England Woman’s Team

Maxtremist · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
I'm astonished that there is any discussion on a white army banner at a football match where your team wears white, I'm sure there are considerate people who genuinely care about other people's feelings but for Christ sake what are they on?
They are wrong and the fact that anybody questions that makes me sad for the state of the world.
Absolute bollocks.

I think the discussion/point here is the that line between your club team wearing white VS your country wearing white. As I've said a few times, I have no real issue with this but I can see how others might. If it's your country and their slogan is 'Super White Army' that can sit wrong with a lot of people. As just a club team I feel that sits and feels different which is why the banner on its own isn't wrong, just the context it was used for this particular occasion.

I also raise again that this was whilst Sampson was in the job and I believe they were re-opening/looking back into his racism case so not a great thing to have the 'Super White Army' up during that going on.

Again, for the record, I have no particular issue with the banner itself... but I can understand the FA wanting to not highlight it.

talkshowhost86 · Sep 22, 2017

Maxtremist said:
I think the discussion/point here is the that line between your club team wearing white VS your country wearing white. As I've said a few times, I have no real issue with this but I can see how others might. If it's your country and their slogan is 'Super White Army' that can sit wrong with a lot of people. As just a club team I feel that sits and feels different which is why the banner on its own isn't wrong, just the context it was used for this particular occasion.

I also raise again that this was whilst Sampson was in the job and I believe they were re-opening/looking back into his racism case so not a great thing to have the 'Super White Army' up during that going on.

Again, for the record, I have no particular issue with the banner itself... but I can understand the FA wanting to not highlight it.

This is the critical point.

Personally I think they've made it more of a thing by highlighting it, but in the middle of a racism row you can see why having that banner up may not look great. I don't think anyone is saying Tranmere are racist, or that they should take down the sign permanently.

Strangely enough, the people complaining about people being too easily offended, seem to be far too easily offended by the sign being removed.

dontcallme · Sep 22, 2017

So he has had complaints by some of his players about racist remarks and inappropriate behaviour at his previous club has deemed him the wrong type of character to manage the national side.

Seems pretty standard really.

aliyid · Sep 22, 2017

Kinda feel for the guy to be honest, independent panel reviewed his case three years ago and concluded there was nothing to it. He goes on to get the England job taking them to a first ever World Cup semi final and Euro semi final.

Career was on a massive high and now he's being labelled a racist homophobic paedo and will probably never get another job in football.

worcestersauce · Sep 22, 2017

I accept that some people may be uncomfortable with it but my point is that they shouldn't be and just because they are doesn't make it wrong.
Seriously, look at this from a sensible standpoint, look at this from somewhere in the real world and you can only think it is just plain stupid and wrong.
When did white become a dirty word?

dontcallme · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
I accept that some people may be uncomfortable with it but my point is that they shouldn't be and just because they are doesn't make it wrong.
Seriously, look at this from a sensible standpoint, look at this from somewhere in the real world and you can only think it is just plain stupid and wrong.
When did white become a dirty word?

But it isn't just the Tranmere flag thing is it? People are using this to make the entire accusation look ridiculous.

One black player and one mixed race player have made complaints of racist comments. These cannot simply be ignored.

There is also concerns about his behaviour at his previous club. The FA wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't take this seriously.

Maxtremist · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
I accept that some people may be uncomfortable with it but my point is that they shouldn't be and just because they are doesn't make it wrong.
Seriously, look at this from a sensible standpoint, look at this from somewhere in the real world and you can only think it is just plain stupid and wrong.
When did white become a dirty word?

White is not an inherently dirty word, no-one is saying that at all. My two points are first and foremost... this was during Sampson being caught in a whole racism row so the FA were thinking about that.

Secondly on a lesser extent but I still feel relevant, the fact that this is for the national team VS a club team. England and Super White Army doesn't sit well together to some (the more I think about it the more it doesn't sit well with me).

As for the idea of a sensible standpoint, I am. This is sense to me. I respect that your viewpoint is a sensible one for you and I merely disagree with it for the reasons stated.

hellava_tough · Sep 22, 2017

dontcallme said:
So he has had complaints by some of his players about racist remarks and inappropriate behaviour at his previous club has deemed him the wrong type of character to manage the national side.

Seems pretty standard really.

Problem is the public don't know what happened at Bristol

Unless there are fresh updates today; if so, please post links (y)

dontcallme · Sep 22, 2017

hellava_tough said:
Problem is the public don't know what happened at Bristol

Unless there are fresh updates today; if so, please post links

We don't know. But we do know 2 players made a complaint against him for racist remarks and there was an investigation of his time at Bristol academy that found his evidence of inappropriate relationships with his players but he wasn't a safeguarding risk.

That is enough for him to have the top management position in the sport.

hellava_tough · Sep 22, 2017

dontcallme said:
We don't know. But we do know 2 players made a complaint against him for racist remarks and there was an investigation of his time at Bristol academy that found his evidence of inappropriate relationships with his players but he wasn't a safeguarding risk.

That is enough for him to have the top management position in the sport.

There were investigations that cleared the guy, by all accounts.

Depends what he did at Bristol, but it's already been stated that it wasn't criminal.

So I don't know why the guy has to be fired.

Not that I'm all that bothered either way :LOL:

Just reflects on the men's football team, because it shows how useless the FA is in general.

Maxtremist · Sep 22, 2017

hellava_tough said:
There were investigations that cleared the guy, by all accounts.

Depends what he did at Bristol, but it's already been stated that it wasn't criminal.

So I don't know why the guy has to be fired.

Not that I'm all that bothered either way Just reflects on the men's football team, because it shows how useless the FA is in general.

So whilst Sampson was cleared for the racism accusation lodged at him, there's been multiple account saying the inquiries were (frankly) a bit shit. I mean the inquiries themselves didn't actually question Aluko or any of the rest of the team. So you have to bear that in mind for all of this.

Then you have the fact that there's a new statement being added to those allegations which is potentially gonna reopen the inquiry and in doing that you'd hope they're gonna question more people and see what happens there.

Along with that, the FA has been alerted to Sampson's past with Bristol Academy and whilst he did nothing illegal (thus the FA didn't have an issue with giving him the job at the time) having looked further into this and the details of it have realised they don't want to support this.

Why that's only come to light now? I don't know. But it has an in doing so the FA seem to feel they want to move on from all of this.

This has a pretty good run down of everything happening.
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ger-of-the-england-women-s-team-a3639901.html

dontcallme · Sep 22, 2017

hellava_tough said:
There were investigations that cleared the guy, by all accounts.

Depends what he did at Bristol, but it's already been stated that it wasn't criminal.

So I don't know why the guy has to be fired.

Not that I'm all that bothered either way Just reflects on the men's football team, because it shows how useless the FA is in general.

You don't need to do something illegal to get fired.

worcestersauce · Sep 22, 2017

Maxtremist said:
I think the discussion/point here is the that line between your club team wearing white VS your country wearing white. As I've said a few times, I have no real issue with this but I can see how others might. If it's your country and their slogan is 'Super White Army' that can sit wrong with a lot of people. As just a club team I feel that sits and feels different which is why the banner on its own isn't wrong, just the context it was used for this particular occasion.

I also raise again that this was whilst Sampson was in the job and I believe they were re-opening/looking back into his racism case so not a great thing to have the 'Super White Army' up during that going on.

Again, for the record, I have no particular issue with the banner itself... but I can understand the FA wanting to not highlight it.

To me there was no context in which it was used, the problem people have with it was the context in which they looked at it and that context is their problem, if they had any justification then I can make an argument that we shouldn't have worn white.
There is not and should not be any context where white is a dirty word.

Rob · Sep 22, 2017

dontcallme said:
You don't need to do something illegal to get fired.

Specifically saying "illegal" by the FA is a bit of a strange turn of phrase.

Regarding safeguarding, etc. as he's in a position of responsibility, wouldn't it be illegal for him to have had any sort of relationship with anyone under 18? By saying he did nothing illegal aren't they saying the rumours are untrue. If they're untrue, what exactly are the "higher standards" that the FA are holding him to?

talkshowhost86 · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
To me there was no context in which it was used, the problem people have with it was the context in which they looked at it and that context is their problem, if they had any justification then I can make an argument that we shouldn't have worn white.
There is not and should not be any context where white is a dirty word.

Well that's clearly bollocks.

The only reason it was an issue at all is because the England team was in the middle of a racism argument at the time. I think in that context, it's more than fair enough to consider whether having a sign which says 'white army' might be best covered up for the duration of the game just to avoid it being an issue.

As I said earlier, personally I think they've made it more of an issue by doing so, so it probably wasn't the right decision. Doesn't mean it shouldn't have been a decision that needed to be made though.

Maxtremist · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
To me there was no context in which it was used, the problem people have with it was the context in which they looked at it and that context is their problem, if they had any justification then I can make an argument that we shouldn't have worn white.
There is not and should not be any context where white is a dirty word.

Well two things on that. One: There'll always be context with anything. No matter what. Everything has context no matter how big or small.

Two: Fair enough that you didn't apply much context to it and I respect that that's your choice, but many others can and might and have applied context to it or notice context from it or react to it in a certain way.

As I've implied a couple of times, it's not directly about the colour. It's not about England playing in white or Tranmere calling themselves the 'Super White Army' or that side of things. It's the context and idea that England at the time had a manager who was in the middle of a race row. You then have the players he manages tweeting things like 'Super White Army' and implying that England and the team are a 'Super White Army'. Whilst that may not have been the intent it's something that has happened as a result of it by some.

The FA (rightly or wrongly) wanted to not focus on that or highlight that. Again... not take it down or ban it or condemn it, just not highlight it.

So I can completely see why it's a bit of an issue.

For my opinion, as a black man growing up and living in England, cheering on the national side and calling them a 'Super White Army' irks me a little bit. Only minority but certainly makes me think. Do I think it was wrong for that banner to be up though? No. Do I think it was wrong for the England team to take pictures with that banner? Not really. Do I understand why the FA wouldn't want to highlight them? Absolutely. I respect that you disagree or may think differently, but that hopefully shouldn't be to the point where you can't slightly empathise or see the other side in some regard.

worcestersauce · Sep 22, 2017

talkshowhost86 said:
Well that's clearly bollocks.

The only reason it was an issue at all is because the England team was in the middle of a racism argument at the time. I think in that context, it's more than fair enough to consider whether having a sign which says 'white army' might be best covered up for the duration of the game just to avoid it being an issue.

As I said earlier, personally I think they've made it more of an issue by doing so, so it probably wasn't the right decision. Doesn't mean it shouldn't have been a decision that needed to be made though.

No it isn't, white is not a dirty word, it wasn't an issue, the decision is the issue and it shouldn't have been made, it displays a lack of understanding leading to a kneejerk reaction that made racist something that wasn't, talk about the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

KILLA_SIN · Sep 22, 2017

The Ebola comment should have been a sackable offense.

worcestersauce · Sep 22, 2017

Maxtremist said:
Well two things on that. One: There'll always be context with anything. No matter what. Everything has context no matter how big or small.

Two: Fair enough that you didn't apply much context to it and I respect that that's your choice, but many others can and might and have applied context to it or notice context from it or react to it in a certain way.

As I've implied a couple of times, it's not directly about the colour. It's not about England playing in white or Tranmere calling themselves the 'Super White Army' or that side of things. It's the context and idea that England at the time had a manager who was in the middle of a race row. You then have the players he manages tweeting things like 'Super White Army' and implying that England and the team are a 'Super White Army'. Whilst that may not have been the intent it's something that has happened as a result of it by some.

The FA (rightly or wrongly) wanted to not focus on that or highlight that. Again... not take it down or ban it or condemn it, just not highlight it.

So I can completely see why it's a bit of an issue.

For my opinion, as a black man growing up and living in England, cheering on the national side and calling them a 'Super White Army' irks me a little bit. Only minority but certainly makes me think. Do I think it was wrong for that banner to be up though? No. Do I think it was wrong for the England team to take pictures with that banner? Not really. Do I understand why the FA wouldn't want to highlight them? Absolutely. I respect that you disagree or may think differently, but that hopefully shouldn't be to the point where you can't slightly empathise or see the other side in some regard.

I'll take your point and it saddens me that you are uncomfortable with reference to the colour of the English shirt because that makes me think it has been hijacked by people using it in the wrong context.
I don't want you to have to feel like that, my problem, and I'm not sure I made my point well, is that decisions like this gift it to them and that can't be right.

Maxtremist · Sep 22, 2017

worcestersauce said:
I'll take your point and it saddens me that you are uncomfortable with reference to the colour of the English shirt because that makes me think it has been hijacked by people using it in the wrong context.
I don't want to have to feel like that, my problem, and I'm not sure I made my point well, is that decisions like this gift it to them and that can't be right.

It's a tricky one, cause as discussed I have no issue with it in isolation. England play in white, we always play in white etc... there's just something about it on a national level that for me doesn't sit well with it when we're using that as a basis to sell/cheer on/support our team. There's just other ways to do it (see thee lions and all that).

In terms of it being hijacked... I don't think it has... it's being aware that for better or worse these instances don't live in a vacuum. This was my point with context, context is always a thing, some more so than others. I'm trying to not make this a whole political or racial thing etc... but some people are more aware/wary or context than others for various reasons. That's part of why I'm not and haven't said don't voice your opinion because your opinion is as valid as mine and I respect yours and all that, more just an understanding that other people have a different opinion that a lot of the time is based on real/serious/genuine beliefs and reasons.

As for this in general, what's wrong with them choosing the option that they thought would hopefully offends the least amount of people? I'm not sure how trying to be good is a bad thing.

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