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The Managerial Merry-go-round

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
AVB wasn't sacked.

It's not just about being backed in the transfer market, in fact that's the least of it. And to say they were backed the same over Adebayor is laughable. We had ITK that AVB was grilled by Levy over why our our highest earner was being ostracised and it was one of the catalysts in him falling out with Levy. Poch was given carte blanche to rid the club of him, and a whole bunch of other players. And Poch also didn't have the background tw*ts like Sherwood and Freund being appointed to positions that interfered with his remit and were constantly briefing Levy behind his back.

Of course there are differences, and I think Poch is a better overall package, but their ethos's aren't that dissimilar, and Poch unquestionably benefitted from lessons learnt by Levy during AVB's tenure. AVB achieved our highest points tally and highest wins in a season (up to that point) missing out on CL by one point, having lost Modric, and at the time he was sacked he was averaging more ppg than the previous season I think, having lost Bale (and VDV and effectively Adebayor, Gallas, Parker). I very much doubt Poch would be looking so sexy if this team lost Kane, Alli and Eriksen, as it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football has been very similar, even with those players.

You contradict yourself about whether AVB was sacked. Was that just a slip?
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
I think De Boer has made a couple of flawed choices, but I just do not understand chairman that hire a coach who they know plenty about, know they have a methodology, an ethos etc and then don't back them and create an environment and time in which they can have the best chance of success.

We have seen what can happen here when you have a chairman back a coach unilaterally. Players not comfortable with his methods? Fuck them, they can train with the kids. Coaching staff or academy director not on board, they can fuck off too. You gear the whole club around the head coach's ideology and you might just have a chance of achieving something, as long as you believe in that head coach, there is some body of evidence to prove he has some ability as a coach, and having spent weeks/months doing your due diligence and talking with the guy, you should back your judgement.

Sacking De Boer after 4 games just screams utter bollocklessness from Parish.
We know that all chairman get jittery when it comes to having to change their squad wholesale. It'll always be easier and cheaper to change the manager rather than having to bin a whole squad. That's the pure fact.

Poch did get some lucky breaks as well in the early days - had he not had a ready to go Kane fall into his lap, things could have gone very differently,
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
I could never contradict myself because I have never claimed inside knowledge of whether he was or wasn't. I just always believed he was effectively sacked, but ITK and more recently AVB himself have refuted this:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...las-boas-tottenham-daniel-levy-broke-promises

You say In your previous post "AVB wasn't sacked" and then talk about when he was sacked. That's all I meant. Not important.

I never believed he was sacked by the way.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
AVB wasn't sacked.

It's not just about being backed in the transfer market, in fact that's the least of it. And to say they were backed the same over Adebayor is laughable. We had ITK that AVB was grilled by Levy over why our our highest earner was being ostracised and it was one of the catalysts in him falling out with Levy. Poch was given carte blanche to rid the club of him, and a whole bunch of other players. And Poch also didn't have the background tw*ts like Sherwood and Freund being appointed to positions that interfered with his remit and were constantly briefing Levy behind his back.

Of course there are differences, and I think Poch is a better overall package, but their ethos's aren't that dissimilar, and Poch unquestionably benefitted from lessons learnt by Levy during AVB's tenure. AVB achieved our highest points tally and highest wins in a season (up to that point) missing out on CL by one point, having lost Modric, and at the time he was sacked he was averaging more ppg than the previous season I think, having lost Bale (and VDV and effectively Adebayor, Gallas, Parker). I very much doubt Poch would be looking so sexy if this team lost Kane, Alli and Eriksen, as it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football has been very similar, even with those players.

I think you're being little naive if you think that AVB wasn't sacked, it' s pretty obvious his dismissal was dressed up as a mutual agreement in order to save face for him and the club but it couldn't be more obvious he was booted out after a string of poor results and general lack of direction

We had ITK that Ade was still acting up when Poch was managing Spurs and was a disruptive influence in the dressing room yet Poch dealt with the situation differently i.e that Poch kept him around the team and not trying to ostracise him from the club, he even gave him the captaincy and played him when it was clear that he wasn't in favour, there's a big difference in how both managers dealt with that situation which suggests that Poch is more of a man manager and is more smarter in dealing with people whilst AVB was aloof and cannot massage ego's and get the most out of players which was proven at his previous job..

The highest points tally and most argument is a red herring and disingenuous at best, especially as you cannot compare the strengths and weaknesses from other Premiership seasons, so what if we got our highest points tally and most wins, we stlil finished 5th. We'd finished 4th twice before with less points, doesn't mean that AVB's Spurs side are/were better than Redknapp's Spurs side, it just means that the strength of the Premier League wasn't as strong as it were when we finished higher...i.e the teams who finished above us got more points on average and teams below us accumulated less points on average. The argument is about as disingenuous as saying that Sherwood has the 2nd highest PPG ratio as Spurs manager then claiming him to be one of Spurs' successful managers.

And really losing Bale, Adebayor, VDV (who AVB pretty much pushed out the club regardless) Gallas and Parker is the same as losing Kane, Eriksen and Alli is it? Ok then...to be honest the issue wasn't the first season in which AVB took charge, I think he did a fine job, it was the 2nd season which really highlighted his limitations as a manager.
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760
Just seen what Steve Parish looks like and got me wondering; do you have to have a really dodgy bleached blonde mop-top to be chairman of Crystal Palace?

(see also previous Chairman Simon Jordan).
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
We know that all chairman get jittery when it comes to having to change their squad wholesale. It'll always be easier and cheaper to change the manager rather than having to bin a whole squad. That's the pure fact.

Not really in Palace's case though? I'd rather lose 3/4 of their squad and give De Boer carte blanche and time, than pander to that bunch of shit kickers. I mean, who represents the best chance of long term development that squad or De Boer ?

Poch did get some lucky breaks as well in the early days - had he not had a ready to go Kane fall into his lap, things could have gone very differently,

As well as inheriting Kane, he also inherited an Eriksen that was starting to find his feet in this league, not having his first season.

To be fair to Poch he has improved most players, even mediocre ones, and that is the sign of a good coach, but to be fair to AVB, I always maintained what he was getting out of that squad in his last season was similarly over achievement, by that time, Modric, VDV, Bale, Gallas, King, Parker, Adebayor had all gone in one way or another, but we still maintained a healthy ppg and were still up around 5th place. And at Porto he also got the best out players that didn't always reach those heights elsewhere.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I think you're being little naive if you think that AVB wasn't sacked, it' s pretty obvious his dismissal was dressed up as a mutual agreement in order to save face for him and the club but it couldn't be more obvious he was booted out after a string of poor results and general lack of direction

We had ITK that Ade was still acting up when Poch was managing Spurs and was a disruptive influence in the dressing room yet Poch dealt with the situation differently i.e that Poch kept him around the team and not trying to ostracise him from the club, he even gave him the captaincy and played him when it was clear that he wasn't in favour, there's a big difference in how both managers dealt with that situation which suggests that Poch is more of a man manager and is more smarter in dealing with people whilst AVB was aloof and cannot massage ego's and get the most out of players which was proven at his previous job..

The highest points tally and most argument is a red herring and disingenuous at best, especially as you cannot compare the strengths and weaknesses from other Premiership seasons, so what if we got our highest points tally and most wins, we stlil finished 5th. We'd finished 4th twice before with less points, doesn't mean that AVB's Spurs side are/were better than Redknapp's Spurs side, it just means that the strength of the Premier League wasn't as strong as it were when we finished higher...i.e the teams who finished above us got more points on average and teams below us accumulated less points on average. The argument is about as disingenuous as saying that Sherwood has the 2nd highest PPG ratio as Spurs manager then claiming him to be one of Spurs' successful managers.

And really losing Bale, Adebayor, VDV (who AVB pretty much pushed out the club regardless) Gallas and Parker is the same as losing Kane, Eriksen and Alli is it? Ok then...to be honest the issue wasn't the first season in which AVB took charge, I think he did a fine job, it was the 2nd season which really highlighted his limitations as a manager.


As Ive said above, I'd always believed that AVB was sacked, but not just himself, but ITK's have said otherwise, and I can believe that too, I think he'd got as pissed off with the situation too.

He got sacked after losing 0-5 at home to (Suarez) Liverpool (with ten men for half a game - something Liverpool had done the previous game to Arsenal) prior to that we'd beaten Sunderland away, Fulham away and drawn at home to ManU. Hardly a string of bad results. We were siting around 5th/6th about 4 points off 4th I think.

I just think it's massively over simplistic to talk about his "weaknesses" and not consider the whole picture and circumstances of what was going on at the club at that time. A plethora of quality (some absolute top quality) players went, the replacements were mostly of a much lower standard, Sherwood, Freund, Adebayor stinking out the place, maybe with others such as Kabul, Lennon etc. The whole Baldini debacle.

The point is, when Adebayor acted up for AVB was he backed by Levy in how he wanted to deal with it ? ITK says not. Poch was, that's the difference, because coaches rarely have the final say on issues like this, chairman do, and as others have pointed out on here it's invariably players who get backed, not coaches, Poch has been an exception to this, and look at the benefit. Maybe if AVB was backed the same, and had been a bit lucky with his timing re players - he basically caught us in a genuine complete transition, from The Redknapp era where as well as players like Modric coming to fruition, Levy had been talked into bringing in players like Gallas, Adebayor, Parker, VDV all of whom had limited shelf lives.

I've never claimed AVB was the messiah, or faultless, or didn't make mistakes, he did, but I think comparing his circumstances with the managers the preceded and followed him, he definitely had the hardest task, and didn't do a terrible job.

Pochettino's first season, even with Kane wasn't much better than AVB's last. AVB did perfectly fine with us, more than acceptable I'd say, and has been successful elsewhere, in more conducive circumstances, doesn't prove he's one of the best, but proves he's decent enough and not got too many inherent "weaknesses".
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
You say In your previous post "AVB wasn't sacked" and then talk about when he was sacked. That's all I meant. Not important.

I never believed he was sacked by the way.

Yes, just a semi-freudian slip. In my mind I've always thought he was sacked, and still forget that I have had that opinion disabused.
 

rich75

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2004
7,591
3,215
AVB wasn't sacked.

It's not just about being backed in the transfer market, in fact that's the least of it. And to say they were backed the same over Adebayor is laughable. We had ITK that AVB was grilled by Levy over why our our highest earner was being ostracised and it was one of the catalysts in him falling out with Levy. Poch was given carte blanche to rid the club of him, and a whole bunch of other players. And Poch also didn't have the background tw*ts like Sherwood and Freund being appointed to positions that interfered with his remit and were constantly briefing Levy behind his back.

Of course there are differences, and I think Poch is a better overall package, but their ethos's aren't that dissimilar, and Poch unquestionably benefitted from lessons learnt by Levy during AVB's tenure. AVB achieved our highest points tally and highest wins in a season (up to that point) missing out on CL by one point, having lost Modric, and at the time he was sacked he was averaging more ppg than the previous season I think, having lost Bale (and VDV and effectively Adebayor, Gallas, Parker). I very much doubt Poch would be looking so sexy if this team lost Kane, Alli and Eriksen, as it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football has been very similar, even with those players.

"highest points total"

How many times does it have to be pointed out that it's completely irrelevant ?
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,905
78,642
AVB wasn't sacked.

It's not just about being backed in the transfer market, in fact that's the least of it. And to say they were backed the same over Adebayor is laughable. We had ITK that AVB was grilled by Levy over why our our highest earner was being ostracised and it was one of the catalysts in him falling out with Levy. Poch was given carte blanche to rid the club of him, and a whole bunch of other players. And Poch also didn't have the background tw*ts like Sherwood and Freund being appointed to positions that interfered with his remit and were constantly briefing Levy behind his back.

Of course there are differences, and I think Poch is a better overall package, but their ethos's aren't that dissimilar, and Poch unquestionably benefitted from lessons learnt by Levy during AVB's tenure. AVB achieved our highest points tally and highest wins in a season (up to that point) missing out on CL by one point, having lost Modric, and at the time he was sacked he was averaging more ppg than the previous season I think, having lost Bale (and VDV and effectively Adebayor, Gallas, Parker). I very much doubt Poch would be looking so sexy if this team lost Kane, Alli and Eriksen, as it is, there have been many games where Poch and AVB's football has been very similar, even with those players.
I don't really agree with that - perhaps at times during the first season, whilst every team is going to have the odd game or two where you look blunt and ineffective - which is what a lot of AVBs tenure was like. The biggest difference is that under Poch we've had a huge percentage of games in which we've seen thrilling football, you an't really say the same about AVB.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I don't really agree with that - perhaps at times during the first season, whilst every team is going to have the odd game or two where you look blunt and ineffective - which is what a lot of AVBs tenure was like. The biggest difference is that under Poch we've had a huge percentage of games in which we've seen thrilling football, you an't really say the same about AVB.

I think both coaches basic strategies and approaches are pretty similar. And if you you put exciting quality players in their teams, they can reward the good organisation and team ethos that both managers try to instill.

There's been a vast majority of games under Poch where we plod around through midfield with no tempo with players like Dier, Dembele or Wanyama and bumble around up top a fair bit too but talented forwards (Kane/Alli/Eriksen/Son) make explosive things happen.

It was the same under AVB but with shitter players (Eriksen and Lamela had just arrived in England too so we're nowhere near up to their best) and one explosive forward producing the goods.

I don't know why people keep ignoring the evidence of AVB's Porto, where he had quality players and his team produced some great football, like Poch, defensively the best in the league but also one of the highest scoring too, and he added enormous value to many of his players.
 

scat1620

L'espion mal fait
May 11, 2008
16,280
52,491
I think both coaches basic strategies and approaches are pretty similar. And if you you put exciting quality players in their teams, they can reward the good organisation and team ethos that both managers try to instill.

There's been a vast majority of games under Poch where we plod around through midfield with no tempo with players like Dier, Dembele or Wanyama and bumble around up top a fair bit too but talented forwards (Kane/Alli/Eriksen/Son) make explosive things happen.

It was the same under AVB but with shitter players (Eriksen and Lamela had just arrived in England too so we're nowhere near up to their best) and one explosive forward producing the goods.

I don't know why people keep ignoring the evidence of AVB's Porto, where he had quality players and his team produced some great football, like Poch, defensively the best in the league but also one of the highest scoring too, and he added enormous value to many of his players.
So, to summarise:

Poch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redknapp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AVB

I know that's not what you said. But that's the correct answer.

You're welcome.
 

ernie78

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2012
7,220
15,218
Especially a 70 year old who has been a laughing stock since the Euros.
Exactly, I can't see how any player would be inspired by his appointment. He looked devoid of ideas and passion at the shambles that were the Euros. As a fan you'd be livid, well I would be
 

Doctor Dinkey

Legacy Fan
Jul 6, 2013
3,591
8,687
Hodgeson announced at Palace
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41229077

Don't know if its that great an appointment. 4 games, De Boer has the lowest games as manager in the PL ever
It's a disastrous appointment for them. He is completely wrecked and spent as a manager. His final days as England manager were shockingly clueless. I'd be very surprised if they stayed up. I'd be mildly surprised if they won a single game, tbh.
 
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