Should Juande Ramos be sacked?

[JimmyG2]

Should Juande Ramos be sacked? The fans are enraged and are demanding some red meat to be thrown to them as a sacrifice. Ramos, Comolli, Levy and of course Jenas are all in the firing line. Its our worst start since the Titanic sank nearly a hundred years ago as the press are delighted to keep telling us.

You can see where the fans are coming from: Martin Jol is top of the league with Hamburg, Hull City are more likely to get into Europe than Spurs, Defoe,Berbatov and Keane, late of this parish, are all doing the business elsewhere. They demand a human sacrifice and soon.

Now this is after seven games with thirty one to go. We are still in four cup competitions. On Saturday we played with heart, especially Jenas, and we outclassed Hull in every department but one.

So will Juande Ramos be sacked? I don't think he will and, given the size of the pay-off, is not likely to quit. Comolli, who to many fans struggles under the twin disadvantages of being ex-Arsenal and French, might be chosen as fall guy but is closely identified with Levy who isn't going anywhere.

Jenas has just been picked for the England squad by Capello, a man not known for not being able to spot a good footballer when he sees one.

So nobody is going anywhere. But the question asked was 'Should Ramos be sacked?' or anyone else for that matter. Again the answer is 'No'. The real question is 'What would it achieve?' apart from soothing the ruffled feathers of the fans and giving us someone at least to blame.

Does the scapegoat philosophy reap any dividends? Apart from destabilising the club and the team, it will achieve nothing. We are where we are and no amount of forensic analysis of our transfer policy will alter it. Comolli's record is patchy but is arguable, little of that can be laid at the door of Ramos and we all know that Levy is quick to lead from the rear when it gets sticky.

Ramos' team selection and substitutions have been difficult to fathom at times but we seem to be on an upward path though too slowly for most. Ramos came to us with a good reputation and solid achievements and just as good players don't become bad ones overnight nor do managers. In any case who of any standing would come to us at the moment? Poyet is deeply involved in all that has gone on and with the same squad would probably fare no better.

I firmly believe that Ramos, Poyet,and the players will turn this round and we might still make a cup run and finish mid table. Not what we set out to achieve at the start of the season but acceptable to most right now.

We have had too many managers and too many newcomers in recent years and need to stick with this one as I believe he has the right credentials and the qualities to bring out the best in this squad. The squad needs some strikers in January and possibly a defensive midfielder but the main thing it needs is support.

It should be made clear to Ramos and the fans that he will be given the rest of the season to get it right and that should we go down he will be be responsible for getting us back up again. Let's have some continuity and trust. Keep your fingers crossed if you like but Ramos' head in the basket will please only the old women knitting in the front row and will be counter productive. Changing the manager is a knee-jerk reaction that rarely improves the situation in the long term.

[nav007_2000]

Well if Ramos is not going to get sacked then someone has to pay and in my opinion it has to be Camolli. His transfers have been very poor and was the main reason why Jol got sacked. I would love to see Jol back. Never gonna have with Levy in charge. Spurs are the laughing stock of the premiership. Do not like what i see.

[gibb]

I was at the game on sunday & for sure we can be guaranteed that Ramos has the players on his side, the team ran their socks off to get a win on sunday - what let us down was the final ball again.
We had loads of balls going into the box which we have'nt seen recently, surely Pav & Bent can benefit from this in the near future, play them week in & week out together & keep putting the ball in the box & the goals will come - fraizer campbell isn't the answer for me.

Give Ramos time - its not his fault that we sold defoe, keane & the bulgarian, surely its the board who have to take the responsibility for that.

When jol was sacked he had lossed the players support & even though we have been playing poor the players at last seem to be giving ramos the effort that he desperately needs from them...

THFC 4EVER.....

[WhippsX]

Many of the fans are baying for blood, but dismissing Ramos at this stage would be suicidal. Admittedly we are in a dire position & desperately need a few wins to restore confidence. Last Sunday's display was much better & gives me confidence that the team will be able to turn things around. However, with the player quality in this team why have we played so poorly? Pavly, Bent, Modric, Gio, Bentley are first class. The manager's tactics/strategy/ substitutions have been questionable & unless we see real progress by November end I'm afraid the guillotine will fall.

[spencerkeegan]

The worst thing that Tottenham could do now is sack Ramos. What would it acheive? Getting another manager in who would no doubt want to change the squad to his liking and would therefore have to wait until January to do that, and that probably would'nt give "another manager" enough time.

Yes many people may view the sacking of Jol a mistake but that is in the past and we cant look back. The biggest mistake we made is when we sold Keane to Liverpool. We all knew that Berbatov was going to leave, but i dont think anyone knew or was prepared for Keane leaving.

Yes it was good business for the club, selling a player who we bought for six million, got six years out of him and sold for £18m at the age of 28. So in a combined a decision to sell two players who scored fifty or so goals between them for the price of fifty million seems like good business. But the biggest mistake came when we simply did'nt replace them. Pavlychenko was bought two days before the end of the transfer window, which to me looks like a panic buy. Not the one of Ramos's choice, as we all know that Pavlychenko and Bent cant play together. Would a man of Ramos's knowledge and experience really want to pair these two together? Keane's transfer to Liverpool was purely a business decison and Levy is at fault for not thinking of the implications his business mind will have on the club, and Comolli is at fault for not getting decent enough placements in.

I for one am backing Ramos all the way, as I believe he is having to make the best of a shit situation which he did'nt have much control over. I pray that he is still here in January, and has more control over our transfers.

COYS

[Pillbug]

Well, I have to say, I have long had issue with the players we have brought in -- some, at least at the prices paid. The lack of a serious DM or deep playmaker, and some obviously questionable investments in Ekotto, Kaboul (mostly bad on personality as he scarcely had a chance to improve) and the Ghetto Kid. Bent has been a debacle, as predicted by many of us here, and I suspect Bentley may improve but not enought to justify the outrageous pricetag created mostly by dint of his passport. ON the sale side, the loss of Steed was apalling, although one thinks that must have been partially under Ramos' encouragement... and of course we all know about the sales of Berb and Keane and how it was carried out, irrespective of whether we really could have held on to them. I can;t blame Comolli that it took until last season with Bale and now, GDS, that we perpetually were without left footed players, and a left footed left winger

I also question why Adel Taraabt has been denied further opportunity, although, again, that is Ramos.

Still the key problems has been with our scouting and purchase decisions. Comolli just has not been very good. people say we are strong on paper... I am not so sure.

And, of course, there will be people who might say to me "oh so you know more about football than the professionals... bah!" This is an understandable reaction, but as a parallel, the CEO of Lehman Brothers surely is more credentialed than entry level agents in the industry, yet many predicted the potential results; none of us would feel ill-equipped to declare that he did a shit job ( and ran with the money ).

The facts bear themselves out. if we were to go back some time on these boards many of us declared Bent was a cock-up and that a DM was needed. Indeed we leak goals due to a lack of any serious football player at said position. One might say, Spurs want to play another way, but the result indicate perhaps they should not.

[blochuk]

What interests me most in the debate of Manager or Director of Football is that fans seem to believe that our current DOF just buys players and shows up with them at the training ground. The idea that Commoli buys a player and says here you are Juande here is Modric see if you can make him gain 50 pounds in the next few weeks and then give him some confidence and turn him into the playmaker we so desperately need.

When you are paying someone Five million pounds a year you have to believe he knows what he is doing and has opinions on football players. As such the Board and Commoli and Ramos all sit down on numerous occassions to discuss what players we need and why.

It was no surprise to any of us that Berbatov was leaving as we knew it for months. We had time to pay Zenit the money they wanted and that Spurs received from Liverpool to replace Keane. Keano for Arshavin would not have been the worse swap in the world.

So my point here is that all are to blame in this situation in terms of players needed or not.

There is only one man to blame when it comes to the actual performance on the pitch and that is the Manager's. He is paid to pick the team and get it playing. I cannot imagine that anyone on here would not believe that Ramos' selection and tactics at times has been at the least baffling and at the most insane. I cannot even start to talk about his tactics or apparent lack of ability to communicate these tactics to the team

Our league form at the end of last season and beginning of this has been appalling. Ramos exudes no confidence whether in press conference or Pitchside. Perhaps he is different in private but from what little I know this is not the case and regardless his apathy pitchside has for the most part translated into the players on the pitch. Chelsea aside we have played supposed easier teams thus far so its only going to get harder once we get Stoke out of the way.

Get to the point I hear you cry.......well if he is going to be sacked it has to be now with the International Break ahead if not its time to hope to fu#@ that Ramos takes the next 2 weeks to grow some passion and clear his head of the 4 -5-1 or 4-1-3-1 or 4-2-2-2-2 he favours and get us playing the way we know we can.

4-4-2 and left footed players on the left and right footed players on the right and a little bit of Audere est facere and you never know

[TutanKlinsmann]

Ramos did have a hand in this mess. He was the one that told Defoe he can leave. And his tactical decisions are questionable.

But sacking him now is not an option. It'll just worsen the situation. Give him untill the end of the season.

But, I'mm still vyng for blood. Sack DC now and get back Arnesen or Venebles as DoF. And hopefully the sell out materialise and eventually see the end of Levy.

[spud]

Well if Ramos is not going to get sacked then someone has to pay and in my opinion it has to be Camolli.

I understand that Commolli is one of the 'gang of four' which identifies areas in the team / squad that need strengthening and then decides which players to go for. He then does the initial 'spade work' before leaving final negotiating to others.

His transfers have been very poor

They are not, therefore, by definition, 'his' transfers.

Sacking anybody now would almost certainly be counter-productive. We have the quality of personnel in all areas of the club to be in a better position than we are, and the team is showing distinct signs of improvement. We have the ability to score goals - look at the pre-season - and when improved displays also result in goals we will climb the table.

Subscribing to the hysterical tabloid-led reaction we currently see helps nobody. A blame culture is stupid. I am sure that everybody at the club is doing all they can to improve matters.

The least that we can do is to give them the benefit of the doubt and to support the team.

[spud]

Ramos did have a hand in this mess. He was the one that told Defoe he can leave.

Nobody 'told' Defoe he could leave. Defoe wouldn't sign a new contract while he was spending all his time on the bench behind Keane and Berbatov.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before Berbatov arrived there was almost universal agreement that Keane and Defoe were 'too similar' to play together (which, incidentally, I always thought was bollocks) and in view of the fact that Keane was obviously the preferred option of both Jol and Ramos, then he would always be on the bench.

So what should the club do? Keep him until the summer when he could walk for nothing? Hold onto him in case Keane happened to be tapped up by Liverpool and want away?

Defoe chose to leave. The club chose to get some money for him while it could. The only part that Ramos had in it was by choosing Keane ahead of Defoe.

I would've done the same.

Wouldn't you?

[navster]

The worrying thing for me is that we are now nearly 20% through the season with 2 points. If we need to achieve 38 points for safety that means 38 points out of a total 93 points. This equates to 1 win nearly every 2.5 games - is this possible considering we will be playing the top 4 nearly 15 (45 points) of these games not to mention the likes of Man city, bburn, villa etc..

I'm afraid I am not convinced.

After the Hull performance, I was one of the many supporters calling for Ramos head, but this will probably make things worse.

What we should now plan for is to ensure that most of our player's stay for one recovery season when we are in the Championship and this will be biggest task facing, Levy, Comolli and Ramos.

Not being negative but a realist.

[buz]

Firstly, I don't agree that Ramos should be sacked. As said by various before, who on earth can we get that is better? and at some point we need some continuity to become a top side.
However, secondly, we may have ballsed up in the transfer window, both with players leaving and coming in, but do you reckon that the likes of Phil Brown, Gary Megson etc would not want the talent we have? They seem to be doing ok with 'lesser' players.
So although I have pretty much contradicted myself we need to sort things out and sharpish too!

[parj]

i reckon ramos is been dealt a harsh hand with the imcompetent Comolli. Selling 2 top quality strikers and not replacing them with at least 1 was stupidity. not getting a DM and an out and out left winger which has been our issue for the last decade was more stupidity.

Commoli has to go. His buys have been awful....... who the fcuk santioned bentley? Kaboul? Boateng? It has to be him that gets shot.........come on you spurs (of the soccer and NBA variety)

[double0]

The worst thing to do is buckle under the pressure. If we sack the manager or techncial directory it shows a complete lack of forward thinking and patiance... (I dont even have the vocabulary to explain how it looks)

[Sauniere]

No

[gusrowe]

Why sack Ramos, why sack Comolli and why oh why get rid of Levy. Ramos is getting there although I understand the frustrations with the results which I share, Comolli is only buying what Ramos wants and Levy is the best Chairman the Club has had in years (Remember Scholar). Defoe, Berbatov and Keene all wanted to leave for money. If someone offers you more money and a better job will you say no I have to show loyalty. The team will settle down and the results will come. We are in Europe and still in the Carling Cup. many teams are not

[westlondonyid]

The worrying thing for me is that we are now nearly 20% through the season with 2 points. If we need to achieve 38 points for safety that means 38 points out of a total 93 points. This equates to 1 win nearly every 2.5 games - is this possible considering we will be playing the top 4 nearly 15 (45 points) of these games not to mention the likes of Man city, bburn, villa etc..

I'm afraid I am not convinced.

After the Hull performance, I was one of the many supporters calling for Ramos head, but this will probably make things worse.

What we should now plan for is to ensure that most of our player's stay for one recovery season when we are in the Championship and this will be biggest task facing, Levy, Comolli and Ramos.

Not being negative but a realist.


Very true my friend. I am not being negative either but so far I honestly cant see us getting more than 40 points. We are awful at the moment and cant score to save our lives. Not sure sacking Ramos will help the situation but to be honest could it be any worse bar being out of the cups

[JoeT]

I've always felt that sacking Ramos would be a major mistake and that the guy needs more time. I'm glad to see that - after the anger over Sunday's result has died down - other's feel this way too.
I watched Sunday's game...twice on T.V. in fact, and just ONE lucky bounce...either Woodgate's deflected shot, or Bent's chip going in would have made all the difference. Also, many of you expressed apparent 'bewilderment' at Ramos's substitutions.....It was obvious to me that Bentley was meant to overlap from right back, (and he did, and put in more decent crosses than Lennon did in the entire game). So I don't wee how he is 'losing the plot' or whatever.....in fact I think all of us will admit that we are slowly improving.
No doubt, with our woeful strikeforce we are going to have to somehow grind out results (Modric, are you listening?) until the January transfer window. At least we will have some funds to strengthen up front then.
It isn't going to be pretty from here until January, but staying with a stable organization hopefully should make it easier to ride out.

[BillyWhizz]

I think the DOF position should be scrapped, and if that means DC out then so be it.

Why does Levy think it's an important role for the club, because some foreign ones do it? So what, we're an English club. The teams that finish high up in the Prem seem to be doing alright without one.

[davidmatzdorf]

Pavlyuchenko was bought two days before the end of the transfer window, which to me looks like a panic buy.

It may look to you that way, but it's not correct. Comolli was tracking Pavlyuchenko for months, throughout the transfer window. There were numerous comments from Russia to that effect, as well as a few leaks from Tottenham.

He was signed almost at the last minute (a) because it took that long to agree things with the elusive Russians or (b) because there were other targets being pursued at the same time or (c) both.

[davidmatzdorf]

I think the DOF position should be scrapped, and if that means DC out then so be it.

Why does Levy think it's an important role for the club, because some foreign ones do it?...

No, the reason Levy thinks (or perhaps thought) it's an important role was because, until Arnesen arrived, every time a manager got sacked, the new manager wanted to replace half the squad and it was costing too much. Players were being brought in at higher fees than they were being sold.

So Levy decided (he said so in more than one interview) that a D of F being in charge of transfers and a Head Coach being in charge of the squad would give continuity. Any coach that arrived would be told that signing players was not his job and that he should get on with coaching.

That worked well, even through Santini's abrupt departure and Arnesen's tapping-up saga. But it broke down when Levy ran out of patience (for financial reasons, mainly) and demanded CL qualification immediately, leading to Comolli's proposal to replace Jol with Ramos.

Ramos arrived in mid-season and rapidly decided that a lot of the players were not his type of footballer. Because Comolli has hung his entire reputation at Spurs on the decision to replace Jol with Ramos, Ramos was in a position of power and Comolli duly went out to spend huge amounts of money renovating the defence last January and the midfield last Summer.

Comolli and Levy negotiated equally huge amounts of money from the sale of two strikers to pay for this. But so far it hasn't worked at all on the pitch. And now the "continuity" argument for a D of F is out the window, because the coach has demanded that half the squad be replaced anyway - and he has got his way.

So is there a point in having a D of F? Personally, I don't think the roles matter very much. I agree with Martin Jol: what's important is that the D of F chooses the coach and that they can work constructively together, as Arnesen worked with Jol. People tend to diss Frank Arnesen since he left, but despite the fact that many of his cheap, young players got sold, the fact is that the players he bought formed the nucleus of the squad that finished 5th twice.

[SpurSince57]

The worst thing that Tottenham could do now is sack Ramos. What would it acheive? Getting another manager in who would no doubt want to change the squad to his liking and would therefore have to wait until January to do that, and that probably would'nt give "another manager" enough time.

Yes many people may view the sacking of Jol a mistake but that is in the past and we cant look back. The biggest mistake we made is when we sold Keane to Liverpool. We all knew that Berbatov was going to leave, but i dont think anyone knew or was prepared for Keane leaving.

Yes it was good business for the club, selling a player who we bought for six million, got six years out of him and sold for £18m at the age of 28. So in a combined a decision to sell two players who scored fifty or so goals between them for the price of fifty million seems like good business. But the biggest mistake came when we simply did'nt replace them. Pavlychenko was bought two days before the end of the transfer window, which to me looks like a panic buy. Not the one of Ramos's choice, as we all know that Pavlychenko and Bent cant play together. Would a man of Ramos's knowledge and experience really want to pair these two together? Keane's transfer to Liverpool was purely a business decison and Levy is at fault for not thinking of the implications his business mind will have on the club, and Comolli is at fault for not getting decent enough placements in.

I for one am backing Ramos all the way, as I believe he is having to make the best of a shit situation which he did'nt have much control over. I pray that he is still here in January, and has more control over our transfers.

COYS

Sorry, but it was clear from mid-July that Pavlyuchenko and Arshavin were our number one targets to replace Berbatov and Keane, and were very much Ramos' preference. The reason we signed Pav so late is that Spartak were reluctant to let him go, and he himself was very iffy about leaving Russia and joining us. Given the timing of his appearance in London, it seems very possible Spartak wanted to hang on to him until after the second leg of their CL qualifier against Kiev.

No-one knows the full story behind the failure to sign Arshavin, so to say, 'Oh, Levy should just have shelled out an extra couple of million' is nonsense.

Do you know what was happening behind the scenes with Keane? No, you don't.

Do you and others seriously believe that Comolli and Levy decided off their own bat to dismantle the squad and buy in what amounts to a whole new one? They went out and signed players Ramos wanted. If he is having problems forming them into a team, they are of his own making.

[BillyWhizz]

No, the reason Levy thinks (or perhaps thought) it's an important role was because, until Arnesen arrived, every time a manager got sacked, the new manager wanted to replace half the squad and it was costing too much. Players were being brought in at higher fees than they were being sold.

So Levy decided (he said so in more than one interview) that a D of F being in charge of transfers and a Head Coach being in charge of the squad would give continuity. Any coach that arrived would be told that signing players was not his job and that he should get on with coaching.

That worked well, even through Santini's abrupt departure and Arnesen's tapping-up saga. But it broke down when Levy ran out of patience (for financial reasons, mainly) and demanded CL qualification immediately, leading to Comolli's proposal to replace Jol with Ramos.

Ramos arrived in mid-season and rapidly decided that a lot of the players were not his type of footballer. Because Comolli has hung his entire reputation at Spurs on the decision to replace Jol with Ramos, Ramos was in a position of power and Comolli duly went out to spend huge amounts of money renovating the defence last January and the midfield last Summer.

Comolli and Levy negotiated equally huge amounts of money from the sale of two strikers to pay for this. But so far it hasn't worked at all on the pitch. And now the "continuity" argument for a D of F is out the window, because the coach has demanded that half the squad be replaced anyway - and he has got his way.

So is there a point in having a D of F? Personally, I don't think the roles matter very much. I agree with Martin Jol: what's important is that the D of F chooses the coach and that they can work constructively together, as Arnesen worked with Jol. People tend to diss Frank Arnesen since he left, but despite the fact that many of his cheap, young players got sold, the fact is that the players he bought formed the nucleus of the squad that finished 5th twice.


But in those interviews Levy called it a continental approach that's where he got the idea from. What you say is all true but a D of F wasn't the only option, the teams around us (were around us) don't use one they've just employed a higher quality manager with a proven track record of transfers. And if he hadn't put the D of F position in place theres a good chance we'd have got one in O'Neil.

Looking back it's just hindsight though and I know it's easy to gripe after it's gone wrong but I've never been in favour of it and until now haven't felt depressed enough to moan about it.

[macspurs]

NO NO NO NO NO NO ....

We are in a bad position now, but as many have said - getting rid of Ramos would be utter madness. What the f would we do ? Get Pleat in to steady the ship ?
I still believe that it will happen for Ramos and the team. We have to be 100% behind the team though. Anything else is REALLY counter productive. There are enough b'stards out there ready to tear chunks out of our club without us lending a hand.

Ramos is still building a team. The whole berby/keane thing was very much out of his hands - both were tapped up basically - there was nothing he could do. And as for the last minute signings, the whole football world knew our situation, and played it to get the most money out of us for any signings we would make.

We do need some leadership on the pitch - which at this stage of the season means that one of our current players is going to have to stand up and be the man. Also, Ramos needs to work more on his English lessons - the sooner the better.

Ramos worked wonders at Seville. I believe he can do the same at Spurs. Whatever anyone says about Levy, he has run our club well. Berbs and Keane wanted to leave - simple as that. All he did was negotiate the best price we could possibly get.

Things need to improve - and soon, no doubt. We don't want to be too far adrift of safety, but to change now would be utter disaster.

[hotteamtn]

ramos = santini

[johnny two saints]

Sacking Ramos will just add to the turmoil and I saw signs of improvement in the Hull game. Yes he's been fiddling about but ironically the injury to Pav could force him to play 4-4-2 and keep the back 4 from Sunday which is a step in the right direction for me anyway.

Sacking Comolli now will just be to pander to fans' desire for retribution and won't change anything on the pitch or with the team. His "work" is now done until January when you'd hope even Levy has got the message by now! CB/DM/LW/CF: we all know the places that need attention.

Levy going may be the most likely if the willingness to sell is there and the proposed buyers flutter enough readies. However, like him or loathe him if he sold Spurs the new owners could change manager and then he would want to change it all round again and have his own views on January targets = almost certain relegation!

All in all, I see nothing happening this side of Christmas IF as I expect and hope things improve starting with 3 points at Stoke, 3 from Bolton and a decent showing against the goons.

[ravo]

Nice read, well done.

Only thing I would comment on is the fact that Commoli has to be severely reprimanded for his balls-up in the transfer window, as he has nothing to do with the players, so should have no affect on morale etc.

COYS

[doubledecker]

Roy Keane please