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davidmatzdorf
19-05-2010, 03:24 PM
New planning application responds to consultation and delivers further design improvements to the overall masterplan creating an enhanced setting for the iconic new stadium. Key improvements include:

• A redesign of the Southern area of the site resulting in a stunning new design for the hotel and residential buildings.

• An enlarged public square on a raised podium, which extends from the High Road to Worcester Avenue and connects directly into the Stadium, new Tottenham Hotspur Foundation offices set alongside facilitating even greater community use and activity.

• A high quality environment along the High Road with a new courtyard setting for retained historic buildings to the South and trees, gates and structures in front of the Stadium linking to the existing terrace of historic buildings to the North.

• Grade II listed Warmington House, along with 3 other locally listed buildings with historic links to the Club, to be retained - the Red House, Dispensary and the former White Hart Pub - all to be refurbished and brought back to life.

• Fantastic new Club Megastore with integrated Club museum, ticket office and café.

• Further improvements to the development including a Skybar and roof garden on the adjacent supermarket, linked directly to the Stadium.

• The re-use of the famous Bill Nicholson Gates, ‘Cockerel on the Ball' Clock and ‘Golden Cockerel' statue within the public realm.

Tottenham Hotspur Football Club today announced exciting new plans for the Northumberland Development Project, to be submitted to Haringey Council this week.

The scheme continues to deliver a supermarket to the North, the Stadium connecting directly onto the High Road and homes, a hotel and public square to the South - but now within a new design and landscaping approach. The improvements include a larger public square located on a raised podium, a new design for the hotel and residential buildings, an active courtyard setting for retained historic buildings and continuity of buildings along the High Road connecting North and South.

The previous application received strong backing from the local community and fans alike - with over 800 letters of support sent to Haringey Council from individuals, groups and businesses. The design improvements contained in the new application are the culmination of consultation and discussion with the Government's Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE), English Heritage and other agencies. The changes directly reflect the Club's desire to find the very best solution for the Club and the locality.

Speaking about the changes, Daniel Levy, Chairman of THFC, said:

"We have looked again at the overall masterplan and design of buildings in the south, as well as the impact on Tottenham High Road. We have used this opportunity to make further design improvements to the scheme.

"Schemes of this magnitude involve much time and effort by many parties and we are extremely grateful to everyone who has taken part in the consultation process to date. There is undoubtedly huge support for the development and for retaining the Club in the Borough. Following the consultation period on these new plans we look forward to proceeding to a Haringey Council planning committee to determine the application shortly.

"In much the same way as we persevered and delivered the Training Centre, we remain focussed and committed to delivering a world class, increased capacity stadium, full of atmosphere and creating a thriving new environment on the High Road which would deliver regeneration benefits so important to this part of the Borough and the local community."

Ken Shuttleworth, Founder of Make, the scheme's architect, said:

"The masterplan balances the old and the new, creating a world-class setting for the new stadium and wider development. We have designed an exciting scheme that would be an amenity for the whole community, benefiting the wider Tottenham area."

Stadium Architect David Keirle of KSS, said:

"The stadium itself will be one of the finest anywhere in the world, with exceptional atmosphere including the single tier stand, excellent acoustics and modern new facilities across the building. The stadium architecture responds to the Spurs identity, using flowing lines and a gracefully undulating roof to create a visually stunning building.

"It will be an amazing place to watch football and a fantastic addition to this part of the High Road."

Bernie Kingsley, Chair of the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters Trust, said:

"The new scheme looks impressive. The stadium is an exceptional building of which all Spurs fans would be rightly proud, and it is now surrounded by an even larger public square and cafes and bars. I am also especially pleased to see the Red House retained which has such a strong link with the Club's heritage. This is an exciting time and we look forward to moving into our new home."

The proposed new Stadium has also been included as a potential host venue for the 2018 and 2022 World Cup bid.

The existing 36,000 capacity stadium has remained unchanged for over a decade and the Club is currently in the position of having over 70,000 registered club members and a waiting list for season tickets of more than 23,000 people.

The Northumberland Development Project would represent an investment of hundreds of millions of pounds into North Tottenham, creating new jobs, bringing more spend into the local community and delivering new community facilities including a world class new public square.

As the new planning application process moves ahead it will be important to provide a strong demonstration of support for the scheme. The former application has been withdrawn, therefore, if you signed the petition for the former application it will not apply. Please take a moment and show your support by signing the online petition for the new application by CLICKING HERE... (http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplanspetition)

As always we shall look to keep you, our supporters, along with the local community of Haringey, as informed and up-to-date as possible through the special section of the website - www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans (http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans) - which carries all of the latest news and later today, will be updated with more information about the new plans, so check back then for more information.

From the OS

I'm really pleased to see this. As I suggested might happen, the development has been forced to adopt many of the requirements of English Heritage and the recommendations of CABE.

I'm not convinced that the listed buildings are really worth the effort, but I always thought that the development team would have a backup plan to keep them, just in case. It will cost them a bit more money to save them, but it was not really that difficult a task to incorporate them into the master plan.

As for the CABE criticisms, I agreed with them in principle and I hope that the design team have now improved the integration of the housing, public square, museum, supermarket and stadium elements on the scheme. We'll see when the revised drawings are posted on the council's website.

I'm always cynically loath to suggest that anything involving the English planning system will go smoothly, but really, this ought now to go through the council's approval system rapidly and will then be referred to the Mayor and I think also the Government Office for London for their decisions.

If all goes well from here, then our path through the planning system will have been far, far smoother than the prolonged, hostile wrestling match that Arsenal had with Islington Council. That would vindicate THFC's long term negotiating approach.

Let's see...

full-frontal-nudity
19-05-2010, 04:17 PM
Boner time/store

guiltyparty
19-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Sounds awe-some

whitelightwhiteheat
19-05-2010, 05:19 PM
Sounds absolutely top drawer.

23,000 on the season ticket waiting list? Almost enough to three quarters fill another WHL on top of the existing one. That's pretty impressive.

I'm hoping to get a season ticket at some point in the future at the new stadium. Would be, too use that over-used American type word, AWESOME!

yiddo_4eva
19-05-2010, 06:09 PM
Sounds absolutely top drawer.

23,000 on the season ticket waiting list? Almost enough to three quarters fill another WHL on top of the existing one. That's pretty impressive.

I'm hoping to get a season ticket at some point in the future at the new stadium. Would be, too use that over-used American type word, AWESOME!

I dont know the exact waiting period for a season ticket but one of my friends added his name to the list purely for the hope that come the completion of the new stadium, with the increase in availability of seats that he may be close to getting one within a season or 2....as I say though, not sure time-wise how likely that is with the ever increasing interest!

davidmatzdorf
19-05-2010, 06:09 PM
More pics are available here:

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans/gallery.html#/uploads/assets/gallery/futurePlans/NDP_-_Plan_view_of_full_site.jpg (http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans/gallery.html#/uploads/assets/gallery/futurePlans/NDP_-_Plan_view_of_full_site.jpg)


Anyone who can read architectural plans ought to be able to see immediately how much better this is at the Southern end. In place of a row of rather random slabs of housing of varying numbers of storeys, arranged perpendicular to Park Lane for no clear reason and with a public square squatting at the corner of Park Lane and the High Rd, relating not at all to the housing blocks, we now have a sort of scalloped curve of housing that reflects the curve of the stadium, with a triangular tower (probably more housing) monitoring it at one end and, crucially, a four-legged public square with access at each corner, so it actually goes somewhere, i.e., people will cross it to get places. Public squares work when they are on routes of desire to get from one place to another, because then they always have people in them.

I'm not clear where the museum is and the listed buildings are all a bit marooned along the High Rd, but the housing and the square at the South end make infinitely more sense as a design that relates to the stadium.

Pity they can't spell "aerial", though :wink:.

TheChosenOne
19-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Duly signed.

Warmington House, the memories in the Spurs Supporters Club - warm Skol Lager at about 20p a pint - Those were the days - the bad old days LOL.

fatspur
19-05-2010, 06:40 PM
exciting times. They still have the old application on the site, but keep your eyes open for the new application on the Harigey Council Planning site http://www.haringey.gov.uk/planning-mainpage.htm The plans take ages to download because the files are so big, but it is worth the wait, because the detailed planes are truly spectacular

DC_Boy
19-05-2010, 06:44 PM
i don't want us to sell too many STs anyway

something like 35,000 STs 7000 corporate and away fans

leaves about 14,000 for members and general sale

i think it's important more people who just want to go to the odd game without signing up for membership etc get their chance

i know they do to a certain extent anyway, but for the big games it's usually a no or just the odd ticket in a bad/expensive seat

there are whole swathes of spurs fans out there within reasonable travelling distance who never go to games

we need to get some of those back in just occasionally, because if they can take someone with them, that's often the chance for a new person to get involved in the club as well

spurs_viola
19-05-2010, 07:48 PM
i don't want us to sell too many STs anyway

something like 35,000 STs 7000 corporate and away fans

leaves about 14,000 for members and general sale

i think it's important more people who just want to go to the odd game without signing up for membership etc get their chance

i know they do to a certain extent anyway, but for the big games it's usually a no or just the odd ticket in a bad/expensive seat

there are whole swathes of spurs fans out there within reasonable travelling distance who never go to games

we need to get some of those back in just occasionally, because if they can take someone with them, that's often the chance for a new person to get involved in the club as well

I agree. It is very difficult/almost impossible to get general sale tickets for fresh new fans for the bigger, exciting games, where they could be hooked on supporting the club for a long time to come.

JoeT
19-05-2010, 08:33 PM
Thanks for that link D.M.

DiscoD1882
19-05-2010, 10:12 PM
Wow!!!!

tippspur59
19-05-2010, 11:58 PM
Looks great,sounds great.

JerryGarcia
20-05-2010, 12:02 AM
If Mr Levy pulls this off and we continue to improve on the pitch, he will be remembered one day as a true legend of the club, right up there with Bill Nicholson.

samways
20-05-2010, 12:34 AM
..there are whole swathes of spurs fans out there within reasonable travelling distance who never go to games

we need to get some of those back in just occasionally, because if they can take someone with them, that's often the chance for a new person to get involved in the club as well

I am one of the swathe!! desperately want to take my daughter to a game or two but if I have free time I usually cant afford it at that time, and if I can afford it and we can go the tickets just arent availiable :bang:

Really want her to see white hart lane before we get the new stadium- feel quite guilty- last time I went was nearly nine years ago :cry:

TheChosenOne
20-05-2010, 01:26 AM
I am one of the swathe!! desperately want to take my daughter to a game or two but if I have free time I usually cant afford it at that time, and if I can afford it and we can go the tickets just arent availiable :bang:

Really want her to see white hart lane before we get the new stadium- feel quite guilty- last time I went was nearly nine years ago :cry:

My second daughter aged 26 has just recently attended her first few matches at WHL, she loved it - I have another 3 kids behine her aged 12,9 & 6 ready willing and able to attend WHL but the price has to be right... Not on the cheap but not silly money either.

doom
20-05-2010, 03:23 AM
they have done the obvious thing and linked the curves of the stadium to the south and done so very well however it looks like they couldn't do this to the supermarket at the north

davidmatzdorf
20-05-2010, 10:33 AM
There's heavy-duty and distorted negative spin about the new stadium in an article in the Times today. I'll see if I can get the link.

EDIT: the article is here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/tottenham/article7131149.ece

It's set up to read as if the scheme has been rejected and all of the comments posted at the bottom of the Times page have fallen for this, but that's not what has happened. As the OS positive-spin-article says, it's been withdrawn and amended to take into account objections received.

The Times story is basically rehashed and distorted and sits under a misleading headline. The first line of the text is simply false: the club have obviously not "abandoned" anything. Describing CABE as "infuriated" is ridiculous - they admired the stadium and demanded improvements to the rest of the scheme, which it seems to me that they have now received.

The quote from the "source close to the process" (surely an opposition councillor) contains nothing that we don't already know, particularly about the transport plan, but more generally that nothing is ever "certain" in the planning arena.

It would not surprise me at all, as I cautioned yesterday, to see this negotiation rumble on for quite some time, perhaps all this year, because the whole English planning system is a mess and it's virtually impossible to agree anything in England, however small or large, without multiple iterations and applications.

But no one has "abandoned" anything and nothing has been "thrown into disarray". The article adopts the diametric opposite spin to the spin that the club put on the revised plans yesterday. The key point is that the original application was withdrawn, not refused. That's a commonplace tactic in planning: you withdraw a controversial application to make amendments and to avoid a premature refusal. They're just negotiating. This is all part of the ludicrous dance.

One thing that the article doesn't overdramatise, but which concerns me nonetheless, is this: it did occur to me yesterday that the housing element looked substantially smaller than in the original scheme. That could have an impact on the overall financial viability of the scheme.

mattyspurs
20-05-2010, 10:41 AM
There you go David


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle7131149.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/tottenham/article7131149.ece)


Tottenham Hotspur have been forced to abandon their plan to redevelop White Hart Lane, throwing into disarray their hopes of playing football in a new 56,000-seat stadium by 2012.
The original proposal, which was submitted to Haringey Council last October, has been withdrawn after Tottenham failed to convince English Heritage and conservation officials that developers should be permitted to demolish four listed buildings on the southwest corner of the site.
The club will present a revised plan, which has reduced housing and retains the listed properties, to the council this week. However, approval of the amended scheme is far from certain and a source close to the process said: “There are still issues to be resolved, particularly in relation to transport and with regard to the [planned] supermarket. Also, conservation and listedbuilding consent will be required for extensive demolition on the High Road, which has yet to be resolved.”
When the club formally entered the planning process last October, they were working to a timetable that included gaining approval at a council planning meeting by March this year, according to documents seen by The Times. Sources close to the project said that the postponed meeting with Haringey Council — which is likely only to take place once the club are confident that they have a plan that will be approved — will probably be delayed until the autumn, at the earliest.

“The first application [was] of concern to us,” English Heritage said. “The amended application, which we are anticipating coming to us, will cause less [historic] harm. It will go to our advisory committee for consideration. That will take months rather than weeks, as this is not a small development. This is something that needs very careful consideration.”

The glitches with the new stadium project are not the first time that Tottenham have experienced problems with the planning process. In 2003, planning permission for a “state-of-the-art training centre and football academy” near Abridge, Essex, was refused by Epping Forest District Council’s district development committee. Having abandoned those plans, the club are building their new academy in Bulls Cross, Enfield.
“In much the same way as we persevered and delivered the training centre, we remain focused and committed to delivering a world-class, increased-capacity stadium, full of atmosphere and creating a thriving new environment on the High Road, which would deliver regeneration benefits so important to this part of the borough and the local community,” Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, said. “There is undoubtedly huge support for the development.”

mattyspurs
20-05-2010, 10:41 AM
Damn you, you beat me to it!!!

tomo
20-05-2010, 02:56 PM
“In much the same way as we persevered and delivered the training centre, we remain focused and committed to delivering a world-class, increased-capacity stadium, full of atmosphere and creating a thriving new environment on the High Road, which would deliver regeneration benefits so important to this part of the borough and the local community,” Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, said. “There is undoubtedly huge support for the development.”

Thats enough for me to not be worried. I'm struggling to believe that the local people of Tottenham or the council wouldn't see this as beneficial to their community.

g_harry
20-05-2010, 02:58 PM
looks like a much better design & improviement on the first

worcestersauce
20-05-2010, 03:01 PM
It'd be even better without the old piles of Bricks in the way.

fatspur
20-05-2010, 03:37 PM
I think the key points are that the concerns of CABE and English Heritage have been taken on board, and hopefully largely addressed. It does still leave the transport issue - and those people who say we need a tube station need to understand that there are no lines anywhere near - so any improvement would depend on the overground from Liverpool St.

While the reduction in housing units from 434 to 200 will have an effect on the financial viability of the scheme, my guess is that it won't be a deal-breaker: with onerous section 106 requirements the margin on housing development is currently not great, witness the low number of developments currently taking place.

Who knows? Maybe the delay will have put us in a better position to negotiate for naming rights, with CL football undoubtedly raising our profile next season (qualifier permitting)

A huge scheme like trhis was never going to proceed without problems, but it would appear that we are certainly moving in the right direction.

spurs_viola
20-05-2010, 05:01 PM
“In much the same way as we persevered and delivered the training centre, we remain focused and committed to delivering a world-class, increased-capacity stadium, full of atmosphere and creating a thriving new environment on the High Road, which would deliver regeneration benefits so important to this part of the borough and the local community,” Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, said. “There is undoubtedly huge support for the development.”

Thats enough for me to not be worried. I'm struggling to believe that the local people of Tottenham or the council wouldn't see this as beneficial to their community.

Unfortunately, the local people of Tottenham and the council will need very different levels of persuasion. Council bureaucrats like to pretend they are almost a law unto themselves, and make sure nothing gets resolved faster than they see fit.

The spreading of quangos and civil service offices in the last decade has made the system even more of a hindrance to progressive development, imo.

tttcowan
20-05-2010, 05:46 PM
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans/news/a-fitting-place-for-bill-in-new-stadium-plans-200510.html

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

DC_Boy
20-05-2010, 07:12 PM
i don't think we need a tube station - and there's no chance of us getting one in the next five years

so the ground has to be accepted with the current tansport facilities - albeit hopefully improved services

davidmatzdorf
20-05-2010, 08:03 PM
The spreading of quangos and civil service offices in the last decade has made the system even more of a hindrance to progressive development, imo.

Hmm. I'm not sure it has much to do with quangos, nor whether they have made the system worse. It was already completely hopeless in the 90s. The last government set out to improve it, but they were obsessed with their "targets" based culture and they failed utterly as a direct result of that. I could give specific reasons for this, but it would be a diversion and a rant.

If anything, Quango no. 1, English Heritage, now has a lot less power than it did prior to 1997. That has less to do with progressive Labour government policy and more to do with changing views in society on the balance between historical and modern architecture.

Quango no. 2 for our purposes is CABE and I think that's been a pretty good thing, especially as it has been instrumental in countering the "old is better" shibboleths of English Heritage. CABE was set up because there is no real advocate for good design in the planning system. Planning law just ignores it. It's all about use classes and density and infrastructure. Quality doesn't figure.

As well as trying to be a cheerleader for quality, CABE is there to make the argument that a scheme can sometimes be rejected because it's shit. There wasn't a culture of quality before CABE. I'm not sure there is one now, but at least there is someone with a defined status in the system to speak up for good design.

In this case, they didn't say our scheme was shit, just that it should be better. I think anyone can see from the new plans that they were right. The scheme is better as a result of their admonishment. I'm not convinced that it is better as a result of English Heritage's intervention.

spurs_viola
21-05-2010, 12:04 AM
Hmm. I'm not sure it has much to do with quangos, nor whether they have made the system worse. It was already completely hopeless in the 90s. The last government set out to improve it, but they were obsessed with their "targets" based culture and they failed utterly as a direct result of that. I could give specific reasons for this, but it would be a diversion and a rant.

If anything, Quango no. 1, English Heritage, now has a lot less power than it did prior to 1997. That has less to do with progressive Labour government policy and more to do with changing views in society on the balance between historical and modern architecture.

Quango no. 2 for our purposes is CABE and I think that's been a pretty good thing, especially as it has been instrumental in countering the "old is better" shibboleths of English Heritage. CABE was set up because there is no real advocate for good design in the planning system. Planning law just ignores it. It's all about use classes and density and infrastructure. Quality doesn't figure.

As well as trying to be a cheerleader for quality, CABE is there to make the argument that a scheme can sometimes be rejected because it's shit. There wasn't a culture of quality before CABE. I'm not sure there is one now, but at least there is someone with a defined status in the system to speak up for good design.

In this case, they didn't say our scheme was shit, just that it should be better. I think anyone can see from the new plans that they were right. The scheme is better as a result of their admonishment. I'm not convinced that it is better as a result of English Heritage's intervention.

The plans are indeed better now, probably to a large extent due to the CABE report, but ultimately, the good design is not the most important thing here, I believe. The bigger the project, the bigger the stakes for the councils and the more their bureaucrats want to show their self-importance. This project is probably the biggest in Haringey council in the last decade and the bureaucrats there are going to milk it for every last drop. If there was a rival bid (hypothetically), and if they could get more out of a scheme with poorer design rather than less our of a good design scheme, they would approve the poorer scheme in the end, citing all kinds of phony pseudo-populistic reasons to make it look as if it's somehow benefits the People of Tottenham more than the other design.

davidmatzdorf
21-05-2010, 12:33 AM
SV, I just don't understand your last point at all. I can't work out what you're trying to say. The only bit that makes any sense to me is "the good design is not the most important thing here".

I did my degree in architecture and I've worked in development for 30 years and that's just ... wrong. This project is going to stand for at least a century - it's a flagship development and there's just no excuse for mediocrity. There never is.

spurs_viola
21-05-2010, 01:14 AM
SV, I just don't understand your last point at all. I can't work out what you're trying to say. The only bit that makes any sense to me is "the good design is not the most important thing here".

I did my degree in architecture and I've worked in development for 30 years and that's just ... wrong. This project is going to stand for at least a century - it's a flagship development and there's just no excuse for mediocrity. There never is.

My point is simply that for the decision-making bureucrats (council or higher) the good design is not the most important thing. You and I, and most other people are of course happier with the better design and scheme, which would undoubtedly benefit the largely neglected area in NE17.

But ultimately it is whether the local authorities decide they have got as much as they could out of a project like this that will bring the decision/Go-Ahead. Not the phony concerns about so-called historical value buildings in Haringey that only a handful of people care about.

The west London congestion charge zone was opposed by about 70% of local population. It went ahead anyway, on insistence from the crazy Mayor Ken and his office, who stood to gain much more from that scheme than from a lesser, better planned, more desirable scheme. And Ken with his cronies had a lot of reports to support that decision in his obsessive war on cars too.

sly1
21-05-2010, 02:01 AM
I really don't understand your point at all. What exactly are you suggesting the motivation of the council is? You keep vaguely referring to some shadowy bureaucrats, without really explaining what you're complaining about. Is this just paranoia or do you actually have a point?

tevezito
21-05-2010, 02:17 AM
I really don't understand your point at all. What exactly are you suggesting the motivation of the council is? You keep vaguely referring to some shadowy bureaucrats, without really explaining what you're complaining about. Is this just paranoia or do you actually have a point?

The only point I can make out of SV's posts is that he has an authority complex - which possibly also explains his obsession with criticising Harry, who as manager has authority over the players.

spurs_viola
21-05-2010, 03:18 PM
I know it must be difficult for some people to understand that the government authorities may have reasons other than pure public interests when they make decisions. To put it more bluntly (as it seems some people will not get it otherwise), many government authorities (yes, bureaucrats) will make decisions based on the benefits for themselves first, rather than based on how good a design is and how much it would benefit the locals. Is that clear enough?

Of course, sly1 and tevezito may work for the local authorities themselves, in which case they would never admit this point openly.

Coyboy
21-05-2010, 07:43 PM
SE17? I didn't know it was that big.

Have you got evidence to back up your cynical waffle or has it just been a slow day at the office? I like others don't really know what your point is.