We hate Harry/"player"/Levy/Spurs...

davidmatzdorf · Feb 13, 2011

Azrael said:
So basically DM, you are saying that if you dare question Harry you are a bad seed out to destroy the site....

...and here was me stupidly thinking this was a site for discussion.

Are you being ironical or did you really not read what I wrote?

...it enables the bitter-and-twisted mob to portray those of us who want to see clearly as insisting that "Harry can do no wrong" and as being unrealistically Pollyanna-ish about the quality of players and coaches at the club...

...The vast majority of people who are dismissed as "Harry-worshippers" are just balanced observers with critical minds who try to see clearly and criticise when criticism is due (e.g., see my post at half time yesterday)...

...Specifically, we don't "have faith in Harry" or "think he walks on water" or "think he's perfect". We just recognise what he has achieved, as opposed to focusing exclusively on what we have yet to achieve...

2bearis2do · Feb 13, 2011

davidmatzdorf said:
): having a scornful pop at Levy's and Redknapp's transfer strategy, Redknapp's man-management tactics, Crouch's technique, Jenas' competence, Defoe's lack of goals and Redknapp's supposedly unreasonable refusal to prioritise certain less-used players over frequently-used players.

I'm really not getting you here David and usually you're so concise - Are you saying that all the points you've mentioned above shouldn't be discussed? Or shouldn't be supported because then it turns into a campaign?

davidmatzdorf · Feb 13, 2011

2bearis2do said:
I'm really not getting you here David and usually you're so concise - Are you saying that all the points you've mentioned above shouldn't be discussed? Or shouldn't be supported because then it turns into a campaign?

Similarly: you have to read what I wrote, not what you expected to read. Why can't people read carefully? I write carefully:

The accurate distinction is between (a) people whose reasons to watch football are that they think the game is beautiful and exciting and that they want Spurs to do well, who generally prefer to observe the good and the bad clearly and then describe what they see, and (b) people who are primarily motivated to watch football by rage and hate, whose main requirement is to find hate-objects in other teams and in our own teams, so they can fulfill their need to have something to blame in life.

...

By contrast, the majority of the people who actually keep the proper debate moving here are the first type. We discuss football. When we play badly, we criticise without calling players abusive names and we concentrate on being scathing about what they do instead of what they are. We don't require hate-objects in our own team and some of us even refrain from cluttering up the board with ridiculously overstated expressions of contempt about our rivals.

Why do people always confuse criticism of an opinion with a refusal to permit people to express that opinion? There is not a word in my post that suggests that there are topics that "shouldn't be discussed".

It's clear from three or four statements in my post that the main issue is not people's expression of their individual views, but a concerted campaign to swamp the boards by posting repetitive expressions of scorn on every thread, thus hijacking any attempt to discuss anything else.

pistolP · Feb 13, 2011

Sir Alan Sugar's comment on West Ham getting the OS. Sir Sugar, you are a star any day. And my apology in advance for posting video here, i hope no one is offended.

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16472_6746125,00.html

OnTheUp · Feb 13, 2011

Anybody not familiar with internet vernacular should read this definition of what trolling is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

...these tw#ts are clearly not Spurs fans and should be banned. It's not censorship because the views they're expressing are not the honest opinions of a Spurs supporter but are instead the poisonous seeds of snake tongued saboteurs. Get them off here! None of the loyal, long standing fans who genuinely love the club and are thankful to those who have given us the best years in a generation want them on here any more.

******Posted previously on another thread*****

It's funny when considering the amount of time and thought they put into their disruptive strategies, thinking it has any real world implication. As if Harry is really going to get sacked because they've encouraged any kind of pressure on here.

Out in the real world if they had the bottle to spout this stuff on matchday at WHL they'd be laughed at, put in a straight jacket and thrown out.

It annoys me though that as you say every thread is being hijacked by them, stifling any kind of serious debate. Time to act admins!!!!

JuanRebelde · Feb 13, 2011

Abuse or threats are of course out of bounds but anything else is reasonable as this is after all a discussion forum. Alternatively, this site will die due to blandness with everyone following the party line.

As for campaigns? It appears that a small minority (the 'Good-guys') are not able to differentiate between a constant and sometimes possibly incorrect or unjustifiable opinion that is firmly held and a real campaign that is something completely different and usually multi-facetted.

I suggest that that minority should also question themselves and remember that football, regardless of recent times, has its roots in the working class which doesn't always lend itself to well-rounded debate. That is why football is a sport of diverse opinions and also why it is so appealing.

2bearis2do · Feb 13, 2011

davidmatzdorf said:
Similarly: you have to read what I wrote, not what you expected to read. Why can't people read carefully? I write carefully:

Why do people always confuse criticism of an opinion with a refusal to permit people to express that opinion? There is not a word in my post that suggests that there are topics that "shouldn't be discussed".

It's clear from three or four statements in my post that the main issue is not people's expression of their individual views, but a concerted campaign to swamp the boards by posting repetitive expressions of scorn on every thread, thus hijacking any attempt to discuss anything else.

I just didn't find it very clear - you may have thought it was. But you have a very elongated style of getting your point across (IMO) And hence the reader often speed reads to try and get to your points a bit quicker - if he can find them.

I found your latest post a lot clearer.

Gaz_Gammon · Feb 13, 2011

nevilles a gimp but a good right back

You mean the Man Ure retiring right back?

Everyman and his dog knows that the Neville Spurs went for was the EVERTON MIDFIELDR. Your knowledge of football and the Spurs is astounding......................

newbie · Feb 13, 2011

Debate is good, some people are just bitter and don't give a balanced view like we are 4th in the league win our game in hand and we are 3rd people still bang on about, pav, dos santos being amazing and Harry, jenas, crouch being shit. And not signing a striker we have come so far if it was that easy we would not be the only team bar everton to break in to the top 4 we are the only team outside the big 4 to make the last 16 champs league and we will be the only team to make top 4 twice a side from the big 4 teams (I hope)

we have come so far why are we not enjoying it?

davidmatzdorf · Feb 13, 2011

Gaz_Gammon said:
Everyman and his dog knows that the Neville Spurs went for was the EVERTON MIDFIELDR. Your knowledge of football and the Spurs is astounding......................

That will be the Everton "midfielder" who played right back very effectively against us this season and was one of the few players who could stop Gareth Bale from causing trouble up his flank.

Which bit of "give it a fucking rest" do you not grasp? You're on every thread, posting the same snide stuff over and over. It's way past tired.

JimmyG2 · Feb 13, 2011

I am happy to read, or start to read and then move on, all posts on here and am not in favour of censorship of ideas and opinions at all.
People who are not as articulate or as clear thinking as some of us like to think we are, are still entitled to express themselves.

I object to personal abuse and ignore obscenity and if the moderators want to ban it then I'm ok with that.
But never for opinions nomatter how badly expressed.

The good should drive out the bad.
Constant carping and pushing an agenda on every thread are tedious but not criminal offences.

I am as critical of Harry and Levy and Crouch for that matter as anyone on here and that is what the site is for, in part.

The constant 'In Harry we trust' line and 'Harry is our saviour' are just as nauseating to me and are designed to prevent argument let alone criticism.
The latter is not true in any case.

I try to be positive and say 'Crouch is rubbish because' rather than Crouch is rubbish' full stop, but sympathise to an extent with people who love Spurs and the beautiful game just as much as I do but cannot understand our failure to upgrade our strikers, cannot believe Harry's treatment of some players, (currently Kranjcar and Pavlyuchenko) and reject Levy's attempt to muscle in on a cheap Stadium deal.

Being fourth does not excuse everything, or anything, and if it ain't perfect it can be improved.

And just because I can write in more or less grammatical English does not mean I am right.
Though I am, obviously.

Gaz_Gammon · Feb 13, 2011

You're well within your rights to be frustrated/angry that we didn't get a striker, and that we seem a long way off getting a stadium, but I am genuinely interested to know how long you have supported Spurs for and if that explains your negativity/sarcasm?

My Uncle took me to WHL in 1965 0r it could have been 1967 to see Spurs play Liverpool. I was a season ticket holder travelling down from Peterborough from around 1980 until 1995. After that date i had work commitments that meant that to buy a season ticket would have been a waste of money. I don't get down to the Lane as often as I should and split my time between England and America. I have however seen every game (full games) this past two seasons (on TV) and am still a commited fan.

I see great improvement in the team without a doubt (as we all should do) but i also have many doubts over the ability of Levy to deliver success on a consistant basis on where it matters and that is on the pitch. I dont' consider it a constructive plan to engage in the competition to own a stadium out of the Borough given the constraints of the criteria that was stated and that Spurs were clearly from the off not going to adhere to. It was a hit and hope plan (in my opinion). It segregated support (when we needed it most) and has left Spurs and their Chairman with egg on their face and has dented their credibility within the Borough. Again this is only as i see it.

On tranfer policy the only policy i see is buy cheap and sell high. Ashavin is one example where we ended up with the worst of the two players on offer (at that time) and had to buy at the end of the transefer window (i think Pav came very late indeed if my memory is correct). Same with VDV where we got very lucky, and the fact that we were in the CL. This last tranfer window proved that Levy wants to buy cheap and sell high. Liverpool moved swiftly and concisely and brought Surez and Carroll. There was no cast iron guarantee that Liverpool would be playing in Europe next season let alone CL Footie yet Daglish still managed to get two proven (though with Carroll perhaps too early) goal scorers.

We were in desperate need of at least one goal scorer. Nothing happend. There were stories of 38 million being offered here and 25 million being offered there (as is the case over the past couple of years) but not since Sugar was Chairman has the club brought a true out and out goalscorer. No rumours, or inuendo at that time just wham bam heres your Klinsman!

If Levy was as determined to sign a goalscorer as he said he was that would in all likelyhood got us Champions League football for next season then he would have done it. Liverpool and Chel$ea moved very quickly (less than a week) to rebuild their forward line. After 30 days and ten hours in January the best Levy could offer was a derisory offer for Neville and a last ten minutes try for Adams. Please don't try to convince me that by buying either or both our biggest problem that of scoring goals would have simply vanished.

I rarely use offensive language on this (or any) board, and can be sarcastic but as a passionate and liftime fan (all of forty odd years) i can usually cut through the fog and bullshit to recognise someone who has failed on two fronts over the past few seasons, and that person for me, and this is only my opinion is Daniel Levy.

Banish me from this forum but my thoughts on this will not change.

SimonSpur · Feb 13, 2011

Gaz_Gammon said:
You mean the Man Ure retiring right back?

Everyman and his dog knows that the Neville Spurs went for was the EVERTON MIDFIELDR. Your knowledge of football and the Spurs is astounding......................

Ummm...Phil Neville played right back for Everton today, and has played in a number of positions for them and United before (his versatility and experience a couple of reasons we may have been in for him).

I'd move from that glass house you stand in next time you insult someone's knowledge of football.

Anyway, this illustrates my hijacking point clearly.

Geez · Feb 13, 2011

JimmyG2 said:
I am happy to read, or start to read and then move on, all posts on here and am not in favour of censorship of ideas and opinions at all.
People who are not as articulate or as clear thinking as some of us like to think we are, are still entitled to express themselves.

I object to personal abuse and ignore obscenity and if the moderators want to ban it then I'm ok with that.
But never for opinions no matter how badly expressed.

The good should drive out the bad.
Constant carping and pushing an agenda on every thread are tedious but not criminal offences.

:clap:

This is a democratic website and just because a few (not 20 - lies, damn lies etc David!!!) members happen to disagree with the views of the majority, doesn't mean that they should automatically be banned

However, if a member persistently posts unpopular comments in non-related threads (Trolling), the posts will be deleted and the member will start receiving infractions which will eventually result in a permanent ban

kicked · Feb 13, 2011

Personally, too many people seem to have a better idea of running a multi million pound company and have a better know how of a football player and structure of a football team than the people being paid a hell of a lot of money that do. Makes me wonder why they are on here writing comments and not there putting them into practice?? :grin:

Seriously though, I understand the frustrations and all that but some things seem to go to far. Maybe some should sit back, look at the bigger picture and enjoy the position of where we ARE rather than the position of a few years ago of where we WERE!

As a team and as a club we are flying. Ok, the Olympic Stadium wasn't to all peoples taste, however, at least it shows the BOARD (people think its just Levy, when really, he's the spokesperson of the group) intent of taking this club forward. How many teams are doing that right now?

Its damn good being a Spurs fan right now. We are dangerous and other teams have noticed! We beat the ARSE in their own backyard for the first time in like a million years....lets at least smile!!! :beer:

millsey · Feb 13, 2011

Gaz_Gammon said:
You mean the Man Ure retiring right back?

Everyman and his dog knows that the Neville Spurs went for was the EVERTON MIDFIELDR. Your knowledge of football and the Spurs is astounding......................

what are u talking about?phill neville played right back for EVERTON against bale this season and was superb.your knowledge of football and the spurs is astounding.........

CheltYid · Feb 13, 2011

Azrael said:
So basically DM, you are saying that if you dare question Harry you are a bad seed out to destroy the site....

...and here was me stupidly thinking this was a site for discussion.

Your thread entitled "I see Defoe didn't score again" wasn't really one for 'debating' was it mate? We all know who you don't like because you never stop going on about it. We get it, now let other discuss things thank you very much.

JollyHappy · Feb 13, 2011

Why not just start a thread called "I hate......" then whatever name and if the mods see a post which strays into that then move it into that thread.

CliffJones · Feb 13, 2011

JimmyG2 said:
Constant carping and pushing an agenda on every thread are tedious but not criminal offences.

Good post and thanks for that. The problem you have highlighted whilst not criminal is the death of a thousand cuts that DM wrote about. It is very tempting to just not log in to SC because every thread is highjacked by the same vitriol towards chairman, manager and players.
I would say this campaign started in the lead up to the recent transfer window, really flourished in the ITK threads, migrated to the match threads and then every other thread.
If SC wants to survive as an entertainment then this sustained barrage of boredom has to stop.

cabinfever · Feb 13, 2011

davidmatzdorf said:
This place is presently being dominated by a substantial minority of people with totally distorted views of reality: bitter and twisted, full of rage, just waiting for an excuse to go off. There are roughly 20 of them and they have completely undisciplined minds, packed with vicious intentions.

Typically, the milder versions of this concerted attempt to destroy Spurs Community are camouflaged as "Harry has taken us as far as he can", often derived from the risible notion that our primary transfer targets in January were Phil Neville and David Beckham. An example of such a snide and malicious post is just above. Taken on its own, it's simply an annoyance. Taken in concert with twenty or thirty similar posts per day, it's part of a destructive campaign.

Two snide posts just above typify another technique, also used with malicious intent to distort and polarise the board. They set up a stereotypical division of people between "positive" v. "negative", although it is falsely portrayed as "naive" v. "realistic". It is a technique intended to mislead, because it enables the bitter-and-twisted mob to portray those of us who want to see clearly as insisting that "Harry can do no wrong" and as being unrealistically Pollyanna-ish about the quality of players and coaches at the club.

There is a very small number of people here who actually do focus to an unrealistic degree on the good aspects of bad performances. But focusing on them is really just reinforcing a misdirection. The vast majority of people who are dismissed as "Harry-worshippers" are just balanced observers with critical minds who try to see clearly and criticise when criticism is due (e.g., see my post at half time yesterday).

The accurate distinction is between (a) people whose reasons to watch football are that they think the game is beautiful and exciting and that they want Spurs to do well, who generally prefer to observe the good and the bad clearly and then describe what they see, and (b) people who are primarily motivated to watch football by rage and hate, whose main requirement is to find hate-objects in other teams and in our own teams, so they can fulfill their need to have something to blame in life.

The majority of the people who post ill-tempered rants on the forum, during matches in the heat of the match threads, but especially between matches, when the heat of the moment is no excuse, are the second type. They have a need to be angry at Spurs, so it is necessary for any degree of success to be portrayed as inadequate and disappointing and for the manager's degree of competence and ambition to be a target of scorn, even when the club has lost one of its last fifteen league matches.

By contrast, the majority of the people who actually keep the proper debate moving here are the first type. We discuss football. When we play badly, we criticise without calling players abusive names and we concentrate on being scathing about what they do instead of what they are. We don't require hate-objects in our own team and some of us even refrain from cluttering up the board with ridiculously overstated expressions of contempt about our rivals.

Specifically, we don't "have faith in Harry" or "think he walks on water" or "think he's perfect". We just recognise what he has achieved, as opposed to focusing exclusively on what we have yet to achieve.

I'm pleased to see some malicious posts being deleted, or rather posts that I assume must have been malicious, as I didn't have the privilege of reading any of them. Eventually, in a community, even a democratic one, the collective has to make some value judgments regarding what is and is not acceptable. Sometimes, when people persist in spreading unpleasantness to the point where they swamp everyone else's desires for what the community should represent, they have to be told to shut up and, if they do not fall into line, eventually they have to be censored and exiled from the process.

Best post in months which, I suspect, captures the feelings of many people who use this site.

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