What's new

Why we play 4-5-1 or "You don't know what you're doing"

AndyLov

Member
Jul 7, 2007
77
0
This was the first time that JJ and Zokora started together in midfield and we have lost (and Ramos took Zokora off for no good reason). The only other games they both played in the middle were Chelsea, Krakow and Newcastle. We had a 5th place finish with them as the first choice pairing. I'm not a big Zokora fan but unlike the rest of the team they know each other's game. As for droping JJ, he is the only one that seems to give a shit at the moment, not that the hate mob care about that.

We are significantly worse than last year at the moment and in a five man midfield we are leaving the forward far too isolated. Get back to a 4-4-2 with either the 2 number 9's or with Gio or Lennon playing off Bent. The more players we have in thier natural positions the quicker the team will gel and we shouldn't be messing about tactically when confidence is so obviously shot.
 

AllSeeingEye

YP Lee's Spiritual Guide
Apr 20, 2005
3,084
426
Nice post. But what you are saying is that Zokora isn't as versatile as he should be.

The team line up is good but where's the part where we are gonna turn premiership sides over and stay away from the drop zone?

When people are saying, "you don't know what you're doing", it may stem from a lack of motivation rather than positioning.

Technically we should be able to put out any team and still count on a draw or a win, but it's wedged in the players heads that they are going to lose. You can see it in the passing. There are so many passes going back to the back four it's debilitating to watch.

Where's the forward passing? Why is Dawson still hoofing the ball 50 yards at nobody?

Why is BAE toying with the ball Atouba style 3 or 4 times a game?

Why is Bale in left mid and or not playing at all?

So many questions and they are all leading back to Ramos.

He needs to sort this out PRONTO or we are in deep sh*t.

And if we go down........ we can forget coming back, cos you need balls in the Championship too and I am seeing none of it for miles.

And when the cup runs get squeaky we will all be looking back at the table and the impossible climb up to a European spot wondering why we trust a man who has had half a season to suss out how to win in the Prem and failed miserably.

And don't point to last seasons league results because they were shit too.

Losing at home to Brum and failing to beat the lower half of the table away is tantamount to a pile of rubbish.

And I can't bear it much longer.




Sort it out Ramos, or we will be the laughing stock come the arsenal game and your head will be on the frigging block!
 

ultimateloner

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2004
4,539
2,149
The fault is not Ramos but our squad.

Ramos was brought in to push us onto the next level - and it won't come easily. The players need to develop the positional awareness, stamina and technique to implement his vision.

Under Jol we were 5th back-to-back. We could very well continue this way - we played simple football, relying our 1 or 2 star players to make things happen (Carrick, Berbatov). Not only was this unsustainable, it was also limited because better teams could simply scuff out our key players. We lacked variety, but we get results quickly - simply because we have better quality all over the field compared with any team apart from the top 4. Our forward players such as Lennon only needs to focus on what he does best - running down the byline.

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina. Players such as Zokora and Dawson will struggle.

I applaud Levy's ambition and courage. I think he has done the right thing. What is needed now is judgement - how much time would Ramos realistically have to implement his vision given the limited ability of the players? How much patience could fans/the board afford before reverting back to our usual ways?
 

AndyLov

Member
Jul 7, 2007
77
0
With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina.
Have you seen us play? We are more direct now than under Jol, and with less inviting targets to aim at. I know what Ramos managed to get out of Seville but that's a different club in a different league. He can't just create a winning team by doing exactly what he did at another club and expecting it to work here, he must be able to adapt and he just isn't.
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
2,776
553
Agreed with most of what you said Rob. I would only replace one player in the lineup...that is Zokora for Huddlestone. It was apparent last night that O'Hara was the worker in the midfield and Jenas and Zokora were ineffective. Including Huddlestone would give us a better passing range than what either of these two provided yesterday. Five in the midfield is the best way to get Huddlestone involved and O'Hara, Modric alongside him would be the go.
 

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2004
1,537
302
4-5-1 suits some players and not others.

To play 4-5-1, you need a physical striker who runs all day, works the channels and gives defenders a hard time, wins free kicks, holds the ball up and lays the ball off for runners from midfield. Think Drogba or Anelka for classic 4-5-1 strikers. We have a proven success in that position (Bent) and a striker with almost none of the attributes (Pavlyuchenko), but guess which one we're playing?

You need wingers who will support the centre forward, cut inside to shooting positions, and take defenders on. Crosses aren't as important as in a 4-4-2 as there's not many bodies to aim at. Defending ability isn't as important either because there should be a spare man in midfield. In other words, it suits Lennon and Giovanni more than Bentley or Bale (or Gilberto), but guess who's playing?

And in central midfield, the WHOLE POINT of 4-5-1 is that you can accommodate a playmaker without sacrificing your competitive edge. With Zokora holding and Jenas (or O'Hara) harrying and making late runs, you can afford to play someone to dictate play. If it isn't Modric - and what is he for if it isn't? - then you have to try Huddlestone. But you can't play 3 runners, none of them especially creative, and expect our attackers to see any of the ball.

Today's 11 was the poorest choice I can remember by a Spurs manager. It made literally no sense. I thought there were 5 or 6 errors out of 11, some of them laughable. We have the players to turn this around, but we don't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.
 

rjhotspur

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
158
288
I feel sorry for Ramos, I think he is a good manager who is trying to find solutions but the problem isn't tactical it's that our players are just playing terribly. Bentley £16m? I wouldn't pay £1m for him based on his performances so far, he's been a disgrace and doesn't have the excuse of acclimatising to the English game. At least when Beckham is bad he still puts in quality dead balls.

Gio will need a lot more time to adapt to playing in the Premiership and has been pretty poor so far in his outings. Jenas should be taken out and shot. He is lazy despite the fact that he runs around a lot when he feels like it, he has no vision (witness anytime he is facing the opposition with his arms outstretched begging for someone to tell him where to pass it), and doesn't give a damn. If he had half of O'Hara's determination he would be great. O'Hara is pretty limited and is our Fletcher.

Zokora is playing very well for us but of course will never create a chance in his Spurs career. I'm not a big Lennon fan but he has been doing well lately and I'm surprised he isn't getting more minutes.

Poor Pav being made to run around like a donkey with zero support is a sad sight, but Ramos is trying to get our midfield to stop sucking and packing it with numbers.

I don't know what the solution is until the players themselves begin to play better, I cannot pick a team or a formation that will make any difference based on their displays and I doubt that Ramos can either.

Bizarre 11 that I have been thinking about for some reason:
-----------------------------Gomes-----------------------
Gunter-------- Woodgate --------------King ----------BAE
-------Corluka --------------Zokora ------------Bale
Lennon ----------------------------------------------Modric
--------------------------Pavlyuchenko---------------------
 

ealingspur

WHPK 88.5FM Chicago
Oct 4, 2004
1,244
358
our problem is that we dont have enough players who hate to lose. we need hutton back, not because corluka is not a good player, he is, but because you get the impression that hutton would give these players a rollocking. we need to stop playing people who cant speak to their team mates. bentley is more concerned about the highlights in his hair than making the highlights of the game. The team should be as following until we can start picking up points:

gomes
hutton woody king bale (we need to start risking king as much as we can)
zokora (love him or hate him, he tries his best)
Lennon Ghaly O'hara (we I said it, ghaly.)
Bent Campbell

I say ghaly because he played with his heart. he threw his shirt because he wanted to play. he lost his teeth for the cause and kept playing. Im not knocking Pav, Modric or Dos Santos because i think they want it, but aren't quite ready yet, and need to be bedded in. He also had significant quality. If you watch his highlights, he can pick a pass, make a good run, can beat a man and has decent pace, and is strong in the tackle. he is also liable to a lapse in concentration, but we can forgive him that given the state of the rest of our team.

With regards to jenas, im nor a hater nor a lover, I just call it as i see it. yes today, there were several times where he would run forwards, his arms in an aghast shape, questioning his teammates for runs, and thats not his fault, he's entitled to demand that of his teammates. But as the original yiddster often says, he's not good enough in a the most important position on the pitch. lets look at the managers who have picked him regularily. Robson, Jol and Ramos havent had much of a choice - Ramos still needs to introduce modric properly, and once he gets into the flow, that OUGHT to be it for jenas. Capello has had some quite frankly bizarre choices, and neither him nor Sven chose him as a regular. for sven he was one of the guys to fill up the numbers, and under capello he is a bit part player. I think he's got good attributes, but nothing special or rather good enough.

Bentley is a waste of money and space. All those of you advocating his purchase of the summer for SUCH a massive amount of money were very very wrong. He was a great player for blackburn, but he was not needed. we could have and should have spent that money on other areas. We should also not have made so many changes, but hindsight is such a wonderful thing. Players like steed, teemu and chimbonda were hard, they were tough, they didnt like losing. Nobody could knock steed off the ball. a feather could knock bentley a mile. We need to resort to recently promoted tactics to get anywhere now.
 

TutanKlinsmann

Active Member
Sep 25, 2006
518
163
The problem with Jenas is everybody looked at him as a box-to-box player. I agree with that. But, that was not his strength. That's weaken his play. That's what makes him missing for half of the game. Put him in a position a la Lampard, and he'll do good. No need to think of helping the defense, and really not the playmaker. That job should be given to Modric. Everrybody knows what the man can do.

And Zokopops, let him play just in front of the defense.
 

Spurfect

Member
Jan 22, 2004
33
1
BAE and O'hara would be nowhere near my starting 11. Both turn the ball over far too much. Most of O'hara's efforts are trying to recover possession after he has lost the ball. He needs far too much time to make a decision when passing and prevents us playing quickly in the midfield. BAE shows no commitment to the contest and seems to be out of position far too often. As a defender, you shouldn't be casually jogging back when you've lost possesssion as was seen when O'hara lost the ball in the second half. Pathetic effort!! Not acceptable....
 

doubledecker

New Member
Nov 26, 2004
920
1
Very good post Rob.

There is a huge problem in that our midfield cannot operate as a 4 especially since we have tossed out Malbranque and Tainio.

Lennon- Tainio- Modric- Malbranque would imo have worked as a 4. In fact there was nothing much wrong with Lennon- Jenas- Tainio- Malbranque. As a certain 5-1 performance showed . True to form it was discarded by Ramos after that. And please let's not hear all the shit Mr SS 57 about Tainio always being injured. If he only played in half the matches at least we would have a DM worthy of the description half the time.( Perhaps Ledley King could play DM when fit also since Corluka looks ok at CD ).. Does anyone REALLY think that Ohara and Zokora are better than Tainio in that position ? The fact that neither can do the job effectively is the very reason that Rob is putting forward a midfield with BOTH of them. And Malbranque did a huge amount of tackling back to help whoever was our weak LB in a way that Lennon on the left, Bentley, Gio just do not.

The truth is that Ramos likes athletes which is why he ignores the footballing limitations of Zokora, Ekotto and Bent. I wish we still had Tainio, Malbranque and yes Defoe.

I touched on King as DM . he did it effectively for England. He did it for us a few years ago even when he had Doherty, Richards and Gardner behind him. In our current predicament we could do worse than play him there to anchor our MF.Perhaps then we could go with 2 strikers.

The other part of our serious problem is that while we do not have a MF that can operate as a 4 ( unless Ledley plays at DM ) , we have strikers who need to operate as a pair. Talk about caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea !

I wish I had the answers. If we have to play 5 in MF then we must have attacking ability on the flanks and that means Lennon and Gio. Bentley is not worth his place and right now nor is Jenas. So for me it would be Lennon- Zokora- Modric- Ohara- Gio with Lennon, Modric and Gio given instructions to break forward into the box at every opportunity to support whichever of our strikers draws the short straw.
 

bobby b

New Member
Sep 2, 2008
10
0
I just find it so hard to beleive a manager that not only Spurs fans but players like Modric and Gio signed purely for his being the coach can be so out of touch with his own squad.Remember in Ramos we trust? the pre-season?All of a sudden all f***ing hell has broken loose and Ramos,Poyet,Levy and the rest of the staff haven't a clue as to how to fix it !
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,344
77,598
I still think our best team at the moment is the one that played away to Chelsea. I dont understand why we haven't played that team since then. We could easily play the same team with Pavyluchenko in place of Bent. Hutton in place of Gunter when he returns. And Corluka in place of King when he needs resting. But the 4-5-1 only works when we have pace in the midfield. Bentley and Gilberto will never be able to support a lone striker imo. We can use one of them out wide, but definately not 2. Theres no doubt that this system works best with Giovani and Lennon, or at least one of those two.

Your team looks good there Rob. Personally, i would have Jenas in place of O'Hara and Giovani in place of either Lennon or Bentley, but played on the left.
 

richardh

New Member
Sep 29, 2008
2
0
Great article. However what is up with the team you have picked up though?? We're not like chelsea where they can play an effective 4-5-1 formation with a player like Drogba up front getting support from the likes of malouda, ballack, lampard, j cole etc, we simply don't have these calibre of players to incorporate such a formation. So Pavlychenko has to be partnered with either bent or campbell, which brings to my attention where on earth was frasier campbell yesterday??? as he's been one of our better players when his come on from the bench this season. I'm not the biggest fan of vedran corluka either he seems to be very sloppy and doesn't seem to think when he distributes the ball, however if he is given a definitive roll in the team as either a centre back or a right back then he will have stability and should improve rather than playing him in different positions week in week out. I think lennon has probably been our best player this season along with bale who was injured yesterday, however ramos and poyet don't seem to see this as they opt not pick him for the last 3 games running. I dont rate zokora or jenas-simply not good enough jenas gave away a completely uneccesary penalty yesterday. Lastly why on earth was gilberto pciked ahead of lennon and GDS, what on earth did ramos expect him to offer to our team his not exactky the type of player thats gonna offer support to pavlychenko.

My team would be:

GK:Gomes
RB: Hutton (when fit) otherwise Gunter
CB: King (when fit) otherwise Corluka
CB: Woodgate
LB: Bale
RM: Lennon
CM: Modric
CM: Jenas (as theres really no one else)
LM: Bentley
ST: Pavlychenko
ST: Campbell
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
I was all geared up to reply to this interesting article, until skimming the truly pathetic, learning-disabled chain of responses nearly put me off. Virtually every post, long or short, blames our current difficulties on an individual player, usually Jenas or Zokora, and calls the poster's bête noire "shit" or "a waste of money".

People who have nothing interesting to say could possibly consider shutting up, instead of using internet boards as a vehicle for venting their formless rage at individual Spurs players ... but I don't know why I even bothered writing that. It's not going to make any difference. People will continue to embarrass themselves in public, whatever I say.

Anyway, at least getting that off my chest has restored my desire to comment on the article. There's an elephant in the room and everyone is avoiding mentioning it. Post after post tries to analyse our sputtering midfield and the problems we are having supporting the strikers.

But the "best defence in years" has contrived, in every match so far but one, to look really good for about 86 minutes, yet still concede one or, usually, two goals. Individually, we have an excellent squad, but it is not functioning as a team and the mental weakness of the collective is evident in virtually every minute of play. That is at least as true of our defence as it is of our midfield. The defence isn't working, or at least it isn't doing what it has been designed to do, which is to concede less than one goal per game. That's a realistic target for a defence that expects to finish in the top six: concede no more than 38 goals in a league season.

Perhaps people haven't noticed because we haven't made many defensive howlers, nor have we been on the rough end of a hiding, but the defence isn't functioning any better than the midfield. Not in terms of end product.
 

bubble07

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2004
22,959
29,896
Very well said Rob. However at this present moment Bentley doesn't deserve to start. The main problem with Bentley starting wide right in a 5 is his lack of pace. It will be like watching England play with Beckham's 60 yard passes - he will turn us into a long ball team. In a 4 man midfield he should start but in a i'm not so sure in a 5

For a 4-5-1 formation to work we need quick players supporting Pavlyuchenko which means we should be starting with Giovani. Him and Lennon could swap flanks during games and cause oppositions real problems

Gomes



Hutton Woodgate Corluka Bale


Giovani Zokora Modric O’Hara Lennon


Pavlychenko
 

bubble07

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2004
22,959
29,896
I9 know the problem isn't who to buy next in January but if we could sign a vieira type player we can play 4-4-2 and have bent and campbell rotating for a starting place alongside Pav.

Although I think Pav is our best option as a lone striker he does lack pace. I think people on here underestimated how quick berba was
 

Oz_Spurs

New Member
Sep 27, 2005
29
0
BAE and O'hara would be nowhere near my starting 11. Both turn the ball over far too much. Most of O'hara's efforts are trying to recover possession after he has lost the ball. He needs far too much time to make a decision when passing and prevents us playing quickly in the midfield. BAE shows no commitment to the contest and seems to be out of position far too often. As a defender, you shouldn't be casually jogging back when you've lost possesssion as was seen when O'hara lost the ball in the second half. Pathetic effort!! Not acceptable....
thank god, someone not blaming all the mid field problems on Zokora who ,is playing his best football at the moment. I agree on O'hara, he is like Dawson, his mistake mean he has to hurl himself around trying to make up for them, then people assume he is dying for the cause when actually they are just poor footballers.

I also have to fight Pav's case on here, he runs tirelessly and get's 0 service, anything that was there to be had he got on the end of but genrally the service was terrible, he looks a little cumbersome on the ball but so does Drogba so the lad should be given time he'll come good.
 

Rob

The Boss
Admin
Jun 8, 2003
28,014
65,116
My team would be:

GK:Gomes
RB: Hutton (when fit) otherwise Gunter
CB: King (when fit) otherwise Corluka
CB: Woodgate
LB: Bale
RM: Lennon
CM: Modric
CM: Jenas (as theres really no one else)
LM: Bentley
ST: Pavlychenko
ST: Campbell

I really wanted to pick a 4-4-2 as I hate seeng Pav who's clearly so talented being isolated but do you not see how weak that central midfield is. Even if it were Modric and Tainio then maybe it'd work, Modric and Mendes certainly would have done but Modric and Jenas? Unless Jenas really starts to show the potential he's threatened to for seasons then that midfield pairing simply doesn't work as there's no one in there to break up the play or sit in front of the defence when needed.

My whole point was that we need a good DM to cover the uncertain defence and plug the hole in midfield. At the minute that's got to be Zokora but he just doesn't function in a 4-4-2 where he looks awful. In a 4-5-1 he's been one of our best players but to accomodate that it has to be 1 up front with the support coming from midfield.

I know I'm placing the whole blame on Jenas here but it's not that simple. Dropping Jenas would allow us to play a formation and style that suits our current personnel.
 
Top