The England Thread

TheHoddleWaddle · Oct 6, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I think he's just not used to be starved of the ball and felt the need to come looking for it. I don't mind Sterling, I think he gets way more shit than he deserves for England, but he'd be in my England starting 11 just about every time.

I don't disagree. He'd be in my line up too, but he lost the ball a lot yesterday. The set up led to poor provision for the forwards. The focus was on a safe pass back a lot of the time. Against a team like that, who are set up to disrupt and defend its a pointless tactic in my opinion. Especially since Englands main strengths are in attack.

nailsy · Oct 6, 2017

hughy said:
Now that we've qualified, I hope none of our players play on Sunday. It would be typical that Kane, Dier or Alli would pick up a long-term injury in what is effectively a dead rubber.

Not much chance of that though. Alli didn't play yesterday so he'll definitely start. Southgate can't afford to drop Kane and while Dier might get a rest he'll probably be replaced by Winks. I wouldn't be surprised to see all four start.

spursfan77 said:
People will probably laugh, but I think this England team misses Lallana. He's the only attacker we have with any real guile or ability to play a killer pass other than Alli. Plus he's really good at defending from the front.

We should line up with 3 at the back to get those two in the team behind Kane. We'd look so much more dangerous.

Lallana would be my second name on the team sheet behind Kane. Those two, Rashford and Alli are the only players we've got who play without fear.
Rose has been a big miss for England as well.

ComfortablyNumb · Oct 6, 2017

nailsy said:
Not much chance of that though. Alli didn't play yesterday so he'll definitely start. Southgate can't afford to drop Kane and while Dier might get a rest he'll probably be replaced by Winks. I wouldn't be surprised to see all four start.

Lallana would be my second name on the team sheet behind Kane. Those two, Rashford and Alli are the only players we've got who play without fear.
Rose has been a big miss for England as well.

Can you play all four , and still go three at the back?

nailsy · Oct 6, 2017

ComfortablyNumb said:
Can you play all four , and still go three at the back?

I'd go for Lallana in the middle with Dier and then Dele and Rashford further forward supporting Kane.

I'd rather see us have a real go at teams and risk losing, than put in performances like last nights.

ComfortablyNumb · Oct 6, 2017

nailsy said:
I'd go for Lallana in the middle with Dier and then Dele and Rashford further forward supporting Kane.

I'd rather see us have a real go at teams and risk losing, than put in performances like last nights.

Could work. And agree with the sentiment.

LexingtonSpurs · Oct 6, 2017

4-2-3-1

Anyone-but-Hart
Walker Stones Cahill Rose
Dier Barkley
Lallana Dele Rashford
Kane

Bench: Anyone-else-but-Hart, Smalling, Keane, Clyne, Bertrand, Henderson, Winks (Wilshere), Sterling, Lingard, Ox, Vardy, 3rd GK

Marty · Oct 6, 2017

LexingtonSpurs said:
4-2-3-1

Anyone-but-Hart
Walker Stones Cahill Rose
Dier Barkley
Lallana Dele Rashford
Kane

Bench: Anyone-else-but-Hart, Smalling, Keane, Clyne, Bertrand, Henderson, Winks (Wilshere), Sterling, Lingard, Ox, Vardy, 3rd GK

Potentially Keane for Cahill and Winks for Barkley but basically yeah this

Bus-Conductor · Oct 6, 2017

TheHoddleWaddle said:
I don't disagree. He'd be in my line up too, but he lost the ball a lot yesterday. The set up led to poor provision for the forwards. The focus was on a safe pass back a lot of the time. Against a team like that, who are set up to disrupt and defend its a pointless tactic in my opinion. Especially since Englands main strengths are in attack.

As I alluded to above, this risk aversion is just part of the English football decease, like dutch elm, it infests every strata of English football.

They are shit scared of not qualifying so everyone excuses the tedious crap that gets played throughout qualifying as "it's all about qualifying at this stage" then by the time England qualify there's tactically nowhere left to go, they've spent so long with the lofty ambition of "just doing enough to qualify" that it's impossible to reset that in a couple of weeks to "lets play proper football" so then it just becomes lets try and scrape out of the group and if they manage that it's lets try and scrape to the last 16 where they inevitably play a proper football team who make them look silly.

And appointing people like Boothroyd and Simpson to oversee the 2nd and 3rd tier of development is just fostering that ethos. Boothroyd's had a pretty talented bunch of players to work with and has managed to get them somehow emulating the senior team, qualifying and then playing insipid, reactive football, devoid of any clear tactical philosophy at all as soon as they get to tournaments.

kmk · Oct 6, 2017

England need a player like Harry Winks in CM to move the ball faster to the forwards. I might be biased but a Winks/Dier partnership might work.

Led's Zeppelin · Oct 6, 2017

Why not simply try playing like Spurs?

Build the team around the Spurs contingent, including Walker, set them up in the same way that Spurs do, and fill the gaps with players closest to the Spurs player in that position.

Hard to find English Eriksen, Toby and Jan and so on, but do your best. Look for the closest you can get, rather than picking different types of players for jobs they don't understand, switching them around all the time, and even changing the formation to fit your today's favourite player.

At least it gives the team a clear shape and a style they can learn to understand.

We know it can work, we have half the players for it already, and it makes life simpler for everyone. At the very least everyone would know what they need to learn in training, and what they need to try to do during matches. Each non-Spurs player can even learn their job just by studying Spurs throughout the season, rather than waiting for the few days of England training each year. .

Keep doing it, no chopping and changing, no experimenting except for injury cover, just go for it 100% for a couple of years and see if England, with our limited player resources, can compete as effectively with the mega-nations as Spurs can with the mega-rich clubs.

No, of course it won't happen. But we could do a lot worse. And will.

TheHoddleWaddle · Oct 6, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
As I alluded to above, this risk aversion is just part of the English football decease, like dutch elm, it infests every strata of English football.

They are shit scared of not qualifying so everyone excuses the tedious crap that gets played throughout qualifying as "it's all about qualifying at this stage" then by the time England qualify there's tactically nowhere left to go, they've spent so long with the lofty ambition of "just doing enough to qualify" that it's impossible to reset that in a couple of weeks to "lets play proper football" so then it just becomes lets try and scrape out of the group and if they manage that it's lets try and scrape to the last 16 where they inevitably play a proper football team who make them look silly.

And appointing people like Boothroyd and Simpson to oversee the 2nd and 3rd tier of development is just fostering that ethos. Boothroyd's had a pretty talented bunch of players to work with and has managed to get them somehow emulating the senior team, qualifying and then playing insipid, reactive football, devoid of any clear tactical philosophy at all as soon as they get to tournaments.

There's a skill gap to fill, that cannot be filled by the talent pool available. Whilst lallana is a good footballer, I don't think he is the answer to gareths formation. There isn't anyone, English, who can really perform like Eriksen (@Led's Zeppelin ) does for us. In unlocking and creating.

Where Southgate fails even more so, is that he stifles an uncreative team with 2 defensive minded players in the middle.

As you mention above, it needs a manager to pick a formation and tactic that suits the available talent pool.

In England's case, whatever you do would be a bit 1 dimensional but at least there would be crosses, pace and the forwards moght actually get the ball. With sterling and kane that means goals.

Put in a more dynamic CM player and you've got better than that awful display yesterday.

Anyway, pointless. There's no sign of changes on the horizon. Same old same old.

Led's Zeppelin · Oct 6, 2017

TheHoddleWaddle said:
There's a skill gap to fill, that cannot be filled by the talent pool available. Whilst lallana is a good footballer, I don't think he is the answer to gareths formation. There isn't anyone, English, who can really perform like Eriksen (@Led's Zeppelin ) does for us. In unlocking and creating.

Where Southgate fails even more so, is that he stifles an uncreative team with 2 defensive minded players in the middle.

As you mention above, it needs a manager to pick a formation and tactic that suits the available talent pool.

In England's case, whatever you do would be a bit 1 dimensional but at least there would be crosses, pace and the forwards moght actually get the ball. With sterling and kane that means goals.

Put in a more dynamic CM player and you've got better than that awful display yesterday.

Anyway, pointless. There's no sign of changes on the horizon. Same old same old.

Tournament after tournament we see far more limited groups of players (Iceland anyone?) do much better than we do, not just relatively but actually.

So whilst it's true that Lallana is no Eriksen for example, he's still better than the level of the sort of performance we see England put together time after sodding time. The same goes for most of them: not an Iniesta or Ronaldo amongst them but plenty good enough players compared with most nations out there.

So it seems obvious that it's not the quality of the individual players but the management. We all know this though.

We need to go balls-out for a top manager. Not someone who used to be good before they turned 65, not some old git who kept WBA out of the relegation places for a year or two, or someone who might come good in a few years time with a bit of luck and a fair wind, but a current high-level manager who has the charisma as well as footballing intelligence to impose their own ideas on the players and get them to do their jobs to the levels we know they are capable of, which is beating teams like Iceland and going toe-to-toe with anyone, fearing none of them.

And stop spending so much time worrying about your press and PR duties. Upset a few players and managers and reporters if you have to. Do your job and get the players to play with confidence and intelligence. That's all we need.

See. It's easy!

Shadydan · Oct 6, 2017

LexingtonSpurs said:
4-2-3-1

Anyone-but-Hart
Walker Stones Cahill Rose
Dier Barkley
Lallana Dele Rashford
Kane

Bench: Anyone-else-but-Hart, Smalling, Keane, Clyne, Bertrand, Henderson, Winks (Wilshere), Sterling, Lingard, Ox, Vardy, 3rd GK

Barkley as a DMF in a two?

LexingtonSpurs · Oct 6, 2017

Shadydan said:
Barkley as a DMF in a two?

No - more the "Dembele" role - responsible for moving the ball forward, less defensive responsibility - but not "no defensive responsibility"

nailsy · Oct 6, 2017

Strange that Jake Livermore might be playing at the world cup, but Messi might not!

Bus-Conductor · Oct 6, 2017

Led's Zeppelin said:
Tournament after tournament we see far more limited groups of players (Iceland anyone?) do much better than we do, not just relatively but actually.

So whilst it's true that Lallana is no Eriksen for example, he's still better than the level of the sort of performance we see England put together time after sodding time. The same goes for most of them: not an Iniesta or Ronaldo amongst them but plenty good enough players compared with most nations out there.

So it seems obvious that it's not the quality of the individual players but the management. We all know this though.

We need to go balls-out for a top manager. Not someone who used to be good before they turned 65, not some old git who kept WBA out of the relegation places for a year or two, or someone who might come good in a few years time with a bit of luck and a fair wind, but a current high-level manager who has the charisma as well as footballing intelligence to impose their own ideas on the players and get them to do their jobs to the levels we know they are capable of, which is beating teams like Iceland and going toe-to-toe with anyone, fearing none of them.

And stop spending so much time worrying about your press and PR duties. Upset a few players and managers and reporters if you have to. Do your job and get the players to play with confidence and intelligence. That's all we need.

See. It's easy!

I agree with much of this but I don’t think it has to be a “top” manager, it just needs to be someone who is actually a good coach and has the ability to impart some tactical ethos or plan into a group and make selections that are vaguely intuitive with this ethos.

Which almost certainly means a coach who isn’t English, or England just play like international Burnley.

jamesinashby · Oct 6, 2017

Krule said:
Glenn Hoddle's man of the match for England is goalkeeper Joe Hart......says it all.

Glen is a real hero of mine, but with comments like this for a man who shouldn't even be the No 1 choice for having a below average game making only one save of note is disappointing from the Spurs legend. But what would I know as an ex hockey player! lol

COYS

idontgetit · Oct 6, 2017

Dier, Winks and Alli as a CM3 would be great.

Marty · Oct 6, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I agree with much of this but I don’t think it has to be a “top” manager, it just needs to be someone who is actually a good coach and has the ability to impart some tactical ethos or plan into a group and make selections that are vaguely intuitive with this ethos.

Which almost certainly means a coach who isn’t English, or England just play like international Burnley.

Either Football Weekly or The Totally Football Show made a point that a good club manager doesn't make a good international manager, that most international managers have in fact been fairly mediocre at club level. In international management you need to find a man with a clear plan who can pick the right players for his plan and who can communicate said plan to his players in the short period of time they have. Admittedly that sounds easier than it really is but it shouldn't be as hard as the FA make it look.

Col_M · Oct 6, 2017

nailsy said:
Strange that Jake Livermore might be playing at the world cup, but Messi might not!

By logic that makes Jake world class and Messi a has been

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