The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

IGSpur said:

Kane Patterson has been called up to Scotland u16s, now 02s. Makes me wonder why Phoenix was never called up for the Scotland 00 age group. Despite our England age group being so strong, I wouldn't be surprised to see Patterson on the fringes, yet somehow doesn't get a Scotland call-up.

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Is it possible Scotland weren't aware of his eligibility, maybe its only just come to light? I had no idea the Patterson's had Scottish links.

yanno said:

You may well be correct.

My own judgement is that the businessman in Levy was so badly scarred by Campbell leaving on a free (losing a core asset for nothing in accounting terms) that he vowed to implement and stick to a rule of not allowing players to enter their last year of contract.

But a top young talent liike Marcus Edwards surely calls for a little flexibllity. If Edwards is frozen out of first team training, then he will inevitably feel unwanted and leave. Chicken and egg.

Whereas if he's involved, both in pre-season and onwards, and he steadily improves and adapts to Poch's methods, then he's more likely to see some first team game time off the bench. If that happens, and he feels both wanted and that he's becoming a better player, then the chances of his signing a longer contract increase.

I hope the club plays this with intelligence and a little more flexibiity than would be shown to one of our first team players who, for understandable reasons, would not be allowed to enter the last year of his contract.

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Or the chances of another biggish club offering him a better dal than we will ?

As you say it's a chicken and egg scenario; player wants to see evidence he's moving forward before signing; club want to see player contractually commit to club (so at the very least they can receive some compensation if he goes) before moving him forward. You can understand both perspectives. I think a little playing time back end of last season could have gone a hell of a long way to smoothing this over, unfortunately that didn't happen, Edwards and his people got a bit ansty and we now have the Mexican standoff.

And with regards to post tournament rest, I was told there are supposed to have 21 days (I think) ?

IGSpur said:

I can understand it. The only gripe we have with is, is that it means Edwards misses out. We discussed a whiel back, how Mount has played more regularly, is a better all roudn player adn can drop into CM. He also has a lot of Chelsea players round him. England being the risk averse country we usually are, probably wanted balance and security and so felt less comfortable with Edwards on RW, when IBR and Sterling are both good players, right footed and strong.

While we don't like it it is working and Edwards coming on is their insurance, but its frustrating to see England still being so risk averse. In terms of using the other 99s, against I don't mind.

What usually happens is when players aren't available they just look for the next in line for the age group. We know this age group doesn't have much depth. And once their other top players weren't available they could either go for weaker players or they promote the better ones from year below and I think they have made the right decisions. It isn't common in English football outside u21s.

I wish the u17s did that. In CM, they missed Gomes, Kirby, Skipp, O'Riley, Gibbs-White and had TOB, McEachran and even Barlow. However they then had to bring Denny as so many missed out. And while all of the players above are of a similar standard, Denny dropped below that standard so once TOB was injured Denny started to slow down our play. What they could have done is then dipped into the 01s and brought in Maghoma who would have been better than Denny. But as we were so rigid with our selection policy they thought it better to bring the 9th best CM in the age group rather than the best in the year below.

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I don't think it is working necessarily. If just winning 1-0 late on in tight games is teaching these kids anything then maybe to some small degree it's working, but that will never prepare English players to be anything other than they have been for the last few decades. Technically and tactically so risk averse they are inept.

Why the hell couldn't they play Sessegnon, Mount and Edwards in a AM3 behind the striker ? Mount and Sessegnon are will both drop into midfield and I noticed Edwards working hard off the ball in the games I've seen so far - he's clearly been made aware that he needs to, to be viable - and instead of grinding out games and coming out the right side of the odd goal, England could actually dare to create kids with a bit more ambition, verve, inventiveness who are pro-active instead of reactive.

The job of youth football coaches is not to win tournaments, it's to prepare and develop kids.

As an aside, I like Edun too. Not a Pogba or a Pirlo just a good footballing busy ****.

And can someone explain to me how Brereton is amongst this group. I know he's scored a couple of goals in the tournament but he looks pretty average and limited technically. Or is this another case of the Kane's - he looked pretty awful in some England tournaments.

That turn of Edwards was very nice, really hope we get to see more of him this season.

Despite the nice assist I would have preferred England to go out, then maybe Edwards could have gone straight into pre season training with the first team. Onomah and KWP didn't have much of a break and it's not exactly like Edwards played loads of football last season so he should be good to go. Considering we don't seem any nearer to signing anyone we could actually end up really needing his kind of ability of the bench.

We will need all of those youngsters to step up this season - CCV, Onomah, KWP, Winks, Edwards. They could all play roles if we don't make any signings.

Honestly can't see any reason Edwards can't go on US tour.He barely played last season,so the full season/rest/pre season really doesn't apply.And he's kind of out of synchs anyway because of injuries.Sure it would be in his best interest and clubs for him to go on US tour.Sure our physios are good enough to just dove tail his pre season,with his already good fitness level.

Players involved vs Orient:

Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Kyle Walker-Peters
Jaden Brown
Will Miller
Kazaiah Sterling
Josh Onomah
Michel Vorm
Joe Pritchard
Anthony Georgiou
Timothy Eyoma
Shayon Harrison
Dylan Duncan
Luke Amos

Scorers:

Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Kyle Walker-Peters
Jaden Brown
Will Miller

I imagine, with Kyle Walker seemingly off to Money Bags City, that Kyle Walker-Peters will be sitting there with everything crossed that Poch sees him as adequate cover for Kieran Tripper at RB. Would be a real kick in the teeth for the lad if we signed an experienced RB because it would essentially confirm that KWP isn't going to get a chance here, ever. Which would be a terrible shame.

Lads like KWP, CCV, Onomah and Edwards (although the latter for very different reasons) all need to come good this season. No more waiting around. KWP & Onomah turn 21 this season and are no longer "kids". CCV is nearly 19 & a half and Edwards isn't the next Rooney or Sterling, he's not 16 any more. He's 18 & a half and if he is the prodigy that I'm sure he, and we, all think he is then this is the season to step up and prove it.

Spurzinho said:

I imagine, with Kyle Walker seemingly off to Money Bags City, that Kyle Walker-Peters will be sitting there with everything crossed that Poch sees him as adequate cover for Kieran Tripper at RB. Would be a real kick in the teeth for the lad if we signed an experienced RB because it would essentially confirm that KWP isn't going to get a chance here, ever. Which would be a terrible shame.

Lads like KWP, CCV, Onomah and Edwards (although the latter for very different reasons) all need to come good this season. No more waiting around. KWP & Onomah turn 21 this season and are no longer "kids". CCV is nearly 19 & a half and Edwards isn't the next Rooney or Sterling, he's not 16 any more. He's 18 & a half and if he is the prodigy that I'm sure he, and we, all think he is then this is the season to step up and prove it.

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You can only step up and prove it if you are given a chance. And a real chance.

Bus-Conductor said:

You can only step up and prove it if you are given a chance. And a real chance.

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We aren't privy to what goes on within Poch's mind. We have to choose what we believe to be the case and then accept it's implications. Either Poch is willing and able to give youngsters a chance if they prove certain things in training, or Poch is reluctant or unwilling to give youngsters a chance no matter what they do in training.

The first implies that there is more all of the youngsters could do to push themselves into contention & that when they do they will get the opportunity. The second implies the opposite.

Players like Winks, Bentaleb, Mason, Dier & Alli were all young(ish) and had a lot to prove but Poch gave them a shot, so we know that the manager isn't Redknapp/AVB level distrustful of the youngsters. We know at Southampton & Espanyol that Poch wasn't at all reticent when it came to throwing youngsters in. Now, you could argue that in both cases that was due to necessity but I would argue that there have been times in the last couple of seasons where we needed reinforcements. Clearly there are senior players that have lost Poch's trust; Sissoko, Wimmer & GKN to mention but the three most recent and Poch, for what ever reason didn't give the youngsters a chance.

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but I can't imagine that Poch is holding back players that would aid his system, our performances and our chances of success. He must genuinely believe that there is something that seperates your Harry Winks from your Josh Onomah & your, barely trusted, Kevin Wimmer from your CCV and your, frankly, god awful Jansson from your Shayon Harrison.

the only rb i'd have been happy to see come in would've been dani alves for a season(obviously that was always a long shot though) as it wouldn't have really hurt kwp's long-term chances of breaking through and working with a quality player like that on a daily basis could've been valuable experience. if we're bringing in this pereira guy from porto though then i don't really know what that says about kwp's future here. same goes for ccv with us supposedly looking at the 19 year old argentine cb.

WindyCOYS said:

Players involved vs Orient:

Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Kyle Walker-Peters
Jaden Brown
Will Miller
Kazaiah Sterling
Josh Onomah
Michel Vorm
Joe Pritchard
Anthony Georgiou
Timothy Eyoma
Shayon Harrison
Dylan Duncan
Luke Amos

Scorers:

Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Kyle Walker-Peters
Jaden Brown
Will Miller

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It's not much to go on, but in the training photos Kyle Walker-Peters looks taller and stronger. I remember watching him against Chelsea a few years ago and they stuck a giant lad on him who just leaned on him constantly. Does he look bigger and stronger in action now, or were the training photos deceptive?

Bus-Conductor said:

Or the chances of another biggish club offering him a better dal than we will ?

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Why? IS he partial to a lentil curry?

Blake Griffin said:

the only rb i'd have been happy to see come in would've been dani alves for a season(obviously that was always a long shot though) as it wouldn't have really hurt kwp's long-term chances of breaking through and working with a quality player like that on a daily basis could've been valuable experience. if we're bringing in this pereira guy from porto though then i don't really know what that says about kwp's future here. same goes for ccv with us supposedly looking at the 19 year old argentine cb.

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Pereira can play further up the pitch though. If KWP is as good as he seems to be, I'm sure he'll get his chance.

StartingPrice said:

It's not much to go on, but in the training photos Kyle Walker-Peters looks taller and stronger. I remember watching him against Chelsea a few years ago and they stuck a giant lad on him who just leaned on him constantly. Does he look bigger and stronger in action now, or were the training photos deceptive?

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i don't think he's any taller now, still around 5'7. he is slowly but surely getting stronger though, back in the game you're referring to he was all arms and legs but now he has a bit more about him and at the u20 world cup there were a few instances where he was holding off players much bigger than him. he still has a bit to go but he's getting there and i think slowly building him up is the right way to go as a quick bulk would no doubt negatively impact his superb agility/balance and acceleration.

Blake Griffin said:

i don't think he's any taller now, still around 5'7. he is slowly but surely getting stronger though, back in the game you're referring to he was all arms and legs but now he has a bit more about him and at the u20 world cup there were a few instances where he was holding off players much bigger than him. he still has a bit to go but he's getting there and i think slowly building him up is the right way to go as a quick bulk would no doubt negatively impact his superb agility/balance and acceleration.

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I don't think the height is that important, our wee Danny is hardly a bean-pole , he just looked taller in the training photos. But it is very easy for such thinks to look deceptive. It is more important for him to become more robust, and he certainly looks that. What I was most interested in was that when Walker-Gate [hey, I didn't even mean it like that until after I'd done it ) first broke there was quite a debate about whether KWP could come in this season or whether we needed to buy to cover. I think ITK folk said he was still a little bit off. Didn't know whether that was physically, mentally or in terms of his nous. So when I saw him I thought maybe if he had filled out a bit over the last few months, and whether that would make a difference in replacing Walker.

I agree, by the way. Don't believe in artificially bulking players up too quickly, for reasons you give.

Think we'll definitely be buying a replacement and not promoting KWP. Poch has said he was one of the ones who will get more game time this season, but when he currently stands at zero minutes more game time isn't hard to achieve...

Personally I'd have used him towards the end of last season in the direct wide man wildcard role, instead of dross like Sissoko and Nkoudou. Could be gaining experience even if it's not initially at fullback.

I still believe KWP will end up as a AM/ RW for us. Every time I watch him play, his vision and dribbling always impress. Either way, if we sign Pereira, both will get opportunities as they are versatile players.

SlumDilla said:

I still believe KWP will end up as a AM/ RW for us. Every time I watch him play, his vision and dribbling always impress. Either way, if we sign Pereira, both will get opportunities as they are versatile players.

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I dont think he will, he started off there and was good but he stepped another level at RB

I think him not getting a chance would be worrying as our best players aren't getting a chance and at the same time not allowed to have a career out on loan, what is the point of having good players in the academy

Spurzinho said:

We aren't privy to what goes on within Poch's mind. We have to choose what we believe to be the case and then accept it's implications. Either Poch is willing and able to give youngsters a chance if they prove certain things in training, or Poch is reluctant or unwilling to give youngsters a chance no matter what they do in training.

The first implies that there is more all of the youngsters could do to push themselves into contention & that when they do they will get the opportunity. The second implies the opposite.

Players like Winks, Bentaleb, Mason, Dier & Alli were all young(ish) and had a lot to prove but Poch gave them a shot, so we know that the manager isn't Redknapp/AVB level distrustful of the youngsters. We know at Southampton & Espanyol that Poch wasn't at all reticent when it came to throwing youngsters in. Now, you could argue that in both cases that was due to necessity but I would argue that there have been times in the last couple of seasons where we needed reinforcements. Clearly there are senior players that have lost Poch's trust; Sissoko, Wimmer & GKN to mention but the three most recent and Poch, for what ever reason didn't give the youngsters a chance.

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but I can't imagine that Poch is holding back players that would aid his system, our performances and our chances of success. He must genuinely believe that there is something that seperates your Harry Winks from your Josh Onomah & your, barely trusted, Kevin Wimmer from your CCV and your, frankly, god awful Jansson from your Shayon Harrison.

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I know we always get into this but it is a debate so why not again? The difference between the players mentioned above, as has been mentioned before is those players bar Winks ALL have had significant experience in league football. Winks has not. There is a big difference between bringing through an academy player and developing young players. Before before I get accusations of targeting Poch again. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM EXCLUSIVE TO OUR MANAGER, it is league wide. It is incredibly difficult in the PL to bring through academy players and Poch HAS DONE A GREAT JOB BRINGING THROUGH WINKS so far.

However, your post and others is a perfect example of why the PL(English football) is in the situation it is in, and why despite all the success England youth teams have had, and all the positive energy its created, with people saying lets play more youth players, I believe, NOTHING will change. Fans will always trust their managers, and their managers opinions on players they never see, they will have no reason to question his opinion on youth players. Especially when the only dissenters are 3 non qualified fans on a forum who watch them leisurely. The ironic thing is when a manager favours one first teamer over another (eg. Poch favouring Trippier over Walker towards the end of the season), fans feel within their right to question the manager but the same luxury isn't afforded to those who watch youth teamers.

I can understand why people will always trust the managers opinion and fair enough, but at some point we should be able to question them. If a player doesn't get played you will hear they are not good enough however lets use Onomah as an example of the mentality of fans. Poch has had Onomah since he was 17. When he was 17 he had him come on against Burnely in League Cup.When Onomah was 18 Poch said this

'He is a special boy, a special player, because of his talent, his potential and his body. His body is powerful and he has quality in his feet. I don't know how he will develop.

'Sometimes you get an instinct about a player but I prefer to keep that inside. Football is always about input and feeling and sometimes you don't know why but you think this guy can be a top player.

'Maybe it is about knowledge about football as we have been in football all our life. I think we have a lot of talent here.'

'The problem with the young players is that they play in the U21 and U18 and you pick them one day and it is normal that it is very difficult for them.

Our process is to work with the academy and train, it is a natural progression to train with the first team and when they play they feel very confident and play like they do in the academy games.'

He has said all that about Josh, we have heard no problems about an attitude with Onomah in training. People widely agree and refer to the fact that Poch chooses players on merit, and he has had him in the squad. So if Onomah is not good enough to play for our first team next season (I think he is) then who's fault is it? Funnily enough it will no doubt be down to Onomah, even though Poch described him as special and went on to talk about how HE develops them according to HIS methods. It is generally acknowledged that Onomah is similar to Dembele. Poch said if he had Dembele as a kid he would have made him World Class, but this is his opportunity. I appreciate that it won't always happens but it always feels their is a convenient excuse why a player wasn't developed.

People follow their favourite managers almost like its a religion they will twist anything they want to fit their agenda. No doubt people will say Onomah isn't performing in training or has regressed, though he was one of the best player at the u20 world cup, but then why has he regressed. Why at 21 is he not good enough to play PL football. Is this another situation where the academy player is at fault.

Poch compared Edwards to Messi, surely he must believe he is good enough for PL football, but if he doesn't, no doubt everyone will attribute it to an attitude problem with Edwards. And here in lies the problem with English football and why things will never change. I can only talk about our club as its the one I know in detail, but this goes through every club.

I'd be interested to know in what situation would a fan ever put responsibility on the manager for a player not coming through. It's hard to say as if they're not given a chance, then no one knows what they're missing, so how good or hyped or how successful at youth level would a player have to be for fans to question what has happened? Surely due to law of averages manager must get one wrong at some point but when would it ever be accepted. People love looking at players who never got a chance, that struggled as they drop down a couple of divisions and learn a completely new philosophy, to say look the manager was right. But we're finding with players like Smith, Daniels, Berchiche and I imagine Pritchard that they eventually find their way to the top leagues. What would have happened were they to get that chance?

Everyone widely agrees that academy products aren't getting the chances they should, and believe it is an inherent problem in the English games affecting all clubs. Yet if I was to ask fans of each club and question why individual cases there will no doubt be an excuse for every single one. And that is where the problem is. This is England's tournament record over the summer with one game left to play -
Played - 26
Won - 22 (1 on pens)
Drawn - 2
Lost - 2 (Both pens)
Scored - 56
Conceded - 14

I am confident than in a year or two's time there will be players from other nations, who our or other PL fans will want to sign while ours are still chilling in the academy. There is no excuse but one will be made. It feels like as our players don't have a La Liga or Ligue 1 as a breeding ground to develop in, our players even when they perform well on loan still aren't seen as better players.

It shouldn't be but I find that too many players if they are going to get a chance it has to come down to luck, whether that be through injuries or complete failures. Look at Rashford and even Kane, He could easily have been sold at the end of Poch's first year, if Ade or Soldado scored a few goals. Poch is praised for bringing through Kane, but even Kane said in an interview it was down to complete luck. Development should not be like that. I'm sure McDermott was not surprised or thought it was lucky when Kane succeeded in the Prem, he knew how good he was.

With regards to why Poch doesn't trust these players over signed players, I speculating, but I believe it is because he like every manager, unless you're in Eredivisie or Ligue 1, is afraid of taking the risk on an untested player. And with the pressure on I don't blame him, but it's annoying to see people not accepting it. There is no harm, in admitting Poch is human and is afraid of risking a young player as its his job on the line. I also BELIEVE that managers, Poch too, aren't completely objective when choosing players. Some are moreso than other and I think Poch is more objective but I think all managers' decision are compounded by things such as fees, experience and in some cases (happens in life football is no different) favouritism. Sissoko was garbage, last season, when GKN came on I think he looked better yet, Sissoko got more game time, I BELIEVE the fact that Sissiko cost 3 times the amount of GKN that it may have played a part, as he is looking for a return on his investment and I don't think it is stupid to think that if could affect money Levy might give him, so he plays him more. Football is not objective, and if it was, there wouldn't be a reason, why English academies have been dominating football for the last few years with national teams winning tournaments and yet the number of players coming through is significantly less.

An example of where English football is. Everton were widely praised last year and performed well. They gave the most minutes to teenagers and young players, not all academy some bought and they looked good and took their chance. 5 of them featured for England in the u20 World Cup, yet rather than building upon that they have bought a load of players to block their paths and noone partcularly cares. I can imagine on the GOT forum some may be slightly miffed but they will be swiftly shot down. Now what happens to them? Another example is seeing Spurs fans crying that we havent' signed someone...anyone. And that is waht it comes down to, fans just want to sign someone regardless. I am really calm, I dont care if we don't replace Walker, I don't care with we don't buy a defender, I don't care if we don't buy Keita, (I wouldn't air these views in the transfer forum) as I am confident in teh ability of the academy players we have in back up. I just want to buy a quality winger as we need it and don't have one in reserve,

And finally

Spurzinho said:

He's 18 & a half and if he is the prodigy that I'm sure he, and we, all think he is then this is the season to step up and prove it.

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Why is this pressure put on young players? Why can't the fact they have proven themselves to teh top quality coahces we have mean they are givne some leeway. Everyone knows we have one of the ebst academies, our top coahces are hear to produce top players, they will advise our top manager which specific players should get chances. If they've gone through that rigorous testing their whole life, being kept on and on, why when finally that moment cmoes where the coach is brave enough to give them a chance they have been working towards their whole life, must they take their chances instantly otherwise face the risk of being sold or youth watchers being called deluded or overrating them?

Lamela, Paulinho, Soldado, Jansen, GKN, N'Jie, Trippier, Davies the list is endless, why after a medium to poor season are expereinced players asked to be given another season, whereas academy players are expected to 'take their chance' why can't they be given time and trusted to develop by fans, and faith instilled in coaches. As I say everyone claims they want them to come through but also want instant results and don't have that patience. I reckon when you compare the academy players that have had more than 10 PL starts for us, since revamp, compared to all the signings we have made, the success rate (subjective), will probably be the same. None have bombed like Paulinho or Soldado so why not give more a go. We have had arguably 2 World Class players come through out of the 10 or so players, and other effective first teamers and squad players who have gone on to continue in the PL. I would love that, 'produce the goods now' attitdue to change. That goes for all of English football. As I say I talk about us as I know more about us.

NB - this is not a dig at Pochettino. I know ti may seem like a dig at Pochettino but it is not a dig at Pochettino. Pochettino is my favourite manager and the best manager we have ever had in my lifetime supporting Spurs. I love Pochettino, I want Pochettino to stay as long as possible. I think Pochettino is an excellent developer of players and particularly young players. However, I believe Pochettino is not as good at bringing through academy players as others believe, and he is marginally better than some managers. I reserve the right to believe that Pochettino can be a World Class coach/manager and still do more to promote academy players as the rest of the PL need to. Please take this into account before slating me. Thank you

Spurrific said:

Pereira can play further up the pitch though. If KWP is as good as he seems to be, I'm sure he'll get his chance.

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As well as LB.