Will we win a trophy under Poch?

StartingPrice · Oct 26, 2017

Bobbins said:
You've contradicted yourself in both posts SP

Please to show where parts of posts contradict other parts of posts.

N.B. Saying the way some folk are absolutely one hundred percent writing off our chances of winning the league and that losing last night's game does not end our season, does not contradict saying that I would like to win the League Cup.
Saying that Poch didn't say he didn't want to win the League or FA Cup is a statement of fact. he didn't. That doesn't mean that I am contradicting it by saying that I would rather he didn't say it. Nor does it contradict saying that by making his comments he may have given the feeling to the players that it was a bit low key and they needn't have the same focus and intensity.

So, please show somewhere that specifically contradicts somewhere in the posts so I can either accept it or refute it. Ta.

and I strongly disagree with certain parts of both.

Yes, but you have missed the point. Part of both posts contains statements that are the same as what you have been arguing...but you have given a <Disagree> to all of each post. So you are disagreeing with the things that say the same as what you have said. That just doesn't make any sense. Perhaps you would have been better saying what you agreed with in my posts and when explaining the bits you disagreed with and why.

Sorry.

No need to be sorry...unless it is because you realise that disagreeing with entire posts even though parts of those posts echo what you have said earlier in the thread, doesn't actually make much sense. Or if you show where you think I have contradicted myself and I prove that there is no contradiction there

[EDIT] Really @Bobbins, really <sighs> another <Disagree>. I asked you, genuinely, if you could show me where you think I've contradicted myself. If you do I will either agree that it sounds a bit contradictory or explain why I don't think I have contradicted myself at all. And you just continue to throw one <Disagree> or another out there. It's a bit poor. I've read right through the thread before making any comment and there are lots of your posts I could press my little <Disagree> button for but don't because tit-for-tat is so childish, and I don't generally use negs. But it is a bit poor on your part, TBH.

And just for the record, I don't think I have contradicted myself - that is why I genuinely asked you to show me where I had.

nicdic · Oct 26, 2017

Bobbins said:
This is nonsense, absolutely no-one has suggested this for one second - why are you just making stuff up?

Except for the fact that no games happen in a vacuum, and if we're going to prioritise the league cup that means resting players else where. So in this world where you, or whoever, prioritises the league cup over the league, we're left with the inverse team selections, which basically no one here would be happy with.

nicdic · Oct 26, 2017

Bobbins said:
2 and 3 with a sprinkling of 1.

All those scenarios have a bearing because the overall point is the dismissing of the domestic cups (and previously the Europa League) as being beneath us somehow. This comes from every aspect of the club, staff, players and fans. It's a general arrogant atmosphere that pervades Tottenham Hotspur at the moment when it comes to domestic cup success (or lack of).

And no, it won't all be forgotten if we win (not by me, anyway).

We have the same thing most years when we get dumped out in the cups under Poch - and most people do forget as they get caught up in the euphoria of finishing high up in the league.

But we still don't have a trophy to show for all our progress, and until we do, we need to stop acting like the cups are beneath us as fans and as a club, and we need to stop excusing failure by saying "all will be forgotten as long as we win the next game".

No one at the club has dismissed the domestic cups, people love to twist Poche's words, but that's not what was said. No one is saying dismiss the cups.

Bobbins · Oct 26, 2017

nicdic said:
No one at the club has dismissed the domestic cups, people love to twist Poche's words, but that's not what was said. No one is saying dismiss the cups.

Ironic when in the post above you have decided to declare that people such as myself have suggested we should be prioritising the LC over the League, or suggesting Kane should've played last night and be rested against United - which as I said before is complete nonsense, which no-one has said and which you are the only person to suggest. You're literally making stuff up. The trouble is this is an Internet forum so it's incredibly obvious to everyone that you're doing it, so you're not doing yourself any favours. It's Trump-esque.

Look if you've read any of my posts on this and you still don't get it then I'd suggest you're just not going to at all. I've said numerous times the team selection was fine and it's the attitude of the club and fans that's wrong. I'm not going through all this again. We needn't discuss it at all as long as you stop randomly accusing myself and others of saying things we absolutely cataforically never said or even suggested.

fenman · Oct 26, 2017

The thread title asks if we will win trophies not if we could. Of course we could win trophies - but not if we throw away 2 goal leads in home cup games.
Secondly, neither Poch nor us as a club have won trophies recently - or in his case at all. Again, that doesn't mean we can't or wont but there must at least be some reason to doubt. I have faith we can and I can see how we are a better team than we have been for a long time. That does not mean I am certain we will win trophies just looking at recent history in this poll the safer bet is the probably not option.

Mr Pink · Oct 26, 2017

Gaz_Gammon said:
This is the crux of the matter.

Woolwhich for all of their trials and tribulations have won four trophies in three years, and yet we take the piss out of them? What would any Spurs fan give to have won half of them? Even one of them?

How can this young team learn to win a final if they haven't experienced a final, any final (or even made the final!). Like you have said being discerning over which silverware to opt into, or out of. is the choice of Champions and not an option for also-rans.

This morning we are still also-rans.

And yet they're totally fucking miserable lol

SpursDave88 · Oct 26, 2017

People focus far to much on what a team has done in the past. It has no relevance, it is just stupid people's way of looking at things.

Spurs have a great manager and a talented group of players who are more than capable of beating any team should things go their way. This group have gone close to winning the league before. I have no doubt we will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. Should we win on Saturday and City drop any points, suddenly the picture looks very favorable for us.

Either way it is a long season and we are more than good enough to win the league with the players we have.

Lighty64 · Oct 26, 2017

Damian99 said:
Unless we go on to win something this season - then i may start to have doubts as to whether Poch will deliver silverware - Not sure losing in any cup Competition is a good thing unless something bigger is delivered instead - Nor am i sure when we go so above ourselves we can belittle this cup competition as meaningless. I am sure most clubs would love to win bigger major trophies too but when you haven't won fuck all for years, anywhere Silverware would be a good start imo.

it's not a case of belittling this cup, we just don't have the squad depth to cope with playing in all 4 competitions. we took enough chances with players last night, and I believe the players took it for granted when cruising at 2-0, just like a very big % of our support did. at halftime I was wandering who i'd prefer us to play in the quarters

Archibald&Crooks · Oct 26, 2017

SpursDave88 said:
People focus far to much on what a team has done in the past. It has no relevance, it is just stupid people's way of looking at things.

Spurs have a great manager and a talented group of players who are more than capable of beating any team should things go their way. This group have gone close to winning the league before. I have no doubt we will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. Should we win on Saturday and City drop any points, suddenly the picture looks very favorable for us.

Either way it is a long season and we are more than good enough to win the league with the players we have.

Not posted from a smart phone then

rossdapep · Oct 26, 2017

nicdic said:
Rubbish. All of it gets written down in books. People record all of it. But realistically no one will be all that bothered about league cup wins, it's just the way it is now.

I think very few people have actually argued we should just sack off the domestic cups, I don't actually remember reading anyone on here, or elsewhere saying we should throw them, they just aren't as high a priority. It makes for an easier argument if you pretend everyone is saying they don't care though I guess.

The club and fans also aren't saying we're bigger than the domestic cups, they're just saying they fit in a list of priorities, and don't find themselves at the top. All of us (club, manager, players, fans) would love to win them, but not at the expense or cost of league progression or CL progression. We could well win the league, and who knows with CL, sure it'd be a stretch but we just drew away at the reigning back-to-back champs, could we beat them in a one-off? Why not?

This whole domestic cups thing being a great platform is of course true, but let's not re-write history and pretend that people like Mourinho prioritised domestic cup wins over the league or CL. The top teams all approach them in the same way. They rest and rotate squads, and if they happen to get to semi-finals and finals they bring in the top players. We've done the same but come up short twice in Poch's reign. People act like Mourinho picked a full strength team on the way to win these league cups down the years. That never happened as far as I'm aware. Of course is we got to a final and won it would be great, and serve as potentially a great platform, but it's not as big as some people are making out.

Poch hasn't said the domestic cups are below us, he's just said we prioritise the league and CL, like any sane fan would. You have to prioritise, and drawing the line anywhere else is stupid. Should we sack off the league in order to win the Carabao Cup only then to find us well off the pace in the league come February?

All of this is of course somewhat pointless, because we had a team more than good enough to win last night, and it was complacency from players that should know better that cost us. It's fine to be annoyed at the result from last night, but this whole trophies conversation is stupid in my opinion.

Exactly, and I'd add that players won't come to a club who has won the league cup but hasn't qualified for the CL or is seen as one of the best in the league. High calibre players won't care about that. They want to play for a club who is striving for the best honours and is a regular CL club, not a club who won the least appealing trophy.

If we aim high and continue to do so then we are putting the club in a great position to win the best honours down the line. It's absolutely correct to prioritise the league and CL over the league cup.

I also don't think it's arrogant to say we are above winning the league cup, we clearly want to win the best honours and are in a great position to do so. Saying that we should be happy to win any trophy is a little bit small time and won't resonate with certain players, they want the highest honours possible.

If Mourinho and co left United without securing the title or FA Cup, i'm pretty certain they'd look back with some regret despite winning the Europa Cup and League Cup.

danielneeds · Oct 26, 2017

SpursDave88 said:
People focus far to much on what a team has done in the past. It has no relevance, it is just stupid people's way of looking at things.

Spurs have a great manager and a talented group of players who are more than capable of beating any team should things go their way. This group have gone close to winning the league before. I have no doubt we will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. Should we win on Saturday and City drop any points, suddenly the picture looks very favorable for us.

Either way it is a long season and we are more than good enough to win the league with the players we have.

The past’s only relevance is in the ghosts carried by the fans. It’s that negative energy in the crowd when things go against us. If we could all be more like Poch and harness that positive energy, we’d be even harder to keep down, and hopefully the idea of a rebirth will be a powerful message when we move into the new stadium.

dontcallme · Oct 26, 2017

If Poch stays a few more seasons, I think he will, then I'm confident we will win something.

In three seasons he has taken us to a league cup final and FA Cup semi final. At the same time he has improved our league results.

So I don't think he completely neglects the cups. He clearly wants to challenge for the league but our squad is getting stronger and he is rotating and changing our lineups with more confidence so I expect a trophy soon, just not sure which one.

Bus-Conductor · Oct 26, 2017

I hate this "they haven't won a trophy" bollocks.

I've seen us win trophies at various times over the last few decades, it didn't altar my perspective of how good those teams were one bit. I remember Pleats team that blew it at the final (or close) hurdle in three competitions as one of the best Spurs teams I've watched and Graham's team that did win a trophy as pretty fucking meh.

Look at Arsenal, been winning cups regularly the last three or four years, their manager still gets shit almost weekly, and their players are constantly called legends.

We've got the best coach we've had for 50 years, some really good players, play the best football we have for 50 years give or take a season or two here and there in that time.

Winning the league cup won't alter that reality.

Bus-Conductor · Oct 26, 2017

Bobbins said:
I know what he's saying, but the rest of that post is bollocks. Saying "no-one will care two hoots about cup wins down the line" is the exact 100% opposite of the truth.

The only thing which will show in the record books, which will inspire future generations and which will form part of the rich history of the club, is winning trophies. It's the top four finishes and the CL knockout stage exits that won't be recorded, that no-one will remember, that no-one will give two hoots about.

Everyone knows Poch is prioritising the League and CL and that's perfectly understandable given they are the tougher games and bigger rewards. The problem isn't the relative weighting of importance - it's the history of writing the domestic cups off completely, and the attitude of some fans that 1, the cups aren't important in any way and 2, that they're actually somehow an inconvenience to us because we're trying to win bigger pots.

The hubris of this thinking is astonishing - our recent history shows that we have won absolutely fuck all! We are not United, Chelsea or Arsenal, who can justifiably say they have a recent history of winning these cups and so can be excused in saying they're now pushing for the bigger targets. We can't just suddenly decide we're an uber club who are too big for the cups - we're not.

We're not going to win the league. We're definitely not going to win the CL. We do need to keep finishing in the top four for a variety of reasons. We should be looking at the domestic cups as the perfect platforms to achieve real success, and to launch the club into this new era of becoming a true uber club. We can afford to win the precisely because we're not going to win the other prizes. We can win them without damaging our top four hopes. We can win them because the fans have been suffering for years watching our rivals win everything. We can win them to get our players some damn medals and to get rid of the millstone around our necks that says you'll never win anything with Tottenham.

We are not the massive club some people (including Poch) seem to think we are - not yet - and the domestic cups are not below us, as some people seem to think.

The results and league tables are in the record books too Bobbins. Cups are rarely a platform of success, they are invariably just a by product of it. When we won the cup under Graham or Ramos it wasn't a platform to greater successes. Arsenal won cups recently then finished outside the top 4 for the first time in two decades.

Poch far from wrote off the cups, if anything I'm annoyed that he took them too seriously when he should be using the league cup to develop more of our promising kids. Instead he played an almost entire first team group against West Ham.

SpursDave88 · Oct 26, 2017

Archibald&Crooks said:
Not posted from a smart phone then

You got me

SpursDave88 · Oct 26, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I hate this "they haven't won a trophy" bollocks.

I've seen us win trophies at various times over the last few decades, it didn't altar my perspective of how good those teams were one bit. I remember Pleats team that blew it at the final (or close) hurdle in three competitions as one of the best Spurs teams I've watched and Graham's team that did win a trophy as pretty fucking meh.

Look at Arsenal, been winning cups regularly the last three or four years, their manager still gets shit almost weekly, and their players are constantly called legends.

We've got the best coach we've had for 50 years, some really good players, play the best football we have for 50 years give or take a season or two here and there in that time.

Winning the league cup won't alter that reality.

Exactly!!!

ohtottenham! · Oct 27, 2017

I can see the points of view on all sides of this debate, and I hated the manner in which we capitulated yesterday. But, if I was asked in advance, over the 7 days, would I have taken a score draw away against Real, an absolute tonking of Liverpool at Wembley, and that shambles yesterday in the Carabao Cup…? In a heartbeat!

Spurger King · Oct 27, 2017

ohtottenham! said:
I can see the points of view on all sides of this debate, and I hated the manner in which we capitulated yesterday. But, if I was asked in advance, over the 7 days, would I have taken a score draw away against Real, an absolute tonking of Liverpool at Wembley, and that shambles yesterday in the Carabao Cup…? In a heartbeat!

I tend to agree, but you might feel very different at the end of the season.

ohtottenham! · Oct 27, 2017

Spurger King said:
I tend to agree, but you might feel very different at the end of the season.

Well, for me, top 4 beats the Carabao hands down. Getting further in the CL than we've done in recent years also. Don't think I'll be left with any great Carabao regret, whatever happens. I'd love us to win the FA Cup again though.

PeeEyeEmPee · Oct 27, 2017

StartingPrice said:
I very rarely give out NEGS, and by that I really do mean hardly ever...even in response to Negs given against me by others (even when they seem a bit pathetic). But I am absolutely making a point of giving you a <Disagee> and saying so, to.

1) Actually, a lot of folk believe that if we had held out to half time at Stamford Bridge last season, we would have won that game. We were by far the better team in the first half, and by equalising so late in the half the Chavs very clearly came out with renewed vigour and belief. How many points did Chelsea beat us by? That would have been three more for us and three less for them. More importantly, if was a part of their fantastic run, and they may not have had that run, or had that run so emphatically. So, but for that game we may well have won the title. So, yes, actually we were in a title race last year. We came pretty close to it and we very much were in a title race. Likewise, we could have went ahead of Leicester when it was clearly coming down to us and them. Fixtures were arranged in a way that massively benefited them, teams and managers made it clear that they were derperate to stop us while being powder-puff against them. And even so, going into the last four games, it took banning of our players for less than Wayne Rooney got away with in any select thirty second slot of his entire career, virtual assault, condoned by the officials, to the were we reacted and teams saying they want Leicester to win it for their friend Ranieri before putting out a team without a striker and then basically giving Leicester the ball to score (I'm talking about Swansea), going into the last few games, to ensure that they maintained (and even grew) their points advantage. That IS a title race!

2) Jaysus wept, that is the exact attitude that is gnawing the tats off me. YES we have a chance of winning the title this season. We are not favourites...but we have a bloody chance. We are second (joint) after nine games in a 38 game season, second favourites in the bookies, and still have to play the leaders twice. It is a marathon not the Award the Most Expensively Assembled Team the Trophy League. And YOU have literally zero knowledge of what happens. If you have to tell yourself there is no chance of us winning the title so that you won't have any hope and then you won't be all upset if we don't do it, you go right ahead and do that. But stop stating something that is defeatist and lazy and cowardly as an absolute fact!

3) What we have won in the last 25 has exactly the grand total of zero relevance. We have been progressing as a club and team from a point of near collapse. This is an upward trajectory. We are close to the endgame now. If you really can't see that we have improved dramatically both as a club and as a team then you are literally binded by your own fear. If you can't see that picking any point previous point on an upward trajectory is going to give you nothing but a false inference then, sorry, but perhaps the you are lacking certain cognitive skills.

4) The attitude that domestic cups are beneath us is not only, at best, unproven (I certainly don't have that attitude) but also another total irrelevance in regard to whether we actually have any chance of winning the title. Being knocked out of the League Cup may help us in the quest to win the league, and it may not...and not a one of us actually knows either way right now!

5) Poch never said he is only interested in the BPL and CL. He only voiced what ever single other person on the planet knows. Perhaps he shouldn't have voiced that opinion - as said in my last post, I don't think he should have said it. But he didn't say he didn't want to win them, and he didn't say he wasn't interested in them.

6) When, exactly, was the last time Leicester won something before winning the BPL title?

7) As said in my previous post, I agree with you completely about Mourinho.

Just to be clear, I am so sick that vomit may burst out of every vein and capillary, as my mouth is overflowing, at this frequently stated insistence that we have zero chance of winning the league. Just support the team in every single match and believe that if that means we win more games than City or anyone else we will win the league. That is literally all you need to now. And we have just shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that we can get a result against absolutely any club, last season we showed we can be very consistent, and we have improved this year. Just stop with the we have zero chance of winning the league BS or promise me that if we do win it you will force yourself to take zero pleasure out of it, please.

p.s. Just to clarify, because I know this confuses the beejaysus outta folk: I am not saying we will win the league, so you can throw this back at me if we don't win the league (or come second, or finish outside the top four) if you want, but it will be a bit pathetic.

wow, I don't even know where to start with all of this. what a mess.

all the ifs and buts in the world don't matter in the slightest. I don't care about what could've happened, but I do know that what didn't happen was us getting close enough to either of Chelsea or Leicester to be serious challengers. fact. at best, we were merely best of the rest. or second-best of the rest in Leicester's case.

could you point me to where I said we have NO chance of winning the league?

or where I've said we haven't improved dramatically as a club over the last 25 years?

you've literally just invented arguments to get wide-eyed and frothy-mouthed over. very bizarre.

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