A test of our 3rd place credentials

[jolsnogross]

COLUMNS

Without getting over-confident, that's how our next game and our December league schedule might play out. Defeats for Bolton, Villa, Arse, Everton and a draw between Pool and Pompey in mid-week means a spread of 6 points between 3rd and 13th. Whoever puts a string of wins together will be able to grab 3rd and it doesn't have to be too long a run of results to cause a breakaway. Opportunities for ourselves, and the likes of Villa (after the january buy-in) and Bolton to establish in the top 4 have returned and are hopefully here to stay.

With Arse next, and two other December away ties against City and the circus-upon-Tyne, it couldn't be more timely to get some points on the board away from home and get 10 to 12 points from all 4 home games (charlton, boro, Villa, Pool).

The top 4 glass ceiling is breaking, not because others have caught up, but because Arse and Pool aren't all they've been cracked up to be.This oft spoken of top 4 glass ceiling was never about everyone catching up, it was more likely to break by equilibrium - amazing league wins with just one or two defeats (or none) was never going to be sustainable season after season (even with abyssally deep pockets). The top team usually loses no more than 5 games, but I reckon the top 2 will approach that this year. The other pair of the supposed top 4 have already hit the 4 and 5 mark. The other part of the equilibrium is for the 'chasing pack' to shore up the number of draws and losses, especially against the big boys. We're primed to jump in here - our hoodoo against 'top 4' teams was just smashed and we are well able to do so again. With just the one defeat in 14 - and with Arse losing to Fulham, this weekend is a 6 pointer (as if there wasn't already enough resting on it).

It's all well and good progressing in the cups, but one off-day can screw all the progress made and consistently qualifying for Europe is not achieved in cup competitions but in the league. We've got a great chance of silverware because of our cup form thus far, and that's what Spurs are all about - glory days at Wembley and hopefully Glasgow this year. But the potential for this bunch of players, possibly the best we've had in my spurs supporting life, is to really progress and start making a tilt at Champions League and then Championship.

The loss at Reading makes this sound a bit premature, if not totally off the wall, but I hope that's how our lot are thinking, because if they aren't then what's the point.

[Bill_Oddie]

I may be the only one, but actually in light of last nights result, I think it eases the impact resting on the weekends result.

The Goons will be without Senderos, and Toure with Gallas only just back against Chelsea, who showed last night they can play physical football (ie the sort Arsenal find it so hard to match).

That means, even a draw means we can catch them within a week. Which is nice.

[GDG]

Nice first post. If, and it remains a big if, we beat the Arse at the weekend, we will be right in the thick of things and with our tails up going into Xmas, whereas they are in the midst of a shocking run which would stand at three consecutive league defeats. Things do appear to be improving for us and we need to capitalise on circumstances by grinding out some results over the heavy Xmas programme.

[royboy]

i have to say that despite my glee in seeing the arse lose, i would much prefer them to not have lost before playing us. they don't tend to lose too many in a row, but lets hope we can change that.

[Kurtzen]

Good post, admirable optimism.
The current log jam will continue until May. The 'one off day' will be as true in the league then.
Winning at citeh or Newcastle? Errr, unlikely.
V.happy that we are currently linked to a couple of midfield generals. JJ is not the answer, unfortunately. The Hudd? Too much to ask in his first full season, hoping and encouragement aside. Consistency will take a while. If we procure one of the 'rumours'.. I'll sing a song. Without change in the middle.....just chaff in the wind i'm afraid...(yep, 18 months i've been banging this drum...).

Was it just a coincidence that JJ's absence against Wigan was why we looked more fluid?

[sloth]

JJ is not the answer, unfortunately. Without change in the middle.....just chaff in the wind i'm afraid...(yep, 18 months i've been banging this drum...).

Was it just a coincidence that JJ's absence against Wigan was why we looked more fluid?

Well can you please stop f*cking banging it?? The last 18 months have seen us put together the best team in a generation. We finished a comfortable fifth last season and was almost fourth and all that on the back of only the tenth largest stadium in the country...

We've no God given right to be at the top... we're a mid-sized club packing a punch larger than our size... within that context we've put together a handy squad, full of young, talented players many who have yet to reach their potential.

JJ is a bright light who's biggest failure was in not performing during the first four or five games he played for us. Since then he's been one of our top performers but as with any young guy from Ledley to Keane, Dawson to Lennon, he makes an occasional mistake, but because of his poor start people are less willing to forgive...

Kurtzen, were you one of those saying England should have picked Murphy ahead of Jenas when Murphy was still at Charlton??

Lastly, you can put the teams victory against Wigan down to JJ's absence if you like, I prefer to look at the goals of J.D., Berbi, & Lennon, the good defence and strong midfield...

[Kurtzen]

Fluid isn't a result it's a process. Murphy is about as useful as chair with two legs, and 'has been' since 12 months before departing Pool.
My only theme is improvement. Being largely alone in the view that the middle of the park is, while energetic, the divide between us and our aspirations, is not a source for concern on my part. Pity it's not shared more widely.

[dontcallme]

Excellent post. After some very poor results in the league i was thinking maybe this year we'll excel in cup competitions and our quality will be enough to put us into the top 8 but an overload of games and players lacking a little experience may cost us in the league a bit.

But we've put together a decent run and who knows maybe we can crack into the top four, but personally i think top 6 in the league is what we'll achieve this year. Now lets hope we win one of those cup competitions

[masterblaster80]

Whenever there's talk of our "top 4 credentials" i always remind myself that my personal target for the season was to consolidate our spot from last season.

Therefore, I expect us to finish 5th with some good cup runs preferably the quarter finals.

but it ain't as simple as that, we could finish 6th or 7th and win the FA cup or UEFA cup and I'd still be happy

if we do any better, than that would be a bonus, and by the way things are going, I think we're on the right track

As for the top 4 ceiling, its true that liverpool and arsenal are losing it, but other teams have improved such as everton, portsmouth, aston villa and more noticeable, bolton.

We can't just say that with liverpool and arsenal floundering, we're the team to fill the void as if we have a god given right to it, we'll have to prove it with our performances and more importantly, our results.

[davidmatzdorf]

I'm aware that much of this is basically superstition, but, like royboy, I'm curiously disappointed that the Arse*** lost last night.

What are the chances of a team as talented as theirs losing 3 Premiership matches in a row? Not high.

What are the chances of a team with the Arse*** culture of winning (and with Henry up front) having a major reaction to two losses and taking it out on their next home opponents. Higher than I would like.

All we can do is to put out our best 11 and hope that our strikers can finish, that our defence is organised and that our midfield is inspired.

But I'm less confident of our getting a result, now that Arse*** are coming off a string of disappointing results.

As for "third place credentials", I generally prefer not to make longer-term assumptions about which clubs we should and should not beat. It leads to disappointment and is responsible for quite a bit of the gratuitous rage arounds here.

[newbie]

Masterblaster i totally agree, for those who slate Jenas will you move on, he is a very good player and apart from the first few games this season he has been very good. Lets cut him some slack. There are players who deserve critisim more then Jenas.

[Dannyparklane]

i have to say that despite my glee in seeing the arse lose, i would much prefer them to not have lost before playing us. they don't tend to lose too many in a row, but lets hope we can change that.

Exactly what I was thinking! Its always cracking to see the scum lose, but how often do they lose 3 in a week?!

[paxton_soul]

You're right Matzdorf. this is one seriously compressed league this year. Physical football is in the ascendency in this country and even the most limited teams are energetic, in-yer-face and organised. Plus some great managers are getting the best out of limited squads - the Allardyces, O'Neills and Jewells of this world have to be admired. As does BMJ!

The main poster is right to be bullish - all it takes is a good little run this year and who takes the bend best after christmas could slingshot right up the league. What I wouldn't give for a "4 on the bounce" Defoe-led goal explosion right now!!

[elDiablo]

I'm aware that much of this is basically superstition, but, like royboy, I'm curiously disappointed that the Arse*** lost last night.

What are the chances of a team as talented as theirs losing 3 Premiership matches in a row? Not high.

What are the chances of a team with the Arse*** culture of winning (and with Henry up front) having a major reaction to two losses and taking it out on their next home opponents. Higher than I would like.

All we can do is to put out our best 11 and hope that our strikers can finish, that our defence is organised and that our midfield is inspired.

But I'm less confident of our getting a result, now that Arse*** are coming off a string of disappointing results.

As for "third place credentials", I generally prefer not to make longer-term assumptions about which clubs we should and should not beat. It leads to disappointment and is responsible for quite a bit of the gratuitous rage arounds here.


I must admit, these were my first thoughts last night, but then i thought maybe this is an Arsenal team still in transition, or even better, decline. They seem to be struggling, and i think they miss bergkamp a great deal, especially henry. This game will be fought in the middle and if zokora can keep building up his form, as well as malbranque, and lennon has a stormer, who knows......my glass is definitely half full. We can match them for pace and power, i think they edge us on technique slightly, but usually these derbys are not about technique but hunger.....and after the end of last season, im sure our boys wont need reminding.

We had a draw against them last season with a back line of stalts, daws, gardner, lee. I believe our current back line is 10 times as good, and not only that, we have a forward who can conjure up some magic (berbanator).

I think it can go either way, and with graham "im a celebrity get me out of here" poll reffing, it could be one or lost by him!!!!!

Hopefully it will be a great game, and we break two ducks in the space of a month..........

Catch u after the game :grin:

[walworthyid]

What are the chances of a team as talented as theirs losing 3 Premiership matches in a row? Not high.



No, usually that would be true, however, they are losing for a reason as are liverpool, and ourselves. We are all losing because we are just not THAT much better than everybody else. Teams know that arsenal will not cross it, they will not really attack the flanks, they will try to pass it through the middle. Therefore the play is condensed into the centre of the last third and unless they score early it is very difficult for them to break teams down.

The chances of them losing to us were no more than they were before saturday or last night, they will be up for it no matter what, they will want to win because it is the derby. They will want to win because the gap is closing, they will want to win because they NEED cl football next season more than any other team and they will want to win because we will be level with them if they do not.

Personally I feel that if they do not score in the first 20-25 minutes they will not win.

[StuckinPoland]

I agree with the poster who said that. if we take our chances, we´ll be ok on Saturday.

We always get three good chances a game. If we put away 2, we won´t lose.

But it´ll be interesting to see who will play for each team. I can see Jol going for the win here and playing 4-3-1-2. The Arse will be struggling at the back and the game could become a goal-fest.

I imagine the Arse will play

Lehmann
Eboue, Toure, Djourou, Clichy
Hleb, Silva, Fabregas, Ljungberg
Henry, van Persie

They don´t have Pires anymore so his guaranteed goal won´t happen.

If they play that team. I´d play

Robinson
Chimbonda, Dawson, King, Assou-Ekotto
Lennon, Zokora, Huddlestone, Keane
Defoe, Berbatov

When we don´t have the ball, it´d be 5 in midfield that i´d form like this.

Zokora, Huddlestone
Lennon Keane Defoe

That would make Keane more influential as he´d be involved more and also give Defoe and Lennon a chance to use their pace. I don´t see a reason why Defoe can´t pull left and attack defenders like Henry does for the Goons. His best goal for THFC (in the 4-5 defeat against the Goons) was doing just that.

Maybe this formation is a little dangerous and it would be better to play Davids instead of Huddlestone but I feel that Huddlestone would be better at performing the role that Carrick played last year when we were desperately unlucky not to win BOTH games.

But I want us to go for the kill this time. The Arse are struggling in defence so let´s beat them NOW.

[sloth]

Fluid isn't a result it's a process. Murphy is about as useful as chair with two legs, and 'has been' since 12 months before departing Pool.
My only theme is improvement. Being largely alone in the view that the middle of the park is, while energetic, the divide between us and our aspirations, is not a source for concern on my part. Pity it's not shared more widely.

Good point, you're right about fluidity... and I agree that improvement should be the main theme.

We've played very well in patches this season, and on a couple of occasions during matches we've looked as if we were really about to fly before slumping back into normality. I think we've all seen the potential though and it's partly this reason we get so frustrated when we never quite reach it... like Jol says we need to really tonk a few teams to cement some belief...

All that said though, I don't get where your anti-Jenas sentiment comes from. I see him as one of our brightest hopes. Like the team, he has the potential to be world-class, with his biggest failing being lack of concentration or the ability to fade from games, but in keeping with your yard-stick, I think we've seen a steady improvement from JJ over the last 18 months. He's much more willing to impose himself on a game, he's dynamic, the incidences of lost concentration are now coming maybe once a game and not in crucial areas and he's chipping in with goals and assists. Maybe if he'd stagnated you'd have a point, but he continues to develop.

I think this is fairly clear and something few would argue with, which is why I wonder why you do? It seems to me that someone who's been banging the same drum for 18 months, might just want to stop for a moment and take stock of changed circumstance?

[Kurtzen]

I've a very strong sense we will win this w/end.
Mad perhaps. Though no madder, or infuriating, than the likely result the next time we are away. Call it a conditioned response?

[mawspurs]

The point about how often do a team like the Ar*e lose 3 on the spin did cross my mind too, but we have to remember they have just lost two away games and they are struggling at home.

Their defense is currently all over the place due to injuries, while ours is the best we have had for some time and is starting to look more settled.

Henry is just returning from injury while we have a lot of options in the striking positions and they won't know which option will hit them till match day.

Its in midfield where the battle could be won and it was interesting to note Wenger rested Fabregas against Fulham. The Choice of players in this area is critical but I'll trust Jol's judgment.

I have a good feeling about this game, we can definitely get something out of it and we haven't always been able to say that.

[spurs4europe]

I agree with the poster who said that. if we take our chances, we´ll be ok on Saturday.

We always get three good chances a game. If we put away 2, we won´t lose.

But it´ll be interesting to see who will play for each team. I can see Jol going for the win here and playing 4-3-1-2. The Arse will be struggling at the back and the game could become a goal-fest.

I imagine the Arse will play

Lehmann
Eboue, Toure, Djourou, Clichy
Hleb, Silva, Fabregas, Ljungberg
Henry, van Persie

They don´t have Pires anymore so his guaranteed goal won´t happen.

If they play that team. I´d play

Robinson
Chimbonda, Dawson, King, Assou-Ekotto
Lennon, Zokora, Huddlestone, Keane
Defoe, Berbatov

When we don´t have the ball, it´d be 5 in midfield that i´d form like this.

Zokora, Huddlestone
Lennon Keane Defoe

That would make Keane more influential as he´d be involved more and also give Defoe and Lennon a chance to use their pace. I don´t see a reason why Defoe can´t pull left and attack defenders like Henry does for the Goons. His best goal for THFC (in the 4-5 defeat against the Goons) was doing just that.

Maybe this formation is a little dangerous and it would be better to play Davids instead of Huddlestone but I feel that Huddlestone would be better at performing the role that Carrick played last year when we were desperately unlucky not to win BOTH games.

But I want us to go for the kill this time. The Arse are struggling in defence so let´s beat them NOW.

it's very difficult to say.
arsenal are - i'm not too sure mind - but quite quick at the back. however, with djourou and clichy, we may find a little immaturity and inexperience to exploit. with that in my mind, having defoe to make those runs in behind the defence and firing off his pot shots could be quite useful. add that to the fact that they are probably well short of confidence now (with a point to prove too, though) and that is quite an attractive option, especially at the start. as the game progresses though, and we don't score, then they will gain in confidence and i think that will render defoe less and less potent.

on the other hand, i cannot see us playing the 3-3 formation you were talking about in midfield, especially with defoe.
in fact, most teams who play l'arse try and pack it in the middle, and for this reason, maybe keane-berbatov would not be a bad idea. bear in mind though, that most teams who play them aren't able to match them like we are.
keane is incredibly versatile i feel and is a great team player who will play according to the instructions he is given. he is also a great leader who does actually drive us on and keeps us going forward. having him dropping deep, playing in a midfield 5 and out on the left would be a useful thing to do. however, i would not play all 3 forwards, even in midfield as it won't and we'll get over-run. its got to be malbranque again on the left as he does actually put himself about too.

all in all, i think the keane-berbs front two pairing is a safer bet. it's a large pitch they've got there, and they'll destroy us if we ourselves too open. having said that though, we can almost match them, but they have so much pace that eventually something will fall for them.
if thats not working, i say we then bring on defoe to try and exploit more space in and around their defence. again i'm assuming we would be doing that if they were winning so having defoe taking advantage of a defense with low confidence at the start would not be possible as they would be winning and playing with confidence. i guess its just a risk you have to take. :wink:

[JuanRebelde]

As I have been mentioning in many posts since last season and even one yesterday, I have seen nothing yet that doesn't make me think we will end up in a CL spot at the end of the season. Whether it is the Gooners or the Scousers that we knock out remains to be seen as does the position either 3rd or 4th realistically.

I would take issue slightly in that Spurs in particular and perhaps a few others have bridged the gap between the so-called big four and also they have declined slightly too in the case of the goons atleast.

The Scousers were largely a mediocre team winning the cup or two from time to time before Benitez but never threatening to get close to the title. They did extra-ordinarily well winning the CL but it masked the fact that they have not really progressed as far as they thought.

In our case we have clearly improved over the last 2-3 years and with the most exciting young squad in the league bar none we will go on doing so. We will also suffer the odd set back eg Reading but I would find it hard to except anyone who said that we have not moved forward under MJ and Levy.

I am sure that we will see us break the big four cartel this season and progress there after.

[Kurtzen]

Good point, you're right about fluidity... and I agree that improvement should be the main theme.

We've played very well in patches this season, and on a couple of occasions during matches we've looked as if we were really about to fly before slumping back into normality. I think we've all seen the potential though and it's partly this reason we get so frustrated when we never quite reach it... like Jol says we need to really tonk a few teams to cement some belief...

All that said though, I don't get where your anti-Jenas sentiment comes from. I see him as one of our brightest hopes. Like the team, he has the potential to be world-class, with his biggest failing being lack of concentration or the ability to fade from games, but in keeping with your yard-stick, I think we've seen a steady improvement from JJ over the last 18 months. He's much more willing to impose himself on a game, he's dynamic, the incidences of lost concentration are now coming maybe once a game and not in crucial areas and he's chipping in with goals and assists. Maybe if he'd stagnated you'd have a point, but he continues to develop.

I think this is fairly clear and something few would argue with, which is why I wonder why you do? It seems to me that someone who's been banging the same drum for 18 months, might just want to stop for a moment and take stock of changed circumstance?


Please, I don't have an issue with JJ as JJ. He's a quality workhorse. He will not be a playmaker. I've defended JJ in the face of a lot of grief, particularily last year. We needed teeth with legs. Zokora's arrival changed this. Granted he will develop.
The Hudd will on present indications develop into an England bookend. But, to place the world on his shoulders at present would i believe be detrimental.
Our conversion/chance ratio to possession is.....not good. To place the emphasis on the left side is contradicted by the number of left sided crosses we have/do make(printed somewhere last month?here?).
Murphy's arrival was greeted with 'someone to provide the killer pass'.....someone was never going to be him. With Aaron as an automatic selection, we patently can't afford another defensive passenger. Besides, his legs were going...now?(I was soo p*ssd off when he signed).
So what's the recipe? A play maker with teeth. Easy, not. My 'fantasy' team last year would have bought and played Kuyt in the middle( a theme i really did bang on about here. Yes, he can play anywhere in the front 2/3rds). As for today? The rumours have one recurring theme, someone other than me is pursuing this perceived gap, not just a lame duck journo with space to fill. Don't be surprised, as someone above noted, that Davids and Murphy depart. Though without inviting more consternation(polite), to hold Davids in a coaching role would clearly be advantagous. Watching 'The Hudd' on the w/end i was convinced he'd spent some profitable time in his company?
Sorry too long winded. My christmas present? Godzilla in boots please. The Hudd can collect that title in a year or two.:shrug:

[Bingy]

I am still getting that 'Spurs' feeling in the pit of my stomach....NOT a GOOD feeling at the best of times BUT we do seem to be uniquely able to mess things up when it is harder to fail! Am I right or am I right? A tricky corner, or 2, have been turned this season but are we capable of consistent 'corner turning' or will we fade as we are prone to do? It has to become consistency or bust and I am not yet convinced that we 'have what it takes' just yet! The progress is undeniable but what will that count for IF we remain where we are and where we have been for the last few months? Saturday will put us on a high OR plunge us back into the ABYSS....one way or the other! I know which one I prefer and believe we can achieve....but that 'feeling' is still here....for another 2 days atleast :bang: ! COYS!

[MidnightCaller]

I really believe we can get fifth place again, like last season, but it would be a bonus, if we get fourth. and for saturdays match, a draw we be a good match away. but if lennon, berbatov and Huddlestone are on form, we could get a win. Regarding the fourth place I do believe we need a good left back to get that position, as I have notice we have been caught out on the left a few times,(maybe Matt Taylor Portsmouth who could play on the left wing as well if needed) But the greatest find we have seen is young Huddlestone, is passing is out of this world, which have opened up defences I have not seen since Hoddle, and he also is a good holding midfield, who can tackle when needed,(did notice we are unbeaten when he as started a match) Let us get one or two new faces in Jan, one being Matthew Taylor who is a spurs supporter and loves a tackle and great at it, if we remember when we played Portsmouth.

[gregga]

A good post mate. I do feel that the opportunity is there to climb the table and to stake our claim for a european place, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly optimistic about our chances of breaking into the top 4.

Saturday is a massive game and personally I'm predicting a draw, which will be a good result for us. More important though is winning our next two home games. We haven't put back to back wins together so far this season and thats why we've found it impossible to break in to the top half - wins against Charlton and Boro will no doubt set us on our way.

I definitely agree that there is no longer a 'big four' in the premiership - but I'm not so sure that this is a good thing as far as our league prospects are concerned. Teams like Bolton and Portsmouth are bigger rivals than we had last season, where most teams found it difficult to stay consistent. I know our squad is undoubtedly better than most other teams, but we don't have a god given right to finish above them, and unless the players find the right mentality we will struggle to get in to europe again - something which would be disastrous for the progress of the club.

[sloth]

Hey Kurtzen, I've edited your post down and reckon it sounds like something Nostradamus, Yoda or Mystic Meg would be proud of... What do you reckon?


"He will not be a playmaker.

The Hudd will on present indications develop into an England bookend. But, to place the world on his shoulders at present would i believe be detrimental.

To place the emphasis on the left side is contradicted by the number of left sided crosses we have/do make.

So what's the recipe? A play maker with teeth. Easy, not.

As for today? The rumours have one recurring theme, someone other than me is pursuing this perceived gap, not just a lame duck journo with space to fill.

Don't be surprised, that Davids and Murphy depart. Though without inviting more consternation(polite), to hold Davids in a coaching role would clearly be advantagous.

My christmas present? Godzilla in boots. The Hudd can collect that title in a year or two." :-)

And btw JJ is many things but a work-horse he isn't

[sloth]

A tricky corner, or 2, have been turned this season but are we capable of consistent 'corner turning'

I think the point about turning corners is you don't have to keep turning them, in fact I think you'll find that if you turn too many corners you tend to end up right back where you started.

Let's just try and turn one corner and then have a big long straight bit...

[rooster1]

I like some others on here i shared the same thoughts about last night's Fulham result,but before i looked at the threads i did the current poll. I chose Defoe and berbie,the i checked it and it was 64%,the highest so what we have here is a show pessimism and back to good old optimism.

Unlike last year we didn't have Berbanator the slick finisher
and Defoes luck will improve against the goons also we have a better defence than last year with a strengthened squad
and the young players will be warmed up better for this one.
They've had too good of late and going into this match on
looking at recent results i prefer our mood rather than theirs.

Trashburton grove will be a good stomping ground for us
and to deliver a 3rd in a row defeat for them will make it
even more sweeter . "No i haven't had a drink."

[ridouche]

Ha ha, I had a good night sleep. But I fear they unleash that monster against us, he scored a perfect one on the left again but wrongly disallowed. Chimponda got a produce the best so far to keep the maestro at bay. The big day has become the D day!

[green_nigel]

A top four finish isn't impossible but Arsenal will finish strongly - they always do - and let's not forget Liverpool won 10 (or was it more?) in a row last season. A similar run this year will see them straight back in contention. I think too many people are writing them off, saying they are forces in decline. Many were saying the same about ManU last year when they had a poor run of form.

Our win against Chelsea showed we can now mix it with the best but it's a long season.

[Bilko]

I`m also one of those who would have preferred an Arse-Fulham draw last night;but I think that they are always up for this game anyway and they can`t really be more determined to get a result.
I can see a draw coming.

[Kurtzen]

Sloth "And btw JJ is many things but a work-horse he isn't"

ok, my last, less tactful offering....headless chook, or, unguided missile. Your choice.

ps: for some reason i tend to loose people and ideas amidst my word salad. My loose associations are more often 'fluid' perhaps? I'll keep you in mind as a future editor/translator. Though to claim to understand the insane doesn't bode well for any claims to sanity you might have had. COYS

[sloth]

Sloth "And btw JJ is many things but a work-horse he isn't"

ok, my last, less tactful offering....headless chook, or, unguided missile. Your choice.

How about frustrating thoroughbred...?