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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,873
15,942
Kane is phenomenal and it is incredible what he is achieving especially having not cost us a penny, and has now become our most valuable player ever. I have been reading the forum about whether or not he is our greatest player and I keep seeing a few other names come up in the debate, and whether it is purely coincidental or not it has pointed me back to this debate.

So some have suggested Kane is our greatest ever player, but who is the name that regularly gets brought up as a challenge to Kane in the last thirty years, Bale, Modric, VDV, Berbatov? (clearly showing my age) no. The names I keep seeing come up are Hoddle, Gascoigne and King. 3 of the 4 best players fans have seen in the last 30 years cost us, nothing. They are all from our academy. That excludes Campbell who some have also speculated has been one of the best. Is this purely coincidental. This doesn't even take into account how much better our academy is and the improvement in our player development. Outside of ability maybe there is more that comes through being an academy player. Maybe the wanting to do more for your club, maybe being settled and in comfortable surroundings, maybe being constantly surrounded by quality.

When you think about how few academy players come through compared to signings we make and as a percentage more of ended up being top quality players. And ti can't always be just because the right ones were brought through by managers. Some managers used more than others, some had agendas, some got lucky, but still the academy players have by in large been a success and or earned us a lot of money. We constantly chase World Class players from other clubs, but when they come through us, people still believe it's luck or just chance. I've read more than one time, we shouldn't expect to bring more than one player through a season which is fine, or not everyone will be good enough, but we're seeing just as many or more successes as percentage come from the academy than we are signings. I've seen a few players that have come and go that I thought were on Kane's level of ability recently, and we have a few more who we still haven't seen get chances yet.What is the worse that can go wrong. We keep chasing quality elsewhere when it is likely still under our nose. Again this isn't to say stop buying from elsewhere as there most definitely is quality out there and in our current team, but this belief that we shouldn't expect any top quality again because we have Kane is BS. Surely the logic should be look what has happened, let's try it again. With signings we keep going over and over again despite rarely finding World Class.

I know I also seem against it but I do still largely agree about signings top class young talent as I think again that helps as they get to settle at the club for quite a while get comfortable experience being around quality players early and receive top class coaching before tapping into their ability. I just don't think we need to sign those players in positions we already have quality.

For a bit of fun, I though I'd try and come up with an academy developed team who have played for in the last 30 years. I will need some help from those that have seen everyone play, but I'd be as good or close to a signed 11.

-------------------Walker------------
Carr-------Campbell-King--------Rose
Barmby---Hoddle--Bentaleb---Townsend--
--------------Kane-----Crouch

I actually don't really know how good Barmby was for us but heard he was decent. If you open up the criteria to 35 years you could include Perryman. If you also opened it up to players who were in our academy played a game or two then were let go the

---------------------Walker---------------
Perryman-Campbell-King-------Rose
----------------Hoddle-Souness--------
Barmby---------Bentaleb-----Townsend
---------------------Kane---------------------

I'm sure I'm forgetting some players but on the bench we would have
Carr, Houghton, Winks, Caulker, Smith, Mason, Crouch, Pritchard, Carroll

If you include players we signed at 18 or under we could also include Bale and Lennon. Either way that would be a really good PL team, and considering, we so rarely give academy players a chance, being able to put that team out even against the best signed 11 which will have so many more players to choose from is mightily impressive. I'm also still yet to hear of an academy player that came through and completely flopped after numerous chances.

As I said there are players we have let go that I believe would have made the above team, but fortunately there are players we still have that I believe could displace some players in the team above, so why not give them a go. There isn't a limit to how many successful players we can bring through, i we've done it once we can in all likely do it again.

Gazza definitely wasn't from our academy...
In fact, he was a British record transfer.
 
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Streetspur77

Happy Clapper
Jul 20, 2017
2,792
9,404
As BG said he was at a club and in a league more well-renowned for giving academy players chances. He hasn't come close to translating that here due to the different conditions. I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if the 20 players were brought through more out of necessity. Regardless and without sounding like I'm tarring his achievements at the end of the day he hasn't done it here, and is just as bad as the other managers, which is exactly what I'm annoyed about. The country that is producing the best players is also giving significantly less chances. If Poch had even brought through a 5th of what he did at Espanyol I'd be jumpinig for joy and say he has done excellently as that would have equated to one per season which I think is very very plausible. He has only done a 20th of that in 4 years, that type of drop-off indicates that it wasn't because he was some trend setter but like I said suggests like his hand was more forced. That reputation stuck with him and now we're just expected to accept that he will make the right decisions. Either way I will let his output in this area speak for itself. Whether or not people want to believe that the crop he has had under his control is the best we've had, regardless even if it is the same, we are still bringing through less than the previous 4 years.



Maybe and but he may not want to risk the repercussions if he has a bad game. People don't mind a bad game or poor form form a signing as it is seen as a calculated risk,and not much else he could have done, if it is from an academy player it is seen as an avoidable risk, and people will ask questions like, why we didn't sign more players to cover the risk, if it didn't come off.

At least we can all agree that Edwards is a rare talent and my bet would be the best he has had at Espanyol, Southampton and us. So no reason he shouldn't be at least getting minimal chances under Poch's tutelage. Otherwise it's a failure on Poch's part if he didn't even see if he could be good enough no?



Again it all sounds good, and I can only hope you're right. I feel though this process just makes things take longer than usual and produces less which means we are missing out on potential fees from selling players. Still this bedding in process he believes that is so important didn't stop him from bringing through 20 players in his 4 years at Espanyol, so I wonder why it is affecting us so much here.



I bet every manager believes that youth is importance. If no one used an academy player there'd be no players to watch. Every manager talks about how they would like to use the academy more or mentions youth players in press conferences and yet here we are in the PL with no changes. Again I'll guess have to keep waiting,and continue to be patient. I really hope Poch repays your faith, would love nothing more than to be wrong

I understand the concerns but have you read the book? If not I recommend it. Youth is like THE recurring theme along with being 'Brave' and you'd probably find some of the passages on youth football interesting

Its explained poch frequently goes to either McDermott's office to talk or to watch youth training if he's stressed. Also when talking about Edwards and youth players losing their way, to me, you hear can how much it pains him. I know that sounds strong but he literally talks about how the youth suicide rate is increasing and he doesn't know where we are going wrong. He comes across as almost weirdly obsessed with the academy and young people and I know you'll say talk is cheap but I don't think you can fake some of those passages.

Levy also talks about how him and poch joke how if it was left to poch we'd never sign players and Levy has to push poch to buy players sometimes (sounds crazy I know) using to example of Dier in summer 2015 when all of pochs coaching staff and levy wanted to sign a CDM but poch choose to move dier there instead. Now you can say Levy is in on the act to pretend poch cares about youth but I'm going to trust that the whole book isn't just a lie.

Maybe the only way to solve this is to wait a year though and see what happens, if KWP isn't rotating fullback with aurier, Edwards is no closer to the first team and maybe one more player close to the set up then I'll be disappointed aswell but I really think circumstances haven't fallen right so far and there are a multitude of individual reasons why players haven't broken through because as you say it's obviously tougher to bring players through here and if one tiny thing isn't right it may be counterproductive
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,873
15,942
With Wanyama and Dembele's injury problems, I hope there is one eye on Onomah coming back.

There could be a few games left this year where a Winks, Dier, Onomah midfield is a handy option to have.
 

mancman

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2006
363
688
I have just noticed that West Ham have given scholarships to 9 (nine) under 16 players for next season commencing the July 2018. Apparently new rules are in place that allow clubs to offer scholarships from the first of January (and to be accepted). This begs the question if Spurs have already done the same. My expectation is to see the following 8 being given scholarships :-

Troy Parrott
Noni Madueke
Kane Patterson
Luis Binks
Malachai Walcott
Enoch Asante
J'neil Lloyd-Bennett
Harvey White

Obviously there might be others (some from abroad or other clubs) as well as from some of the following under 16's:-

Chay Cooper
Marcus Muir
Kacper Kurylowicz
Dennis Cirkin
Reo Glean
Tarrelle Whittaker
Blake Darcy
Rafferty Pedder
Josh Gray
Joshua Setchell

Those more in the know could confirm or enlighten me as to which players are in line (or have signed) for scholarships.
 

Spurzinho

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2016
2,513
8,342
I have just noticed that West Ham have given scholarships to 9 (nine) under 16 players for next season commencing the July 2018. Apparently new rules are in place that allow clubs to offer scholarships from the first of January (and to be accepted). This begs the question if Spurs have already done the same. My expectation is to see the following 8 being given scholarships :-

Troy Parrott
Noni Madueke
Kane Patterson
Luis Binks
Malachai Walcott
Enoch Asante
J'neil Lloyd-Bennett
Harvey White

Obviously there might be others (some from abroad or other clubs) as well as from some of the following under 16's:-

Chay Cooper
Marcus Muir
Kacper Kurylowicz
Dennis Cirkin
Reo Glean

Tarrelle Whittaker
Blake Darcy
Rafferty Pedder
Josh Gray
Joshua Setchell

Those more in the know could confirm or enlighten me as to which players are in line (or have signed) for scholarships.

Those bolded are an absolute shoo-in.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
I have just noticed that West Ham have given scholarships to 9 (nine) under 16 players for next season commencing the July 2018. Apparently new rules are in place that allow clubs to offer scholarships from the first of January (and to be accepted). This begs the question if Spurs have already done the same. My expectation is to see the following 8 being given scholarships :-

Troy Parrott
Noni Madueke
Kane Patterson
Luis Binks
Malachai Walcott
Enoch Asante
J'neil Lloyd-Bennett
Harvey White

Obviously there might be others (some from abroad or other clubs) as well as from some of the following under 16's:-

Chay Cooper
Marcus Muir
Kacper Kurylowicz
Dennis Cirkin
Reo Glean
Tarrelle Whittaker
Blake Darcy
Rafferty Pedder
Josh Gray
Joshua Setchell

Those more in the know could confirm or enlighten me as to which players are in line (or have signed) for scholarships.

Was going to try and guess the intake around February, but fyi Setchell has gone to QPR and Whittaker is an u15 I also believe Muir is too.

Those bolded are an absolute shoo-in.

There are 16 here, which surely can't be done again. The first list I've seen and impo should be in our academy next year based on ability that's 11, there isn't someone there I'd be happy to release on what I've seen. Limited of course.

Kacper Kurylowicz(GK)
Kane Patterson(RB/CB)
Luis Binks(CB)
Malachi Walcott(CB)
Dennis Cirkin(LB)
Harvey White(CM)
Noni Madueke(CM)
Rafferty Pedder(AM)
J'neil Lloyd-Bennett(W)
Troy Parrott(FW)
Enoch Asante(ST)

The others I have seen very little to none but each have a reason why they could expect to be there.

Chay Cooper - recently signed attacker, would be strange to release him especially considering the limited number of AMs, though there are a few in current 1at years.

Reo Glean - another winger you may have seen more just not sure how good he is. Apparently decent, but feel an area we could improve.

Blake Darcy(CM) - only player out of these lot who has been at our club for a long time, also one day few who have played for England in this age group. Only here as 1) never seen him play 2) haven't even heard anything about him for over a year. If he's still around assume he's guaranteed to be in there.

Josh Gray - FB don't know much

Alex Monroe - Recently signed FB, assume won't release

If we're to have a normal sized age group could see both FBs being released, with Patterson and Cirkin there plus the fact most players can be moved to FB if you need cover. That would give us 14 including one keeper. For selfish reasons to keep a manageable group I'd release one of Glean or Cooper, and really try and go for Knight or Carvalho.

@Spurzinho how good are Glean and Cooper if you think they're shoo ins. Heard good about Cooper
 
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IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Gazza definitely wasn't from our academy...
In fact, he was a British record transfer.

Someone else raised that. It's obviously not clear but I meant 3 of the best 4 from last 25 were from our academy.

So King, Kane, Hoddle the 3 and Gazza being the other contender for greatest player but obviously not from academy
 

Spurzinho

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2016
2,513
8,342
Chay Cooper - recently signed attacker, would be strange to release him especially considering the limited number of AMs, though there are a few in current 1at years.

Reo Glean - another winger you may have seen more just not sure how good he is. Apparently decent, but feel an area we could improve.

Blake Darcy(CM) - only player out of these lot who has been at our club for a long time, also one day few who have played for England in this age group. Only here as 1) never seen him play 2) haven't even heard anything about him for over a year. If he's still around assume he's guaranteed to be in there.

Josh Gray - FB don't know much

Alex Monroe - Recently signed FB, assume won't release

If we're to have a normal sized age group could see both FBs being released, with Patterson and Cirkin there plus the fact most players can be moved to FB if you need cover. That would give us 14 including one keeper. For selfish reasons to keep a manageable group I'd release one of Glean or Cooper, and really try and go for Knight or Carvalho.

@Spurzinho how good are Glean and Cooper if you think they're shoo ins. Heard good about Cooper

Cooper I've heard is decent although I haven't seen him in person. It would be extremely weird, though, to have paid a fee to Southend for an U16 and not offer him a scholarship. Monroe has also only just joined so, again, I would imagine is also in the frame although we're kind of sorted at Right Back, so we'll see - he can play further forward but so can our other right backs other than Patterson. Glean I've seen nothing of but again heard he was quite decent and to be honest I bolded him by mistake. Darcy has indeed been with us for yonks but like you haven't heard much for quite a while. Gray I really don't see getting a scholarship.
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
I doubt we would. Poch isn't going to change and suddenly give Onomah a chance in the first team in CM, especially when oyu consider he hasn't really been able to play much there for Villa and we we have Wanyama returning from injury.

Can't see it myself
I’d play him against Wimbledon and take it from there. Maybe try to find him a PL club.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,957
Kane is phenomenal and it is incredible what he is achieving especially having not cost us a penny, and has now become our most valuable player ever. I have been reading the forum about whether or not he is our greatest player and I keep seeing a few other names come up in the debate, and whether it is purely coincidental or not it has pointed me back to this debate.

So some have suggested Kane is our greatest ever player, but who is the name that regularly gets brought up as a challenge to Kane in the last thirty years, Bale, Modric, VDV, Berbatov? (clearly showing my age) no. The names I keep seeing come up are Hoddle, Gascoigne and King. 3 of the 4 best players fans have seen in the last 30 years cost us, nothing. They are all from our academy. That excludes Campbell who some have also speculated has been one of the best. Is this purely coincidental. This doesn't even take into account how much better our academy is and the improvement in our player development. Outside of ability maybe there is more that comes through being an academy player. Maybe the wanting to do more for your club, maybe being settled and in comfortable surroundings, maybe being constantly surrounded by quality.

When you think about how few academy players come through compared to signings we make and as a percentage more of ended up being top quality players. And ti can't always be just because the right ones were brought through by managers. Some managers used more than others, some had agendas, some got lucky, but still the academy players have by in large been a success and or earned us a lot of money. We constantly chase World Class players from other clubs, but when they come through us, people still believe it's luck or just chance. I've read more than one time, we shouldn't expect to bring more than one player through a season which is fine, or not everyone will be good enough, but we're seeing just as many or more successes as percentage come from the academy than we are signings. I've seen a few players that have come and go that I thought were on Kane's level of ability recently, and we have a few more who we still haven't seen get chances yet.What is the worse that can go wrong. We keep chasing quality elsewhere when it is likely still under our nose. Again this isn't to say stop buying from elsewhere as there most definitely is quality out there and in our current team, but this belief that we shouldn't expect any top quality again because we have Kane is BS. Surely the logic should be look what has happened, let's try it again. With signings we keep going over and over again despite rarely finding World Class.

I know I also seem against it but I do still largely agree about signings top class young talent as I think again that helps as they get to settle at the club for quite a while get comfortable experience being around quality players early and receive top class coaching before tapping into their ability. I just don't think we need to sign those players in positions we already have quality.

For a bit of fun, I though I'd try and come up with an academy developed team who have played for in the last 30 years. I will need some help from those that have seen everyone play, but I'd be as good or close to a signed 11.

-------------------Walker------------
Carr-------Campbell-King--------Rose
Barmby---Hoddle--Bentaleb---Townsend--
--------------Kane-----Crouch

I actually don't really know how good Barmby was for us but heard he was decent. If you open up the criteria to 35 years you could include Perryman. If you also opened it up to players who were in our academy played a game or two then were let go the

---------------------Walker---------------
Perryman-Campbell-King-------Rose
----------------Hoddle-Souness--------
Barmby---------Bentaleb-----Townsend
---------------------Kane---------------------

I'm sure I'm forgetting some players but on the bench we would have
Carr, Houghton, Winks, Caulker, Smith, Mason, Crouch, Pritchard, Carroll

If you include players we signed at 18 or under we could also include Bale and Lennon. Either way that would be a really good PL team, and considering, we so rarely give academy players a chance, being able to put that team out even against the best signed 11 which will have so many more players to choose from is mightily impressive. I'm also still yet to hear of an academy player that came through and completely flopped after numerous chances.

As I said there are players we have let go that I believe would have made the above team, but fortunately there are players we still have that I believe could displace some players in the team above, so why not give them a go. There isn't a limit to how many successful players we can bring through, i we've done it once we can in all likely do it again.

Barmby was awesome for us. I was gutted when he left. In fact he was probably never as good anywhere else in his career as he was when he played for us.
 

Westmorland

Active Member
May 21, 2014
290
449
Steven Caulker leaves QPR by mutual consent. We did well to get 9m for him. Gone right off the rails since then. Remember seeing him against Leeds away in fa Cup. Ross McCormack took him to the cleaners. Obvious then that he wasn’t good enough
 

archiewasking

Waiting for silverware..........
Jul 5, 2004
7,848
11,668
Do you reckon CCV has any future with us then? Akinfenwa of Wycombe completely bossed him last season.
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,873
15,942
Steven Caulker leaves QPR by mutual consent. We did well to get 9m for him. Gone right off the rails since then. Remember seeing him against Leeds away in fa Cup. Ross McCormack took him to the cleaners. Obvious then that he wasn’t good enough

Feel really sorry for him. Clearly struggles and beats himself up mentally. Not sure why anyone would be smug about that...
 

mill

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
10,385
37,100
Do you reckon CCV has any future with us then? Akinfenwa of Wycombe completely bossed him last season.

Lol a teenager getting bullied by one of the most physically unique players around on his full debut is no reason to write of a career.

Vidic was signed in a January window by Man U go back and watch his performances that season and he was a lot older and experienced. I don’t know if Ccv will be good enough but I’m prepared to give him some time
 

kmk

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2014
4,146
27,502
Lol a teenager getting bullied by one of the most physically unique players around on his full debut is no reason to write of a career.

Vidic was signed in a January window by Man U go back and watch his performances that season and he was a lot older and experienced. I don’t know if Ccv will be good enough but I’m prepared to give him some time

Exactly, I remember a 33 year old Jurgen Klinsmann making a 19 year old Rio Ferdinand look foolish to score for us against West Ham in the 97-98 season.

Rio Ferdinand didn't have a bad career later.
 
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