Future Exits?

[chiveliyid]

Following on from a post made by drnbean today, he raised the point that we can't afford to sell another big player in the way that we did with Carrick.

To me this is the most important factor in us becoming a really successful side once again and is the only thing (save something happening to Jol/Levy or one of the big players) that can derail us. In selling our big players, it invites the big teams to believe that they can poach our players and it lessens our impact as a team who want to break into the elite four. We've got to keep building a team, not look to off-load our best performers.

I don't blame Levy etc for letting Carrick go, I didn't want him to but I think with the situation as it was, maybe we had to and in that case we had Huddlestone waiting in the wings. The money allowed us to strengthen in other areas too, so it could have strengthened us in the long term, even though it damaged us as a team in the short term.

It is true also that whilst the players are developing there will be inconsistency and that is a massive feature of our current campaign. That is why when a player develops more consistency as Carrick had it is not viable to sell them. At the moment we have Robbo (if not so much of late), Chimbonda, King, Dawson and Keane as the only players who have sprung to mind that are consistent in games. In there I'd say Dawson still has a little way to go.

Further afield we have players like Berbatov, Jenas, Defoe, Lennon, (Tainio, Davids and Mido - barring injuries) who are generally quite consistent but still don't always look completely at ease with what they are doing. Then further down are players like Lee, Huddlestone, Zokora, Ghaly, Davenport and Murphy who often look far from settled.

For me, at this present moment we only really have two players who are currently settled/consistent and who are on good form, these being Dawson and Chimbonda. Malbranque, Defoe and Berbatov could also potentially be added in this bracket at this time. Even despite having few mature/comfortable/consistent performers in the side we are still generally getting results and 'bringing home the bacon' as one of my work colleagues so often likes to say.

Basically we/Jol is looking to get it so we have 11-15 players in our squad who are settled/ consistent high performers. Who have been at Spurs for a couple of years, know the team, know each other and have experience of the English and European competitions. We now have the quality and talent, but we need to harvest it through to fruition if we are going to succeed in winning trophies and being successful. Man U with their crop of players (i.e. Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc) didn't achieve success over night it took 2-4 seasons for them to grow as players and bond too. That is what we require, unfortunately we are more prone to losing one or two players along the way and this is what we must ensure does not happen. Hopefully our one or two can be Carrick and Arnesen.

So to answer drnbean's question, what will prevent future exits? It will be brave and clever ownership (which we appear to have with Levy), consistent management (which I hope we will continue to have in Jol and Comolli), outstanding fan support (which on the whole is there) and future developments coming through (i.e. the training ground and new stadium plans). It is these things, which should help us to attain success on the pitch and ensure that loyalty to the developing Club is retained. If the management and the players can see that success is coming and development is nearing, then there should be no reason to want to move to another club.

There is one over-riding factor that kept Henry at Arsenal last year and that was the new stadium. It offered change and new development at the club. Without that, he would now be at Barca. We need to have plans in for a new stadium or massive development of the Lane to be ready within say four years. Otherwise players like Lennon, Huddlestone may seek to move to play in front of a further 30-40,000 people each week. If they can see themselves being legends at a legendary club then they will stay. We need to do everything we can to accommodate the picture in their minds of Tottenham Hotspur being the club that people will look back on as the team of the era. (i.e. Liverpool in 80s, Man U 90s). We need to show them that we can become the team of the 10s (2010 onwards). The concept that they could be the catalyst to that rise and then fulfil their own potential with us is what will keep them at the club.

In my eyes we are on our way to great things. We have the Chairman, the Manager and are only about 5 players away from having the squad to take us to the top. As stated selling our best players is not an option. Increased capacity and resources are also needed to keep the likes of Lennon, Robinson and Berbatov happy!

[drnbean]

I hope the ambitions of the club go beyond mid table w occasional forays into the promised land. I want a permanent and sustained return to the glory glory days. I want Spurs to be on par w the Real, Barca, Milan's of this world. To get there requires a new stadium 60000+. Ars#$% have made the plunge and as a result will remain light years ahead for some time. Is that acceptable? Do the Spurs faithful realize this? I fear many do not realize the significance and importance of prompt planning and action. It should be letter writing campaign, banner marching, up in arms type of stuff rather than....WHL is quaint and I'd hate to see us move.

[karennina]

I hope the ambitions of the club go beyond mid table w occasional forays into the promised land. I want a permanent and sustained return to the glory glory days. I want Spurs to be on par w the Real, Barca, Milan's of this world. To get there requires a new stadium 60000+. Ars#$% have made the plunge and as a result will remain light years ahead for some time. Is that acceptable? Do the Spurs faithful realize this? I fear many do not realize the significance and importance of prompt planning and action. It should be letter writing campaign, banner marching, up in arms type of stuff rather than....WHL is quaint and I'd hate to see us move.

Despite it being very early in the morning, I agree wholeheartedly with everything wot you said there.

[onthetwo]

at the end of the day there are only really two words that will make our top players stay...Champions League.

[easiman]

Good post, actually I think money has a say. Carrick for example, was reportedly offered a fourfold pay hike, hard to not be unsettled. Plus as was mentioned Champions League.

[Peters]

at the end of the day there are only really two words that will make our top players stay...Champions League.

Champions League.. and a pay structure to compete with the best

[justfookinhitit]

Everything stems from cashflow, and spurs need a significantly bigger stadium capacity to drive that. With better cashflow we can pay the transfer fees and pay the salaries of the players we'd need to achieve Champions League qualification on a consistent basis.

Look at Chelski, Manure, Liverpool and the Arse - all have healthier cashflow than ours. Now apart from Chelski finding an oligarch willing to pump his pocket money into the club, everyone else has the ground capacity to drive higher revenues.

I can't help thinking spurs is ripe for a big investor - London club, wealthy fan base, good history, already has a good squad requiring only a few signings to really turn the corner etc etc.

Thoughts?

[striebs]

Arsenal achieved their success with a ground only marginally bigger than ours but the climate is changing .

We weren't ready for CL last year , the experience of Uefa will stand the team in good stead .

Your assessment is correct , staff and particularly player retention is very important , as important as new signings .

[DCSPUR]

I think the club has been very clever in recent years with its transfer policy - I've calculated that from the Defoe/Brown purchases (7.5 million total) onwards we have spent 23.3 million pounds (includes the Arnsen fee but not the 15 million share issue).
If you include the share issue, rising sponsorship etc. we are a club with lots of cash available for retention of current players or bringing in new ones.
Going forward remember that if a player at the club wants to break the scale we have to be cautious because you have a lot of other stars at the club locked into long term contracts and they'd get unsettled.
Finally remember that them lot down the road have been very cautious about paying big wages - Henry is the first to break their structure.

[Eyebrowman]

Justfookinhitit, I dont mean to criticize, but I personally would hate for an abramovich to take over, pump the club full of money and buy success. I'd rather it be 'my' Spurs who built up the right way, with good management from the top down and shrewd movements in the market coupled with developing our core of youth.
I do agree we need stadium development, but i believe that Levy is moving as fast as he can on that because he knows it better than anyone. Its the local councils and the lack of money for regeneration that has stymied it so far. I honestly believe that if a partnership plan were put in place today for the regeneration of the area and transport links, Spurs would have space for 50-55k seats by the start of the 08/09 season.

[2bearis2do]

Spot on.

We don't need a NEW stadium.

Best stadiums in the country...Man Ure and NEwQ Brown. Both being developed on their original sites. Heaven forbid we get an Emirates or Stadium of Doom.

WHat we DO need is a larger capacity (55-60,000)and better transport links. I think we stand 8th in the Pleague for average attendances behind the likes of Citah and Everton and the moronic Chelski scum (Loyal...you're having a laugh!). And 9th for capacity (behind Villa). NO wander we're not seen as a big club or indeed a top six club. You can be sure this was not the case in our glorious days.

Both increased capacity and improved transport links are very doable on the existing site. If only we can get the local authority to support the cause (How hard has it been to invest in the new training ground?) ridiculous, bureaucratic madness. Lets face it any investment in the WHL area is going to be a good investment. As much as I breath THFC I get depressed walking down the 7 sisters, it's horrible! And also pretty damn dangerous at night if you get stuck there as I did after the Bill Nich Hall of Fame night. When top security man at WHL managed to get me a cab to go South of the river. He said there had been many shooting and stabbing incidents in the area etc

Thats by the by, but there are existing UNUSED railway lines that can feed the crowds to and from the Lane. What the LAuth were not approving was the building and funding of a new Tube Station (probably because they'd have to spend thousands on changing their underground maps).

Levy is doing all he can and checking out every angle. In my mind we should bite the bullet and offer to pay for the new tube station. Whats 10mill relative to a complete new stadium? Obviously its not as simple as that you've also got the residential problems of removing existing tenants as the stadium expands, but compulsory purchases aren't a new thing, happened in both NewQ and Man U, they get paid double the value of their house and off they go. Who would want to live next door to a ground anyway?

I'm belching tangents now, but in a nut shell. Redevelop the Lane, Regenerate the area. Everyone wins.

[Quinton Spur]

I am hoping we can push on second half of the season and go past Portsmouth at least and hopefully Bolton given our cup progress this season (with more to come) to be fifth again would represent progress.

If we win a cup I'd settle for seventh in the league . . .
:-)

I think setting that sort of mark would make us very, very attractive to new players and ensure we keep the quality we already have.

[johna]

What we do need is to stop wasting money on players who are just not up to it. To me Zokara as been very dissapointing for the wad we splashed out on him. We are still short of a midfielder who can take the game by the balls and stand up and be counted. So lets get it right on the pitch first then the worry about new stadiums etc..

[justfookinhitit]

Justfookinhitit, I dont mean to criticize, but I personally would hate for an abramovich to take over, pump the club full of money and buy success. I'd rather it be 'my' Spurs who built up the right way, with good management from the top down and shrewd movements in the market coupled with developing our core of youth.
I do agree we need stadium development, but i believe that Levy is moving as fast as he can on that because he knows it better than anyone. Its the local councils and the lack of money for regeneration that has stymied it so far. I honestly believe that if a partnership plan were put in place today for the regeneration of the area and transport links, Spurs would have space for 50-55k seats by the start of the 08/09 season.


Hey - I agree. I don't want an oligarch to turn up either. the transformation that has taken place over the past couple of years has been really pleasing. I'm a huge fan of bringing in good english talent and developing them into great prem & international players.

I'd much rather build from where we are, develop the existing ground to closer to the 50k capacity. My point was just that spurs is an obviously attractive target should anyone with a pot of cash wish to buy an English club.

[psturdy]

This is actually quite a tricky question, before the emotional pull of staying at the Lane is taken into account.

Don't forget that literally shed loads of cash is being pumped into East London for the Olympics. I don't pretend to know how that is to be financed (Central Government/London/Local Authorities/Sponsorship) - one thing is sure this big project will crowd out/choke off transport/sport related funding to areas like Tottenham. Just a fact of life.

With this background lasting until 2012, it is unlikely we will get any finance for improved stadium/transport links until then. Even in these circumstances, the club could extend the ground on the current "footprint" to around 45-50,000 by redeveloping the West stand/car park etc.

This was the appeal of the "Golden Bullet" solutions of moving to the Olympic stadium (rightly discounted by Comolli in my view) or even Wembley - both newly developed grounds with purpose built transport facilities.

The question is how large capacity do we need? We should be aiming to exceed the Ar$e (no point in aiming too low) so my vote goes to Wembley in the long term unless we can improve transport to WHL, which I don't expect in the short term.

[topaz]

I’m glad people are focusing again on the necessity of a bigger stadium – and also that people tend to be coming down on the side of expanding <st1:Street><st1:address>White Hart Lane</st1:address></st1:Street>. Quite apart from our inevitable concerns over losing the heart of the club if we moved from the Lane, the Tottenham area badly needs us. As I understood it, the houses in Paxton and <st1:Street><st1:address>Park Lane</st1:address></st1:Street> have already been bought and outline planning permission gained for an extension of the East Stand (some kind of stilted structure over the road, wasn’t it?). Like 2bearis2do I have often wondered whether the solution might not be for the club to pay for the new Victoria Line tube station – or at least contribute so much towards it that it becomes an offer that the authorities can’t refuse. But could a station really be built for £10 million?<o:p></o:p>

[welshspurs]

my thoughts on the new stadium are to knock down WHL and completley rebuild a 65,000 state of the art new ground on the same site therefor saving money on a new plot of land. we can play our home games at wembley until it is built so we are happy all round.CANT WAIT TO GET CARDIFF AT THE LANE COYS!!!!!:shake:

[justfookinhitit]

Can't believe a new underground station would only cost $10m - surely it would be far more.

[chiveliyid]

Redevelopment would be great, but the main problems remain in the transport links. I agree with whoever said it, that Levy etc are working as quickly as they can and as far as I can see they are doing a fantastic job. Anyone know if there have been any developments on the training ground? Last I heard we were having to reassess because of some bats.

[elDiablo]

In response to onthe2's post.........

The whole idea about selling players, the champions league, etc etc, is that its quite a catch 22. Last season, arguably our most consistent performer was the reason we reached the dizzy heights of 5th place. He got poached in a deal that was good for everyone, and in my opinion possibly jumped a little bit above his station to soon. Now this season we have struggled (although DMatz.. statistics dont suggest this) and now we are in a position where we all know we need to consolidate our position in europe. This is where the possible catch lies - particularly for our older players. For us to qualify, our main men have to perform...i.e the likes of defoe, keane, dawson, and jenas when he returns. If these players dont perform, and we finish 9th, down to the fact that our main players have played poorly, will there be as much interest? will we sell defoe for £7m........i really dont think we would. On the other hand, if our players play out of their skins, and we achieve 5th, we would secure europe and the promise (or hope) of continual improvement, our players will be happy, and although there would be alot of interest we wouldnt have to sell. The only problem with this situation is our youngsters. If we finished 9th, then the vultures will be circling around lennon et al, but thankfully we have tied them down for along time.

Basically in quite a long winded argument, dont expect our team to just break up if we dont get europe again. Maybe one or two may leave, but we have the foundations to keep growing from strength to strength.

[Shirtfront]

Hmmm. While I agree that ultimately redevelopment or a new stadium will be necessary, I think there is a danger of "overcapitalising" if we are not careful. A couple of points:

1. Everyone is pointing to the Scum as an example of how a new stadium allows you to improve revenue and keep/buy players. In actual fact, while that may well be true in the future, it absolutely is not true so far. They have kept/bought their players DESPITE not because of their new stadium. They have been had to be very careful over the last few years because of the cost of funding the new stadium. Their net cash flow has been severely damaged in the short term. That may well pay off in the future (unfortunately), but they have had 5 years now of shoestring budget because of it. It is only the Paedo's brillinat to lure young african kiddies to his nest that has kept their onfield success at a top four (but not title winning) level. And they are still a way off getting back to where they were.

2. The conseqences of getting it wrong on the pitch, while you are paying for the stuff around it, can be disastrous. Do you not recall all the Articles in the paper pointing out that the ability of Arsenal to fund the payment of Cashgonefurburton grove was predicated on their ability to continue to qualify for the Champions league. They were one lasagne away from missing that, and the knock on effects could have been cataclysmic. ManU's entire finance is based on the same premise, although are more likely to deliver each year because their Revenue is so much higher than those outside the top , it wasn't relegation, for those of you who want to argue). Orfour anyway, stadium or not. Leeds anyone? West Ham's Lost Generation (which had to be sold because of the crippling debt they incurred to redevelop Disney Park (no those with a memory will remember the lean years in the nineties where our own redevelopment nearly broke us. It's like any leverage: it enhances success; but it accentuates failure just as much. Are we so sure we will win enough matches to bring in enough money to pay the Bank? We played 40 last year, our most successful in ages.

3. The other clubs (apart from the Russian whores), including the Scum, all built/expanded their stadiums FOLLOWING success; not to garner it. "If you build it, they will come" is all very well for Kevin Costner, but it's a high risk play for the reasons above.

4. A big stadium (and the revenue it generates) doesn't guarantee success. The BarCodes have had one for years, in a one team town, and although they have enjoyed the revenue that brings in at times, they haven't won a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I agree we need to expand. The waiting list for Season Tickets evidences that. But we have to be cautious about it. There was no such waiting list two seasons ago.

[2bearis2do]

Like 2bearis2do I have often wondered whether the solution might not be for the club to pay for the new Victoria Line tube station – or at least contribute so much towards it that it becomes an offer that the authorities can’t refuse. But could a station really be built for £10 million?

It was a bit of a finger in the air guess as to the cost. But if memory serves me right you wouldn't have to build entirely underground, simply have an extension from 7sisters which comes out from below the ground to above ground at the WHL station.

There are many LU stations that are above ground on the South side of the river.

If I had the time and the money I'd do a feasibility study!

I would love to know more about the inner thoughts of THFC, which buildings/houses they have bought, what blueprints they have looked at for redevelopment etc.

Anyone??....

[elDiablo]

3. The other clubs (apart from the Russian whores), including the Scum, all built/expanded their stadiums FOLLOWING success; not to garner it. "If you build it, they will come" is all very well for Kevin Costner, but it's a high risk play for the reasons above.



:rofl:

like the costner line.

cant really argue with that. all i would say is that we dont want to get left behind before its too late. With premiership clubs being bought up like krispy kremes, we could find ourselves down the rich list, and in alot sterner competition. I personally think wembley could be a solution - atleast a temporary one. But like most things, it would probably depend on us reaching the champions league. Other than the costly and time consuming redevelopment of White hart lane, i dont think there are any alternatives.

[kungfugrip]

The existing planning permission to extend the East Stand is probably the best solution IMO. That permission will have to be renewed if we don't built it in the next couple of years (spot the nerdy Town Planner!). It will take capacity to 50,000 and whilst this doesn't quite compete with the Man Utds and Arsenals it would go a long way to get us close to being on a similar playing field. I'm honestly not sure we should have a bigger stadium anyway...this is our first UEFA campaign for 7 years yet there were empty seats at our last home fixture against Dinamo Bucharest. Not many, but there were empty seats. IF we were to have the misfortune of Jol leaving to go to another job say in 5 years just after we've moved into a new 65,000 stadium, a couple of senior players might follow and the next manager may want a clearout of several remaining players....fairly quickly the squad could change dramatically (and not necessarily for the better). It's very possible we could have an average aquad again....and I doubt if we would fill a 60,000 seater stadium every home match. I would hate to see the home of Spurs half full or even three quarters full match after match. 50,000 makes much more sense and I reckon it would be filled or close to being filled every match. Somehow (I don't care how) the transport links need to get sorted, extend The Lane and we can march with confidence into the future.

[firespur]

Hi to all the Spur true & faithful

35years a spurs fan & never been to England never seen a game live - live TV yes, but yet to enjoy the crowds passion..... will travel to London 25th of Jan .... Work & leave on 28th - so still wait a while longer, i will !

mostly just read the forums ..... read enough ... my opinion is usualy covered, very tired of B*^%it articles from suposedly honorable journalism ......... dont mind a bit of rumor mungering - but detest articles that are based on personal opinion - with out having at least atempted the minutest amount of research to substatiate their verbal dribling often hostile opinion!

Not to mention a lack of understanding with rgds to man managment, training ground form, injuries etc etc etc
All issues pertianing to team selection ...... like the lattest ofering of crap articles
Mido is out
Chimbonda to Italy
Callum davenport out - frdinand in
Defoe to be sold

All a load of bollocks
MJ has proven him self to be truthful & frank in all discussions that i have seen / herd ........
so stuff the papers stuff the bogus web sites stuff 90% of the suposed sports journalists .........

Ive just joined a site where I can talk to the fans ..... be they in the know or not ..... at least i hope their geniune Spurs !

Sorry for the rant ....... probably wont here much from me now ............ but hay no promises

COYS

[davidmatzdorf]

What Shirtfront writes about the tight cash situation at Arse*** over the past few years is correct, but that conspicuously changed about a year ago, when they started marketing the residential development on the old Highbury site "off plan". They all went like the proverbial hot cakes and for prices that exceeded expectations.

So I think the precise description would be that Arse*** had to be very careful for several years, because of the great risk they had taken, but that this risk has paid off handsomely for them, very much as in the capitalist watchword, "you have to speculate to accumulate". They are making such an enormous profit on the residential development that their borrowing on Ashburton Grove will be able to be drastically reduced and this will make their financial position very strong indeed, especially after one adds in the increased revenue from overpriced boxes and the general extra capacity.

A similar principle applies to the existing planning consent to extend WHL, of which I have never seen any details and which I thought had already expired (they last for 5 years - you actually have to start building something within that period; and now new planning consents last only 3 years, to deter developers from "sitting" on sites).

I think the club wants to assemble land near the stadium for profit-making mixed-use development, including residential units, to subsidise the cost of enlarging the stadium. One of the club directors has a paid consulting role, which I understand is to extend and develop the club's landholdings around WHL, and this can only be for associated development for profit.

So I think it is unlikely that the club will implement the existing planning consent - even if it is still valid, if they felt it was a viable option, they would have been working on it since it was granted.

[BigStu]

It all comes down to the £20M you get for being in the champions league. 2 or 3 years of this would be great. There is a gulf in this country between the teams in the CL and the teams that aren't. It brings in money, it attracts good players but it doesn't stop them leaving.

We are not far from that big step that we should have had last season.

What we have to admit is that sometimes losing one player can benefit the whole of the team. the money we got for Carrick all but bought Berbs Zakora and Lennon. This for a player that is proving that he is not the class of player we require with every half game he plays for manure.

We still have the Mansion money and we are improving. Patience is the key