Tottenham need to think again over new stadium

[Geez]

By Rowan Moore, Evening Standard 3 Feb 10

Tottenham Hotspur are the 14th richest football club in the world, a £113 million-a-year business, whose most valuable players each cost the same as a Francis Bacon painting, or a middle-sized cultural centre, or a block or two of affordable housing, or a few schools.

Yet its ground stands in the most deprived ward in London.

Tottenham High Road is a thoroughfare that goes back to Roman times, somewhat battered now but still lined with ornate fragments of Victoriana and handsome Georgian houses from the days when this was a prosperous rural satellite of London.Modern football stadia, by contrast, are vast relentless machines for processing tens of thousands of people, objects at an utterly different scale from an ordinary high street.

So when Tottenham Hotspur propose a new 58,000-seat stadium, rising to 42 metres high, as well as 450 flats, a hotel and a supermarket to help pay for it, worlds collide.
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Power meets poverty, and the silvery disc of the arena descends like a UFO, whooshing pubs and shops and the odd listed building into oblivion. It is as pure a symbol of the relative might of club and borough as you could wish for.

Except Spurs are not having it all their own way. The Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE) has pronounced itself “disappointed” with the project and “does not support it”.

It finds it “incoherent” and “awkward”. English Heritage, while still finalising its position, says that the plan threatens “a serious and significant level of harm to the historic environment”.

Objections like these can prompt a public planning inquiry, or derail the
whole project, whose cost will be £400 million. And, as things stand, it's hard to disagree with CABE.

It's not that the stadium shouldn't be there. Spurs considered other options from Milton Keynes to Wembley to taking on the Olympic site and opted to stay where they are now, relocating just to the north of their current ground.

It wouldn't do Haringey any good if this local icon, major employer and earner of revenue went somewhere else. Spurs, like other self-respecting modern football clubs, also make much of their outreach to the local community.

The new development would remove the current stadium, no thing of beauty, and would brighten up its dingy surroundings.

It would greatly enhance the space outside a neighbouring school that currently resembles the death zone along the Berlin Wall.

A supermarket, hotel, conference centre, and housing — affordable and otherwise — are all good things for Tottenham.

The club have hired the famous American landscape architect Martha Schwartz to create a “vibrant” and “exceptional” public square and an ice rink is promised in winter.

The ground itself, designed by the stadium specialist KSS, aims to create a rare intimacy between fans and players, even as it increases the current capacity of 35,000 by two-thirds.

At one end, a vast bank of spectators, uninterrupted by corporate boxes, is proposed, with the intention of creating an array of passionate humanity unlike any other English football ground.

It is meant to be the opposite of the chilly cathedral, the Emirates Stadium, that Arsenal have built for themselves.

Externally, the proposed stadium is a silvery, swooping thing, none too subtle and a bit blingy.

There are awkward crunches where the right-angled geometry of its floors and columns meets the curving arch shapes the architects have applied to the exterior.

It is not, in other words, a sophisticated work of architecture, although it is sleeker than most British football grounds and has a certain oomph to it.

But the real issue is how all these elements add up. In the present plans the stadium looks as though it were designed to sit in an open plain, with little recognition of the bits of street and town around it.

At one end the supermarket is a standard blind box; at the other the hotel and housing, designed by Make Architecture, are noisy, jagged objects with juddering rhythms, rising up to 20 storeys above three-storey surroundings. Taken together, it makes for an inchoate whole.

What's needed is architecture that can walk and chew gum at the same time. The stadium should be splendid — and there's no point trying to disguise the fact that it's enormous — but it should also respond to the fact that it's shaping a public place in everyday use on the 340 days a year when there's not a match on.

The hotel and housing present an opportunity to create a transition between the scale of the existing streets and that of the stadium, but instead aim to be expressive icons in their own right.

It's not an easy task but it's possible, and achieving difficult things should be the reason why architects are paid their fees. More than that, it's dramatic encounters like this that make architecture interesting — think, for example, of the way medieval cathedrals rise from narrow streets. Done well, this slab of Tottenham could become an astonishing part of London.

I write this as a supporter of Tottenham Hotspur. Having been born in Hastings to a largely football-hating family, I can't claim to be a dyed-in-the-wool fan, but I was drawn to the club by its tradition of finding the most stylish players.

Now, going to matches with my daughter, we have a well-worn joke as the blue struts of the existing stadium come into view. “That's the most beautiful building in London,” we say. It isn't, of course.

The point is that, once inside, the look of a stadium becomes almost irrelevant compared with what's happening on the pitch.

Most football fans would watch their team in stadia built out of plastic drain sections and reused scrap metal, which is what, indeed, many of them look like.

But, given the chance to create a wholly new stadium development, why wouldn't you want it to be as classy and skilful as the best players?

Submitted by SC member MUMBLES

[Maske2g]

Another absolute twat.

Can we not get a petition going telling these bureaucratic ponces to have a walk down Tottenham high road on a non matchday evening?

Then see if there is any charachter down it that they want to retain.

[JimmyG2]

Fascinating article, informative, sensitive, balanced and clearly written after reading the SC threads on the subject.
The opening paragraphs frame his analysis very well and his comments about architects earning their fees is telling.
Surprisingly found in the Evening Standard.

[UncleBuck]

Maske2g - I'm sure they'd find a few "characters" that they want to detain....

They place is quite frankly a sh!t pit, if the surrounding area is developed then the club are giving something back to the local community and it'll create jobs.

I'm coming to the conclusion that all these self proclaimed "experts" are Goons.

[DiscoD1882]

This is talking art for arts sake. Yes there is a need to keep tradition but there is also a greater need for the area to be bought forward into the current century, Like east London is being transformed by the Olympics. should we have a penny-farthingdone where the velodrome will be or maybe we should do away with metal in the Olympic stadium and have a brick and wooden structure more in keeping with the surroundings. Im sure your average Joe on the street could care less about the sweeping designs or the "awkward crunches where the right-angled geometry of its floors and columns meets the curving arch shapes" They just want an area where they feel safe have a sense of belonging and aren't looked down on by most other London boroughs. This Stadium can bring this to the area.

[JonnySpurs]

Good article in as much that it's an interesting read.

Quite honestly though I just want the re-design agreed upon so it can all get started....not sure how patient I can be, I just wanna see the new stadium finished!!

[pistolP]

When is the decision on the planning application due?

[mil1lion]

I like what i've seen of the Stadium. A lot of thought and effort has gone into the project. I don't see any real issues with the design of the Stadium. Just let them get on with it. We wont be dissapointed.

[StokeSpur]

But its ok to stick a fkn big fair ground wheel in London and make that fit in to the surroundings ...

[spurs_viola]

The commissions and organisations like CABE and English Heritage would hardly ever accept an ambitious modern design project without any "expert objections" and "recommendations". They feel it is their job/responsibility.

How much real influence do their recommendations carry with the actual decision-makers, ie the Haringey Council and presumably, the GLA / Mayor of London?

Could this be part of the usual negotiations spiel from the authorities to squeeze a bit extra from the wealthy Football Club and the very rare opportunity for a council like Haringey?

Would be interesting to have DavidMatzdorf's input here - isn't that his area of insider knowledge?

[ravo]

Surprisingly well written article and a good read.

That said, I don't really agree. THFC have put a lot of money into improving the whole area for the locals, not just the fans on matchday. This is something that you wouldn't see at most clubs - they would just plonk the ground there and be done with it.

The club must be applauded for this. I am far from an architectual expert, but the fact that we have employed the best (it seems) for the job I am happy with. As far as I'm concerned the results speak for themself, the plans look great and it is in the best interest of the community to get this happening.

Even the most ardent arty-farty football-hater should be able to see that the club are trying to not just improve the stadium, but also the surrounding area by including the park, supermarket, shops etc.

I am getting bored with arguing with the article now - NEXT

[striebs]

Maske2g - I'm sure they'd find a few "characters" that they want to detain....

They place is quite frankly a sh!t pit, if the surrounding area is developed then the club are giving something back to the local community and it'll create jobs.

I'm coming to the conclusion that all these self proclaimed "experts" are Goons.

UncleBuck , Maske2g ,

Some of us feel at home in sh1t holes . You probably wouldn't want to come in my house unless your innoculations are up to date .

As for sanitising the High Road , it's like if the club won't go to Milton Keenes then Milton Keenes will come to the club .

There'll be a public enquiry about where to locate the plastic cows next .

[CliffJones]

Concrete cows, their made of concrete. I used to live quite close to MK, it is nowhere near as good as the new stadium.

[lyndonh]

Just wanted to say as a member of the "community" having lived in Tottenham for all of my 40 years I would like to just chip in with my opinion. I went to school on White hart lane and live a stones throw from our current ground and to hear the local area described as a "shit pit" as much as it offends me is quite accurate. Apart from the local shops which align the ground there is nothing special to write home about. In the article it was refered to as "poverty meets power", well as a Spurs fan and local, I cannot wait for the whole regeneration project to begin. For years the area has steadily declined and if not for our famous old club I could not see the council or any other body flexing their financial muscle to improve the area and provide jobs.
Without going into the politics of it all I believe Daniel Levy and all involved with the project has the community at the top of their agenda and will actually be doing the borough of Haringey a huge favour by investing this vast amount of money to try and bring ,affordable homes , jobs and an area that someone like me can walk down and feel positive about. The so called experts do not have to live there and will only offer an opinion but for me and the other thousands of Spurs fans it will be the day where we are able to look at our favourite club and know they have contributed more to future generations of not just football fans than any other councillor or so called art expert. Roll on the bulldozers.

[CliffJones]

Well said Lyndonh.

[ravo]

Well said Lyndonh.

+1

[onthetwo]

Just wanted to say as a member of the "community" having lived in Tottenham for all of my 40 years I would like to just chip in with my opinion. I went to school on White hart lane and live a stones throw from our current ground and to hear the local area described as a "shit pit" as much as it offends me is quite accurate. Apart from the local shops which align the ground there is nothing special to write home about. In the article it was refered to as "poverty meets power", well as a Spurs fan and local, I cannot wait for the whole regeneration project to begin. For years the area has steadily declined and if not for our famous old club I could not see the council or any other body flexing their financial muscle to improve the area and provide jobs.
Without going into the politics of it all I believe Daniel Levy and all involved with the project has the community at the top of their agenda and will actually be doing the borough of Haringey a huge favour by investing this vast amount of money to try and bring ,affordable homes , jobs and an area that someone like me can walk down and feel positive about. The so called experts do not have to live there and will only offer an opinion but for me and the other thousands of Spurs fans it will be the day where we are able to look at our favourite club and know they have contributed more to future generations of not just football fans than any other councillor or so called art expert. Roll on the bulldozers.

Totally agree - my guess would be that 50%+ of local GDP is driven by the club, and probably an even higher portion of private sector GDP. "A chance to upgrade a shit-hole" - wouldn't that have been a great title for Levy's pitch to the local council!

[bigspurs]

The whole area used to be a nice place to live, but that's going back to the 50's probably! According to Police stats from Operation Trident, Tottenham has had the most black on black crime in the Capital, so there's obviously a lot of work to be done there! Please note that I am not suggesting that black people are responsible for the degeneration of the area though.

If we look at how vastly improved areas in South London are such as Clapham, Balham and parts of Battersea and Wandsworth, then there is hope for Tottenham too I think. The council needs to attract more professional people (or a few thousand Aussies!) into the area, in order to raise it's profile, just like in South London.

[michaelden]

I can understand CABE's objection but in truth what kind of stadium would need to be built to fit in with a Victorian, Georgian and 1950's architecture. A fooking right mess of a building! Better to have this spectacular monument to Sport & Culture and raise the profile of the area than try to "fit in" and merge with the existing environment.

[Luka Lennon]

article is aload of bollox

we have alot of these stuck up their own arse fans who think they're so fucking smart

[tomo]

jokers. Tottenham is a mess and this would be the best thing that happened to the place in years. If that wanker loved the area so much I'd like to see him relocate there..........hmm thought not.

[Shirtfront]

I'm sorry, but apart from the quite literate airs and graces, doesn't this article boil down to: "I don't like the look of the new stadium much." There is barely anything beyond the aesthetic, and certainly no constructive suggestions for alternatives.

Thanks for your opinion. But who cares?

[davidmatzdorf]

With some regret, especially given the snide and rather disrespectful tone of the article, I have to say that, after I strip away all of the wise-arse verbiage, I agree with every bit of actual architectural criticism he has written. The overall scheme should be better. I've thought so from the moment I saw the plans.

[fieryjack]

With some regret, especially given the snide and rather disrespectful tone of the article, I have to say that, after I strip away all of the wise-arse verbiage, I agree with every bit of actual architectural criticism he has written. The overall scheme should be better. I've thought so from the moment I saw the plans.

Away you go then fella. How would you improve it?

[parj]

i wonder if recreating the Colesseum would blend into the environment? You could put the changing rooms under the pitch and have lions come out at half time.

Im sorry, but if TOttenham Court Road was so important to British History then lots would have been done to preserve it. Instead, nothing has been done and now a chance to get things done is being potentially derailed because it doesnt blend in with the surrounding environment and maximise improving the local quality of life.

Lets just leave things as is then

[StanSpur]

Working in an organisation that deals a lot with english heritage i know how protracted these issues can be. As one poster pointed out the walk from seven sisters tube to WHL is not exactly a marvel of modern or historical sites! There are a few nice buildings on route but there are numberous run down shops, sprawling eateries, Lidl, grotty market stalls and various other views of a tired part of london. With all the property that must have been close to condeming that Spurs have bought and the plans to not only introduce a modern statium but also housing, shopping and community spaces i think the government should take this opportunity to push some of their development budget (which they still have) towards the area and really make a difference, make it a place people want to live in. We can't keep things looking old for the sake of "keeping our history" after all the victorians, edwardians, romans all knocked down what was there before to build their buildings and now we have to keep moving forward and replace old with new where it makes an improvement.

[Dundalk_Spur]

They should just say if the plans are not passed they will leave the properties as they are and let all the drug users, pushers and the rest of the undesirables use them.

What has english heritage done for the area in the past 30 years??

[bigspurs]

They should just say if the plans are not passed they will leave the properties as they are and let all the drug users, pushers and the rest of the undesirables use them.

What has english heritage done for the area in the past 30 years??

Its the government's fault for allowing inner city areas to turn into ghettos. FACT. Its the result of years of neglect and underfunding.

[tomo]

What has english heritage done for the area in the past 30 years??

joke isn't it. can't see any evidence of then doing anything, apart from perhaps allowing the 2000th kebab house to be built along the high road.

[guiltyparty]

Good article. All he's basically saying is the ground, hotel and apartment buildings have to look like the same development, rather than three random constructs. Which they do.

[Boony]

With some regret, especially given the snide and rather disrespectful tone of the article, I have to say that, after I strip away all of the wise-arse verbiage, I agree with every bit of actual architectural criticism he has written. The overall scheme should be better. I've thought so from the moment I saw the plans.

:roll:

[avonspurs]

Good article. All he's basically saying is the ground, hotel and apartment buildings have to look like the same development, rather than three random constructs. Which they do.

But WHY do they have to look like the same development? Why cant they look like three random constructs? I lived on Lansdowne Road for the first 20 years of my life, to about 1994, and the place went down the pits for the last 10-15 years of that. I visit regularly and, each time I go back, I wonder how much worse can it get. The people are fantastic and they need money spent on it to get the area feeling/looking/being better. They deserve it. The stadium could be the focus of that. As for DavidMatzdorf comments, like other replies, could you outline what you think could be done better? I'm always interested in reading your posts so would love to hear your views on it..... personally, I think the development looks fantastic. Of course, it wont please all the people, but it has my support which clearly is the most important thing going.. hehe :rofl:

[striebs]

Seriously guys , there is a grave danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater .

I'm not talking about having more fried chicken outlets than Kentucky .


Many of the Turkish Kebab houses along the high road are really good family run independent busineses . One terrific charcoal grill one between White Hart Lane station and the ground .

And if you haven't tasted the oxtail stew in the Brown Falcon opposite WHL station you are really missing out .

As the new area is "revitalised" with chain wine bars , Mc Huts other superficial tat the real vibrancy is in danger of going the same way as the Biegel Bakery .

[pistolP]

I love everything about the new stadium, when can they start the building work, i hope anytime soon.

[Paxtonite]

Im sorry, but if TOttenham Court Road was so important to British History then lots would have been done to preserve it.

Someone hand the guy an A-Z of north London!

Seems to me that the planners want an integrated look of all developments when they should just be looking at what they have now and what they will have when it is done. The local council have not the time or the finances to do anything in Tottenham or any other inner city area, but we need to ensure these beauracrats remain in employment and their pensions in tact despite what shit is falling all around them.

I grew up in Edmonton, and passing through into Upper Edmonton and Tottenham used to be safe, respectable and household names lined the high street. Now both Edmonton and Tottenham have degenerated into dives and no one in authority gives a shit. Talk about cutting noses to spite faces.

I live in the midlands now, and when the new Bull Ring shopping centre was being built even Prince Charles moaned at the very modern looking and out of charcter to its surroundings, Selfridges that was being built. Now if you look for pictures of Birmingham that is the image you will see as it has quickly become a landmark and a picture of the city's move into the 21st century.

And finally, what are the bloody architects being paid for? Shouldn't they have come up with a workable solution from the outset?

Guess this one will run and run.

[Riandor]

I'm with DM... no not because it's DM!! lol...

The stadium istelf looked good (a little silvery perhaps, but mainly good) and I realise that we are all desperate for the new stadium to be built.

But pushing the plans just because it's an improvement of what is there now is not the right thing to do. Let's face it, it wouldn't take much to improve the area.

I for one am happy that the plans are being scrutinised and hopefully all concerned will come up with a design solution that suits the majority and will provide a legacy for years to come.

If that takes a little longer than hoped, then so be it. As long as it gets done!!

And we're not exactly the only club not to get our way with building new stadiums.

R.

[PerthDave]

Same feeling as Riandor.
I feel not being local (supporter cause my dad was, first team I saw etc) that my opinion on the community issues is of no relevance compared to those who live in Tottenham. I would take their opinion over mine. But I do think if it was my neighbourhood I would want it to be the best it can be and set the tone for the future development.
Having said that it would be a total disaster, according to most locals if Spurs moved location, so their has to be a balance. Whatever happens the club look to be trying to do the right thing for the area as a whole with the long term in mind! So lets hope it's resolved ASAP

[JoeT]

Funny that you should mention Prince Charles and the Bull Ring Centre 'Paxonite'...because I believe you have realized that the project of THFC is the tip of an iceberg in Britain. What sort of architecture best suits developing towns and cities?
For what it's worth I'm with Charlie on this one, and still think that Birmingham's development looks hideous. I won't give my feelings on the Tottenham 'District 9' spaceship because they are only feelings and not really based on any hard logic.

[fatspur]

The scheme is undeniably 3 distinct developments. Presumably the only aesthetic that really concerns THFC is that of the stadium itself. The other elements are there prodominantly to help fund the stadium, so the club is looking to maximise development at least possible cost, inevitably leading to basic structures. The club can address the criticism if it has to, but this will lead to more cost, delays and reduced revenue. Clearly this will have impact on the viability of the whole, so the club will presumably either defend the original application or propose a compromise with which it can live.

[spurs_viola]

I do not believe these commissions really care that much about the "historic environment" in Tottenham High Road area. They are much more interested in whatever revenue and publicity then can generate from being involved with this project, however indirectly.

Does the CABE charge the club for their time and "expert analysis" when dealing with this application? I presume so. These commissions (like much of Planning Permission committees) profit from the more attempts the applicant makes and every time you submit your amended project you have to pay further fees to these commissions.

Seems petty, but you'd be surprised how petty the bureaucratic machine can sometimes be. And the fees that are small to THFC are quite a welcome addition to the commissions' budgets.

[Bonjour]

Oh, get stuffed.

[sidtheyidbuck]

i cant see why they have to have the three projects integrated;the stadium design is apparently fine;if it was built on its own and then two years later the houses ;then a year later ;the supermarket and so on...nothing would be said...i first came to w.h.l .as a 7 year old via manor house as the seven sisters tube did not exist..i thought even then being so young"what a dump of an area" i have since taken my children and then grandchildren..you know the area has gone down hill even more since 1951..i say if they dont want a 400 million pound investment in one of londons shittiest areas so be it...lets move to some area that would wecome this investment we may even have an area with good transport links or do not put parking near the ground impossible

[alchemission]

With some regret, especially given the snide and rather disrespectful tone of the article, I have to say that, after I strip away all of the wise-arse verbiage, I agree with every bit of actual architectural criticism he has written. The overall scheme should be better. I've thought so from the moment I saw the plans.

"twat", "wanker".....

...seems as though the contrast in "poverty vs. power" is evident not just in the Stadium plans, but also on the comments following this thoughtful article. It may sound to you like artsy-fartsy crap, but everything is relative: the writer isn't trying to condescend you all.

I agree with everything said. In the long run this current design will become distasteful. Reread the article and understand the longer, bigger picture....

...and ditch your 'short-term fix' attitudes. Seriously, you guys have been ruining the club for too long.

[battspur]

UncleBuck , Maske2g ,

Some of us feel at home in sh1t holes . You probably wouldn't want to come in my house unless your innoculations are up to date .

As for sanitising the High Road , it's like if the club won't go to Milton Keenes then Milton Keenes will come to the club .

There'll be a public enquiry about where to locate the plastic cows next .

I would expect that the stadium is not buit for those people that 'feel at home in sh1t holes' or who have problem with sanitry !!
The locals environment will benefit from any development.
There is nothing in the plans that is worse than whats there !
Plastic Cow ? - Prize Cock MORE LIKE

[Cicada]

what the fuck is there about the high road the english heritage could possibly want to keep?

fucking tards

[rich75]

what the fuck is there about the high road the english heritage could possibly want to keep?

fucking tards

If you can be arsed, download the pdf from here ( Tottenham High Road historic corridor: conservation plans and written statements (http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/index/index/housing_and_planning/planning-mainpage/conservation/conservation_areas/conservationareacharacterappraisals/tottenhamhighroadhistoriccorridor.htm) ) and have a read .


(http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rudi.net/files/paper/illustrations/tottladbrokeslugg_0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rudi.net/node/16383&usg=__kgzz9cGkN6DUGXwJZpJetdyTa-I=&h=525&w=700&sz=108&hl=en&start=16&sig2=Eq_YsGlImP2c22qXr0lTvg&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=F_33DhqabuuVgM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtottenham%2Bhigh%2Broad%2Bimage%26hl% 3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1&ei=piZrS6S2I8_M-Qav1sHwAw)

[mill]

Well said Lyndonh.

+1 i don't live in London but go through Tottenham at least once a week, the area is in serious need of regeneration, the new ground could really help with this

[striebs]

I would expect that the stadium is not buit for those people that 'feel at home in sh1t holes' or who have problem with sanitry !!
The locals environment will benefit from any development.
There is nothing in the plans that is worse than whats there !
Plastic Cow ? - Prize Cock MORE LIKE

Friend of the family went to the Emirates and it sounded totally sissy .

Imagine the shame of getting black balled from the Naming Rights stadium :oops:

[doom]

I'm surprised that Spurs have put forward such a disjointed plan - the stadium itself is an excellent design but there lies the problem.. that it and the other new builds should have some kind of relationship to each other. For example the renderings showing the stadium and hotel together are highly discordant. The curved shape and metallic finish of the stadium is so harsh against the angular form of the hotel - you would have thought they would use just one architect working on these. My solution to the problem would be to design curved flowing roofs (in the style of Corbusier's Chapel of Nôtre Dame du Haut for example) which I think would link well to the stadium and draw attention to the whole project not the separate parts of it.

[jonnyrotten]

The problem with a lot of physical regeneration projects in the UK is that they do not benefit the existing communty, but in fact alienate residents, create a divide and increase inquality. The type of housing and employment HAS to be of benefit to people who live in Tottenham. The new stadium is going to look fantastic, but the other aspects of the scheme are lazy, standard models used across the country. The club can do better than that.

[lazarus]

The whole area used to be a nice place to live, but that's going back to the 50's probably! According to Police stats from Operation Trident, Tottenham has had the most black on black crime in the Capital, so there's obviously a lot of work to be done there! Please note that I am not suggesting that black people are responsible for the degeneration of the area though.

If we look at how vastly improved areas in South London are such as Clapham, Balham and parts of Battersea and Wandsworth, then there is hope for Tottenham too I think. The council needs to attract more professional people (or a few thousand Aussies!) into the area, in order to raise it's profile, just like in South London.

That is exactly what you are suggesting. maybe not the intention; but the result is the same.

As a black person who's lived and schooled in all those areas you've mentioned above, and who currently lives in Waltham Forest; I can say it's an issue about poverty and jobs; not the amount of 'black on black' crime (whatever that means).

Mentioning it next to 'degeneration' merely associates the terms, and means they're associated in your mind.

Anyway; the reason why all those Aussies moved into South London, is that the previous wave of immigrant populations (including black people) that had bought their homes, either sold up and moved out or rented their properties to Aussies, Portuguese, South Americans, yada yada yada.

I myself have rented out my flat in Tottenham to a nice Brazilian guy with a fit missus.

I also don't think Tottenham is that bad, I've lived and worked in a lot of areas I could characterise as shit; parts of Middlesborough, Manchester, Liverpool and Bradford come to mind.

[davidmatzdorf]

My concerns are much more about the space between the buildings than about how they look individually - and that's what CABE have been getting at too. I'm very unconvinced by the grand square and how it would feel as a public space. After all, that's where we'll all gather before matches. To make a slightly exaggerated point, wouldn't it be great to have the piazza in Siena instead of the windblown approach to the old Wembley? Urban places are not just about the buildings, they're about what goes on in between: the Street, the Square, the Arcade, the Green and all of the other archetypes that go into making a city great - which is why I've capitalised them.

The stadium is quite a nice shape and I think the less-than-convincing details could be resolved (although they weren't at the Emirates, where there are a lot of really clumsy bits of detailed design that let the overall form of the building down).

But the housing looks like it's been dropped in from an entirely different set of proposals. The buildings don't have to look the same, in fact they shouldn't, but they should relate to the spaces around them and to each other in a co-ordinated way and they just don't. They look like they're trying to ignore each other. The supermarket is worse. It's just been dropped there, as if to say "I'm only here to make money".

I've been involved in architecture since I was 11, I did my degree in it and I've worked with architects, often cajoling, bullying and cheering them on to improve their designs, for 30 years. It's one of the things I do for a living: I'm sort of a professional architect's client and, in virtually every team I work in, I'm the one who is always placing demands on the architects when others think the design is finished and just want to know how much money it's going to make. It certainly annoys my colleagues from time to time, but after I've done it once, they usually let me get on with it the second time. So I'm likely to be more particular than many about design issues and I fancy I'm likely to see unrealised potential where others just see what's being proposed. I just don't see why we should settle for "OK, I guess" when we could have "excellent".

[changispur]

what the fuck is there about the high road the english heritage could possibly want to keep?

fucking tards

the residents? so that they don't move over to other people's backyards?:rofl:

[JonnySpurs]

My concerns are much more about the space between the buildings than about how they look individually - and that's what CABE have been getting at too. I'm very unconvinced by the grand square and how it would feel as a public space. After all, that's where we'll all gather before matches. To make a slightly exaggerated point, wouldn't it be great to have the piazza in Siena instead of the windblown approach to the old Wembley? Urban places are not just about the buildings, they're about what goes on in between: the Street, the Square, the Arcade, the Green and all of the other archetypes that go into making a city great - which is why I've capitalised them.

The stadium is quite a nice shape and I think the less-than-convincing details could be resolved (although they weren't at the Emirates, where there are a lot of really clumsy bits of detailed design that let the overall form of the building down).

But the housing looks like it's been dropped in from an entirely different set of proposals. The buildings don't have to look the same, in fact they shouldn't, but they should relate to the spaces around them and to each other in a co-ordinated way and they just don't. They look like they're trying to ignore each other. The supermarket is worse. It's just been dropped there, as if to say "I'm only here to make money".

I've been involved in architecture since I was 11, I did my degree in it and I've worked with architects, often cajoling, bullying and cheering them on to improve their designs, for 30 years. It's one of the things I do for a living: I'm sort of a professional architect's client and, in virtually every team I work in, I'm the one who is always placing demands on the architects when others think the design is finished and just want to know how much money it's going to make. It certainly annoys my colleagues from time to time, but after I've done it once, they usually let me get on with it the second time. So I'm likely to be more particular than many about design issues and I fancy I'm likely to see unrealised potential where others just see what's being proposed. I just don't see why we should settle for "OK, I guess" when we could have "excellent".

Can't argue with that really, if we CAN set some new standards and be smart about this when we have the capability to, then why not try to do exactly that.

[spurs_viola]

My concerns are much more about the space between the buildings than about how they look individually - and that's what CABE have been getting at too. I'm very unconvinced by the grand square and how it would feel as a public space. After all, that's where we'll all gather before matches. To make a slightly exaggerated point, wouldn't it be great to have the piazza in Siena instead of the windblown approach to the old Wembley? Urban places are not just about the buildings, they're about what goes on in between: the Street, the Square, the Arcade, the Green and all of the other archetypes that go into making a city great - which is why I've capitalised them.

The stadium is quite a nice shape and I think the less-than-convincing details could be resolved (although they weren't at the Emirates, where there are a lot of really clumsy bits of detailed design that let the overall form of the building down).

But the housing looks like it's been dropped in from an entirely different set of proposals. The buildings don't have to look the same, in fact they shouldn't, but they should relate to the spaces around them and to each other in a co-ordinated way and they just don't. They look like they're trying to ignore each other. The supermarket is worse. It's just been dropped there, as if to say "I'm only here to make money".

I've been involved in architecture since I was 11, I did my degree in it and I've worked with architects, often cajoling, bullying and cheering them on to improve their designs, for 30 years...
...So I'm likely to be more particular than many about design issues and I fancy I'm likely to see unrealised potential where others just see what's being proposed. I just don't see why we should settle for "OK, I guess" when we could have "excellent".

Good points, but if you and us can see these problems, why couldn't the highly paid, carefully selected (presumably) architects firm? Perhaps Levy should have taken more "second opinions" from experts.

The other thing that would have been very important to Levy and creditors was the overall costs, and if they could get away with less than perfect arrangements for secondary areas (ie non-football related), then I guess the architects were briefed so too.

In a better financial climate they might well have gone for better, more expensive plans - but one really has to take into account the harsh realities of credit crisis which has a long way to go before being over.

[doom]

To make a slightly exaggerated point, wouldn't it be great to have the piazza in Siena instead of the windblown approach to the old Wembley?


That's one crazy idea!!