What's new

New Stadium Details And Discussions

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
When they drew up the costs and schedules for this project, they probably took such delays into account in order to give themselves a bit of breathing space. Anyone who's lived in England for any decent length of time knows that our weather isn't exactly reliable, even at the best of times.

I agree. I would think that provisions would have been made for adverse weather and the likes, which would have been factored into the whole time line and schedules

I'm hoping you're right. It's arguably one of the advantages of the "construction management" form of procurement they are using: the programme gets set by Mace, who are paid a fee for their services, as opposed to design-and-build or traditional procurement, where the building contractor gets paid for the work completed, plus a profit margin.

The problem that arises then is that contractors have to compete to win the tender with the lowest price. Time is money: the more quickly you can build, the less it will cost. Thus there is an incentive for contractors to make hopelessly optimistic assumptions for how quickly they can build, to make their tenders as competitive as possible.

A common part of this tendency is taking a "fingers crossed" approach to bad weather ... and then bunging in a claim for extended time due to "exceptionally inclement weather", based on snowstorms and rain in winter. I can't tell you how many times I have had to remind a contractor that snowstorms and rain in the British winter are not "exceptional", while telling them where they can insert their spurious claim ;).
 

dovahkiin

Damn you're ugly !
May 18, 2012
3,319
89,222
edmonton on stadium ready for next season (probably more educated guess than itk though, i guess you cant be fully itk on this):
Have faith. If late won't be by much.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
When they drew up the costs and schedules for this project, they probably took such delays into account in order to give themselves a bit of breathing space. Anyone who's lived in England for any decent length of time knows that our weather isn't exactly reliable, even at the best of times.
The Contractor would account for time risk analysis (TRA) and float in the programme. However, it is unlikely that inclement weather would have been allowed into the programme as it is generally accepted over here that weather is the Contractor's risk.

You also have to appreciate that the Client (THFC) dictates the completion date most of the time, the Contractor generally provides a resource loaded programme that meets the timeframe but has costs reflecting this.

Mostly though, it is about how much risk either party is prepared to take. If the Client insists that the Contractor shoulder most of the risk, the Contractor then prices accordingly (I'm currently putting a risk register together now) and submits the tender with cost and time associated with the risk included.

Having said this, much will depend on the nature of any delay. If the delay is Client caused (design error, the Client deciding to change an aspect of the design etc) then the Contractor is entitled to an Extension of Time (EOT) complete with associated costs arising from the delay, including overheads, and this will protect them from LD's. If inclement weather is not the Contractors risk then they get EOT but without costs.

The whole thing depends on the contract. For example, an NEC contract gives you 5 options ranging from option A (lump sum where the Contractor assumes virtually all the risk) to option E, which is a cost plus if the Contractor feels the risks outweigh the opportunities.

As far as the programme is concerned, if they are behind then they can go into "acceleration." This is effectively where the Contractor saturates the job with the maximum amount of plant, labour etc that it can get into the job to get it done as fast as possible. It is extremely expensive. But, if the Client orders it due to causing the delay, it's because the lost revenue would outweigh the extra over cost. If the Contractor has caused the delay then he is likely to accelerate because the extra cost will be significantly less than the LD's.

Spurs could likely levy (scuse the pun) LD's in the region of millions per week, as the revenue loss would be 7 figures, so it's in everyone's best interest to get the job finished on time really.
 

Bulletspur

The Reasonable Advocate
Match Thread Admin
Oct 17, 2006
10,690
25,246
The Contractor would account for time risk analysis (TRA) and float in the programme. However, it is unlikely that inclement weather would have been allowed into the programme as it is generally accepted over here that weather is the Contractor's risk.

You also have to appreciate that the Client (THFC) dictates the completion date most of the time, the Contractor generally provides a resource loaded programme that meets the timeframe but has costs reflecting this.

Mostly though, it is about how much risk either party is prepared to take. If the Client insists that the Contractor shoulder most of the risk, the Contractor then prices accordingly (I'm currently putting a risk register together now) and submits the tender with cost and time associated with the risk included.

Having said this, much will depend on the nature of any delay. If the delay is Client caused (design error, the Client deciding to change an aspect of the design etc) then the Contractor is entitled to an Extension of Time (EOT) complete with associated costs arising from the delay, including overheads, and this will protect them from LD's. If inclement weather is not the Contractors risk then they get EOT but without costs.

The whole thing depends on the contract. For example, an NEC contract gives you 5 options ranging from option A (lump sum where the Contractor assumes virtually all the risk) to option E, which is a cost plus if the Contractor feels the risks outweigh the opportunities.

As far as the programme is concerned, if they are behind then they can go into "acceleration." This is effectively where the Contractor saturates the job with the maximum amount of plant, labour etc that it can get into the job to get it done as fast as possible. It is extremely expensive. But, if the Client orders it due to causing the delay, it's because the lost revenue would outweigh the extra over cost. If the Contractor has caused the delay then he is likely to accelerate because the extra cost will be significantly less than the LD's.

Spurs could likely levy (scuse the pun) LD's in the region of millions per week, as the revenue loss would be 7 figures, so it's in everyone's best interest to get the job finished on time really.
Do you know if there is a sliding scale of penalties against the constructor, based on time limits if project runs behind schedule?
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
Do you know if there is a sliding scale of penalties against the constructor, based on time limits if project runs behind schedule?
Penalties are actually illegal. The Client will set a Liquidated Damage that the Contractor will agree to within the contract. This is simplifying it somewhat though as there are damages and LD's. Even then, it is not a given that the Contractor will have to pay the LD as the Client still has to prove that the LD actually reflects a genuine loss of income. I've been involved in a project with an arse of a Client who set an arbitrary sum as an LD and tried to cash in on it. My company proved that they suffered zero loss of revenue so paid nothing as the arbiter decided it construed a penalty, regardless of what was agreed in the contract.

In answer to your question, no, there isn't a sliding scale to LD's. They are imposed from the instant that the agreed completion or Practical completion date has been overrun and they are a fixed rate.

Just to clarify, Practical Completion (PC) is the date when it is agreed that sufficient quantity of the works have been completed for it to be "fit for purpose." This is usually when the LD's are calculated against. So, whilst the Contractor may still be working on, he's protected from the LD's. so they could still be working on the project even while we're in there watching the game (not on match day obviously, DL ain't letting anyone see the game for free!)
 

dondo

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,603
14,091
Alan Brazil on talksport just said he's heard that they is no chance stadium will be ready for next season
 

Rocksuperstar

Isn't this fun? Isn't fun the best thing to have?
Jun 6, 2005
53,290
66,758
Alan Brazil on talksport just said he's heard that they is no chance stadium will be ready for next season

And the rest of the program has been Ray Wilkins going on about how cold it is in the studio, without resorting to point out that Brazil isn't cold as he generates more heat than a blast furnace, simply from the density.
 

L-man

Misplaced pass from Dier
Dec 31, 2008
9,979
51,364
15AF3411-8346-487D-83AA-9EFBF4248B88.jpeg
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Apparently Alan Brazil is today's self-appointed expert on building programmes.

Everyone has an "opinion", eh?


[I used to watch him when he played for Ipswich, as my partner in those days came from a Ipswich supporting family and we often went to Portman Rd. I don't recall any of his performances in his brief stint with Spurs. Good winger, though.]
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Penalties are actually illegal. The Client will set a Liquidated Damage that the Contractor will agree to within the contract. This is simplifying it somewhat though as there are damages and LD's. Even then, it is not a given that the Contractor will have to pay the LD as the Client still has to prove that the LD actually reflects a genuine loss of income. I've been involved in a project with an arse of a Client who set an arbitrary sum as an LD and tried to cash in on it. My company proved that they suffered zero loss of revenue so paid nothing as the arbiter decided it construed a penalty, regardless of what was agreed in the contract.

In answer to your question, no, there isn't a sliding scale to LD's. They are imposed from the instant that the agreed completion or Practical completion date has been overrun and they are a fixed rate.

Just to clarify, Practical Completion (PC) is the date when it is agreed that sufficient quantity of the works have been completed for it to be "fit for purpose." This is usually when the LD's are calculated against. So, whilst the Contractor may still be working on, he's protected from the LD's. so they could still be working on the project even while we're in there watching the game (not on match day obviously, DL ain't letting anyone see the game for free!)

Do we work in the same office...?
 
Top