennorth. Beginning from a starting point of reality - in other words, the here and now, not the 'what might have beens' of a different outcome over the summer transfer window - my thoughts, in no particular order are:
1) At least try to find some semblance of a settled, first choice 11 and give them a chance to gel. All the constant chopping and changing smacks of a lack of confidence, and this has clearly been transmitted to the players, and now the fans (hence the chant when Big Pav gave way to Bent yesterday.)
2) Following on from above, more specifically decide on who, when fit, constitute the first choice back four. For instance, can anyone see the logic of picking Corluka at centre back last week v Wigan (where I thought he looked quite assured) over Dawson, then bringing in Dawson yesterday and shifting Corluka back out right? It looks like tinkering for tinkering's sake - I know tactics and team selection are not always as straightforward as we 'mere fans' sometimes think, but for fuck's sake how hard can it be??? At least Jol, while no rocket scientist admittedly, brought a kind of logic to the things he did, which in turn bore some sense of continuity and stability.
3) Give Lennon - the only creative player who's looked half way decent this season, and the only one who has actually improved his performance AND his attitude - a run of games.
4) I seem to recall that one of the reasons why preening, over priced pretty boy Bentley left Arse was because he fancied himself in the Bergkamp role, but that he never got a fair chance (ahhh, diddums) because it was occupied by....er...Bergkamp. So, why not put our (ridiculously over inflated at £17 million) money where our mouth is and be the club to give him that chance? We DESPERATELY need someone playing closer to Pav than anyone has been able to get in the last few games. That person cannot be Bent who is, at best, an ALTERNATIVE to Pav, not a partner for him. In the absence of anyone else over 5'6''/9 stone to be the second striker (which, having had enough of naming it after one of my least favourite players of all time, I will change from calling it the Bergkamp role to the Robbie role) why not see if Bentley is even half as good as he seems to think he is - and as he really should be, for the ridiculous amount of money we stumped up for him.
5) Last but not least (for now), I'll eschew the obvious (ie make sure that clown Gilberto gets nowhere near the first team ever again) and go for something far more controversial: make sure that honest-as-they-come-but-so-slow-it's-ridiculous-fans'-favourite Jamie O'Hara gets nowhere near the first team either. To the buffoons who sing his name, just because he puts his foot in and runs around a bit (although when I say run did anyone see him allowing Pompey players to go past him at jogging pace all day yesterday?) I have the following message: is this really what it's come to? A deeply limited player - who happens to look like half the crowd, and not one of those suspicious looking 'exotic hairband types', and so apparently can do no wrong in the eyes of some people - puts the occasional bit of huff and puff in AND BECOMES A CROWD HERO??? We are talking about Tottenham Fucking Hotspur here, not Rochdale or Bury. He's not good enough, he never will be good enough, his position in the club was just about right when Ramos arrived (out on loan in a lower division - and not getting a game!) and personally speaking, I think that the sooner Ramos starts to concentrate on getting the best out of the real class acts (eg Modric) and stops his odd fixation with someone who looks like a competition winner who's ended up in the Premier League, the sooner we will have a chance of getting back to playing the way we should be playing....
Ah, glad to have got that off my chest....
PS - I assume you've all noticed that MJ's Hamburg won again yesterday, and are still top of the Bundesliga? I wonder what the German is for Schadenfreude.....?

Newbie welcome! Excellent post and totally agree.

:clap::clap:

[Lucky22]

I have to say that was a superb analysis and spot on. One of biggest problems for many seasons has been the midfield and, by that, I mean a lynchpin in the middle of the park to hold the whole team together. As much as I like Jenas and feel, at times, he takes a lot of undeserved flak, he is not the answer. For me, Modric is, but only if the midfield includes some of flair players, such as Lennon or Dos Santos. Yesterday, with the two workhorses of Zokora and O'Hara beside him, Jenas should have been busting a gut to get forward at every opportunity - sadly it didn't happen and that is where the system (among other things) fell down.
We need a consistent spine and I feel that with Gomes, Woody and now Pav are the central characters - but we still need the lynchpin. Every successful side in the world has a key figure in their engine room, and that is what we are lacking. Yes, Modric has been injured, but then you have to build a system that covers that. Jenas had his chance again and he has let us down. Saying that, Ramos playing Gilberto on the left and moving Corluka to right back didn't help matters.

Finally, two things. The points about O'Hara being poor and always going backwards instead of forwards are a bit short sighted. We need confidence and at least he is allowing us to keep possession. The fact that the passes go backwards say more for those in front of him, than his actual ability. At least he is showing passion and fight for the cause and, when he does pass backwards, he's always moving to get the ball back.
Lastly, Pav is a hard worker who is getting into some great positions. A little support yesterday and he'd have had his name on the scoresheet for certain. A lot of you fired the same accusations at Berbatov when he arrived - remember it took him until Christmas to start firing. At least Pav is working his arse off in a thankless task - I couldn't see Berbatov doing the same. Another difference is, Pav has scored this season - Berbatov (or Keane for that matter) hasn't.

[richardh]

I really wanted to pick a 4-4-2 as I hate seeng Pav who's clearly so talented being isolated but do you not see how weak that central midfield is. Even if it were Modric and Tainio then maybe it'd work, Modric and Mendes certainly would have done but Modric and Jenas? Unless Jenas really starts to show the potential he's threatened to for seasons then that midfield pairing simply doesn't work as there's no one in there to break up the play or sit in front of the defence when needed.

My whole point was that we need a good DM to cover the uncertain defence and plug the hole in midfield. At the minute that's got to be Zokora but he just doesn't function in a 4-4-2 where he looks awful. In a 4-5-1 he's been one of our best players but to accomodate that it has to be 1 up front with the support coming from midfield.

I know I'm placing the whole blame on Jenas here but it's not that simple. Dropping Jenas would allow us to play a formation and style that suits our current personnel.

we simply cant play 4-5-1 end of story.

[StokeSpur]

I think that Ramos got one player he wanted this summer, Modric. I think Ramos wanted to build a team around this player but he had to use what was got for him and we are now seeing the end result from this mental way we do things.

I think he's been fkd over, in a way, by a greedy Levy. I think Levy has not learnt as much as he should have by now and he should take a good long look at how he does things, that said, i do believe that he believes he's doing the best he can for Spurs and i dont think there are many better chairmen out there than Levy, he just needs to learn quicker and stop making repete mistakes.

We were too quick to sell seasoned premiership players too imo. When you have a manager of Ramos's capability, surely it makes sense to buy who he wants and sod the DOF role, let Ramos build his team and let Comolli scout and buy young players who have enough about them to come and learn Ramos's systems instead of throwing them to the lions straight away, all were doing is shattering their confidence, we seem to buy good young talent and destroy it. When they come to us its because they are a star at the club their at, they are high on confidence because their doing so well, then they come and doubt gets put in their mind, 'well maybe i'm not so good after all', 'maybe this level is too much for me'.

We need a first 11 of quality & experience who the kids can watch and learn from, enjoy their time with us and get some time on the pitch via the bench now and again and improve as players. We should have this in place by now the amount of time and money the club has had but we always seem to go one step forward and two backwards.

All i want is for Ramos to get a team in his mind that he thinks is the best team and play it all the fkn time, i like the 451/433 system and agree with a lot of your well thought out points Rob, its the best formation for our players atm but certain things have to happen.
Hutton needs to get fit so that Corluka can partner Woody when King has to rest then play Hutton, Woody, Corluka, Bale accross the back four all the time, use King as cover for injury (and ekotto for Bale).

Also like you i am becoming a big fan of Pav, his work rate reminds me of Kuyt (who dosnt half put a shift in every game btw), like you say, his trouble is being marked out of games but here is another area where i feel we let ourselves down because our midfield never seem to 'be there' on time to gather any 2nd ball, fine, get it up to Pav but ffs get there for the knock down. One of us, and in a mid of JJ, Zok and O'Hara who you sugest, it would have to be JJ who is following the long ball up the pitch and expecting Pav to win it. Here lies the problem, Zok and O'Hara sit too deep for this role and JJ often comes back too far to be the one who anticipates Pavs knock down or lay off.

Its because of our confidence that we sit so deep, we do not move forward as a unit when we have the ball, many time its moved to the wing and insted of it going forward its passed sideways or backwards.
One thing is for sure, Ramos has got to start doing something and doing it quickly because the longer we're down there the harder the games will be, you can always see fight in the relegation battling clubs teams but sadly, none in ours.

Make Woody captain.
Pick the same 11 for more than a game.
play to our strengths and not others weaknesses (for now)

[ChrisW]

I'm a newbie myself and I figured I'd have my say.

Unless you have seriously top class forward players 4-5-1 doesn't work in the premiership, the defenders end up getting jumpy, humping the ball forward from inside your own half and the lone striker gets "fairly challenged (or kicked in real terms) and loses the ball.

4-4-2 seems to be the only formation english league players really understand.

Also if you can't play Bent and Pav together, how's about putting GDS in the hole? Just a thought, his running is bound to scare defenders and I feel he's best placed to fill the Robbie Keane sized hole in the team. I think Bentley will eventually get his eye in a prove his worth out on the right wing and is best left there to settle.

P.S.

Never ever play Assou-Ekkoto again!

[gloryglory]

we simply cant play 4-5-1 end of story.

We can't play anything else. A squad with only 2 strikers (no, I don't count Campbell) can't play both of them in every game. Even if they both miraculously avoided injury all season long, they'd be knackered. But there's no scope for partnership between the two, neither will create for the other, so it's a complete waste of a player to start both. One or other - Bent for me.

And we don't have a 2-man central mdifield combo that can win midfield battles and create chances either, so 4-5-1 is win-win. It allows us to play our three best central midfielders, Zokora, Jenas and Modric, and all of them can play to their strengths. All you need after that is support for the striker from the wingers - so that means a combination of Bentley on the left, Giovanni on the right, or Lennon on either.

[mil1lion]

What total pants, sorry but it need to be said. We cant play one up front as our midfield dont suport the striker. Might as well become Bolton Hotspur, shocking thing to say. Pav isnt a good player, he is over priced and doesnt know when to shot. For god sake how many times is he gonna shot from 30yards, totally idiot. He is a easy way of playing the player we need.



But i for one think we can in fact play 4-5-1. Its just that, the three players that suit that formation haven't played much recently. In fact, as soon as Giovani and Lennon have come on in that formation, it looks a lot more effective. But yesterday we played with 2 of the slowest players we have out wide, in Gilberto and Bentley. The 4-5-1 would work with Giovani, Lennon and Modric. Although the biggest question is where the goals will come from. When Barca play that formation, they have several goalscorers from midfield. But more importantly, the wide players score plenty of goals. There isn't enough goals from Lennon and Giovani so we'd need Modric to chip in and Jenas to break forward and score goals too. Either that or sacrifice Jenas for a striker, but that would cause Zokor problems and we'd more likely concede too many goals.

[InOffMeLeftShin]

But i for one think we can in fact play 4-5-1. Its just that, the three players that suit that formation haven't played much recently. In fact, as soon as Giovani and Lennon have come on in that formation, it looks a lot more effective. But yesterday we played with 2 of the slowest players we have out wide, in Gilberto and Bentley. The 4-5-1 would work with Giovani, Lennon and Modric. Although the biggest question is where the goals will come from. When Barca play that formation, they have several goalscorers from midfield. But more importantly, the wide players score plenty of goals. There isn't enough goals from Lennon and Giovani so we'd need Modric to chip in and Jenas to break forward and score goals too. Either that or sacrifice Jenas for a striker, but that would cause Zokor problems and we'd more likely concede too many goals.

It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.

[ChrisW]

It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.


Is Campbell ever going to play? I was begining to wonder if he'd been brought in to carry the brown envelope Levy got for selling Berbatov!

:oops:

[Arjuanchivas]

Jol and his team are top of the Bundesliga... says it all to me.

[mil1lion]

I think that Ramos got one player he wanted this summer, Modric. I think Ramos wanted to build a team around this player but he had to use what was got for him and we are now seeing the end result from this mental way we do things.

I doubt it very much. He definately wanted Giovani, i'm sure of that. I'm sure he wanted Bentley and Gomes too. And, although possibly not his first choice from the start, he probably wanted Pavyluchenko (his no 1 targets were probably the likes of Eto'o and Villa.) But its the players he wanted up front but didn't get that have caused a big problem. Seriously, who can argue with the players we signed? They are all great additions. Its just that we also needed a defensive midfielder and at least 1 more striker too. The priority was wrong. We needed a defensive midfielder more than anymore attacking ones. And we needed another striker more than another two wingers.

If we had signed Arshavin though, i think we would have been much better off.

It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.

Thats the biggest problem with Lennon i have to admit. He isn't a wide attacker, which is really whats needed in a formation with one striker. But he is great at providing chances because of his pace. I think Giovani is best suited to the formation though.

In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think towards a 4-4-2 with Modric coming in from the left, Giovani coming in from the right and the fullbacks overlapping. And Zokora and Jenas in the middle with Pavylchenko and Bent up front.

[mil1lion]

Jol and his team are top of the Bundesliga... says it all to me.

Yeah, says it all to me too. The Bundesliga is a lot weaker than the Premier League. And its only the start of the season.

[Gilzean's Hairdresser]

I doubt it very much. He definately wanted Giovani, i'm sure of that. I'm sure he wanted Bentley and Gomes too. And, although possibly not his first choice from the start, he probably wanted Pavyluchenko (his no 1 targets were probably the likes of Eto'o and Villa.) But its the players he wanted up front but didn't get that have caused a big problem. Seriously, who can argue with the players we signed? They are all great additions. Its just that we also needed a defensive midfielder and at least 1 more striker too. The priority was wrong. We needed a defensive midfielder more than anymore attacking ones. And we needed another striker more than another two wingers.

If we had signed Arshavin though, i think we would have been much better off.



Thats the biggest problem with Lennon i have to admit. He isn't a wide attacker, which is really whats needed in a formation with one striker. But he is great at providing chances because of his pace. I think Giovani is best suited to the formation though.

In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think towards a 4-4-2 with Modric coming in from the left, Giovani coming in from the right and the fullbacks overlapping. And Zokora and Jenas in the middle with Pavylchenko and Bent up front.

I'm confused (but then I am new here....) You want to play 4-4-2 with Pav and Bent upfront, but your specified 1st 11, right next to the lovely little cartoon drawings at the bottom of your post, seems to suggest a 4-5-1 with Bent on the bench. With this level of indecision, I'd leave your mobile on if I were you - you might get a call to be the next gaffer.....

[SelbYido]

Jol and his team are top of the Bundesliga... says it all to me.

Yep, it says Jol doesn't manage us any more & people should get over it as he isn't coming back any time soon. He's irrelevant. Top bloke, good coach but nonetheless, irrelevant.

As for Rob's post, I mostly agree but I'd still have Jenas in above O'Hara as I think JJ's a better all rounder than O'Hara & although O'Hara may have 'fighting spirit', JJ is every bit as capable of pressing & tackling & arguably poses a greater threat to the opposition's goal.

[Arjuanchivas]

"Says it all to me that Jol is top of the Bundesliga".. What I am trying to say you numpty is that Jol nor Ramos is the problem. Comoli is however with his weird selling and buying strategy..

Comoli out.. it has been enough. And the Bundesliga a weak competition? Grow up.. Congrats to Jol I say!!

[mickey hazzard]

unbelievable, give me the spurs job pls, for starters i would have put lennon and dos santos on from the start, why was ledley king on the bench? why does ramos and co have so much faith in jenas? ramos did a good job clearing out the riff raff and selling them on to sunderland and portsmouth though i didnt like the fact we got rid of malbranque, maybe he should of added jenas zokora and dawson to the clear out list, jenas has been with us long enough now to prove his worth, hes too inconsistent and hot and cold, u never know what kind of game u are going to get from him and that is not good enough for us, zokora is a very ineffective DM, he gives the ball away and dosent make a big enough presence in midfield, as for dawson after a promising start for us i now feel hes a liability,we will not and i repeat WE WILL NOT GET RELEGATED,far too much talent in the squad for that, but if we do not consistently select a strong team and put the players i have mentioned (jenas,zokora,dawson)on the bench more often then it will be a very close call!!!

[SelbYido]

"Says it all to me that Jol is top of the Bundesliga".. What I am trying to say you numpty is that Jol nor Ramos is the problem. Comoli is however with his weird selling and buying strategy..

Comoli out.. it has been enough. And the Bundesliga a weak competition? Grow up.. Congrats to Jol I say!!

Sorry mate, I'm just getting completely sick of people going on about Jol all the time, not particularly aimed at you. As I said, I've nothing against Jol at all & I wish him well.

On the subject of Comolli, its well documented that buying & selling at Spurs is done by comittee so logically, all of that group share the responsibility for both successes & failures. Why, therefore, is Comolli more to blame than Ramos or Levy? I would suggest that Levy's brinkmanship in the Berbatov deal & Ramos' selections/tactics bear as much responsibility for our current predicament although actually, like pretty much every other Spurs fan, I don't know what actually went on in these situations & who played what role. It just seems to be a case of "If in doubt, blame Comolli..."

[Liquidator]

PS - I assume you've all noticed that MJ's Hamburg won again yesterday, and are still top of the Bundesliga? I wonder what the German is for Schadenfreude.....?

nice name, nice gag, Gilzy.

I needed cheering up. Thanks.

[SpursMadDave]

Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.
I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...

[Mattspur]

I'd like to see:

Gomez

Hutton Corluka/King Woodgate Bale

Huddlestone/Zokora
Lennon Bently Modric Dos Santos

Pavlachenco

[hansolsen]

o hara is awful jenas is amuch better player but to get the best out of him he needs to play unrestricted making forward runs.

[mil1lion]

I'm confused (but then I am new here....) You want to play 4-4-2 with Pav and Bent upfront, but your specified 1st 11, right next to the lovely little cartoon drawings at the bottom of your post, seems to suggest a 4-5-1 with Bent on the bench. With this level of indecision, I'd leave your mobile on if I were you - you might get a call to be the next gaffer.....

Yeah, thanks for noticing how confused i am :-) I am currently thinking of the 4-5-1 but i can see why 4-4-2 could also work. My initial post was for a 4-5-1 but i was just contemplating whether we could play 4-4-2, and if we did, then i would think that Modric on the left could be a good option.

[robbiebear]

Bring back Martin Jol. We're gonna get no where with 4-5-1. If we don't look like scoring on the pitch i.e vs Portsmouth, then we're not going to score.

[spurs_viola]

The fault is not Ramos but our squad.

Ramos was brought in to push us onto the next level - and it won't come easily. The players need to develop the positional awareness, stamina and technique to implement his vision.

Under Jol we were 5th back-to-back. We could very well continue this way - we played simple football, relying our 1 or 2 star players to make things happen (Carrick, Berbatov). Not only was this unsustainable, it was also limited because better teams could simply scuff out our key players. We lacked variety, but we get results quickly - simply because we have better quality all over the field compared with any team apart from the top 4. Our forward players such as Lennon only needs to focus on what he does best - running down the byline.

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina. Players such as Zokora and Dawson will struggle.

I applaud Levy's ambition and courage. I think he has done the right thing. What is needed now is judgement - how much time would Ramos realistically have to implement his vision given the limited ability of the players? How much patience could fans/the board afford before reverting back to our usual ways?

One of the best posts on SC I have read for a while now. It should be so clear to any objective observer and supporter who has managed to stay panic-free (which is indeed getting harder to achieve, I admit) that Ramos' vision for the team requires several differences in the squad he has to work with.

I don't think he wanted to change almost the whole 1st team personnel in one summer - which is more or less what he has to do now. I believe the first stage of team's regeneration was to replace players who seemed to reach their limit and whose best was not good enough (Stalteri, Lee, Chimbonda, Malbranque, Tainio) with younger, more versatile players with more potential and quality; but losing Keane and Berbatov in the same summer put a huge dent in these plans, as Ramos lost both of the experienced forwards who would have provided the focal points for the new young players, so ruining the shape and the potency of the team he was trying to assemble.

The second stage, I think, may have been the further improvements of personnel, replacing the players who after having a full season under Ramos would not have shown enough progress - and this would have included people like Jenas, Dawson, Assou Ekotto, Bent possibly going next summer or even in January if we had a good bid for any of them.

With transfer period having concluded so disappointingly and the season starting so miserably, Ramos has to ride the tide and hope he is given time and support to realize his vision for Spurs - which is to develop the modern, fast, skillful, flexible play and make the team successful with it, competing on all fronts including Premiership top 4 - like he did with Sevilla, where he had full support and good understanding with Monchi (their Director of Football) and developed a fast, skillful, stylish and successful team who recovered from the losses of star players like Baptista, Sergio Ramos, Reyes in subsequent seasons and went on to become better.

[Gilzean's Hairdresser]

Whether it's 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, I don't think anyone on this site seriously doubts that Ramos is a smarter, more sophisticated coach than Jol. Although I loved Jol as a bloke, and appreciated what he did for us as a club, the decision to jettison him in favour of Ramos made some sense - if only because the continuing failure of Jol's team to win against the 4 clubs above us made progress to the top 4 virtually impossible.
So, we needed to find a way of playing that was cuter, faster and more modern and it seemed that Ramos was the man to do it. What is now interesting - and potentially crucial for the future of the club - is how the manager handles our disastrous start to the season. Does he have the strength of character to go with his proven tactical acumen? Will he stick to his guns or buckle under pressure and seek a different way? Most of all, will he put the disappointment of an undoubtedly frustrating summer transfer window behind him and start to deal with the reality of the situation - that until January at least, the present squad is all he has to work with, whether he likes it or not.
We can all have dreams of 'what if' and 'what might have been'. Many of mine involve me living in a New York penthouse, playing golf with the 81 cup winning team by day, before returning home for cocktails and dinner prepared by a naked Kelly Brook, who is having treatment - unsuccessful, as it happens - for her sex addiction. But the thing is - IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! We are not going to get Berba or Robbie or Carrick or Jol or Dave Bloody Mackay back, so it's all about dealing with the reality of the situation, and in the end it comes down to a few simple questions: is the man that the board moved heaven and earth to get to the club - risking ridicule and abuse from the media and rival fans along the way - is he really, truly made of the right stuff? Can he shut himself off from all the crap coming his way at the moment and stick to his principles, galvanising a group of players who, for all that they may be short in one or two areas, are really not that bad on paper? (Certainly if you look at our first choice line up and, say, that of high riding Aston Villa's, on paper I'd take ours every time.) Does he have the belief in himself to, in turn, pass on that all important sense of belief to the team?
His body language on the touch line and increasingly erratic (bordering on bizarre) team selection suggests that, worryingly, he may be feeling the pressure and/or have lost his nerve. We had all better hope, for the short and long term future of our club, that this is not the case.

[brasil_spur]

Brilliant post Rob and i'm completley in agreement with you.

I honestly wouldn't be suprised if Jenas has something in his contract about the number of matches minimum he plays per season when fit, as i can't remember seeing our midfield play without him for more than 2-3 games in a row since he joined us, and there have definitley been times where his form has not warranted a start for us.

[Revan]

I think Levy should get rid of Raos and Com and bring back Terry Venables!!!

[martinj]

I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...
SPURSMADDAVE I know you were being facetious but there is some truth in this approach to the 4-5-1 / 4-4-2 argument. We have several players who can play as support to a main striker as well as a winger/wide midfielder : G2S, Bentley, Lennon, Modric, Jenas ( if he gets his act together ) and Taraabt ( if Ramos hasn't completely given up on him ). In a flexible system we could play one front man with several fast attacking midfielders able to either deliver from the wings or move centrally to support and score from the striker's knock-down or hold-up play. What numerical system we describe this as is academic and ( provided the team develops some understanding and co-ordination and don't all rush in together ) could make the most of our skillful attacking midfielders whilst minimizing the scarcity of true front men in our line-up.
The critical point which was painfully illustrated on Sunday is that if we don't have someone in midfield who can start the attacks, deliver the ball accurately and have the tactical nous to see potential attacks then all the skill up front is wasted. No amount of Jenas, O'hara and Zokora passing sideways or backwards will help whichever number system we adopt.
Modric was bought specifically to fill this role which was also badly lacking last season and was probably cause of a lot of Bulgarian moaning. I am still hopeful that Modric will get up to speed and could in a free "sixpence in the pudding" role join the dots between a lot of talented but unco-ordinated players. If this doesn't happen we're likely to flap around with little hope until we can buy and bed in someone else

[Arjuanchivas]

I still can not figure out why nobody blames Levy / Comoli.. We were going places under Jol.. building something beautiful. Then all off a sudden at the end of the second year (5th) they started looking for a new manager.. rumours about Ramos.. Klinsmann.. but FFS why? Because of a bad spell of games?

Ramos (Good manager) came and won the cup with Jols (better; Arnesens) team.. So the team we had had sufficient potential to win trophies. It just needed small changes. We were so close!!!

But now we are back at square one. We have lost all positive feelings.. We´re bottom of the league.. what we have built is completely gone. Thanks to Levy / Comoli in my opinion..

Ramos is a good coach.. and I stand behind him... but if we go on like this (sacking good managers after bad spells, sell players without taqking care of proper replacements) we will never ever ever become a top team.

I am so dissapointed.. in the board

[SpursMadDave]

I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...
SPURSMADDAVE I know you were being facetious but there is some truth in this approach to the 4-5-1 / 4-4-2 argument. We have several players who can play as support to a main striker as well as a winger/wide midfielder : G2S, Bentley, Lennon, Modric, Jenas ( if he gets his act together ) and Taraabt ( if Ramos hasn't completely given up on him ). In a flexible system we could play one front man with several fast attacking midfielders able to either deliver from the wings or move centrally to support and score from the striker's knock-down or hold-up play. What numerical system we describe this as is academic and ( provided the team develops some understanding and co-ordination and don't all rush in together ) could make the most of our skillful attacking midfielders whilst minimizing the scarcity of true front men in our line-up.
The critical point which was painfully illustrated on Sunday is that if we don't have someone in midfield who can start the attacks, deliver the ball accurately and have the tactical nous to see potential attacks then all the skill up front is wasted. No amount of Jenas, O'hara and Zokora passing sideways or backwards will help whichever number system we adopt.
Modric was bought specifically to fill this role which was also badly lacking last season and was probably cause of a lot of Bulgarian moaning. I am still hopeful that Modric will get up to speed and could in a free "sixpence in the pudding" role join the dots between a lot of talented but unco-ordinated players. If this doesn't happen we're likely to flap around with little hope until we can buy and bed in someone else

Completely agree....

With just a bit of belief and a midfield made up of Modric + 2 from (Zokora/Jenas/Hudd/O'Hara) 2 pacy wingers from (Lennon/Bale/Dos Santos/Bentley - ok no pace at all) and a hard working centre forward (Pav or Bent) we CAN win games and dominate.

I didnt think we played that badly first half against Pompey, then 2 bad bits of luck, Jenas waving at his b/f in stand giving away a penalty and then the referee tripping over his guide dog and missing Diarra doing the same! Confidence ZERO!

In fact Diarra played just how I would like Modric to play, he was at the centre of all that Pompey did.

COYS!!!! (please... im getting seriously pissed off with the WHU fans I work with.....)

[2bearis2do]

I still can not figure out why nobody blames Levy / Comoli.. We were going places under Jol.. building something beautiful. Then all off a sudden at the end of the second year (5th) they started looking for a new manager.. rumours about Ramos.. Klinsmann.. but FFS why? Because of a bad spell of games?

Ramos (Good manager) came and won the cup with Jols (better; Arnesens) team.. So the team we had had sufficient potential to win trophies. It just needed small changes. We were so close!!!

But now we are back at square one. We have lost all positive feelings.. We´re bottom of the league.. what we have built is completely gone. Thanks to Levy / Comoli in my opinion..

Ramos is a good coach.. and I stand behind him... but if we go on like this (sacking good managers after bad spells, sell players without taqking care of proper replacements) we will never ever ever become a top team.

I am so dissapointed.. in the board

:clap::clap:

I agree.

I've posted far too many times on this site to repeat all my grievances. But we are one rudderless, useless ship at the moment with a big feck off hole in the engine room. I see what Ramos is trying to do and with time it may well work. But the timings of buying and selling players has really fecked up our and indeed his season and for that and the few extra mill we got, one can only blame the board.
Every point we drop, every place we slip down the table (not possible now!) is half a million down the tubes. Was it really worth fecking up our whole season to hang on to Berbs for a few extra million, until the last minute of the season? With no proper replacement? I think not.
Make a few million, but we don't spend a few million extra on someone like Arshavin? Unbelievably bad business from the Spurs board. Of course we want to balance the books, but the real profit is made in having a successful team, well I don't see it happening with this current squad. The January transfer window will back this theory up.

Bent. Kaboul, KPB....30million...great business?!? Commoli, you're having a larf.

We won't get relegated, we'll improve, but just like the Geordies we have another wasted season to look forward to after another summer of incompetence. Depressing, annoying, frustrating and all part and parcel of being born a Spurs fan.

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

Gomes
Hutton Woodgate King Bale
Bentley Corluka Modric Lennon
Pavluychenko Bent

Goalkeeper - we all seem at least fairly happy with Gomes

Fullbacks - need to be fairly speedy to attack as well as defend. So not Corluka but possibly Zokora (R/L). Preferably Hutton (R) & Bale (L) but always happy with Gunter (R/L)

Centrebacks -Woody & Ledley both fit would be perfect. Corluka is good cover for either. Dawson, not so good but not always so bad either. Zokora can also cover here if we're desperate but only with Woody & Leds (& maybe Corluka but we don't know quite how well he'll take the lead role just yet).

Centre midfield - Modric must play - if not why the hell did we pay all that money. Along side him I want a solid player who reads the game well and is neat and tidy. So far this season I've not seen one, other than flashes from O'Hara, Jenas & Zokora - and all while we're playing 3 in the middle which isn't good enough. I'm told Corluka can play there and he certainly has all the attributes (like Leds). He's best mates with Modric and they should have an instant understanding.

Wide players - Playing 4-4-2, we work best with one true winger and one wide midfielder (Lennon & Davids anyone). So, Bentley (again, we paid a fortune so get him played) and either Lennon or Giovani. We have other options out here if these players are unavailable, Bale (playing Gunter or even BAE behind him), Jenas (the only way he should get a game), Campbell or even Modric (though who then fills his centre role is currently beyond me).

Strikers - Pavlyuchenko has shown signs that he could be just what we need and along side him, either Bent or Campbell. I don't understand Gus saying Pav & Bent are too similar. Pav is a big target man with a good touch and Bent is a speed merchant who plays off the last defender. It's your classic 'little & large' combination except Bent isn't that little. And if it needs mixing up, there's always Campbell (why oh why wasn't he even on the bench on Sunday).

So, this looks like a pretty good side to me. (The right) two new players in January and it will be awesome.
I still assume we got Pav with the expectation that Arshavin would follow.
Then, it seems we had all our holding midfield eggs in Veloso's basket and he turned us down, so we threw a last minute £15m at Portsmouth for Diarra. Either would have been a good buy but add to that Palombo, De La Red, Albelda or even Jimmy bloody Bullard (and there must be dozens that I don't even know the names of). Surely, we could get one of them (better still 2) in January.

This team could win the league.

Gomes
Hutton Woody King Bale
Bentley Palombo Modric Lennon
Pavlyuchenko Arshavin

[hodspurs]

ramos has said himself he wants to play 4 4 2.and i hope he starts awith that at the weekend. with no pav on thursday and it being a euro away game i expect we will go 4 5 1.
........gomes
gunter king woody bale
bentley jj zokora o'hara
........modric
........bent


sunday back to the prem against a team that could bully us,so 4 4 2...
.........gomes
gunter corluka woody bale
bentley jj zokora lennon
....campbell pav (or bent since they cant plasy together).....

[hodspurs]

Gomes
Hutton Woodgate King Bale
Bentley Corluka Modric Lennon
Pavluychenko Bent

Goalkeeper - we all seem at least fairly happy with Gomes

Fullbacks - need to be fairly speedy to attack as well as defend. So not Corluka but possibly Zokora (R/L). Preferably Hutton (R) & Bale (L) but always happy with Gunter (R/L)

Centrebacks -Woody & Ledley both fit would be perfect. Corluka is good cover for either. Dawson, not so good but not always so bad either. Zokora can also cover here if we're desperate but only with Woody & Leds (& maybe Corluka but we don't know quite how well he'll take the lead role just yet).

Centre midfield - Modric must play - if not why the hell did we pay all that money. Along side him I want a solid player who reads the game well and is neat and tidy. So far this season I've not seen one, other than flashes from O'Hara, Jenas & Zokora - and all while we're playing 3 in the middle which isn't good enough. I'm told Corluka can play there and he certainly has all the attributes (like Leds). He's best mates with Modric and they should have an instant understanding.

Wide players - Playing 4-4-2, we work best with one true winger and one wide midfielder (Lennon & Davids anyone). So, Bentley (again, we paid a fortune so get him played) and either Lennon or Giovani. We have other options out here if these players are unavailable, Bale (playing Gunter or even BAE behind him), Jenas (the only way he should get a game), Campbell or even Modric (though who then fills his centre role is currently beyond me).

Strikers - Pavlyuchenko has shown signs that he could be just what we need and along side him, either Bent or Campbell. I don't understand Gus saying Pav & Bent are too similar. Pav is a big target man with a good touch and Bent is a speed merchant who plays off the last defender. It's your classic 'little & large' combination except Bent isn't that little. And if it needs mixing up, there's always Campbell (why oh why wasn't he even on the bench on Sunday).

So, this looks like a pretty good side to me. (The right) two new players in January and it will be awesome.
I still assume we got Pav with the expectation that Arshavin would follow.
Then, it seems we had all our holding midfield eggs in Veloso's basket and he turned us down, so we threw a last minute £15m at Portsmouth for Diarra. Either would have been a good buy but add to that Palombo, De La Red, Albelda or even Jimmy bloody Bullard (and there must be dozens that I don't even know the names of). Surely, we could get one of them (better still 2) in January.

This team could win the league.

Gomes
Hutton Woody King Bale
Bentley Palombo Modric Lennon
Pavlyuchenko Arshavini could not believe what gus said about pav and bent,they are totally differant players in my eyes.bent can play on the last defender while pav holds the ball up or flicks it on...strange..:shrug:

[rooster1]

:clap::clap:

I agree.

I've posted far too many times on this site to repeat all my grievances. But we are one rudderless, useless ship at the moment with a big feck off hole in the engine room. I see what Ramos is trying to do and with time it may well work. But the timings of buying and selling players has really fecked up our and indeed his season and for that and the few extra mill we got, one can only blame the board.
Every point we drop, every place we slip down the table (not possible now!) is half a million down the tubes. Was it really worth fecking up our whole season to hang on to Berbs for a few extra million, until the last minute of the season? With no proper replacement? I think not.
Make a few million, but we don't spend a few million extra on someone like Arshavin? Unbelievably bad business from the Spurs board. Of course we want to balance the books, but the real profit is made in having a successful team, well I don't see it happening with this current squad. The January transfer window will back this theory up.

Bent. Kaboul, KPB....30million...great business?!? Commoli, you're having a larf.

We won't get relegated, we'll improve, but just like the Geordies we have another wasted season to look forward to after another summer of incompetence. Depressing, annoying, frustrating and all part and parcel of being born a Spurs fan.

Yep. I agree with all of that.
Another thing is that when the Jan window comes we are going to be out muscled by the likes of citeh or maybe even the barcodes when it comes to getting the quality we need.

Funny ol world isn't it.

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

Another thing is that when the Jan window comes we are going to be out muscled by the likes of citeh or maybe even the barcodes when it comes to getting the quality we need.

Funny ol world isn't it.

Or, if we get bought out by some mystery billionaire Far East investor (as the Guardian suggests), we could be the ones to out muscle everyone else.

[rooster1]

Erm. I prefer your suggestion of a funny ol' world Pat rice Spurs fan.:grin:

[palestinian yid]

Anyone else not seen any evidence that Pavlyuchenko will cut it? Anyone else believe in Bent?

at the moment i'm almost amazed at how bent is overlooked for pav. personally i think its a little odd. i don't really think anyone knows how good pav is but he seems to be our new messiah.

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

Today's 11 was the poorest choice I can remember by a Spurs manager. It made literally no sense. I thought there were 5 or 6 errors out of 11, some of them laughable. We have the players to turn this around, but we don't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.

YES!
And I agreed with the rest of your post too!

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

I was all geared up to reply to this interesting article, until skimming the truly pathetic, learning-disabled chain of responses nearly put me off. Virtually every post, long or short, blames our current difficulties on an individual player, usually Jenas or Zokora, and calls the poster's bête noire "shit" or "a waste of money".

People who have nothing interesting to say could possibly consider shutting up, instead of using internet boards as a vehicle for venting their formless rage at individual Spurs players ... but I don't know why I even bothered writing that. It's not going to make any difference. People will continue to embarrass themselves in public, whatever I say.

Anyway, at least getting that off my chest has restored my desire to comment on the article. There's an elephant in the room and everyone is avoiding mentioning it. Post after post tries to analyse our sputtering midfield and the problems we are having supporting the strikers.

But the "best defence in years" has contrived, in every match so far but one, to look really good for about 86 minutes, yet still concede one or, usually, two goals. Individually, we have an excellent squad, but it is not functioning as a team and the mental weakness of the collective is evident in virtually every minute of play. That is at least as true of our defence as it is of our midfield. The defence isn't working, or at least it isn't doing what it has been designed to do, which is to concede less than one goal per game. That's a realistic target for a defence that expects to finish in the top six: concede no more than 38 goals in a league season.

Perhaps people haven't noticed because we haven't made many defensive howlers, nor have we been on the rough end of a hiding, but the defence isn't functioning any better than the midfield. Not in terms of end product.

I'm guessing that no one's mentioning the defence because Hutton's been injured so far and the rest have changed every game. We kind of assume Ramos knows his best defence (Hutton, Woody, King, Bale) but hasn't been able to play them, whereas he's had all the midfield & stikers avaiable and not been able to find a preferred combination.
And, as far as conceding no more that 38 goals, surely that's not just down to the keeper & defence. We all saw how much more solid we were with Carrick & Davids in the side.