Cometh the Moment, Cometh the Man...

[Chimbo!]

Whilst many of us are distracted by the dreary and abject displays, the pathetic excuses and persistent false hope we forget that our club has come to a crucial moment in its attempt to revive the glory, glory era.

The path to success is never a smooth one, just ask Alex Ferguson. Before Manchester United's complete dominance in English football during the 1990s Ferguson was one game away from the sack in 1989 when had he lost in the FA Cup 3rd Round the future of Manchester United would have been very different. They were in the relegation zone at the time but they surged up the table to 11th that season and won the FA Cup. You might be wondering what the point of the story is but even the best do not achieve what they set out to do straight away, it takes years of dedication and vision and there are invaraibly hiccups along the way.

I can not understand our bombardment of criticism at Martin Jol when he has transformed our club from mediocrity to an ambitious and demanding football club. Two years ago we would have been happy wiht a mid-table position and a couple of good cup runs. Now we boo the team if that is all we achieve. We finished 14th almost 3 seasons ago and had an ageing squad of average foreigners. Our squad now boasts 6 England internationals and some of the brightest English talent in the country. When was the last time we had players of the calibre of Lennon, King, Dawson and Defoe in the same team. The transformation undertaken by Jol is a miracle and we should support him through thick and thin.

No one criticises Keith Burkinshaw for some disappointing league positions when he had the likes of Hoddle, Ardiles, Roberts and Villa in his side. Even the great Bill Nicholson did not consistenly succeed in the league. I feel a sense of perspective is needed; we have to wait and see. The mark of a great man is when he can face adversity and defeat it. Martin Jol is the man to do that; he will achieve success with us. Great managers build their success on the foundations of past failures; we are a young side that will learn from its mistakes and become a force in English football.

A bit of optimism is all us fans need to have.

[ridouche]

"I can not understand our bombardment of criticism at Martin Jol"

No, obviously not. People in this site are all stupid, ignorant, impatient and lack vision!

At least they are hypothesising the obvious, which you are denying, and please stop to compare us with manure in the 90’s. Every club that sacked their manager tried this rule; the reality is that it is an exception. The exception is embedded in the character of the manager, which we have only learned when manure got to where they are.

Asking questions and trying to answer them is a virtue that is not given to everyone, because it requires too much effort which explains your denial. My advice is to read Explanations, Accounts, and Illusions: A Critical Analysis by John McClure.

[tomo]

Commoli buys the players. Has he done a good job? Doesn't look like it. I still can't believe that after all the money we've spent we still look mid-table. It's almost UNBELIEVEABLE.

[roguepsi]

If we found ourselves in this position in a years time, I would understand the call for Jol to go but at the moment, it is ludicrous. This has, so far, been the only real test of our squad and its safe to say that we haven't flounced with flying colours. Now Jol has to work with the squad to improve them, both with introducing higher quality playing staff and addressing the lack of balance within the team. If he does that and we still find ourselves off the pace, question his position then. Now is not the time.

[DCSPUR]

"Look at all the money we have spent" - illustrates the lack of true knowledge on the part of many critics. We have spent 25.3 million net (includes Frank Arnsen money at 10 million but NOT the 15 million pounds share money) since, and including, buying Defoe and Brown - that isn't alot of money.

[tomo]

"Look at all the money we have spent" - illustrates the lack of true knowledge on the part of many critics. We have spent 25.3 million net (includes Frank Arnsen money at 10 million but NOT the 15 million pounds share money) since, and including, buying Defoe and Brown - that isn't alot of money.

True knowledge..............cheeky fucker :wink:

Let me put it another way then. We have been one of the major players in the transfer market for a number of years. A few summers ago we were only second behind Chelsea in the money spent by Prem Clubs during the window.

Not many teams casually spend 10 mill plus on a striker these days. We did and he can't seem to play away from home.........................cue the abuse by the Berbatov fan club :grin:.......................I like Berba, great player but truly fuckin shite away from WHL.

[smashing]

Loved your article Chimbo.....well done mate, some sanity at last!

[Wiener]

The mark of a great man is when he can face adversity and defeat it. Martin Jol is the man to do that; he will achieve success with us. Great managers build their success on the foundations of past failures; we are a young side that will learn from its mistakes and become a force in English football.

A bit of optimism is all us fans need to have.

I wholeheartedly agree and I suspect so do the vast majority of spurs fans.

I would however argue that optimism is not needed. It will only make the journey more enjoyable. Even without it, any man or woman with any sense and perspective can see that we are going in the right direction.

In the meantime we will have to endure and humour the mostly idiotic and illiterate posts of those fellow spurs fans who revel in gloom and doom.

COYS

[tomo]

I wholeheartedly agree and I suspect so do the vast majority of spurs fans.

I would however argue that optimism is not needed. It will only make the journey more enjoyable. Even without it, any man or woman with any sense and perspective can see that we are going in the right direction.

In the meantime we will have to endure and humour the mostly idiotic and illiterate posts of those fellow spurs fans who revel in gloom and doom.

COYS


Why are you named after a small cock? :grin:

[Wiener]

"I can not understand our bombardment of criticism at Martin Jol"

No, obviously not. People in this site are all stupid, ignorant, impatient and lack vision!

At least they are hypothesising the obvious, which you are denying, and please stop to compare us with manure in the 90’s. Every club that sacked their manager tried this rule; the reality is that it is an exception. The exception is embedded in the character of the manager, which we have only learned when manure got to where they are.

Asking questions and trying to answer them is a virtue that is not given to everyone, because it requires too much effort which explains your denial. My advice is to read Explanations, Accounts, and Illusions: A Critical Analysis by John McClure.

Gibberish!

[Wiener]

Why are you named after a small cock? :grin:

In my native language it means Viennese.

[ridouche]

For you, I suggest you read "Little Lost Cowboy" by Simon Puttock and Caroline Jayne.

[Kingstheman]

More support for our boys - less of this "half-hearted-oh-no-we-have-gone-one-nil-down-lets-all-go-and-try-to-hang-someone" support.

[devonte01]

I wholeheartedly agree and I suspect so do the vast majority of spurs fans.

I would however argue that optimism is not needed. It will only make the journey more enjoyable. Even without it, any man or woman with any sense and perspective can see that we are going in the right direction.

In the meantime we will have to endure and humour the mostly idiotic and illiterate posts of those fellow spurs fans who revel in gloom and doom.

COYS


"...gloom and doom..." and you have the cheek to call fellow fans "illiterate". Mr educated fan, it should be "...doom and gloom..."

Those so called "...idiotic and illiterate..." fans are entitled to their views

[markspurs]

These are the times when we have to get behind our team and let them know that we still have full confidence in them!

[theMAXILOPEZpsycho]

I thought the article was going to be about me!!!

Anyway, though I personnaly would like to see jol given longer, the only pro jol arguments you've really given are a recruitment policy that he has little to do with. So the idea that we'd "be back to square 1 if jol was axed" , back to the days of sicknotes and overpaid karloskickaballs is by no means inherently true; as long as the levy-pleat installed recruitment policy remains; indeed look at the youngsters we've just snapped up in taraabalt and the QPR chap.

And saying fergie was given time so every failing manager should be given time isn't even worth laughing at as an argument...god how many year have we lost with this "next season" "5 year plan" horseshizen???????????

[ravo]

Well said. We need time and a couple of good midfield / defensive buys.

[davidmatzdorf]

No, obviously not. People in this site are all stupid, ignorant, impatient and lack vision!

At least they are hypothesising the obvious...

My advice is to read Explanations, Accounts, and Illusions: A Critical Analysis by John McClure.

Does anyone have the slightest idea what this post is about? I reckon I'm pretty literate, but I can't make any sense of it.

[Sanj]

good article.
If felow fans could put things in perspective and see how far the club and TEAM have progressed in the last 5 years (after 20 years of hoping the next season will be better).
We have struggled with injuries this year, which the top clubs have not coped well with in recent years (Chelsea/ terry this season, united/ scholes last season etc..). we have missed our skipper, but also a leader in the centre of the park. the injuries/ lack of continuity have played a major part in the midfield not shaping up and developing as we would wish.

For those of you asking for Jol's head - who would you bring in? If any of you actually thought that we would be pushing into the top 4 this season, then i can understand your disapointment but also think that it was foolish to believe we would emulate last season. I would'e hoped for top 6 ,but injuries and nuber of games have hampered us. however we have management and players who can and will learn from this next season if they are given the opportunity,

Do you really think that we would move forward? if anything i think we'd be more likely to lose our top players.

[AlexBenjamin]

Great post.

Things are not going great at the moment. In fact, things are going pretty badly.

I think there are some crucial things that need to be focused on at this time. Martin Jol is a yid through and through. He catagorically turned down the opportunity to coach the top team in Holland to stay with us, and in every interview I've read with him where the subject has come up, he has made it clear how deeply he wants to acheive success with Tottenham. People bring up this apparant tactical naivety that Jol has - but his background in Holland surely must be evidence enough that he knows what he's doing...It seems to me at the moment, it is simply a matter of our team being struck by crucial injuries and lack of experience.

Behind Jol is our Chairman, Mr Levy - who not only has given us evidence over and over that he wants to make spurs one of the top teams in the country, but is also a life-long fan.

With the additions of people like Moniz and Commoli, the guy from the Olympic bid commitee (can't remember his name right now) etc..let alone the great additions to the squad, clearly the club is moving in a great direction, and has done this in a very short space of time.

I can only see things getting better and better for us - there are clearly a few gaps in the squad, but I'm sure they will be filled in the next season or 2 - bedding in with the extremely young squad we already have, that, given a couple of years of maturity and experience should no doubt give any team in the country a run for its money.

Come. On. You. Spurs.

I will support them all my life through thick and thin, win, lose or draw.

[royboy]

i understand everyone knocking the comparisons with man u, and i agree that it is relatively pointless on the whole to do so, but there is one thing that i feel is relevant to us. man u did not "click" as a unit until the arrival of cantona. they were a talented bunch (most of whom were young), who were capable of good football, but just lacked a little something. i just feel that if we could get a hard nosed captain, then that will add a bit of spine to our youngsters. i just feel that we are directionless at times and need someone to stand up and make everyone else stand up with them.

[addyben]

There are some very bizarre posts in this thread......This general debate of "should he stay or should he go" is really pointless. He will be staying until the end of the season at the very least, and to remove him then would be very shortsighted. We have to make do with what we have - JOl is more tactically aware than anyone on this site (unless fergie or whinger are sneaking a cheeky peak) so the advice offered and speculated on is neither here nor there. I suggest we discuss the players, as opposed to the manager, and the possibilities against Fulham on Sunday. Spurs fans are already known as being entirely fickle and quick to knock anything and everyone when things are not going their way. Lets not add fuel to the fire. This weekend is huge.....every fan at Craven Cottage needs to be in full voice and behind the team and Jol - equally everyone listening/watching on tv needs to be sending postive vibes through the airwaves! I am saying 2-0 to the lillywhites.

[Wiener]

"...gloom and doom..." and you have the cheek to call fellow fans "illiterate". Mr educated fan, it should be "...doom and gloom..."

The word anal springs to mind. "gloom and doom" or "doom and gloom"? I think my intended meaning is pretty clear.

Those so called "...idiotic and illiterate..." fans are entitled to their views

I agree.

[masterblaster80]

2 years ago - who is Jol?
1 year ago - Jol is a good manager
6 month ago - best manager since Venables/Burkinshaw etc.
NOW - Jol is tactically inept and has to go!

fickle? surely not!

I'm sticking to the man for the next two years, so preach your doom and gloom, it aint working on me!

IN JOL I TRUST!


EDIT: Good article BTW, keep the faith mate! :wink:

[davidmatzdorf]

Those so called "...idiotic and illiterate..." fans are entitled to their views

Here we go again with the "entitled to their views" - stating the obvious and arguing with a point that has not been made.

The unarguable fact that they are entitled to their views does not make one bit of difference to whether or not their views are "idiotic and illiterate".

So why do people just keep on posting this? I think I've seen it 10-20 times over the past couple of months, except that usually it's "entitled to their opinions". No one ever says otherwise. So what does it add to the discussion?

[vietnam1973]

GIVE THE MAN TIME FOR FUCKS SAKE WHATS MATTER WITH EVERYONE!
yeah not winnings killing me aswell but jesus hes only been in the job for less than 2 full seasons, lets just see what happens, all you jol outers are fuckin unbeleivable, you still gonna want him out if we win the uefa cup.......no i bet you all shut up then!

[bigspurs]

If the manager can't pick the best side (Tanio FFS), can't bring in at least one left winger in two seasons, can't do the bleedin obvious (bring back Routlege), and can't even motivate his team to beat shite like Sheff Utd, then we are no better off than we were before. Last season looks like being a one off. Hows that for optimism!

[vietnam1973]

nah were no better off are we no we havent got one of the best english prospects (lennon) a fantastically skillful forward (berbatov) a def which most prem teams would want (king) the england no1 (robinson) a great finisher (defoe) not to mention hudd, dawson chimbonda...solid players,
were so low in confidence it happens to most teams come on get real would you rather still have sicknote, vega, shite like saaib, tramezzani, berti, acimovic????????

[vietnam1973]

sullivan

tarricco perry doherty thatcher

etherington clemence freund leonardsen

Armstrong iversen


mmmm and were not better off?

[se26spurs]

If BMJ himself says todays squad is better than last year, why cant he get it to perform ? If Warnock had the Spurs squad and Jol had the Sheff Utd squad, do you think Warnock would be bleating this morning about the 'fine line' between success and failure ? After 30 months and god knows how many players brought to the club it is a disgrcae to be where we are in the table. Get real ! Wake up ! Warnock or Jewell or Allardyce or O'neill or Coppell or half a dozen other managers would crawl over broken glass to have the money, the opportunities and the squad that Spurs currently have. Or........are the players crap, the squad crap and BMJ is doing a spiffing job with a really crap Club ? You decide .

[Wiener]

If the manager can't pick the best side (Tanio FFS),

Tainio is a good player, who played an important role in our good finish last season. Personally I thought Jol chose the right team against Sheffield United.

can't bring in at least one left winger in two seasons,

I think the so-called left-wing problem is a bit of an irrelevance. That aside, our club has been trying to bring in a quality left-winger. There aren't that many about, and those that exist don't want to, or cannot come.

can't do the bleedin obvious (bring back Routlege),

Not obvious to me. I am not sure what he would bring us right now, that we don't already have.

and can't even motivate his team to beat shite like Sheff Utd,

Sheffield United at home have had some good results against good teams. I wasn't there and I haven't seen the highlights, but by all accounts we were a little unlucky to come away with nothing. Obviously it wasn't a good performance by us, but on another day we might have won.

then we are no better off than we were before. Last season looks like being a one off.

Best bunch of players we have had for over 10 years.
Well run and profitable club with a clear and sensible vision.
A manager who understands the culture and history of the club.

I think as fans we have more to look forward to than almost any other set of supporters out there.

[JuanRebelde]

2 years ago - who is Jol?
1 year ago - Jol is a good manager
6 month ago - best manager since Venables/Burkinshaw etc.
NOW - Jol is tactically inept and has to go!

fickle? surely not!

I'm sticking to the man for the next two years, so preach your doom and gloom, it aint working on me!

IN JOL I TRUST!


EDIT: Good article BTW, keep the faith mate! :wink:


Spot on and probably the best description of some of the fools who come on this site to post the nonsense they do about getting BMJ out. Whilst we are not building Rome again, we certainly are involved in a project that lasts more than a day.... more like years.

I believe that football is a game of opinions to use a cliche but the issue with the BMJ out crowd is that is revolves around one issue and that is the balance between outlay over the last 2-3 years and results over the last 5-6 months . So let's look at this a bit closer.

Firstly, who's money is it and is it affordable to the club? Well the answer is not ours and frankly yes it is clearly affordable. THFC is not Leeds united. Indeed, I suspect if we sold our young prosepcts now who form part of the expenditure we'd more than break even. I give you a Lennon versus SWP scenario where I doubt many would now say that our lad is behind the Chelski one in terms of effectiveness / value these days. So, return on investment in the financial sense is clearly one well addressed by the group that INCLUDES BMJ when signing are made.

So, it's results that are the issue. Well really the criticism is of our league results as we are still doing well in two cups having beaten some of the best teams in the UEFA cup home and away. We have also progressed nicely in the FA cup but to answer the absurd criticism of some on here, you can only beat who are put before you even if it is Southend.

The League cup exit was amongst many somewhat expected given our recent record against our neighbours, the real quality of their side (eg 6.3 versus Liverpool and a LC semi-final the year before), the fact that their side includes some of the best young players around anywhere and also the fact that their team has been together as a unit a lot longer than ours as it progresses through the ranks at our neighbours. Only an idiot would discount any of that.

So, league results it is. Well, BMJ is the man that helped us over-achieved to get us to fifth last season. Firstly if you can over-achieve over 38 games then it clearly isn't over-achievement instead something must have been done right and done right on a regular basis. This would included choice of TACTICS, TEAM, SUBSTITUTIONS ,TRAINING AND MAN-MANAGEMENT. These are things that managers do and that will include our man. So fluke it wasn't. Infact some point to a poor season by the goons as being why we nearly got 4th spot. Well the reply is simple, Everton qualified for CL in 4th with less point than we achieved last season yet we missed out. So if we then say that if we didn't over achieve last year then we are doing abysmally this season we can also answer that.

Firstly, Carrick, his influence in a key area of the team and for that matter on our style of play. This was a FORCED sale and one that has affected us and for that matter Manure too. We are no longer capable of holding possession and building from the back like last season but curiously Manure are doing this with great effect. Coincidence?.....eh no. We are having to develop a new way of playing with the players we have. many of these are young / new to English football.

Our results have been disappointing in the league on various occasions and indeed we are in the middle of a poor run. However, there are tow types of poor -run.

The first is where you get relegated eg like West Ham this season (I hope) and the other where the team comes out of it having changed its style and been fortified by the set-backs of previous weeks. We are in the middle of the second type of run. Strangely, and I suspect oddly forgotten by those who know little about Spurs but are the first to slag of BMJ and co, we went through a similar poor run which almost equalled out record when he took over. This included some really dire results.

Yet, after that run we changed as a side from the negative rubbish that Santini was getting us to play and we then moved up the table and almost qualified for Europe.

In my time as a Spurs fan (35 years) the best manager is still Burkinshaw. Here is a man that inspite of how we remember him was criticised heavily for his part in our RELEGATION as he was obviously implicated as both coach (to Neal) and then as Manager. BMJ will not get us relegated.

Then in the old 2nd Div we were drawing 0.0 to rubbish like Mansfield at home or getting hammered by the likes of Charlton in the old second div. Still we presisted with our man. Following a fairly lucky promotion (on goal dfference) we then struggled in the league for a few years and a team including Ardiles, Villa, Hoddle and co got hammered 7.0 at Anfield, 5.0 at Home to the Goons and had a number of other real hammerings on the way until we learnt as a team what was required and success came.

His success was allowed only because fools like the idiots who come on here that evidently have never been near the business end of a professional football club were ignored and this is what we should do now. History tells us this and this is our history and not that of Ferguson for example.

My advice to those in the BMJ out crowd is to listen and learn from those who post positive opinons on here because they are clearly better informed and have the capacity to see past a set of negative results in a competition that we haven't even won for 45 years or so.

I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.

[JonnySpurs]

2 years ago - who is Jol?
1 year ago - Jol is a good manager
6 month ago - best manager since Venables/Burkinshaw etc.
NOW - Jol is tactically inept and has to go!

fickle? surely not!

I'm sticking to the man for the next two years, so preach your doom and gloom, it aint working on me!

IN JOL I TRUST!


EDIT: Good article BTW, keep the faith mate! :wink:

EXACTLY!

Need anyone say much more......well yes, which is why I'm gonna posting my own article today at some point.

[vietnam1973]

juanrebelde....two words..........AMEN BROTHER!

[easiman]

I believe that football is a game of opinions to use a cliche but the issue with the BMJ out crowd is that is revolves around one issue and that is the balance between outlay over the last 2-3 years and results over the last 5-6 months . So let's look at this a bit closer.

Firstly, who's money is it and is it affordable to the club? Well the answer is not ours and frankly yes it is clearly affordable. THFC is not Leeds united. Indeed, I suspect if we sold our young prosepcts now who form part of the expenditure we'd more than break even. I give you a Lennon versus SWP scenario where I doubt many would now say that our lad is behind the Chelski one in terms of effectiveness / value these days. So, return on investment in the financial sense is clearly one well addressed by the group that INCLUDES BMJ when signing are made.

So, it's results that are the issue. Well really the criticism is of our league results as we are still doing well in two cups having beaten some of the best teams in the UEFA cup home and away. We have also progressed nicely in the FA cup but to answer the absurd criticism of some on here, you can only beat who are put before you even if it is Southend.

The League cup exit was amongst many somewhat expected given our recent record against our neighbours, the real quality of their side (eg 6.3 versus Liverpool and a LC semi-final the year before), the fact that their side includes some of the best young players around anywhere and also the fact that their team has been together as a unit a lot longer than ours as it progresses through the ranks at our neighbours. Only an idiot would discount any of that.

So, league results it is. Well, BMJ is the man that helped us over-achieved to get us to fifth last season. Firstly if you can over-achieve over 38 games then it clearly isn't over-achievement instead something must have been done right and done right on a regular basis. This would included choice of TACTICS, TEAM, SUBSTITUTIONS ,TRAINING AND MAN-MANAGEMENT. These are things that managers do and that will include our man. So fluke it wasn't. Infact some point to a poor season by the goons as being why we nearly got 4th spot. Well the reply is simple, Everton qualified for CL in 4th with less point than we achieved last season yet we missed out. So if we then say that if we didn't over achieve last year then we are doing abysmally this season we can also answer that.

Firstly, Carrick, his influence in a key area of the team and for that matter on our style of play. This was a FORCED sale and one that has affected us and for that matter Manure too. We are no longer capable of holding possession and building from the back like last season but curiously Manure are doing this with great effect. Coincidence?.....eh no. We are having to develop a new way of playing with the players we have. many of these are young / new to English football.

Our results have been disappointing in the league on various occasions and indeed we are in the middle of a poor run. However, there are tow types of poor -run.

The first is where you get relegated eg like West Ham this season (I hope) and the other where the team comes out of it having changed its style and been fortified by the set-backs of previous weeks. We are in the middle of the second type of run. Strangely, and I suspect oddly forgotten by those who know little about Spurs but are the first to slag of BMJ and co, we went through a similar poor run which almost equalled out record when he took over. This included some really dire results.

Yet, after that run we changed as a side from the negative rubbish that Santini was getting us to play and we then moved up the table and almost qualified for Europe.

In my time as a Spurs fan (35 years) the best manager is still Burkinshaw. Here is a man that inspite of how we remember him was criticised heavily for his part in our RELEGATION as he was obviously implicated as both coach (to Neal) and then as Manager. BMJ will not get us relegated.

Then in the old 2nd Div we were drawing 0.0 to rubbish like Mansfield at home or getting hammered by the likes of Charlton in the old second div. Still we presisted with our man. Following a fairly lucky promotion (on goal dfference) we then struggled in the league for a few years and a team including Ardiles, Villa, Hoddle and co got hammered 7.0 at Anfield, 5.0 at Home to the Goons and had a number of other real hammerings on the way until we learnt as a team what was required and success came.

His success was allowed only because fools like the idiots who come on here that evidently have never been near the business end of a professional football club were ignored and this is what we should do now. History tells us this and this is our history and not that of Ferguson for example.

My advice to those in the BMJ out crowd is to listen and learn from those who post positive opinons on here because they are clearly better informed and have the capacity to see past a set of negative results in a competition that we haven't even won for 45 years or so.

I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.

Agreed, lets move forward together, and support the current set up.
Uefa Cup and above mid table finish this season.

[Azrael]

I'm split on this issue. I feel the following:-

1. Last year we undoubtedly played above our station. Every team now and again plays beyond the sum of it's parts and, with no cups to worry about, that was certainly the case for us. We should never have expected CL football this year.

2. The true test of a side is year in, year out challenging for top honours. That takes several years and to expect the finished article after just two seasons is astoundingly naive. Lest we forget that Abramamunch turned up Chelski were still a much stronger side than we are now before. Those who argue that financial investment alone is what should be producing results are kidding themselves.

3. Players like Keane, Defoe, Zakora, Robinson and Jenas should habe a good look at themselves. These are players who should be performing at the top level every week, come what may, not going on runs of good form for a few months and then phoning in average attempts for the rest of the year. If we are going to operate squad rotation like the big sides then we need people to come off the bench and perform at the hughest level, even if they've been out of the team for a few weeks.

4. Notwithstanding the above, I do have some concerns about Jol's tactical decisions in view of the squad of players we currently have. I also believe that he has focused for too much on the cup runs at the expense of league. A few months ago I got slaughtered on here for suggesting that, for the sake of progress, a good league finish was far more important this season that a cup. My case for this was that the side was not yet ready to perform at the highest level in all four competitions. Are people looking at the league table now really going to tell me I'm wrong? If we continue on the same road of form we're on then we could even be dabbling with the relegation sides. Do we really want to finish the season with any hopes of European footbal next year vested in whether or not we win the FA or UEFA Cup? That's a huge risk and one which longer term fans like me know has less chance of coming to fruition for us, even with a couple of good cup runs.



I say with give Jol until the end of next season (subject to a real messy start to next season) and see what happens. If he doesn't deliver then alas we must again start to think about using Tottenham's revolving door.

[N10toN17]

Could the people on here who want Martin Jol out, please name me an English football club that has had success on a regular basis, season after season, lifting silverware, on a club policy of hiring and firing coaches/managers on a regular basis?

[koume2]

my dream (DREAM!) spurs team to challenge for honors......


Robinson

Chimbonda Dawson King G.BARRY

Lennon K.NOLAN Jenas M.G.PEDERSEN

Defoe Berbatov


how solid & well balanced is that.

[dontcallme]

2 years ago - who is Jol?
1 year ago - Jol is a good manager
6 month ago - best manager since Venables/Burkinshaw etc.
NOW - Jol is tactically inept and has to go!

fickle? surely not!

I'm sticking to the man for the next two years, so preach your doom and gloom, it aint working on me!

IN JOL I TRUST!


EDIT: Good article BTW, keep the faith mate! :wink:

Early nomination for post of the year. Jol and the team is going through a tough time and as fans we are obviously beyond frustration.

With all the extra games and changes to the first team i was expecting to not perform as well in the league this season but we should be doing better than we are.

This does not mean you sack the manager.

[Coyboy]

It's a shame that you even have to write this article. The thing that I have noticed is that out of all these Jol out posts or ones that imply as much, I haven't seen a possible replacement. Hoddle, Graham and Pleat are out of work why not try them? Oh no been there. My bro and Dad are Everton fans and I never heard them screaming Moyes out last season when they were in a similar situation, I think they lost 4 nil three times in a row to Villa West Brom and someone else. We all say we have the best fans in the league, well some of fans qualify thus but some qualify as the worst.

[infamousyiddo]

Robinson

Chimbonda, Dawson, Rocha, Ekotto

Tainio, Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque

Keane, Berbatov


this was the starting XI vs sheff utd at the weekend. Of that eleven SIX outfield players are in their first full season of the premiership.

Teemu and JJ are still getting there way to full fitness following injuries and illness.

im as unhappy as the next spurs fan but come on!!! No matter what way we look at it, we have many new players and its has taken time for them to get used to the prem and gel as a team.

[bigspurs]

You are indeed a Wiener by name and a Wiener by nature!

[JuanRebelde]

It's a shame that you even have to write this article. The thing that I have noticed is that out of all these Jol out posts or ones that imply as much, I haven't seen a possible replacement. Hoddle, Graham and Pleat are out of work why not try them? Oh no been there. My bro and Dad are Everton fans and I never heard them screaming Moyes out last season when they were in a similar situation, I think they lost 4 nil three times in a row to Villa West Brom and someone else. We all say we have the best fans in the league, well some of fans qualify thus but some qualify as the worst.


What's that phrase about a nail and hitting it on the head........ well that's what you've done! :clap:

[Hartfelt]

I think the main issue is simply would removing Jol be any better for the club? A revolving door policy for managers encourages turmoil. It also presupposes that a better candidate exists. I defy anyone to propose a replacement that would realistically come/be able to come to Tottenham and produce better results.

I wanted I O'Neill. He wasn't available. We got Santini. Then we got Jol. I think he's been adequate. I won't call for his head until I see evidence that he's bad for the club. At the moment I'm undecided; this has been a poor season, but last season looked promising. Balance is everything.

There is very little excuse for the way we've been playing. A huge investment has been made in the team. It's the most talented side since the 1980s. Carrick went with the club's blessing. New players were added. Despite this the midfield remains a disharmonious mess. Jol appears to be unable to make it work. Irrespective of where we finish this season, (9th looks likely), to me it's Jol's response to the midfield problem over the next few weeks which will show just how much of a manager he really is.

This season has been wearying...like so many others. We're starting to look like Newcastle. When Ledley comes all will be well - except that we've missed out on Euro qualification bar a cup miracle. If next season is as poor as this one Jol will be shown the door and we'll be back to square one. I envy United and the Scum. Steady as she goes. If only.

[Azrael]

Robinson

Chimbonda, Dawson, Rocha, Ekotto

Tainio, Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque

Keane, Berbatov


this was the starting XI vs sheff utd at the weekend. Of that eleven SIX outfield players are in their first full season of the premiership.

Teemu and JJ are still getting there way to full fitness following injuries and illness.

im as unhappy as the next spurs fan but come on!!! No matter what way we look at it, we have many new players and its has taken time for them to get used to the prem and gel as a team.
Oh come on, can we please get past the "foreigners need to gel and get used to the Prem" crap? Granted it happens to some players, but six of them in one starting 11 alone? Come on pal. You don't see that happening en masse over such a long period when Arse, Manure or Chelski sign some foreigners. At most they suffer is one or two not coming good for a while.

[barry]

What about Alladyce, coppel, jewell, the seville manager, or even the getafte manager. I think they could all do a job.
I like Jol as a person, and i really wanna give him time, but i'm afraid that if he doesn't get it right soon, they'll be a mass exodus of tottenham players, and he'd have fucked up our golden generation. This is probably the worst case scenario.
Can anyone tell me when the time is right to call for his head. We've been playing poor disjointed football for 2 seasons now. We were lucky last season. I recall alot of people saying 'the sign of a good club is to win while playing poorly'. That tells me we played poorly alot last season. This season we've been playing poorly again but the results haven't come. I haven't seen many signs of improvement.
I've given Jol time. 2 seasons is a long time in football. If the team were playing well or improving every week, but losing or drawing unluckily, I could just about accept it safe in the knowledge that we'll come good, but we're not.
A good manager with good players shouldn't need 2 seasons to make a team good.
Sometimes a good manager just can't get it right with a certain club for what ever reasons. Look at cappello at madrid, or Curbishley at West Ham(not good, but did an adequate job at Charlton).
I really hope I'm wrong, because I like Jol alot and think he gives my beloved spurs a good face nationally and internationally. Please prove me wrong Mr Jol.

[Azrael]

^ Paul Jewell? You're having a laugh, right?

[barry]

^ Paul Jewell? You're having a laugh, right?
I think Paul Jewell's a quality manager. agree to disagree

[llamafarmer]

Good article that man. Most important point for me is that we have dumped managers in the past without giving them time, I truly believe we now have a good one and we should give him a fair crack of the whip. You don't build a great side in a year without a bent Russian billionaire!

[Wiener]

You are indeed a Wiener by name and a Wiener by nature!

I know.

Personal insults aside, my intention was certainly not to offend you. We are all spurs fans and we all want the same thing in the end. I just thought your criticism of the club and manager was rather harsh, and I don't really understand how you can justify it.

I think our attitude (i.e. as spurs fans) does make a difference. There is a fine line between success and failure, and having the fans on board during the difficult times will help us in the long run. Therefore if you are going to criticise, make it constructive.

Anyway, as I said we are all in it together, wieners included.

COYS

[Coyboy]

What's that phrase about a nail and hitting it on the head........ well that's what you've done! :clap:


Cheers mate, not as detailed as your above post but I get so mad that I can't concentrate on a long post refuting such nonsense without putting my head through a window.

[Riandor]

Well... the result was poor. I was sick and angry, but shouting that MJ should be sacked is a bigger insult than the performance.

Forget a left winger, that is not our reason for losing, I don't remember us having one last season and we finished where?

We are missing a leader, pure and simple. Someone who leads by example.

Someone qouted Cantona as being the reason MAN UTD finally clicked back in the 90's, I think he and Keane were the main reason Man UTD achieved. Their youngsters could play with the confidence required as these 2 would play their hearts out week in and week out and would sometimes singlehandedly drag their team across the proverbial finish line.

For Arsenal it was again a combo of Vierra and Henry.

Chelsea - Makelele... look how they have struggled without him (and recently Terry), yes their so called blip has left them struggling in 2nd (nice dilemma) but still.

Where do we have that kind of player? King in defence is a must at present, he is skilled, calm and just plain good. Berbatov has the potential to be like Henry, different style of player, but in terms of the quality up front, he is class.

It is purely in midfield that we still do not have the Keane, Makalele, Vierra player. No one and I mean NO ONE in a spurs shirt grabs the opposition and says: "Oi, this is our 3pts FFS, who the hell do you think you are?!"

Davids did that, yes he was beyond his best, but he was an example and harried the opposition, roughed them up and just plainly got in their face. This forces the other team to make mistakes which our flair players can THEN capitalise on.

In short ladies and gentleman, we still need a central midfield signing. Either that or Zakora has some serious progression to make. He might still come good.. there are plenty of examples of players not making a good impression in their first season, so anyone who says it isn't excuse is simply wrong (sorry).

Sort the middle out, win the ball there and do not rely on our defence to retrieve 100% of the balls.

The trick is to find that sort of player who will come to a non top 4 club. That is Commoli's task and hopefully we will get there.

If anyone says last year was a one off, why not this season? Who is to say that last year is our true potential and that we have blipped this year due to new signings and increased amount of games and pressure from fans?

Only time will tell... I believe us Spurs fans have waited a long time to get where we are now, you saying we can't wait that little bit more?!

R.

[masterblaster80]

What about Alladyce, coppel, jewell, the seville manager, or even the getafte manager. I think they could all do a job.
I like Jol as a person, and i really wanna give him time, but i'm afraid that if he doesn't get it right soon, they'll be a mass exodus of tottenham players, and he'd have fucked up our golden generation. This is probably the worst case scenario.
Can anyone tell me when the time is right to call for his head. We've been playing poor disjointed football for 2 seasons now. We were lucky last season. I recall alot of people saying 'the sign of a good club is to win while playing poorly'. That tells me we played poorly alot last season. This season we've been playing poorly again but the results haven't come. I haven't seen many signs of improvement.
I've given Jol time. 2 seasons is a long time in football. If the team were playing well or improving every week, but losing or drawing unluckily, I could just about accept it safe in the knowledge that we'll come good, but we're not.
A good manager with good players shouldn't need 2 seasons to make a team good.
Sometimes a good manager just can't get it right with a certain club for what ever reasons. Look at cappello at madrid, or Curbishley at West Ham(not good, but did an adequate job at Charlton).
I really hope I'm wrong, because I like Jol alot and think he gives my beloved spurs a good face nationally and internationally. Please prove me wrong Mr Jol.

What guarantee can you give that a "mass exodus" of players will happen if Jol doesn't right the wrongs? and what guarantee can you give that the same scenario doesn't happen with a new manager?

appointing a new manager will just restart the cycle all over again, he'll want his own staff, both playing and non-playing, then th team has to adapt to the new manager's philosophy, another year for consolidation, and if he f*cks up, we'll all be here having the same arguments

so what if we finish 10th? its a disappointment, yes, but with sticking with Jol and allowing him time to fix those wrong, we can move forward next season with a very important lesson well learnt!

[barry]

What guarantee can you give that a "mass exodus" of players will happen if Jol doesn't right the wrongs? and what guarantee can you give that the same scenario doesn't happen with a new manager?

appointing a new manager will just restart the cycle all over again, he'll want his own staff, both playing and non-playing, then th team has to adapt to the new manager's philosophy, another year for consolidation, and if he f*cks up, we'll all be here having the same arguments

so what if we finish 10th? its a disappointment, yes, but with sticking with Jol and allowing him time to fix those wrong, we can move forward next season with a very important lesson well learnt!

true brother, I understand your point but when do you cut your losses. There are no guarantees or even signs at the moment that Jol will make us better.
I just can't see us improving with each game. We usually play poorly for 70mins in any given game. We have quality players, but they never justify it on the pitch. why? For me the blame has to lie with Jol.
If we got a new manager now, rather than in a years time, he would have a year longer to work with the squad.
Look at Wenger, he only took a year.
I really just don't believe Jol has the ability to fix Spurs. I hope he proves me wrong

[Jonesey]

I agree with everything you say except I think we should also question Comolli's abilities to scout and bring in the players we need.

Bolton always seem to be able to turn up quality unknown footballers as well as well-known, experienced players who can come in and contribute to the team during league games.

Even ignoring our lack of left wingers, we need to sign some players who can do the same next season as, sadly, this season's league challenge is pretty much over.

My other gripe is about our fitness. Why is it that every week we look knackered in the last 30 minutes when the opposition always look like they could play on for another half an hour? If we're such a young team - an excuse which, frankly, is beginning to wear thin - this should not be the case.

[barry]

Spot on and probably the best description of some of the fools who come on this site to post the nonsense they do about getting BMJ out. Whilst we are not building Rome again, we certainly are involved in a project that lasts more than a day.... more like years.

I believe that football is a game of opinions to use a cliche but the issue with the BMJ out crowd is that is revolves around one issue and that is the balance between outlay over the last 2-3 years and results over the last 5-6 months . So let's look at this a bit closer.

Firstly, who's money is it and is it affordable to the club? Well the answer is not ours and frankly yes it is clearly affordable. THFC is not Leeds united. Indeed, I suspect if we sold our young prosepcts now who form part of the expenditure we'd more than break even. I give you a Lennon versus SWP scenario where I doubt many would now say that our lad is behind the Chelski one in terms of effectiveness / value these days. So, return on investment in the financial sense is clearly one well addressed by the group that INCLUDES BMJ when signing are made.

So, it's results that are the issue. Well really the criticism is of our league results as we are still doing well in two cups having beaten some of the best teams in the UEFA cup home and away. We have also progressed nicely in the FA cup but to answer the absurd criticism of some on here, you can only beat who are put before you even if it is Southend.

The League cup exit was amongst many somewhat expected given our recent record against our neighbours, the real quality of their side (eg 6.3 versus Liverpool and a LC semi-final the year before), the fact that their side includes some of the best young players around anywhere and also the fact that their team has been together as a unit a lot longer than ours as it progresses through the ranks at our neighbours. Only an idiot would discount any of that.

So, league results it is. Well, BMJ is the man that helped us over-achieved to get us to fifth last season. Firstly if you can over-achieve over 38 games then it clearly isn't over-achievement instead something must have been done right and done right on a regular basis. This would included choice of TACTICS, TEAM, SUBSTITUTIONS ,TRAINING AND MAN-MANAGEMENT. These are things that managers do and that will include our man. So fluke it wasn't. Infact some point to a poor season by the goons as being why we nearly got 4th spot. Well the reply is simple, Everton qualified for CL in 4th with less point than we achieved last season yet we missed out. So if we then say that if we didn't over achieve last year then we are doing abysmally this season we can also answer that.

Firstly, Carrick, his influence in a key area of the team and for that matter on our style of play. This was a FORCED sale and one that has affected us and for that matter Manure too. We are no longer capable of holding possession and building from the back like last season but curiously Manure are doing this with great effect. Coincidence?.....eh no. We are having to develop a new way of playing with the players we have. many of these are young / new to English football.

Our results have been disappointing in the league on various occasions and indeed we are in the middle of a poor run. However, there are tow types of poor -run.

The first is where you get relegated eg like West Ham this season (I hope) and the other where the team comes out of it having changed its style and been fortified by the set-backs of previous weeks. We are in the middle of the second type of run. Strangely, and I suspect oddly forgotten by those who know little about Spurs but are the first to slag of BMJ and co, we went through a similar poor run which almost equalled out record when he took over. This included some really dire results.

Yet, after that run we changed as a side from the negative rubbish that Santini was getting us to play and we then moved up the table and almost qualified for Europe.

In my time as a Spurs fan (35 years) the best manager is still Burkinshaw. Here is a man that inspite of how we remember him was criticised heavily for his part in our RELEGATION as he was obviously implicated as both coach (to Neal) and then as Manager. BMJ will not get us relegated.

Then in the old 2nd Div we were drawing 0.0 to rubbish like Mansfield at home or getting hammered by the likes of Charlton in the old second div. Still we presisted with our man. Following a fairly lucky promotion (on goal dfference) we then struggled in the league for a few years and a team including Ardiles, Villa, Hoddle and co got hammered 7.0 at Anfield, 5.0 at Home to the Goons and had a number of other real hammerings on the way until we learnt as a team what was required and success came.

His success was allowed only because fools like the idiots who come on here that evidently have never been near the business end of a professional football club were ignored and this is what we should do now. History tells us this and this is our history and not that of Ferguson for example.

My advice to those in the BMJ out crowd is to listen and learn from those who post positive opinons on here because they are clearly better informed and have the capacity to see past a set of negative results in a competition that we haven't even won for 45 years or so.

I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.

:clap: nicely written. Eventhough I'm still unconvinced by Jol, this was a well thought out counter argument to the jol out brigade.

[easiman]

Forget a left winger, that is not our reason for losing, I don't remember us having one last season and we finished where?

We are missing a leader, pure and simple. Someone who leads by example.

Where do we have that kind of player? Kinf in defence is a must at present, he is skilled, calm and just plain good. Berbatov has the potential to be like Henry, different style of player, but in terms of the quality up front, he is class.

It is purely in midfield that we still do not have the Keane, Makalele, Vierra player. No one and I mean NO ONE in a spurs shirt grabs the opposition and says: "Oi, this is our 3pts FFS, who the hell do you think you are?!"

Davids did that, yes he was beyond his best, but he was an example and harried the opposition, roughed them up and just plainly got in their face. This forces the other team to make mistakes which our flair players can THEN capitalise on.

In short ladies and gentleman, we still need a central midfield signing. Either that or Zakora has some serious progression to make. He might still come good.. there are plenty of examples of players not making a good impression in their first season, so anyone who says it isn't excuse is simply wrong (sorry).

Sort the middle out, win the ball there and do not rely on our defence to retrieve 100% of the balls.

The trick is to find that sort of player who will come to a non top 4 club. That is Commoli's task and hopefully we will get there.

Only time will tell... I believe us Spurs fans have waited a long time to get where we are now, you saying we can't wait that little bit more?!

R.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

[masterblaster80]

true brother, I understand your point but when do you cut your losses. There are no guarantees or even signs at the moment that Jol will make us better.
I just can't see us improving with each game. We usually play poorly for 70mins in any given game. We have quality players, but they never justify it on the pitch. why? For me the blame has to lie with Jol.
If we got a new manager now, rather than in a years time, he would have a year longer to work with the squad.
Look at Wenger, he only took a year.
I really just don't believe Jol has the ability to fix Spurs. I hope he proves me wrong

Wait till the end of next season, if, by then, we're still mid table, not in europe or fail to win a cup, then i'll say Jol's taken us as far as he can.

there is where i draw the line.

does waiting another season that bad? hosnetly, whats the worst that can happen?

[rooster1]

What i can't understand is the relationship between
Jol and Commoli ! I hear that Commoli buys the players
and Jol plays them ? I can fully understand the youth
recruitment for the stars of the future so would that be
between Com and allen ? As for picking players who will
do battle in the here and now,then Jol and Commoli
should deliberate over this matter,i mean it has to be
more than, for example (Jol) I need a left winger,(Com) let
me see what i can do .Eek From my imagination Commoli
shows jol a list/dvd and they decide if the player is available
and then Com consults with Levy about the price and availability.If this is the case then it would make sense,
but if Com and levy decide and jol has just asked for
a centre back and they come back and say yep just
got you one!! It's like when your mum bought you. some crappy trainers which nobody wears and says they
look good on you ,but you know youll never be seen dead in
them,then it must be frustrating being in Jol's position.

Then shouldn't Jol have the say in who he wants and
they come back to him and say whether it's possible
or impossible.

[Parmenio]

I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.

Fantastic post! Spot on.

[devonte01]

Here we go again with the "entitled to their views" - stating the obvious and arguing with a point that has not been made.

The unarguable fact that they are entitled to their views does not make one bit of difference to whether or not their views are "idiotic and illiterate".

So why do people just keep on posting this? I think I've seen it 10-20 times over the past couple of months, except that usually it's "entitled to their opinions". No one ever says otherwise. So what does it add to the discussion?


Maybe when you realise that we live in a democratic society and not under dictatorship, you will understand my views a little better

[ridouche]

Ahh, you wasting your time, mate, he is Narcissistic! bit like
miss Piggy from the muppets. I better dive now...

[davidmatzdorf]

Maybe when you realise that we live in a democratic society and not under dictatorship, you will understand my views a little better

You have completely ignored - or perhaps completely missed - my point, which has nothing to do with dictatorship/democracy (and I would disagree with your suggestion that we "live in a democratic society", but then I'm an old anarchist at heart...).

If anything, my point is quite far down the extreme-democratic line.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one ever argues otherwise. So why do people keep using "everyone has a right to an opinion" as a counter-argument, whenever someone says that someone else's argument is ill-thought-out or nonsensical. It isn't an argument against this - it's a completely irrelevant comment in the context.

The only other explanation I can think of for this is that what people are really trying to say is "everyone's opinion is as good as everyone else's". Which is self-evidently ridiculous. Some opinions are consistent, logical and well-thought-out and some are just aberrations and make no sense at all.

All opinions are not created equal. But that is completely different than saying that people do not have a right to have their crazy opinions. Which I never say. Ever. Because it's wrong.

"Everyone has a right to their opinion" is a comment about free speech, which is not being challenged.

"Everyone's opinion is as good as everyone else's" is just a way to kill discussion, because if it were true, there would be no point in having a debate at all.

And that is my point.

[2bearis2do]

All seems a long time ago this..
5 wins on the trot and no one is complaining.
Despite the articles belieef that there was a Jol Out brigade, I cant recollect reading anyone on this site that said get Jol out. Maybe the odd idiot but a small tiny minority. what people were doing was questioning his tactics and team selection. That my frirnd is evry Spurs fans perrogative. But I think if you took a poll at the time of our dip in form (because that is all it was) Then you would haave had a 90+% poll in support of BMJ and what he is trying to do for the great THFC.