The Managerial Merry-go-round

beats1 · Sep 11, 2017

Shadydan said:
He was sacked after 3 months of being in charge of Inter Milan, maybe he's just a fraud

LOL calling him a fraud

Inter had 5 managers in the space of 12 months, getting sacked at inter is like getting sacked at chelsea, its to be expected

beats1 · Sep 11, 2017

dontcallme said:
Naturally we don't know what ent on behind the scenes. But essentially they hired him to look over a long-term overhaul then fired him straight away.

Whether it was a poor appointment or they have not given him time the board have to take bulk of the responsibility here.

Some crystal palace fans have gone as far as saying they deserve to be relegated

Apparently he was brought in to develop young players and try to emulate southampton in terms of producing players

Yet they now go to Hodgson who is terrible with youth

They also arent keen on their american owners

Shadydan · Sep 11, 2017

beats1 said:
LOL calling him a fraud

Inter had 5 managers in the space of 12 months, getting sacked at inter is like getting sacked at chelsea, its to be expected

So what's the explanation of him being sacked after 4 matches at Crystal Palace?

Palace have scored 0 (zero) goals in 360 mins of football

beats1 · Sep 12, 2017

Shadydan said:
So what's the explanation of him being sacked after 4 matches at Crystal Palace?

Palace have scored 0 (zero) goals in 360 mins of football

You called him a fraud based on his time at inter, overlooking inter are the biggest mess in italian football and make Milan look like a well run club

Whats the explanation, crystal palace owners got scared of the daunting process of going under change their wanted their manager to initiate

They didnt exactly back him either the bbc says that there was a break down in the relationship 2 weeks ago, he was unhappy with the way they scheduled preseason before he got there, the chairman involvement in the first team and the delay in signing Sakho

The clubs issue with his team selections, his formation

, the squad struggle to implement his style, the training ground atmosphere as well as lack of input on transfers and feedback from him.

Other than the final two points from the club, Crystal palace have no leg to stand on imo. They should have given him time.

Yes they only scored no goals, but the opposing manager in their last match, who has taken points of us and chelsea, said that palace were the better team.

So whilst they may have not got the goals, they were creating chances and played well in the last match despite missing imo their two best players in Zaha and Sakho.

Shadydan · Sep 12, 2017

beats1 said:
You called him a fraud based on his time at inter, overlooking inter are the biggest mess in italian football and make Milan look like a well run club

Whats the explanation, crystal palace owners got scared of the daunting process of going under change their wanted their manager to initiate

They didnt exactly back him either the bbc says that there was a break down in the relationship 2 weeks ago, he was unhappy with the way they scheduled preseason before he got there, the chairman involvement in the first team and the delay in signing Sakho

The clubs issue with his team selections, his formation, the squad struggle to implement his style, the training ground atmosphere as well as lack of input on transfers and feedback from him.

Other than the final two points from the club, Crystal palace have no leg to stand on imo. They should have given him time.

Yes they only scored no goals, but the opposing manager in their last match, who has taken points of us and chelsea, said that palace were the better team.

So whilst they may have not got the goals, they were creating chances and played well in the last match despite missing imo their two best players in Zaha and Sakho.

Nope I called him a fraud based on his time at Inter AND Palace, hence me bringing it up in this thread...

As for the rest I don't disagree with a lot of that but let's be real he can't have inspired much confidence if he's getting sacked after 4 matches, whether Palace were justified in sacking remains to be seen but you don't get dismissed by your boss(es) that quick if they think you're up to the job.

Sounds to me like he talks a good game but when it comes down to it he struggled to live up to his expectations hence me calling him a fraud

Danners9 · Sep 12, 2017

Pellshek said:
There are shades of Spurs' problems with AVB in Parish's spin here. From the outside, de Boer looks a sober football man, but once you see him up close, he turns out to be aloof around the place, immature in dealing with relationships, lacking the political guile to navigate egos, and has a certain detachment from throwing himself fully into the joint enterprise. Sounds familiar.

All of that would certainly explain the oddly early decision to sack him. Once bad mood music is set early doors and key relationships are compromised, it's hard to fix it.

From de Boer's side, if Parish had anything to do with first team matters, de Boer has every right to be pissed off about it. And certainly that thing about de Boer's contract negotiations involving discussion of formations is very, very weird.

I love the saying: "If you're going to panic, panic early." As such, I might just give benefit of doubt to Palace and Parish, but it doesn't absolve them of a failure of due diligence pre-appointment, & any subsequent meddling.

If it's true, it's been a disaster from the start. The wrong man at the wrong club, but at least the damage is less than, say, carrying on until December. I said in the Premier League thread yesterday during the game that Palace is a mish-mash of players from different managers, and De Boer didn't get enough players of the type he'd want to make much of an impact. He was left with trying to get Allardyce defenders trying to play out from the back and their attack blunted by Benteke doing nothing and Zaha being injured.

When they appointed him, Parish said:
‘We have undertaken a thorough interview process to ensure we are in a position to appoint a manager of the calibre and experience that Frank brings with him. I am pleased to welcome him to Crystal Palace and I know he cannot wait to get started and prepare for our record breaking fifth season in the top flight.’

'thorough' - maybe they just used the word to justify that it took a month to appoint a new bloke after Sam left. Or, he was the biggest name available (a Palace mate says Sean Dyche wanted the job...) at the time but both sides went cold on the idea when the reality became clear. I've been in a job like that before, lasted 4 months

. Sold the dream and then it becomes obvious it is just talk and your wages are late every month... :sick:

De Boer needs to be careful now! 2 very short appointments after his Ajax stint might be damaging... maybe Kaiser will be sacked and he can go back to Ajax soon?

Bus-Conductor · Sep 12, 2017

danielneeds said:
I don't really believe in coincidences like that in football. At the very least De Boer has shown that he's got poor judgement when deciding the people he's going to work for. At most he's still not shown any ability to take his ideas outside of his Ajax comfort blanket, however unfortunate he's been.

Anyhow, at least with Woy coming in the chances of Poch getting his shiny Zaha next summer have increased many fold.

I think De Boer has made a couple of flawed choices, but I just do not understand chairman that hire a coach who they know plenty about, know they have a methodology, an ethos etc and then don't back them and create an environment and time in which they can have the best chance of success.

We have seen what can happen here when you have a chairman back a coach unilaterally. Players not comfortable with his methods? Fuck them, they can train with the kids. Coaching staff or academy director not on board, they can fuck off too. You gear the whole club around the head coach's ideology and you might just have a chance of achieving something, as long as you believe in that head coach, there is some body of evidence to prove he has some ability as a coach, and having spent weeks/months doing your due diligence and talking with the guy, you should back your judgement.

Sacking De Boer after 4 games just screams utter bollocklessness from Parish.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 12, 2017

Shadydan said:
Nope I called him a fraud based on his time at Inter AND Palace, hence me bringing it up in this thread...

As for the rest I don't disagree with a lot of that but let's be real he can't have inspired much confidence if he's getting sacked after 4 matches, whether Palace were justified in sacking remains to be seen but you don't get dismissed by your boss(es) that quick if they think you're up to the job.

Sounds to me like he talks a good game but when it comes down to it he struggled to live up to his expectations hence me calling him a fraud

That's a ridiculous thing to say about a guy with his track record, and who was given 15 games at the basket case of Inter and 4 at the basket case that is Palace.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 12, 2017

Pellshek said:
There are shades of Spurs' problems with AVB in Parish's spin here. From the outside, de Boer looks a sober football man, but once you see him up close, he turns out to be aloof around the place, immature in dealing with relationships, lacking the political guile to navigate egos, and has a certain detachment from throwing himself fully into the joint enterprise. Sounds familiar.

All of that would certainly explain the oddly early decision to sack him. Once bad mood music is set early doors and key relationships are compromised, it's hard to fix it.

From de Boer's side, if Parish had anything to do with first team matters, de Boer has every right to be pissed off about it. And certainly that thing about de Boer's contract negotiations involving discussion of formations is very, very weird.

I love the saying: "If you're going to panic, panic early." As such, I might just give benefit of doubt to Palace and Parish, but it doesn't absolve them of a failure of due diligence pre-appointment, & any subsequent meddling.

The biggest problem with AVB was that he didn't get the same kind of backing Pochettino did. Imagine Poch had Kane, Alli and Eriksen sold in the last 24 months, was told he couldn't fuck off Adebayor but had to try and keep him happy, then throw in having to put up with Tim football geezer Sherwood being allowed to march into your office daily and lecture you about how to do your job. As it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football have been pretty identical.

I think De Boer achieved what he did at Ajax because he had a board that believed him and the club all pulled in the same direction around him from youth to first team to integration to acquisitions etc. But you still don't achieve 4 straight titles by being a fraud.

spurs9 · Sep 12, 2017

Shadydan said:
Their next 4 fixtures are Southampton, Man Utd, Man City and then Chelsea so yo'd expect them to get max 3 points...wouldn't be at all surprised that they looked at it and realised that the team need a some fresh impetus going into those matches because if you go into those matches and come out getting spanked then you're in some serious trouble and morale is low. I reckon they've probably sacked him based on that as they didn't have the confidence that he could get them out of a situation and could be struggling down the bottom off the table.

They are replacing him with Roy Hodgson, how much worse can morale get?

spurs9 · Sep 12, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
The biggest problem with AVB was that he didn't get the same kind of backing Pochettino did. Imagine Poch had Kane, Alli and Eriksen sold in the last 24 months, was told he couldn't fuck off Adebayor but had to try and keep him happy, then throw in having to put up with Tim football geezer Sherwood being allowed to march into your office daily and lecture you about how to do your job. As it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football have been pretty identical.

I think De Boer achieved what he did at Ajax because he had a board that believed him and the club all pulled in the same direction around him from youth to first team to integration to acquisitions etc. But you still don't achieve 4 straight titles by being a fraud.

Bale was the only player we sold that we wanted to keep.

On our worse days under Poch we look like AVBs team, on our good days we are worlds apart.

EJWTartanSpur · Sep 12, 2017

Think Pellshek probably has this about right.
They like the idea of someone like Boer - working with youth, technical football so hire him.
They discover that he can be quite aloof and abrasive and doesn't take lightly to involvement from above.
This allied with the slow start, caused them to take fright and they bailed.

Problem in recent years to me, is that decent European managers ( aside from the very top echelon ), seem very eager to get in on the PL salaries and will take the first job offer that comes along even if it's with a smaller team. There's been quite the handful of interesting appointments - Mazzari, Laudrup, Koeman, de Boer, Poch, Advocat, Magath to name a few. Some of them pan out, but some of them are bad matches.

De Boer would have been far more suited to a Southampton or Swansea type that either have a good track record with younger players, or have displayed a propensity to try and play technical football.

I actually felt like fat Sam was a great fit with Palace. I think he could have gone on to do pretty well with them considering they have some good physical players, a few players with decent skills like Zaha, and seem willing to spend some money. He may have stayed there for quite a few years. Palace were probably gutted when he decided to jack it in.

Marty · Sep 12, 2017

Fraud is the most over-used word when it comes to describing a football manager. De Boer has failed badly at two clubs, a complete and utter mess of a club at Inter and a Palace that seemed to instantly regret hiring him.

That doesn't qualify as a fraud. A fraud would be someone who doesn't have a clue what he's doing and who's cheated or lucked his way into positions. De Boer has done neither, he has made poor choices but nothing that warrants being called a fraud.

scat1620 · Sep 12, 2017

Obviously we'll have to see how the next few years pan out for De Boer, and I don't think Parrish sacking him is necessarily a death knell for his future prospects and potential success (he was at a club where he was never going to be allowed to do his thing, and him going there was a daft decision on both his part and Parrish's), but it's quite nice to see that as things stand we definitely, definitely made the right decision when choosing between Pochettino and FDB in the summer of 2014.

Shadydan · Sep 12, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
The biggest problem with AVB was that he didn't get the same kind of backing Pochettino did. Imagine Poch had Kane, Alli and Eriksen sold in the last 24 months, was told he couldn't fuck off Adebayor but had to try and keep him happy, then throw in having to put up with Tim football geezer Sherwood being allowed to march into your office daily and lecture you about how to do your job. As it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football have been pretty identical.

I think De Boer achieved what he did at Ajax because he had a board that believed him and the club all pulled in the same direction around him from youth to first team to integration to acquisitions etc. But you still don't achieve 4 straight titles by being a fraud.

Just because we didn't get Moutinho, Hulk and David Villa doesn't mean that AVB wasn't backed, also Poch had the same backing as AVB over Ade, the difference is that Poch dealt with the situation more smarter than AVB, there's differences between the two managers which is why AVB got sacked and Poch is still Spurs manager.

Led's Zeppelin · Sep 12, 2017

EJWTartanSpur said:
Think Pellshek probably has this about right.
They like the idea of someone like Boer - working with youth, technical football so hire him.
They discover that he can be quite aloof and abrasive and doesn't take lightly to involvement from above.
This allied with the slow start, caused them to take fright and they bailed.

Problem in recent years to me, is that decent European managers ( aside from the very top echelon ), seem very eager to get in on the PL salaries and will take the first job offer that comes along even if it's with a smaller team. There's been quite the handful of interesting appointments - Mazzari, Laudrup, Koeman, de Boer, Poch, Advocat, Magath to name a few. Some of them pan out, but some of them are bad matches.

De Boer would have been far more suited to a Southampton or Swansea type that either have a good track record with younger players, or have displayed a propensity to try and play technical football.

I actually felt like fat Sam was a great fit with Palace. I think he could have gone on to do pretty well with them considering they have some good physical players, a few players with decent skills like Zaha, and seem willing to spend some money. He may have stayed there for quite a few years. Palace were probably gutted when he decided to jack it in.

Thing is that most football clubs, despite becoming genuinely big businesses, still often behave like corner shops, only less well organised in many cases.

It appears that Palace recruited someone without really having the first idea about how he works, what he needs, whether they see eye-to-eye on what timescales and risks are appropriate and acceptable. These are all standard things that an employer should know about a high-level employee yet Palace appear to have neglected the basics.

They were incompetent and I think it would be wrong to put the blame on FDB who quite clearly hasn't yet failed as a coach because he hasn't had time to. The fault is all Palace's.

Shadydan · Sep 12, 2017

Marty said:
Fraud is the most over-used word when it comes to describing a football manager. De Boer has failed badly at two clubs, a complete and utter mess of a club at Inter and a Palace that seemed to instantly regret hiring him.

That doesn't qualify as a fraud. A fraud would be someone who doesn't have a clue what he's doing and who's cheated or lucked his way into positions. De Boer has done neither, he has made poor choices but nothing that warrants being called a fraud.

C'mon he's not literally a fraud lol

Thing with De Boer is that hardly comes across as an inspiring individual de boer does he. Sad really because I used to love his commanding style at CB, was also good on the ball. His managerial career has destroyed that.

They looked clueless in their opening matches, against Burnley The big problem is Benteke, you simply cannot play a silky brand of football with him in the side because he won't drop deep well, he won't run in behind. Your only hope is to ping balls at him. Doesn't help when you have to play dross like Chung lee and Puncheon is hardly gonna make runs in behind either. That left Townsend, who is inconsistent as best. Trouble is the back-up striker is Wickham, so it's not like you have another option of playing. Hodgson will get it back to basics and play some agricultural stuff to Benteke which should see them through ok

I think that's the problem Palace and it's reminiscent of AVB's time at Chelsea which was trying to enforce their philosophy on a team too quickly despite not having the players for it. Surely as a manager it's your job to see the strengths and limitations of your players and adjust accordingly, if the players aren't comfortable with the style of football they'll eventually down tools and stop playing for the manager, it's not totally inconceivable that he board saw that and looked at the next few fixtures and thought fuck that - abandon ship...seems harsh but we will only know if it's the right decision in a few months time.

Led's Zeppelin · Sep 12, 2017

Shadydan said:
C'mon he's not literally a fraud lol

Thing with De Boer is that hardly comes across as an inspiring individual de boer does he. Sad really because I used to love his commanding style at CB, was also good on the ball. His managerial career has destroyed that.

They looked clueless in their opening matches, against Burnley The big problem is Benteke, you simply cannot play a silky brand of football with him in the side because he won't drop deep well, he won't run in behind. Your only hope is to ping balls at him. Doesn't help when you have to play dross like Chung lee and Puncheon is hardly gonna make runs in behind either. That left Townsend, who is inconsistent as best. Trouble is the back-up striker is Wickham, so it's not like you have another option of playing. Hodgson will get it back to basics and play some agricultural stuff to Benteke which should see them through ok

I think that's the problem Palace and it's reminiscent of AVB's time at Chelsea which was trying to enforce their philosophy on a team too quickly despite not having the players for it. Surely as a manager it's your job to see the strengths and limitations of your players and adjust accordingly, if the players aren't comfortable with the style of football they'll eventually down tools and stop playing for the manager, it's not totally inconceivable that he board saw that and looked at the next few fixtures and thought fuck that - abandon ship...seems harsh but we will only know if it's the right decision in a few months time.

Or maybe much longer.

If all they wanted was to survive another season in the Premiership, then yes, you're probably right.

If what they wanted was to transform the club from persistent relegation candidates to something much more positive and progressive like Southampton and Swansea have attempted with some success, and of course Ajax is the perfect model for that, then it will take much longer than a few months and a few decent results to prove them right in sacking FDB. I suspect they were wrong.

VanZan · Sep 12, 2017

I did a search for De Boer here and some of the results both terrify and amuse me. An article quoting Kluivert saying FDB reminded him of Guardiola. An interview with Eriksen saying FDB would succeed here. Oh and some posts wanting Poch sacked and FDB appointed!!!

Bus-Conductor · Sep 12, 2017

Shadydan said:
Just because we didn't get Moutinho, Hulk and David Villa doesn't mean that AVB wasn't backed, also Poch had the same backing as AVB over Ade, the difference is that Poch dealt with the situation more smarter than AVB, there's differences between the two managers which is why AVB got sacked and Poch is still Spurs manager.

AVB wasn't sacked.

It's not just about being backed in the transfer market, in fact that's the least of it. And to say they were backed the same over Adebayor is laughable. We had ITK that AVB was grilled by Levy over why our our highest earner was being ostracised and it was one of the catalysts in him falling out with Levy. Poch was given carte blanche to rid the club of him, and a whole bunch of other players. And Poch also didn't have the background tw*ts like Sherwood and Freund being appointed to positions that interfered with his remit and were constantly briefing Levy behind his back.

Of course there are differences, and I think Poch is a better overall package, but their ethos's aren't that dissimilar, and Poch unquestionably benefitted from lessons learnt by Levy during AVB's tenure. AVB achieved our highest points tally and highest wins in a season (up to that point) missing out on CL by one point, having lost Modric, and at the time he was sacked he was averaging more ppg than the previous season I think, having lost Bale (and VDV and effectively Adebayor, Gallas, Parker). I very much doubt Poch would be looking so sexy if this team lost Kane, Alli and Eriksen, as it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football has been very similar, even with those players.

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