New Stadium Details And Discussions

davidmatzdorf · Oct 12, 2017

Bulletspur said:
So I am not to have an opinion if it doesn't agree with your perception of things?

It's this kind of malignant shit that has happened to the word "opinion" over the past 10 years or so.

Not all opinions are created equal. Some opinions are based on reality and some are incorrect. Saying someone's opinion is incorrect is not the same as denying them the right to express themselves.

You can say red is green as many times as you want and you have the right to do that, but it doesn't make red into green.

"My opinion" used to mean "I like artichokes" or "I really hate yellow". Not "vaccines are dangerous" (from a non-scientist) or "guns don't kill people, people kill people", or "all these women who say they were harassed are just craving publicity", or "all these Black Lives Matter protesters are just reverse racists", or even "all Chelsea fans are chavs".

The first kind is about personal preference. That's an "opinion" and you can't say "no, you don't like artichokes" or "no, you love yellow", because they're obviously absurd statements.

The second kind is not "opinion". It's an attempted statement of fact based on an absence of information and knowledge. Which generally leads to a false statement.

I go on and on about this because I think it's a really important distinction. I'd propose that the change in the status of "opinion" over the past 10+ years, largely as a result of the internet, is what has delivered us Donald Trump and Brexit.

People ignore facts because "it's my opinion" now means "anything I say is as good as anything you say, even if I don't have any information or understanding".

It isn't. Most opinions are just wrong.

jyoshinmonchris · Oct 12, 2017

davidmatzdorf said:
It's this kind of malignant shit that has happened to the word "opinion" over the past 10 years or so.

Not all opinions are created equal. Some opinions are based on reality and some are incorrect. Saying someone's opinion is incorrect is not the same as denying them the right to express themselves.

You can say red is green as many times as you want and you have the right to do that, but it doesn't make red into green.

"My opinion" used to mean "I like artichokes" or "I really hate yellow". Not "vaccines are dangerous" (from a non-scientist) or "guns don't kill people, people kill people", or "all these women who say they were harassed are just craving publicity", or "all these Black Lives Matter protesters are just reverse racists", or even "all Chelsea fans are chavs".

The first kind is about personal preference. That's an "opinion" and you can't say "no, you don't like artichokes" or "no, you love yellow", because they're obviously absurd statements.

The second kind is not "opinion". It's an attempted statement of fact based on an absence of information and knowledge. Which generally leads to a false statement.

I go on and on about this because I think it's a really important distinction. I'd propose that the change in the status of "opinion" over the past 10+ years, largely as a result of the internet, is what has delivered us Donald Trump and Brexit.

People ignore facts because "it's my opinion" now means "anything I say is as good as anything you say, even if I don't have any information or understanding".

It isn't. Most opinions are just wrong.

Aren't you mixing up facts and opinion? "I like artichokes" and "I really hate yellow" are facts aren't they? Wouldn't the corresponding opinions be "[In my opinion] Artichokes are tasty" and "[In my opinion] Yellow is a disgusting colour"? Both of which can be agreed with and disagreed with by other people in the conversation based on their opinions.

I don't think the problem of the last 10+ years that you're complaining about is people having opinions. It's people not listening to factual evidence when their opinion is proved or disproved. IMHO it's fine for someone to look at the photos and, roughly knowing the published timeline, say that in their opinion the stadium will/will not be ready on time. IMHO it's fine for you to say that in your opinion they're full of shit. IMHO it's not ok for you to then infer that them not doing enough research on the current state of the stadium build before posting their opinion is symptomatic of, in my opinion, two of the stupidest democratic decisions of all time.

But that's just my opinion... maybe.. pretty sure.

Speedy · Oct 12, 2017

Id prefer to not read all this crap about non stadium stuff in this thread. If the answer to the question ‘will it be done on time’ or ‘how will they get the cranes out’ haven’t been answered satisfactorily yet, perhaps there’s not enough to talk about. We don’t need the same question every single week.

arunspurs · Oct 12, 2017

davidmatzdorf said:
You both have absolutely no idea. This guesswork is just a waste of verbiage. I've been working in development for 30 years and I don't know.

You cannot tell progress against target, on a vast job like this, by looking at pictures of a building site. You need a copy of the full building programme in your hands and an extensive walking tour of the site before you can have the slightest bloody clue.

Really. You don't know. None of us know. Stop guessing. It's just air.

What gave the impression that I was guessing . I said I am "pretty confident we will get this completed on time".

"Pretty confident" is not a fact, its not a guess even. Why don't you take it as "I am pretty confident that Spurs will get the job done". This talks more of my hope & trust I have on our club than likes of Mace.

You come up with all sorts of opinion from building perspective. Some of it are really informative for the people who dont work in that sector. I respect that. But same post of yours read by other building gurus, may also say you are actually guessing half the time. So, get off the high horse.

If people express their confidence, just take it as it is & move on. I don't get this need to get ruffled.

Hengy1 · Oct 12, 2017

Can we move on from this now

thebenjamin · Oct 12, 2017

Had quite a few days with very little crane activity due to high winds in north london. Hope this weather doesn't continue as I imagine we've lost a fair bit of time these last couple of weeks.

Ionman34 · Oct 12, 2017

Just to add my little bit to this;

A lot of the conjecture on here is based on what you're seeing externally. The fit out of the structure will also take up a large portion of the programme. David is spot on when he says we have no idea unless we have the updated programme to show the actual completion date, so basing your assessment on what can be seen from the street will be misleading.
What I will say is that they were previously working 24/7 and are no longer doing so due to noise complaints from the locals, so I believe. This would lead me to believe that there may be some delay if the 24/7 was an essential part of achieving programme. Though this again is guesswork as there are ways and means of accelerating by overlapping certain aspects of the work.

I guess the right way to approach this is to not let hopes become expectations. The Contractor will do everything in its power to hit completion, as the liquidated damages would, I expect, be astronomical. Multiplex are a prime example of this with Wembley, the LD's virtually crippled them with their overrun.

It's a note of caution to us more than anything. Don't raise your expectations as we're only seeing the shell being completed and we don't know if the programme has this as on time, ahead or behind, which will likely have an effect on the M&E, fixtures & fittings etc.

davidmatzdorf · Oct 12, 2017

jyoshinmonchris said:
Aren't you mixing up facts and opinion? "I like artichokes" and "I really hate yellow" are facts aren't they? Wouldn't the corresponding opinions be "[In my opinion] Artichokes are tasty" and "[In my opinion] Yellow is a disgusting colour"? Both of which can be agreed with and disagreed with by other people in the conversation based on their opinions.

I don't think the problem of the last 10+ years that you're complaining about is people having opinions. It's people not listening to factual evidence when their opinion is proved or disproved. IMHO it's fine for someone to look at the photos and, roughly knowing the published timeline, say that in their opinion the stadium will/will not be ready on time. IMHO it's fine for you to say that in your opinion they're full of shit. IMHO it's not ok for you to then infer that them not doing enough research on the current state of the stadium build before posting their opinion is symptomatic of, in my opinion, two of the stupidest democratic decisions of all time.

But that's just my opinion... maybe.. pretty sure.

You just commented on a post I didn't write. Perhaps read it again more carefully? Seriously: almost nothing in your post comments on what I actually wrote. Some of it just repeats what I said, but under the impression that you are disagreeing with it. But most of it is just "fish/bicycle": not a response to the arguments that I put forward.

worcestersauce · Oct 12, 2017

On the evidence I see on the latest pictures my confidence in a successful conclusion to this project has been reinforced, I do hope my confidence isn't misplaced as that, in my opinion, would be quite upsetting.
:whistle:

Bulletspur · Oct 12, 2017

davidmatzdorf said:
It's this kind of malignant shit that has happened to the word "opinion" over the past 10 years or so.

Not all opinions are created equal. Some opinions are based on reality and some are incorrect. Saying someone's opinion is incorrect is not the same as denying them the right to express themselves.

You can say red is green as many times as you want and you have the right to do that, but it doesn't make red into green.

"My opinion" used to mean "I like artichokes" or "I really hate yellow". Not "vaccines are dangerous" (from a non-scientist) or "guns don't kill people, people kill people", or "all these women who say they were harassed are just craving publicity", or "all these Black Lives Matter protesters are just reverse racists", or even "all Chelsea fans are chavs".

The first kind is about personal preference. That's an "opinion" and you can't say "no, you don't like artichokes" or "no, you love yellow", because they're obviously absurd statements.

The second kind is not "opinion". It's an attempted statement of fact based on an absence of information and knowledge. Which generally leads to a false statement.

I go on and on about this because I think it's a really important distinction. I'd propose that the change in the status of "opinion" over the past 10+ years, largely as a result of the internet, is what has delivered us Donald Trump and Brexit.

People ignore facts because "it's my opinion" now means "anything I say is as good as anything you say, even if I don't have any information or understanding".

It isn't. Most opinions are just wrong.

I still have the right to comment, whether or not you agree its an opinion, or whether this "opinion" is right or wrong in your book, I couldn't give a rat's ass. I am not asking or saying anything unreasonable, illegal or immoral, so until the Mods say otherwise, I will continue to post my "opinions", even it goes against your stance. And for the record, in my opinion, my opinions are just that, opinions, honestly! (y)

Speedy · Oct 12, 2017

Bulletspur said:
I still have the right to comment, whether or not you agree its an opinion, or whether this "opinion" is right or wrong in your book, I couldn't give a rat's ass. I am not asking or saying anything unreasonable, illegal or immoral, so until the Mods say otherwise, I will continue to post my "opinions", even it goes against your stance. And for the record, in my opinion, my opinions are just that, opinions, honestly!

Stop spamming the god damn thread with your shit man. Hopefully the mods wil restore some sanity, it’s like listening to the ramblings of a retard

Bulletspur · Oct 12, 2017

Speedy said:
Stop spamming the god damn thread with your shit man. Hopefully the mods wil restore some sanity, it’s like listening to the ramblings of a retard

Is that your opinion? Be careful retards may take offence! I was merely defending my right to have my opinion and free speech

Well back on topic then. There seems to be still quite alot to be done to the stadium despite the daily progress. So looking forward to the official opening. I believe this is one project that they should have a comprehensive documentary highlighting the whole build from start to finish with explanations and anecdotes

WorcesterTHFC · Oct 12, 2017

thebenjamin said:
Had quite a few days with very little crane activity due to high winds in north london. Hope this weather doesn't continue as I imagine we've lost a fair bit of time these last couple of weeks.

When they drew up the costs and schedules for this project, they probably took such delays into account in order to give themselves a bit of breathing space. Anyone who's lived in England for any decent length of time knows that our weather isn't exactly reliable, even at the best of times.

Bulletspur · Oct 12, 2017

WorcesterTHFC said:
When they drew up the costs and schedules for this project, they probably took such delays into account in order to give themselves a bit of breathing space. Anyone who's lived in England for any decent length of time knows that our weather isn't exactly reliable, even at the best of times.

I agree. I would think that provisions would have been made for adverse weather and the likes, which would have been factored into the whole time line and schedules

ERO · Oct 12, 2017

I like artichokes, I think they're tasty.

worcestersauce · Oct 12, 2017

ERO said:
I like artichokes, I think they're tasty.

Step away from thekeyboard, NOW!!!

Led's Zeppelin · Oct 12, 2017

Well, there are still around 300 days to go till next August, and they seem to work on the site day and night every day, so I see no reason to suppose anything regarding the the completion date unless we have any specific information to base doubts on.

And from what I can see the site is extremely busy now with multiple major works going on simultaneously and it's looking more like a top-class football stadium every day. Literally, every day, which is what you'd probably expect at this stage.

So my guess, and it is a guess, is that we'll be seeing football at White Hart Lane (!) at the start of next season, and Wemley can go back to being the home of the play-off finals and a few other sideshow entertainments.

DanielCHillier · Oct 12, 2017

Some great pictures just tweeted out by the official account.

worcestersauce · Oct 12, 2017

Just looking at the live streams and it looks like the corner framework has connected the south stand to the rest of the stadium, a complete circle now.

TaoistMonkey · Oct 12, 2017

Can all the "Experts" chill out and let us plebs speculate about if we think it will be done on time?

Unless you are on the project or giving Levy a handjob nobody knows fuck all.

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