Schizophrenic

[anthony kelly]

Over the last few weeks supporting my beloved Spurs has driven me crazy. I feel as if I have developed a split personality.

The good side still loves the super Spurs( and wants Martin Jol to remain in charge ). The bad moody side hates Spurs (at the moment) and has run out of patience with the big man. I am sad to say that at the moment the bad tempered moody side has got a grip of me and is making my blood boil.

The Ars#### away 2nd leg was the final straw for me. I was getting more and more agitated as the game got nearer. Why ? Because deep down I knew my beloved Spurs were going to get beaten! (and believe me I am normally very optimistic, I've booked my flight to Glasgow already UEFA Cup).

Why shouldn't Spurs expect to go to the emir#### and get a result against a weakened nomad team? Because our team has no self belief, the game is lost before a ball is kicked, you can see it when we go ahead against the top teams (Chelski at home an exception) That belief has to be instilled from the manager/coach.

I never hear positive fighting talk from either Martin or Chris, in fact they seem to talk the opposition up the whole time, no wonder the players lack belief. We seem content to eke out a point away from home when we have the players and team capable of murdering a lot of the prem. opposition but we never do or look like doing.

My Spurs LOVING side argues that I have to be patient, Spurs have a young team, they are going places, the manager is the best thing since sliced bread, the team are a little inconsistent at the moment, we have a few injuries, we were a little unlucky in the last game, we played well first half , then my ANGRY head roars back Bol###ks, we were piss poor, clueless, gutless, spineless, sh###e no passion ,no fight, no determination, and worse still totally unprofessional, and the results and manner of the results is what sways the argument for me:

Leicester 2-0 thrown away (FA Cup)
Grimsby ( say no more )
WBA away 2-0 ( relegated side )
Bolton away 2-0 this season
Liverpool away 3-0
Newcastle away 3-1 (game over after 20 mins)
Man utd home 4-0 (game over just after h/time)
Everton home (10 men)
Fulham away (10 men)
Blackburn away ( 10 men )
Ars#### away 3-0 (didn't turn up)

You can see why I am struggling here.

Yes we have performed excellently in the UEFA Cup, and I hope we go on to reach the final and win it , believe me nothing would make me happier than to see Martin Jol and Chris Hughton turn this around, but the next few games could decide who will be our manager next season, fingers crossed it comes good.

COYS !.:bang:

[onthetwo]

Well at least we're better than england!

[aylespur]

Good article, think most long suffering Spurs supporters feel exactly the same as you do. Went to the 1st leg against the goons and performance was typical Spurs. At half time we were all in heaven, alas half an hour later we had yet again capitulated and were all in despair again. Spend plenty of money and time supporting our beloved Spurs, but cant help thinking if the team showed half the commitment of most of the fans we would certainly be a top team once again!:clap: :clap: :clap:

[avonspurs]

Perhaps you should stop listening to both of those sides and start looking at things slightly more rationally - which, trust me, I know is nigh-on impossible when it comes to football. Sometimes we, as fans, have to hold our hands up and go: "We were beaten by a better team". I feel that we are a good team, but as I mentioned in a previous post a long time ago, we are still too inconsistent. Last season we werent but, honestly, who can hold their hands up as a Spurs fan last season and say that there werent times when we were a tad lucky, times when we were completely outclassed and outplayed as a team and yet either held on for a point or got a win? Further, we played about 40 games last season; we've played that already. I'm not saying we're tired, etc., etc., but what I am saying is that the more games, the more chances that our inconsistency will show up. As for the games you listed, for every team in the league (bar maybe the top 4) their supporters could do the same....again, inconsistency. I'm hoping - no, I believe - giving the new players this season to bed in will tell next season....I'm just hoping that we find our way into Europe for next season and I, for one, am prepared to accept any route.

[CosmicHotspur]

I'm in two minds about this thread ...

[spurs4europe]

i'd just like to add to avonspurs that our most important player and captain has been missing for much of this season too, unlike last season when he played pretty much the full season.
as avonspurs said, occasionally we were lucky to win and just about hung on to the result. the loss of king now means its a lot harder to hang onto any result, and when we play well there's still a chance the opposition can nick a goal back at any moment and we'll lose momentum: newcastle at home, etc.
for the majority of this season i've been championing berbs as our most important player. suddenly i'm not sure...

one can argue that at the level we are now, we should have a squad containing adequate replacements for every single player, but lets face it, that simply isn't true for some players, is it? furthermore, this is still a young project we've got here, which definitely hasn't had time to come to fruition yet. we now have a strong first team, but the level of our squad overall is far below the others who we are aiming to compete with. that's the problem for us with now playing more than 40 games a season: it's not so much about inconsistencies being exposed as it is your squad being exposed and we simply haven't got the squad to compete with them....YET! the obvious example is l'arse, who although everyone hates to say it, they now have a squad which is far superior to ours and can draft players in and out depending on fitness conditions, which we simply cannot do yet, with the obvious result that the lennons and hudds of this world are playing probably a bit more more often than they should at this stage of their development and are getting knackered.

so my suggestion is be a little more understanding, and listen to your 'good' side, as you call it, a bit more. a first team is already a lot stronger, just wait until our overall squad is too and i don't think we'll be disappointed! COYS

[badders]

Leicester 2-0 thrown away (fa cup)
Grimsby ( say no more )
WBA away 2-0 ( relegated side )
Bolton away 2-0 this season
Liverpool away 3-0
Newcastle away 3-1 (game over after 20 mins)
Man utd home 4-0 (game over just after h/time)
Everton home (10 men)
Fulham away (10 men)
Blackburn away ( 10 men )
Ars#### away 3-0 (didn't turn up)

Leicester 2-0 Thrown Away - Agreed this was awful
Grimsby - As Above

WBA - Away defeats to a lesser club around the Xmas period (happens to everyone). Doesnt make it acceptable, but a club like Spurs will get 3 or 4 of these a season.

Bolton - Always beat Arsenal at home, Beat Liverpool at home this season. Not great to watch but good at what they do, losing here is no big travesty, its a very difficult place to get a result, especially on the first day of the season with a few new foreign recruits who have no idea of the prem, let alone Boltons direct style.

Liverpool - First off, they are better than us. 3-0 was a little harsh, but at 0-0 we had the two best chances of the game. Very dissapointing capitulation though, but the Jenas miss, and liverpool goal 60 seconds later killed us.

Newcastle - Better than most give them credit for, especially on their own patch. Awful to be 2 down in 5-10 mins, but they have a good squad, so it can happen.

Man Utd - Dire second half, combative first, unlucky penalty decision. Lack of confidence was completely evident here. We shouldn't be losing by 4 to anyone, especially at home. But did they really deserve to win by this scoreline?

Everton - Another of those, it happens every season games. Still, I gotta agree we were absolute crap that day.

Fulham - Good at home, but unacceptable performance from us. Was smack bang in the middle of our awful run, so understand why it happened, think we just need to be a little more expansive on the road.

Blackburn - We got a draw still? Didnt Liverpool lose there the other week? Bare in mind their goal was a once in a lifetime spank from Tugay. I seem to remember Mido missing a very good chance or two as well.

Arsenal away - Didn't turn up in League, really really dissapointing. Again had the first big chance of the match through Malbranque though. Cup - We looked pretty poor but we restriced them quite well. Then we scored and it all went downhill.

[Ryan]

Well at least we're better than england!

How did you work that out?

[Jonesey]

Agree totally with the sentiment of your e-mail. For the first time ... ever, I think ... last Sunday I had the opportunity to go to the game but turned it down because I knew we were going to get spanked and I just couldn't justify spending £50 watching what felt was going to be a dead-cert loss.

THEN I had the chance to watch it on Sky ... and again decided to spend the afternoon helping my mum cook the Sunday lunch rather than watching what I just knew would be a humiliating afternoon of frustration.

Unfortunately we are playing with relegation form at the moment and it's up to BMJ and Chris Hughton to sort it out.

[YIDBOY]

Good read. Its sounds to me that you're in a similar situation to what Annikin Skywalker was, before he turned into Darth Vader!

I feel the same as you thou ant, but i'm definately leaning towards the dark side at present.

[Jonesey]

From what I hear from a mate of Paul Kemsley's we'd better get used to being without Ledders this season. His injury is more serious than the club is letting on (although he never said what it is exactly). This is why we bought Rocha in the transfer window. Apparently we were looking at Stam too but he made it clear he wouldn't come to us.

And anyway, sure, we're better WITH Ledley but a club like Spurs should not have to rely on one man to keep the team together.

AND I'm not convinced he's the reason we're rubbish at the moment. Poor line-up and substitution tactics ... allowing the likes of Routledge and Ziegler to go out on loan and then not replacing them with width-providing wingers ... poor supply to the forwards as a result ... poor defending down the flanks as a result ...

It's not exactly rocket-science is it.

[BringBack_leGin]

Agree totally with the sentiment of your e-mail. For the first time ... ever, I think ... last Sunday I had the opportunity to go to the game but turned it down because I knew we were going to get spanked and I just couldn't justify spending £50 watching what felt was going to be a dead-cert loss.

THEN I had the chance to watch it on Sky ... and again decided to spend the afternoon helping my mum cook the Sunday lunch rather than watching what I just knew would be a humiliating afternoon of frustration.

Unfortunately we are playing with relegation form at the moment and it's up to BMJ and Chris Hughton to sort it out.


I was there, i stayed the till the last minute of injury time as i do with every game, and a froze my bollocks off while watching the worst performance i can remember since losing 6-1 at home to Chelsea with Flo Spanking us! Call me nuts, but i like to think that staying till the last second of a game no matter how bad the perfornance is, and taking every opportunity to see the team (and i pay the extortionate west stand upper tier season ticketprices at that) regardless of cost, weather, time, date, etc, is what being Spurs through and through is all about. If you don't have the loyalty to even watch us on Sky in one of the biggest matches of the season then what right do you have to whinge about the team. Like with a marriage, with a football team you should take the bad with the good! and unlike a marriage, you should never leave, no matter how bad it gets!

[YIDBOY]

Spot on Jonesey. I'm fed up of hearing about Ledley being injured, and i'm his biggest fan. He is top quality. But our dismal form is not all down to him not being fit. There's much more to it than that and the manager has to take responsibility.

[laskoir]

Jol/Comolis transfer policy is baffling. A revolving door of full backs. Any one but a left winger getting signed and being played on the left wing. No new quality centre back to cover the obviously waning Ledley King. More over if we actually signed an international class centre back we might find he forms a relationship with Dawson and King becomes cover. Not a situation Im against considering Kings appalling fitness record. Sell Keane buy another out and out goal scorer. Job done. Buy a left winger. There are thousands of clubs accross the world all with at least 1 left winger and we go three transfer widnows without a serious attempt to sign one.
We rumble on towards the inevitable departure of Aaron Lennon and our final resting place back in square one. Every now and then a player comes along that we can build a team around. A talisman. The last one left for Arsenal. cos of our ineptitude to build a team round him. Time is running out already. All very well signing 15yrd olds and 17yr olds. No good if they get into the team when Lennon is already playing for Man u. Situation is simple. Jol has the rest fo thsi season to idenify numerosu targets taregts to solve the problems stated above. And the close season to sign them. If he doesnt he is blind to the problem everyone else can see and deserves to go. Being big, bald and having charisma doesnt win league titles.

[orkneyspur]

I was there, i stayed the till the last minute of injury time as i do with every game, and a froze my bollocks off while watching the worst performance i can remember since losing 6-1 at home to Chelsea with Flo Spanking us! Call me nuts, but i like to think that staying till the last second of a game no matter how bad the perfornance is, and taking every opportunity to see the team (and i pay the extortionate west stand upper tier season ticketprices at that) regardless of cost, weather, time, date, etc, is what being Spurs through and through is all about. If you don't have the loyalty to even watch us on Sky in one of the biggest matches of the season then what right do you have to whinge about the team. Like with a marriage, with a football team you should take the bad with the good! and unlike a marriage, you should never leave, no matter how bad it gets!

:clap: Being a fan (atic) of any club always means we stay to the end. Over the past 40 years, I've seen some shi## and still love them more each year that I get older. One day I'll no longer be around, but they will!!

[goonhater]

SCHIZOPHRENIC i totally understand what your saying its a love hate relationship with spurs at the moment. we pay loads of money to see pathetic football from a team that should be doing so much better, i dont blame jol totally but i do think he can do a lot more than he seems to be doing at the moment, i for one cant forgive him for hugging that arse---- sol when we played portsmouth and fabregas after the last game at the emirates, what on earth is he trying to prove???????? disillusioned goonhater

[Boaman]

Why don't you choose a second team to support for your darkside? someone like Chelsea, Celtic, Barca or Inter Milan then you will have 2 good sides which will make you a more rounded person rather than a mentalist.

Or just support Arsenal and you'll hate Tottenham anyway

[worcestersauce]

I can't believe we are saying that we are on relegation form.

This year 2007 we have not been beaten away in the prem we held Pompey 1-1, we were 1-1 at Fulham and 1-1 after 90 min's at emirates, we totally outplayed Newcastle and got mugged drew with the nomads at home and got poked by Utd.
I didn't mention the cup games`because they were only championship sides.

We are not at our best and I believe our confidence has been knocked, I know mine has, but let's get a grip.

Our next three games are away so it's going to be tough know but they may give us a true picture of where we are.

[spurs4europe]

Spot on Jonesey. I'm fed up of hearing about Ledley being injured, and i'm his biggest fan. He is top quality. But our dismal form is not all down to him not being fit. There's much more to it than that and the manager has to take responsibility.

what do you mean by responsibility?
do you want him to come out, like a curbishly, or a mclaren and own up to getting the tactics wrong. they are 2nd-rate managers and it didn't do them a lot of good doing that. i also think jol might actually have done that by now if he felt he was at fault, yet him not doing so thus far suggests that he doesn't consider himself to be at fault in a very significant way. do you want him to resign? now i know you've had this response a million times, but maybe it's because it is the simple truth: this is the same manager who got us to within 90 mins of champions league football last season.
every team in the league has slip ups once in a while. last season, a lot of gooners wanted wenger out. at the end of the season, they were singing his praises again cos he got them champs league and into the champs league final. the season before, everyone wrote off fergie, saying he was too old and had lost the plot...now look at where they are.
my point is, clubs fluctuate in performance, especially ones that are going through transitional phases, as we are. this club hasn't played this many games in i-don't-know-how-long, and truth be told, it looks like we're struggling from it. as i already mentioned in my above post, i don't think we have the squad yet which is able to compete to such a degree and at such a demanding level. as a result, first teamers who ought to be getting the rest the deserve are not getting it, and that WILL affect performances. just consider what jol said about cardiff and not winning until berbs came on.

my point is that maybe instead of getting on the managers back and trying to go for the jugular as soon as something doesn't go the way you want it to, be a little more patient, be understanding. we've started to turn the first team around, and our team is undoubtedly of a higher quality than it was last season - it just needs a bit of time to gel. everyone got on carrick's back in his first full season for us, yet the season after we were all salivating over his performances. the same can be said of THudd, of zokora, of all our new arrivals (and i also include JJ and ghaly in this) and i'm sure will true - jol is a good coach after all, whether we want to admit right now, or not. our next job is improving the overall level of our squad, which we have started to do, and we will reap the benefits of doing so in a couple of years when our youngsters come through (dixon, dervitte, mills, now parrett, etc.).
its a gradual process, and causing a tantrum now and protesting to get the whole set up overthrown will just set us back another few years.

i agree it would be nice to see some results now, but don't be so myopic that you fail to see the bigger picture and what our target is. show a bit of faith, not blind faith i might add, but enough to let the whole club know you're behind them. good times are ahead, and even if it means we don't realise them until next season or the following one, surely we can all wait that amount of time, because when we do get what we've all been craving for, it will be all the sweeter! COYS!

[ekki24]

Finally someone who has the same feeling i have. i really like MJ and CH and for the most part the team, there are a few exception that should go but they still there so anyway, the main reason Wenger and Ferguson have done so well for so long is there ability to change with the times and get rid of bad apples before they poisen the team and i dont knock MJ ever but i feel the tactics have no spark or positive play, we have so many chances to score and we waste them we to hurried in front of goal and we need to stop relying on one or two players to change games for us. the team has very low morale and needs a few wins to boost this. MJ needs to change it up and try getting the team to play as one and the defence needs a kick in the ass far to sloppy, we need someone who doesnt take crap and gets the boys in line and working together.

[YIDBOY]

[quote=Boaman;291686]Why don't you choose a second team to support for your darkside? someone like Chelsea, Celtic, Barca or Inter Milan then you will have 2 good sides which will make you a more rounded person rather than a mentalist.

Because i have supported Spurs for Donkeys years, through thick and thin, and i have an opinion, as you have your own opinion, that Spurs are not heading in the right direction under Jol. Spurs is in my blood as it is with all other fans but it doesn't mean that i have to be happy with everything that goes on at the club. I'm concerned, as are my other spurs pals that we are not progressing, in fact quite the opposite. In 2-1/2yrs at the club Jol has only managed to mastermind one solitary victory over the "big 4". That isn't good enough is it?? Add to that the fact that we now seem to struggle against poor teams. Also, when is he going to realise that his away system doesn't work, can he not see that we are shocking away?

[spurs4europe]

its a bit worrying about ledders right now isn't it?!?

i guess the difference between you and me though is that i don't agree with one line:

'a club like Spurs should not have to rely on one man to keep the team together'

i think king is our only world-class player (berbatov is not quite, but that's not for now), our most important player, and our club captain. i think you underestimate his role at the club. any team, especially a team such as ours, would struggle to replace such a player - the likes of terry and chelsea, ferdinand and manusa (before vidic) come to mind. we're a big club, but not that big that we have world-class, or near world-class back up, and we'll suffer for it right now.

i agree that we're going to have to get used to playing without ledley, so i don't understand why the board wouldn't shell out near on 10m for an anton ferdinand or a davies when we are in such dire need of a very good defender (with excellent prospects) and premiership experience.

from what i read in the forums, jol is extremely upset with comolli for getting zokora (i guess he just doesn't fit in with our possession style of play). he also reckons hudd is about 2 seasons off of being the level we need him to be, for which i imagine carrick is the benchmark. it seems to me he's using what he's got available, but it's not what he wants so he's doing the best he can. jol's is trying to instill a style of play into us, a culture of possession football, and i doubt he's going to change that just because of zokora who can't (who is a great athlete, but perhaps not such a great footballer...but i'm not completely decided on that), even if it is for the benfit of this season, because 1. it will set him back in his plans and 2. changing styles mid-season would be counter productive most probably.

i still maintain we need to wait, as i'm sure you can tell given my posts throughout this article, and i think we can tell that the balance is still not quite right. the only thing i'm worried about is if we replace these players again next season with ones that are more suited to the system then we might end up repeating half of this season again.

[danielneeds]

Anyone who is thinking of calling for Jol's head (even if only half of you is thinking of it) is a moron.

In his first season we had our best league finish in 16....thats 16 years!!

This season we have suffered from injuries and bedding in new players, but i think we will rally and get something out of it.

Getting rid of jol will solve nothing, yes he is imperfect tactically on occassion, but overall he is moulding the team. It will take another year and a couple more big players but he will do it. Starting all over with another manager would put us back another two or three years.

There will be tough decisons to make in the future, I believe we will have to get shot of Defoe and Keane. Top clubs don't play with these kind of limited strikers who can't do anything with their back to goal. Look at Saha, Drogba, Kuyt, Rooney, you need strikers who are quick, can play on the last man, but are also able to hold the ball up or drop deep and link play. This is probably why we are strongly linked with Bent in the Summer. A front two of Berbs and Bent would offer the team alot more options.

There is also trouble brewing with Robinson, i think Jol persevere with him until the end of the season, but I wouldnt be surprised if Alnwick starts as number one next year.

Have faith in Jol, it was never going to be plain sailing all the way.

[west indie]

in the transfer window spurs should of made an offer for joey barton, we lack a midfield terrier that will get stuck in for the team.. our midfield sits off the opposition an never seems to put them under pressure? that is where most of our problem lies for all the money spent that department is totally unbalanced, along with the left side paralysis..
i for one would of been happy to see mido go to man city in exchange for distin and barton an would of threw in gardner, staleri an murphy as part of the deal, we need a graham roberts or stevie perryman type player come the summer, our team should not rest on the shoulders of teenage lennon, we have no pattern of play, pace, width or direction when he's out the side an all that responsibillity shouldnt be placed on the kid who's learning himself, we could burn him out same goes for the thudd? i saw we bid £10m for bale but surely if we would of threw in some players plus cash barton would of gave us more drive an power in midfield now which is surely needed...... all is not doom an gloom but the likes of jenas, zokora, marlbranque an gardner have to raise their games from now to the end of the season

[Boaman]

Because i have supported Spurs for Donkeys years, through thick and thin, and i have an opinion, as you have your own opinion, that Spurs are not heading in the right direction under Jol. Spurs is in my blood as it is with all other fans but it doesn't mean that i have to be happy with everything that goes on at the club. I'm concerned, as are my other spurs pals that we are not progressing, in fact quite the opposite. In 2-1/2yrs at the club Jol has only managed to mastermind one solitary victory over the "big 4". That isn't good enough is it?? Add to that the fact that we now seem to struggle against poor teams. Also, when is he going to realise that his away system doesn't work, can he not see that we are shocking away?

I understand what it takes to support a club and I wasn't actually implying anyone should start supporting another team - My point is this is where Spurs are at the moment and we have to deal with it because sacking Jol and hating Tottenham isn't the answer (unless somebody can give me a good explanation why it is).
As a season ticket holder myself I'm far from happy with how things are currently going and I demand more from everyone at the club, like you say our away form is awful and what was a fortress last season (WHL) is now a wooden chalet. We both agree this is not good enough and not what we were expecting after last season.

However last season was good for us, we won away games weren't a push over apart from a few isolated away games, we haven't progressed from that which is disappointing. But this season we have played 12 league away games and a couple in the cup and we haven't played well in over half of them but that isn't a justified reason to sack a manager, Jol has earn't the right to be given time in this job and I'm pretty sure he will come good. Say we sack him now, who do we get? That sevilla bloke? Phil Scolari? Well none of them will leave before the end of the season and do they speak English? will they bring the immediate sucess you crave? well no one knows, we can only go on what we Spurs fans know and that is we have never benifited from sacking a manager after a run of bad results let alone midway through a season.

I know we haven't won against the big four enough, that is a shame but we aren't on their level yet, so beating them is not relevant as we have to beat the others in order to stay in and amongst the bigger clubs. We have to become a top 6 side before we become a top 4 side.

All I want is Spurs fans who are saying sack Jol to actually think about it logistically, without the red mist and see where they end up. Do you think Levy & Commoli are thinking we should get rid of Jol? It's very unlikely as they have backed him with big signings and we're in 3 of 4 competitions after losing in the SF to a great young, fresh team.

[worcestersauce]

Joet Barton is just the name at the moment, he's thought if as the best midfielder at an average team and so people judge him differently to how they would if he played for a top team.
He gets stuck in and doesn't give up, unless he couldn't be arsed and by that I mean he's a moody bugger and will cause problems. Now maybe that can be tolerated in a Great player (roy keane for example) but not him, I just don't rate him.

[YIDBOY]

I understand what it takes to support a club and I wasn't actually implying anyone should start supporting another team - My point is this is where Spurs are at the moment and we have to deal with it because sacking Jol and hating Tottenham isn't the answer (unless somebody can give me a good explanation why it is).
As a season ticket holder myself I'm far from happy with how things are currently going and I demand more from everyone at the club, like you say our away form is awful and what was a fortress last season (WHL) is now a wooden chalet. We both agree this is not good enough and not what we were expecting after last season.

However last season was good for us, we won away games weren't a push over apart from a few isolated away games, we haven't progressed from that which is disappointing. But this season we have played 12 league away games and a couple in the cup and we haven't played well in over half of them but that isn't a justified reason to sack a manager, Jol has earn't the right to be given time in this job and I'm pretty sure he will come good. Say we sack him now, who do we get? That sevilla bloke? Phil Scolari? Well none of them will leave before the end of the season and do they speak English? will they bring the immediate sucess you crave? well no one knows, we can only go on what we Spurs fans know and that is we have never benifited from sacking a manager after a run of bad results let alone midway through a season.

I know we haven't won against the big four enough, that is a shame but we aren't on their level yet, so beating them is not relevant as we have to beat the others in order to stay in and amongst the bigger clubs. We have to become a top 6 side before we become a top 4 side.

All I want is Spurs fans who are saying sack Jol to actually think about it logistically, without the red mist and see where they end up. Do you think Levy & Commoli are thinking we should get rid of Jol? It's very unlikely as they have backed him with big signings and we're in 3 of 4 competitions after losing in the SF to a great young, fresh team.

I understand what you are saying. I dont think we should sack him now, that would not do us any favours at all for the rest of this season. As you say, logistically it would be a nightmare. On the other hand, if the season peters out like i suspect it will and we end up mid table and trophy-less then i think that the board will have plenty of amunition to fire him. I know that i cant see into the future but i really dont believe that Jol has the ability to push us on. Also, for me, its the style of our football that dissapoints me the most. Jol's way is not the Spurs way. Yes i know that we haven't played the Spurs way for along time but it doesn't mean that we should not strive for it. I want to see Spurs play with panache, and flair. I dont want to see them going away to shit teams and defending, i believe that Spurs should try to win every game.

[paxton_soul]

Joet Barton is just the name at the moment, he's thought if as the best midfielder at an average team and so people judge him differently to how they would if he played for a top team.
He gets stuck in and doesn't give up, unless he couldn't be arsed and by that I mean he's a moody bugger and will cause problems. Now maybe that can be tolerated in a Great player (roy keane for example) but not him, I just don't rate him.

The only reason people like Joey Barton is that he said it like it is in a media interview. If that is how we are picking our midfielders - then maybe we should persuade Eamonn Dumphy out of retirement...

[Shirtfront]

its a bit worrying about ledders right now isn't it?!?

i guess the difference between you and me though is that i don't agree with one line:

'a club like Spurs should not have to rely on one man to keep the team together'

i think king is our only world-class player (berbatov is not quite, but that's not for now), our most important player, and our club captain. i think you underestimate his role at the club. any team, especially a team such as ours, would struggle to replace such a player - the likes of terry and chelsea, ferdinand and manusa (before vidic) come to mind. we're a big club, but not that big that we have world-class, or near world-class back up, and we'll suffer for it right now.

i agree that we're going to have to get used to playing without ledley, so i don't understand why the board wouldn't shell out near on 10m for an anton ferdinand or a davies when we are in such dire need of a very good defender (with excellent prospects) and premiership experience.

from what i read in the forums, jol is extremely upset with comolli for getting zokora (i guess he just doesn't fit in with our possession style of play). he also reckons hudd is about 2 seasons off of being the level we need him to be, for which i imagine carrick is the benchmark. it seems to me he's using what he's got available, but it's not what he wants so he's doing the best he can. jol's is trying to instill a style of play into us, a culture of possession football, and i doubt he's going to change that just because of zokora who can't (who is a great athlete, but perhaps not such a great footballer...but i'm not completely decided on that), even if it is for the benfit of this season, because 1. it will set him back in his plans and 2. changing styles mid-season would be counter productive most probably.

i still maintain we need to wait, as i'm sure you can tell given my posts throughout this article, and i think we can tell that the balance is still not quite right. the only thing i'm worried about is if we replace these players again next season with ones that are more suited to the system then we might end up repeating half of this season again.

I agree with most of what you say.....except the suggestion that £10m on Anton Ferdinand would be money well spent. He is a liability. If he wasn't his brother's brother you would never have heard of him. My mate who's WHam through and through nearly fell off his chair laughing when were rumoured to have offerred £4m for him. He wanted to bite our hand off.

[Shirtfront]

From what I hear from a mate of Paul Kemsley's we'd better get used to being without Ledders this season. His injury is more serious than the club is letting on (although he never said what it is exactly). This is why we bought Rocha in the transfer window. Apparently we were looking at Stam too but he made it clear he wouldn't come to us.

And anyway, sure, we're better WITH Ledley but a club like Spurs should not have to rely on one man to keep the team together.

AND I'm not convinced he's the reason we're rubbish at the moment. Poor line-up and substitution tactics ... allowing the likes of Routledge and Ziegler to go out on loan and then not replacing them with width-providing wingers ... poor supply to the forwards as a result ... poor defending down the flanks as a result ...

It's not exactly rocket-science is it.

I reckon it's harder the rocket-science, to be honest. For example, you seem to suggest that we just had to hang on to Routledge and Ziegler and our problem on the flanks would be solved (or, to be fair to you, at least improved). But here are a few factors for the rocket science equation:

1. If we had have kept Routledge we would have not got Malbranque. His loan was key to that deal.

2. If we had have kept Routledge he would have put in a transfer request by now. Lennon has missed a few matches, but not enough to give Routledge the time he wants on the pitch.

3. If we had have kept Routledge we would have no-one to play on the left except Ziegler. Which brings me to....

4. Ziegler is just not as good as everyone seems to think. Yes, he showed promise, but since then he has been kept out of Wigan, Hamburg and our Andy Reid on the left sides. Come on, there must be a reason.

[danielneeds]

King being out is only part of the reason why the defence is leaky this season. We lack a really good holding player infront of the back four. Zokora is not that man.

[Jonesey]

I agree with you on Ziegler and Routledge ... but at least they would have given us options.

And ultimately if we're not going to play them - or indeed Routledge WAS crucial to the Malbranque deal - why not just sell them and put the cash towards a left-sided midfielder we WILL play?

Like I said, it's not rocket-science.

[muffwah]

I cannot believe the people on this site giving Zokora crap. He was doing a perfectly good job earlier in the season with Jenas in front of him and it has become clear that he and Huddlestone cannot function together in central midfield, but this is caused more by Huddlestone's lack of movement up and down the pitch. It is no coincidence that when Huddlestone was making us unbeatable it was against poor opposition, I am yet to see a game where he plays against a top 6 side and we have had any control over the midfield. The guy just isn't ready yet.

[Jonesey]

Well sorry, but you're a better man - and fan - than I. Just watching the goal alerts come through on Sky Sports news made my stomach churn. But at least I knew I made the right decision not to waste £50 on the day.

Also, I think perhaps you're missing the point; what I'm trying to say is, I regard myself as a pretty good supporter of the club - maybe not as die hard as some of you lot admittedly. But after the last two Arsenal performances I just couldn't take the humiliation of seeing us lose by my predicted scoreline (0-3 incidentally). I was trying to illustrate the depression I feel about us at the moment.

And to feel this depressed about it - it's bringing me down more than most things at the moment - I think that probably shows I have loyalty.

[striebs]

Supporting Spurs has been a love hate relationship for me for about 10 years .

Sometimes I hope they get beaten humiliatingly if they are not trying properly .


This is not a result of bad results over the last 2 months but the decline which took place from the early 90's till about 2005 .

Don't blame yourself , we've stomached a lot and been treated abysmally by the PLC .

The slide has been arrested , keep your fingers off the panic button .

[macspurs]

I agree it has not been nice to watch recently, but this team under Jol has still filled me full of Spursey pride like no Spurs team of the 90's did under anyone. I think we have to leave Jol and the boys to get on with it. They aren't daft and know what there is to do. Last 16 of the Uefa cup. When did that last happen?

I know it has been said before but look at how long Fergie got to steady ManUre before their great run of success.

Some of the tactical choices bug the wotnot out of me, but I have to keep the faith.

[gusrowe]

Look on the bright side....you are never alone with Schizophrenia!!!

[davidmatzdorf]

It's nothing to do with football, but someone ought to say it.

Schizophrenia has nothing at all to do with "split personality". Nothing even remotely to do with it.

It's a confusion with the phrase "schizoid personality", which is completely different.

Schizophrenia is a very common and debilitating mental illness, characterised by auditory hallucinations, confusion between fantasy and reality and often by obsessive or paranoid behaviour ... but not by a split personality.

[steve]

You're lucky I'm Quadrophenic..........

[Jonesey]

It's nothing to do with football, but someone ought to say it.

Schizophrenia has nothing at all to do with "split personality". Nothing even remotely to do with it.

It's a confusion with the phrase "schizoid personality", which is completely different.


Schizophrenia is a very common and debilitating mental illness, characterised by auditory hallucinations, confusion between fantasy and reality and often by obsessive or paranoid behaviour ... but not by a split personality.

I do NOT believe you actually felt the need to type this. Do you HAVE a sense of humour?

In fact, one quick question ... were you bullied at school?

And as for "Schizophrenia is a very common and debilitating mental illness, characterised by auditory hallucinations, confusion between fantasy and reality and often by obsessive or paranoid behaviour ..."

I t's JUST like supporting Spurs then!:shifty:

[davidmatzdorf]

I do NOT believe you actually felt the need to type this.

It was out of a responsibility to someone specific from my past.

Do you HAVE a sense of humour?

Read my posts. Then you'll realise what a silly question that is.

In fact, one quick question ... were you bullied at school?

Briefly. I survived. Why is it relevant, or are you just being rude?

And as for "Schizophrenia is a very common and debilitating mental illness, characterised by auditory hallucinations, confusion between fantasy and reality and often by obsessive or paranoid behaviour ..."

It's JUST like supporting Spurs then!:shifty:

And that's the only bit of your post that makes sense... :roll: :clap: :razz: :wink: :twisted:

[anthony kelly]

Anyone who is thinking of calling for Jol's head (even if only half of you is thinking of it) is a moron.

In his first season we had our best league finish in 16....thats 16 years!!

This season we have suffered from injuries and bedding in new players, but i think we will rally and get something out of it.

Getting rid of jol will solve nothing, yes he is imperfect tactically on occassion, but overall he is moulding the team. It will take another year and a couple more big players but he will do it. Starting all over with another manager would put us back another two or three years.

There will be tough decisons to make in the future, I believe we will have to get shot of Defoe and Keane. Top clubs don't play with these kind of limited strikers who can't do anything with their back to goal. Look at Saha, Drogba, Kuyt, Rooney, you need strikers who are quick, can play on the last man, but are also able to hold the ball up or drop deep and link play. This is probably why we are strongly linked with Bent in the Summer. A front two of Berbs and Bent would offer the team alot more options.

There is also trouble brewing with Robinson, i think Jol persevere with him until the end of the season, but I wouldnt be surprised if Alnwick starts as number one next year.

Have faith in Jol, it was never going to be plain sailing all the way.
Believe me I am no moron, and maybe you need to take the rose tinted shades off ! I want MJ to suceed ! .
How refreshing when he came to spurs a manager who was honest and frank in interviews, but lately all I hear is waffle .
I do not want another manager again with all the disruption that goes with it, but I am bitterly disappointed with some /most of our lacklustre performances this season.
How many managers would put up with his team not turning up at the emirates in a local derby, or their team being spanked 4-0 at home , I want a reaction from the team and if this doesn,t happen I want to hear some harsh words from the big man , at least showing that it ####ING HURTS TO BE BEATEN ! The blood is starting to boil , Martin calm me down, get the team going again otherwise the jury,s out !

[anthony kelly]

I understand what you are saying. I dont think we should sack him now, that would not do us any favours at all for the rest of this season. As you say, logistically it would be a nightmare. On the other hand, if the season peters out like i suspect it will and we end up mid table and trophy-less then i think that the board will have plenty of amunition to fire him. I know that i cant see into the future but i really dont believe that Jol has the ability to push us on. Also, for me, its the style of our football that dissapoints me the most. Jol's way is not the Spurs way. Yes i know that we haven't played the Spurs way for along time but it doesn't mean that we should not strive for it. I want to see Spurs play with panache, and flair. I dont want to see them going away to shit teams and defending, i believe that Spurs should try to win every game.
Completely agree yidboy , that we should try to win the game not let it unfold before us , why not try practising what our motto preaches " TO DARE IS TO DO "

[YIDBOY]

Completely agree yidboy , that we should try to win the game not let it unfold before us , why not try practising what our motto preaches " TO DARE IS TO DO "

Exactly, to dare is to do. When i think about our history and tradition it makes me extremely proud. The great players, the great matches, the glory etc. I think a lot of matches/performances over the last couple of years have been instantly forgetable.

[danielneeds]

Believe me I am no moron, and maybe you need to take the rose tinted shades off ! I want MJ to suceed ! .
How refreshing when he came to spurs a manager who was honest and frank in interviews, but lately all I hear is waffle .
I do not want another manager again with all the disruption that goes with it, but I am bitterly disappointed with some /most of our lacklustre performances this season.
How many managers would put up with his team not turning up at the emirates in a local derby, or their team being spanked 4-0 at home , I want a reaction from the team and if this doesn,t happen I want to hear some harsh words from the big man , at least showing that it ####ING HURTS TO BE BEATEN ! The blood is starting to boil , Martin calm me down, get the team going again otherwise the jury,s out !

Of course it hurts to be beaten, but Martin Jol ranting and raving at what is essentially a young team when they got beat is not going to help anything. Lock at Wenger and Ferguson over the last couple of years where both have been develpoing new teams and the results have been below both clubs usual standards, they both supported the young players and inisisted they had belief in their teams.

There is not panacea to the years of underachievement and culture of mediocracy that engulfed the club during the late nineties. We overachieved last season and the legs are struggling with the number of games we have played this season, this could be seen in the second halves against arsenal and united recently.

Jol know what is going and its clear he holds the respect of the players, read the article translated from Dutch on these boards last week and he says its frustrating that he has no leader on the pitch at the moment who will execute his tactics, that he got frustrated when Defoe and Keane were getting long kicks from Robinson against arsenal. He will find that leadership, maybe from Dawson as he matures into our Terry.

I really believe that we should have faith and support Jol as he develops the team and club. Look what continuity does; Alardyce at Bolton, Fergie, look at the mess Charlton are in now. We have chopped and changed our managers searching for a cure for far too long and all it has got us is a solitary League cup win with a gooner at the helm.

[Shirtfront]

I agree with you on Ziegler and Routledge ... but at least they would have given us options.

And ultimately if we're not going to play them - or indeed Routledge WAS crucial to the Malbranque deal - why not just sell them and put the cash towards a left-sided midfielder we WILL play?

Like I said, it's not rocket-science.

But like I said, it's not that simple either. It is not a lack of money that has stopped us buying a left winger; it's a lack of requisite quality (we offered £12m for Downing ffs). Or to put it another way, anyone we want to prize away who is good enough will cost so much that selling Ziegler and even Routledge won't make that much difference to our resources. Besides, we did try and sell Routledge but Fulham wouldn't cough up. No point selling him for a pittance, as we don't need the money that badly.

It may not be rocket science, but it is easier said than done.

[Geez]

I've removed your posts

If you want to carry on your playground name calling fight, do it in private or even better just ignore each other

If one of you continues to abuse the other in public, you'll receive a 24 hour matchday ban

[anthony kelly]

Of course it hurts to be beaten, but Martin Jol ranting and raving at what is essentially a young team when they got beat is not going to help anything. Lock at Wenger and Ferguson over the last couple of years where both have been develpoing new teams and the results have been below both clubs usual standards, they both supported the young players and inisisted they had belief in their teams.

There is not panacea to the years of underachievement and culture of mediocracy that engulfed the club during the late nineties. We overachieved last season and the legs are struggling with the number of games we have played this season, this could be seen in the second halves against arsenal and united recently.

Jol know what is going and its clear he holds the respect of the players, read the article translated from Dutch on these boards last week and he says its frustrating that he has no leader on the pitch at the moment who will execute his tactics, that he got frustrated when Defoe and Keane were getting long kicks from Robinson against arsenal. He will find that leadership, maybe from Dawson as he matures into our Terry.

I really believe that we should have faith and support Jol as he develops the team and club. Look what continuity does; Alardyce at Bolton, Fergie, look at the mess Charlton are in now. We have chopped and changed our managers searching for a cure for far too long and all it has got us is a solitary League cup win with a gooner at the helm.
Fair point Danielneeds, im starting to calm down already , it must be the thought of spurs beating the blades sat. ( 3-1 ) COYS.