Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

Interesting article, I sure many on here won't agree with it or at least some of it but interested in here thoughts on both sides.

A few snipets for those who can't be arse reading (though I encourage you to), Poch averages 2.3 debuts academy graduates per year (in whole management career) and the only manager currently in PL that berets it is LVG with 2.75 (again across his career). 67% of Poch's debutants end up with regular football which is "far more" than anyone else. We have 4th youngest ream in Europes 5 top leagues.


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ght-future-for-england-at-spurs-a6725641.html

Daily Mail report Spurs have contacted the representatives of Victor Osimhen about a potential transfer. #THFC https://t.co/2IwYBLieZf

Make me think of coulibaly, and btw what is the situation of yahaya now? Is he or will he be a spurs player?

coy-spurs1882 said:

Daily Mail report Spurs have contacted the representatives of Victor Osimhen about a potential transfer. #THFC https://t.co/2IwYBLieZf

Make me think of coulibaly, and btw what is the situation of yahaya now? Is he or will he be a spurs player?

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Guess we'll have to wait till jan to find out.

Chelsea have 34 players on loan that is incredible, (makes it really hard to gauge how good there youth teams are) I hope we are looking at how there loans are going and using it to learn from.

newbie said:

Chelsea have 34 players on loan that is incredible, (makes it really hard to gauge how good there youth teams are) I hope we are looking at how there loans are going and using it to learn from.

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You can't make comparisons with Chelsea's abuse of the loan system - its almost a one off and its about time something was done to stop it. It creates an inflated market and doesn't allow players to develop and their failure to bring players through is almost in direct parallel to them going out on loan. In fact Chelsea appear to use the loan system more as a safety net than as a development tool which appears to me to be wroing .

The loan system for me is somewhat flawed and though it can add to a players development it doesn't always. I certainly hope Spurs never follow in Chelsea's path

ralphs bald spot said:

You can't make comparisons with Chelsea's abuse of the loan system - its almost a one off and its about time something was done to stop it. It creates an inflated market and doesn't allow players to develop and their failure to bring players through is almost in direct parallel to them going out on loan. In fact Chelsea appear to use the loan system more as a safety net than as a development tool which appears to me to be wroing .

The loan system for me is somewhat flawed and though it can add to a players development it doesn't always. I certainly hope Spurs never follow in Chelsea's path

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I completely agree it's abuse of FFP, don't think for a second I am saying they are successful with loans what I am saying 34 loans gives a massive pool of info to study, to learn from.

Not many players are coming though prem academies to the prem must be less than 2 a club so I doubt there are 40 17-23 yrs coming though from a prem teams a admit and playing in 5-10 games it's proberly half that if we are lucky. I mean proper games least 15-25 min 5-10 games.

How many debuts were given by LvG in cups that he seemingly doesn't care about? Like their loss last year to MK Dons.

newbie said:

Chelsea have 34 players on loan that is incredible, (makes it really hard to gauge how good there youth teams are) I hope we are looking at how there loans are going and using it to learn from.

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key thing is that most of these players are NOT products of Chelsea youth system, Chelsea buy in the best they can find (usually aged about 18/19/20) and then loan them out, before spitting them out, very few get to play in Chelsea first team (one of the few exceptions is Courtois who played about 3 seasons on loan at AM before getting into the first team).

When Spurs but young players (think Alli, Dyer, Wimmer) we tend to include them in our squad (maybe after a loan back to the club we bought them off), and most our loanees have always come through our youth system - totally different to Chelsea.

Very few Chelsea youth players get anywhere close to the first team, because they always want to buy experienced players, with Abramovich's ill gotten gains having funded Chelsea.

I know it was only a tiny amount of mins, but that was the 3rd appearance by Onomah in a row & 4th in the last 5 games.

ralphs bald spot said:

You can't make comparisons with Chelsea's abuse of the loan system - its almost a one off and its about time something was done to stop it. It creates an inflated market and doesn't allow players to develop and their failure to bring players through is almost in direct parallel to them going out on loan. In fact Chelsea appear to use the loan system more as a safety net than as a development tool which appears to me to be wroing .

The loan system for me is somewhat flawed and though it can add to a players development it doesn't always. I certainly hope Spurs never follow in Chelsea's path

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I mentioned this a couple of times but Chelsea have followed our path in regards to the loan system

In 2012/2013, we had these players on loan:
Gomes - Hoffenheim
Bryne - Swindon, Crawley Town
Pritchard - Peterborough
Luongo - Swindon, Ipswich
Dawkins - Aston Villa
Khumalo - POAK
Archer - Wycombe
Miles - Dag & Red
Mason - FC Lorient
Obika - Charlton
Falque - Almeria
Bentley - Blackburn, Rostov
Munns - Aldershot
Parrett - Swindon
Bostock - Swindon
Jenas - Nottingham
Townsend - QPR
Stewart - Crewe
Fredericks - Brentford
Smith - Millwall
Kane - Norwich, Leicester
Rose - Sunderland

We had 22 players out on loan that season and we still were the best team U21 league, which is why I didnt agree with the excuse earlier in the season we were missing players(we have always been missing players)

nightgoat said:

Tyler Blackett, Paddy McNair, Jesse Lingard, Tom Thorpe, Andreas Pereira, Reece James and Saidy Janko last season. Cameron Borthwick-Jackson today, not sure who the 9th is.

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Must be Wilson. Thing is of the ones I have seen play, only Pereira I think has a decent future. Janko was a strong player. Their quality pales in comparison to ours.

jari17 said:

He gives out pointless debuts to players who aren't really talented and end up amounting to nothing, If we look at the United academy they are pretty awful and are not developing players in the right way. It seems in U21 and U18 levels they just play the oldest players possible to win games and stop the younger players making the step up.

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The minutes need to have substance I agree. I think my point was somewhat lost though. When talking about LVG, my point wasn't that Poch should give more players random games, I was just saying that he gave at least 7 games it seems to academy players. And it's not like Man Utd suffered. So my argument was that more time can be found to give young players a chance e.g. all those minutes given to 7 different players could have been given to Onomah for example for us or split between Onomah and another, without sacrificing a lot. Though of course each situation is different.

I don't believe he can give everyone a chance was just hoping that maybe 2 this season would get a decent amount of minutes. I believe we have 10 players in our academy/u21s who have the ability to play PL football but I would never expect all of them to come through at the same time or ever as it's just ridiculous, but the 2 best I would hope get a shot

spurs9 said:

Interesting article, I sure many on here won't agree with it or at least some of it but interested in here thoughts on both sides.

A few snipets for those who can't be arse reading (though I encourage you to), Poch averages 2.3 debuts academy graduates per year (in whole management career) and the only manager currently in PL that berets it is LVG with 2.75 (again across his career). 67% of Poch's debutants end up with regular football which is "far more" than anyone else. We have 4th youngest ream in Europes 5 top leagues.

I'm going to read it now, but of those stats alone that is brilliant and I can't wait to see it. If he maintains that average with us I'd be ecstatic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ght-future-for-england-at-spurs-a6725641.html

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ralphs bald spot said:

You can't make comparisons with Chelsea's abuse of the loan system - its almost a one off and its about time something was done to stop it. It creates an inflated market and doesn't allow players to develop and their failure to bring players through is almost in direct parallel to them going out on loan. In fact Chelsea appear to use the loan system more as a safety net than as a development tool which appears to me to be wroing .

The loan system for me is somewhat flawed and though it can add to a players development it doesn't always. I certainly hope Spurs never follow in Chelsea's path

Click to expand...

Read a good idea elsewhere. There should be an ownership restriction. Which will stop clubs like Chelsea from hoarding, and those players that caught in middle ground can go out and earn a career. When players are on loan they are in limbo and the loaning club always have to prepare fro life without them and so the players do not settle. If Chelsea had to be really careful about who they keep on then it will give players a chance to develop elsewhere

IGSpur said:

Must be Wilson. Thing is of the ones I have seen play, only Pereira I think has a decent future. Janko was a strong player. Their quality pales in comparison to ours.



The minutes need to have substance I agree. I think my point was somewhat lost though. When talking about LVG, my point wasn't that Poch should give more players random games, I was just saying that he gave at least 7 games it seems to academy players. And it's not like Man Utd suffered. So my argument was that more time can be found to give young players a chance e.g. all those minutes given to 7 different players could have been given to Onomah for example for us or split between Onomah and another, without sacrificing a lot. Though of course each situation is different.

I don't believe he can give everyone a chance was just hoping that maybe 2 this season would get a decent amount of minutes. I believe we have 10 players in our academy/u21s who have the ability to play PL football but I would never expect all of them to come through at the same time or ever as it's just ridiculous, but the 2 best I would hope get a shot

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I found the below quote by Poch interesting (from the article I posted earlier in this thread) and I think it shows that regardless of how things are looking from the outside, we do have a set plan our youngsters especially Onomah & Winks.

“You need to translate the feeling that you believe in them,” Pochettino says. “If not, it’s nothing. If they feel that you only want to add some names in your list, this is the worst thing you can show. When they feel that you believe, but really believe, in them, it gives them extra.

“For us, it’s never to see one player in the Under-18s or Under-21s and say, ‘Okay, next game we put him in’. No, it’s a process. So Josh Onomah, last season, two or three months before the end, started to work with us and made pre-season with us.

“The same with Harry Winks and different young players that now are with us in the squad, training every day and after, playing with the Under-21s. It’s to give them the confidence and trust and to [make them] feel they are part of the squad, and always there arrives the moment they show quality enough to play in the Premier League.”

beats1 said:

I mentioned this a couple of times but Chelsea have followed our path in regards to the loan system

In 2012/2013, we had these players on loan:
Gomes - Hoffenheim
Bryne - Swindon, Crawley Town
Pritchard - Peterborough
Luongo - Swindon, Ipswich
Dawkins - Aston Villa
Khumalo - POAK
Archer - Wycombe
Miles - Dag & Red
Mason - FC Lorient
Obika - Charlton
Falque - Almeria
Bentley - Blackburn, Rostov
Munns - Aldershot
Parrett - Swindon
Bostock - Swindon
Jenas - Nottingham
Townsend - QPR
Stewart - Crewe
Fredericks - Brentford
Smith - Millwall
Kane - Norwich, Leicester
Rose - Sunderland

We had 22 players out on loan that season and we still were the best team U21 league, which is why I didnt agree with the excuse earlier in the season we were missing players(we have always been missing players)

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Yes but big difference is that most of our players had come through our youth system, and loans are a reasonable way to find out which of those players might make it with Spurs, but also give the others a chance to show lower league clubs what they might offer if those clubs wanted a permanent deal.

The exceptions to that were Gomes, Khumalo, Falque, Bentley, Jenas (5 out of 22) - all first team squad players who we thought we didn't want and this was a way of allowing them to find a future employer.

So I think our use of the loan system was/is very different to Chelsea's

Spursidol said:

Yes but big difference is that most of our players had come through our youth system, and loans are a reasonable way to find out which of those players might make it with Spurs, but also give the others a chance to show lower league clubs what they might offer if those clubs wanted a permanent deal.

The exceptions to that were Gomes, Khumalo, Falque, Bentley, Jenas (5 out of 22) - all first team squad players who we thought we didn't want and this was a way of allowing them to find a future employer.

So I think our use of the loan system was/is very different to Chalsea's

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Bostock (already made Palace debut) & Lunogo (18 when we signed him) could be added to that list of 5.

spurs9 said:

I know it was only a tiny amount of mins, but that was the 3rd appearance by Onomah in a row & 4th in the last 5 games.

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Ali and Dembele seem to rotate from CM to number 10, I think Onomah is ideal for this, England could easily have Mason, Dier, Ali, and Onomah in the not two distant future. Also think Josh will learn a lot from Ali his fight and work rate is bloody impressive.

Spursidol said:

key thing is that most of these players are NOT products of Chelsea youth system, Chelsea buy in the best they can find (usually aged about 18/19/20) and then loan them out, before spitting them out, very few get to play in Chelsea first team (one of the few exceptions is Courtois who played about 3 seasons on loan at AM before getting into the first team).

When Spurs but young players (think Alli, Dyer, Wimmer) we tend to include them in our squad (maybe after a loan back to the club we bought them off), and most our loanees have always come through our youth system - totally different to Chelsea.

Very few Chelsea youth players get anywhere close to the first team, because they always want to buy experienced players, with Abramovich's ill gotten gains having funded Chelsea.

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I agree there is no path, my point was more not about there success but with so many loans it gives a lot of informations to look at re loans. Intergration well Onomaah looks like he will have more minutes than loftus cheek this season at this rate so they fall massively behind he looks like his back in the under 21s.

beats1 said:

I mentioned this a couple of times but Chelsea have followed our path in regards to the loan system

In 2012/2013, we had these players on loan:
Gomes - Hoffenheim
Bryne - Swindon, Crawley Town
Pritchard - Peterborough
Luongo - Swindon, Ipswich
Dawkins - Aston Villa
Khumalo - POAK
Archer - Wycombe
Miles - Dag & Red
Mason - FC Lorient
Obika - Charlton
Falque - Almeria
Bentley - Blackburn, Rostov
Munns - Aldershot
Parrett - Swindon
Bostock - Swindon
Jenas - Nottingham
Townsend - QPR
Stewart - Crewe
Fredericks - Brentford
Smith - Millwall
Kane - Norwich, Leicester
Rose - Sunderland

We had 22 players out on loan that season and we still were the best team U21 league, which is why I didnt agree with the excuse earlier in the season we were missing players(we have always been missing players)

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Difference 1/4 went in to play regular first team football with us and a few more got caps.

IGSpur said:

Read a good idea elsewhere. There should be an ownership restriction. Which will stop clubs like Chelsea from hoarding, and those players that caught in middle ground can go out and earn a career. When players are on loan they are in limbo and the loaning club always have to prepare fro life without them and so the players do not settle. If Chelsea had to be really careful about who they keep on then it will give players a chance to develop elsewhere

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Of you were only allowed so many players over the age 21 in your squad and x amount of loans it might help, ofc clubs might use but back clauses.

P.s my iPad bieng a nightmare hence the random million replies, and words missing here and there.

Don't know if anyone is still watching u17 WC but we should sign this Dante Vanzeir, great assist and 2 absolute class goals to get Belgium 3rd spot. Plays for Genk, and our 'weakest' point is striker/RW. Everyone will be after him though

spurs9 said:

I found the below quote by Poch interesting (from the article I posted earlier in this thread) and I think it shows that regardless of how things are looking from the outside, we do have a set plan our youngsters especially Onomah & Winks.

“You need to translate the feeling that you believe in them,” Pochettino says. “If not, it’s nothing. If they feel that you only want to add some names in your list, this is the worst thing you can show. When they feel that you believe, but really believe, in them, it gives them extra.

“For us, it’s never to see one player in the Under-18s or Under-21s and say, ‘Okay, next game we put him in’. No, it’s a process. So Josh Onomah, last season, two or three months before the end, started to work with us and made pre-season with us.

“The same with Harry Winks and different young players that now are with us in the squad, training every day and after, playing with the Under-21s. It’s to give them the confidence and trust and to [make them] feel they are part of the squad, and always there arrives the moment they show quality enough to play in the Premier League.”

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I like the sentiment of what is being said.

Looking at the detail though :

Harry Kane - Had first team debut in EL under HR, given short run before plenty of loans, then TS gave him 6 PL starts in which he scored 3 PL goals. Poch then included him as 3rd striker before Adebayor/Soldado's goal scoring form (or lack of) forced Poch to bring him into PL. Give Poch some kudos for helping develop him, but mostly Kane himself and previous coaching/experience which has made him the striker he is today.

Ryan Mason - Had EL debut under HR, then plenty of loans. Brought into pre-season squad by Poch as all other CM's (except Capoue) were away on WC duty. Mason showed great form in pre-season and unlucky to be injured before season started before being brought into the first team where we were struggling in CM. Kudos to Poch for having the balls to bring him in over more established but under-performing CM's - and then to pair him with Bentaleb. No doubt Poch has also helped develop his play

Nabil Bentaleb - Brought into the first team to the surprise even of the youth watchers by TS and gained PL experience. Kudos to Poch for picking him over more established but under-performing CM's and pairing him with Mason.

Eric Dier - Bought in as a first team player with limited experience at Sporting Lisbon (but still 30 appearances) as CB and DM. Has done fantastically well at Spurs, but Poch's role has been mainly to polish a rough diamond, but kudos to Poch for trusting him (and Eric has repaid that by appearances at CB, RB and DM).

Dele Alli - Pretty much as Dier. Kudos to Poch for picking a former League 1 star, but probably most kudos to whoever agreed to buy him at Spurs.

Now onto Poch's achievements with those who have come through the youth system but not played in a competitive first team match before Poch arrived :

Milos Veljkovic - Played pre-season for HR at aged 15, then a game or two n the North American pre-season tour 2014 under Poch and complimented by Poch after u21 games before being loaned out 2014/15, but not seen again in first team action.

Dominic Ball - Complimented by Poch after u21 games and on bench last season but no first team appearances. Now on loan at Rangers

Josh Onomah - Brought into first team squad aged 18 this season with handful of appearances totalling about 30 minutes - so kudos for Poch for that. Hopefully he'll get his first start soon - pretty much all his England contemporaries have already made this step already.

Harry Winks - As Onomah, except with less appearances and less minutes.

So Poch's reputation with youth at Spurs (right now) seems to rest mainly with polishing youngsters with limited first team experience (not bringing them into the first team as some have claimed)

What we now need to hope for is that he gives first team bench time and debuts to some of the youngsters brought through Spurs youth system who look like they will make it, and there are plenty of them, And more will be available next season when they are a year older and more experienced

spurs9 said:

I know it was only a tiny amount of mins, but that was the 3rd appearance by Onomah in a row & 4th in the last 5 games.

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He has to start against Qarabag imo and if anything I would take a second string team there as 2 draws will be enough to get us through. I would even consider giving Lloris a rest with the travel time the squad will face. I think we can trust our players against Qarabag away to get at least a draw and even if they don't, we win the next match, we are still through

newbie said:

Difference 1/4 went in to play regular first team football with us and a few more got caps.

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They still have time and there players have been brought as an investment similar to some of our signings were. Also a lot of their loan signings were them pipping us to those players

spurs9 said:

Bostock (already made Palace debut) & Lunogo (18 when we signed him) could be added to that list of 5.

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Bostock played youth football when he joined us - and Luongo was playing with us (at youth level) from about the age of 16 - only signed a pro contract at 18 as before then the law is vague as to whether he can do so at an earlier age.

So, they were not bought for Spurs first team - but joined as youth team players