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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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I get your gripe about KWP, but what other top 4 clubs would has developed 3 english youth players (ok two of them we paid for and both under 5m, but still it needs to be recognised that we took punts on these players when others didn't and we gave them first team opportunities):

Kane - A youth prospect being loaned to the likes of Millwall and due to Spurs one of the top 3 strikers in world football
Dele - We took a big leap of faith on this kid and in no way been detrimental to his development, from a youth prospect in league one to one of the most exciting young players in world football due to Spurs
Dier - Rejected by Everton, we took a punt on him and now one an England regular and a vital part to our starting 11 who has developed into one of the most versatile players in the league due to Spurs.

Who have Liverpool, Chelsea, City or United developed like this? We can't compare ourselves to other smaller clubs because you can't penalise quality just to give a youth player a chance.

Giving 3 young English players a chance to thrive is ridiculous in the current financial climate of Premier League football. This doesn't include the likes of Winks, Foyth and KWP to a smaller degree.

Currently i find it difficult to understand any negative comments around our youth development, is it perfect, of course not, but it's a solid 8/10.

I said in the Harry Winks post, if the likes of Winks or Onomah want to be a starting CM for Tottenham Hotspur football club, a club now cementing itself as one of the top 4 clubs in the country, mixing it with the best European teams. Then THEY have to prove that they are better than Dembele / Dier / Wanyama etc. They need to get to training earlier and leave later, they need to be better in training and when they get time on the pitch or time away on loan, they need to prove themselves.

That's all it comes down to now, we aren't a top 10 club anymore, we aren't a charity club for youth players to get at least 10 starts a season in their preferred position. We are a big club, if a player comes on in a position that isn't his, show the manager you want it, show you want to make. It's all about application.

The only part i agree with in a lot of the posts i have read in this topic, is the development of KWP. I would have enjoyed to see him more. But who are we to judge what his attitude is like and how hard he trains compared to Serge / Tripps, a lot of unknowns.

But we piss all over the over top 4 clubs so lets celebrate that a little please.


I have and do give Pochettino credit for improving players.

Lets ignore the word academy for a minute. Because for me, as odd as this sounds, this isn't about the academy, it's about what I perceive as just poor choices in terms of our squad.

I believe KWP has the potential to be a better RB than Aurier and I think it wouldn't take much longer than the time it will take Aurier to settle into our team and stop looking like a very erratic and unpredictable RB (if that's going to happen at all).

Poch's ability to improve players is one of his many strengths, so what I question is why, as a club, we decided it's better to tie up so much money on a player like Aurier (when we already have Trippier) and try to iron out his game, than do it with KWP for free.

We know this kid. We have coached him for ten years. We know he's of impeccable character. Won't be a pain in the arse if he's not picked every week. Know he has huge potential. Look at what he's shown in three appearances this season. A MOTM (OK Generous but still good debut away at a big ground) and a goal from LB in ten minutes pitch time.

And then we have Sissoko. Never mind Onomah or Winks, I would rather have kept Lesniak round and played him as a CM than watch Sissoko treat the fucking football like hot potato every time it goes near him.

I just cannot fathom why Poch, this great lover of youth, could not give Onomah a single minute in a pre season friendly as a CM ? Please explain that one to me. We had nothing to lose but everything to gain from him, maybe, looking decent there, the kid had just won a WC, played exceptionally well, his confidence was sky high, but Poch really pissed on it, and to add insult to it, actually played TOB there. Almost like he was trying to teach Onomah, who'd apparently been badgering him to play in CM (according to Poch himself), a lesson.

And before that it was Pritchard, who didn't get a single meaningful minute when our bench was not exactly chocked with options, and Veljkovic.

I don't mind Poch not picking or wasting time developing academy players, for any players that aren't great - IMO (and that's just how we all feel about our opinions) but I do mind him not trying to give a chance to at least develop, ones that clearly have huge potential. I'm only talking about a handful of players in his whole time here, and some of them I know wouldn't have been ultimately very top drawer (but not all our bought players turn out that way either).

So yes, lets praise everything good that Poch does, but lets also criticise the things he does badly. And it's not about academy v purchase per se, it's about managing and maximising resources, vital to a club like us, which I don't think Poch has/is always doing wonderfully.
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
I just cannot fathom why Poch, this great lover of youth, could not give Onomah a single minute in a pre season friendly as a CM ? Please explain that one to me.
Do you assume that Poch can only evaluate Josh's fitness for a CM role in pre-season friendlies?

Or, do you leave open the possibility that Poch can evaluate his (and all players) fitness for a role in training - letting players prove themselves in training first before getting a chance in any games?

I honestly do not understand this hangup over whether Josh played CM in friendlies - and how it ties to Poch's deep-seated hatred for Josh, and Poch's intent on sabotaging Josh's career in the process.
 

DCSPUR

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2005
3,918
5,415
small margins.....if Winks hadn't had 2-3 bad injuries I think he'd be starting a lot of games for us now.
would give the discussion a different complection.
think that if Trippier had had a fantastic pre-season and looked the player he was last season AND now, Poch may have gambled on KWP.
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
Do you assume that Poch can only evaluate Josh's fitness for a CM role in pre-season friendlies?

Or, do you leave open the possibility that Poch can evaluate his (and all players) fitness for a role in training - letting players prove themselves in training first before getting a chance in any games?

I honestly do not understand this hangup over whether Josh played CM in friendlies - and how it ties to Poch's deep-seated hatred for Josh, and Poch's intent on sabotaging Josh's career in the process.
One thing that is hard to understand is Poch's reluctance to play Josh at CM but happy to throw a 17 year old straight in to CM who imo at the time is underserving of such fast tracking, to the point he is a first team player before dominating/shining in youth football

There is no consistency

It reminds me of Lamieres and Dombaxe being part of the first team under AVB but unlike those two TOB is actually very talented

I do think TOB is being fast tracked because we promised him to, so that he would stay at the club as it would be far too worse to lose talents like TOB and Kirby in one window
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
One thing that is hard to understand is Poch's reluctance to play Josh at CM but happy to throw a 17 year old straight in to CM who imo at the time is underserving of such fast tracking, to the point he is a first team player before dominating/shining in youth football

There is no consistency

It reminds me of Lamieres and Dombaxe being part of the first team under AVB but unlike those two TOB is actually very talented

I do think TOB is being fast tracked because we promised him to, so that he would stay at the club as it would be far too worse to lose talents like TOB and Kirby in one window

And therein lies the problem. The issue you have is that you are happy to castigate Poch for it just because you don't agree.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
One thing that is hard to understand is Poch's reluctance to play Josh at CM but happy to throw a 17 year old straight in to CM who imo at the time is underserving of such fast tracking, to the point he is a first team player before dominating/shining in youth football

There is no consistency

It reminds me of Lamieres and Dombaxe being part of the first team under AVB but unlike those two TOB is actually very talented

I do think TOB is being fast tracked because we promised him to, so that he would stay at the club as it would be far too worse to lose talents like TOB and Kirby in one window

i think tob is back down with the u23s now, similar to what happened with edwards around this time last year.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
A lot of people in this thread seem to think that because a player of 18 shows a lot of promise that they should be given game time.

The problem with that is “a lot of promise” does not mean “will become a player worthy of a top 4 club”. The number of English players who show a lot of promise is far greater than the number of players who could play for an elite club.

Using examples of players winning youth world cups to highlight their promise is faulty. Out of the 21 players in France’s Successful U20 WC squad in 2013 only a quarter can be said to have succeeded (if we include Zouma). Of Serbia’s squad in 2015 only two can be said to be elite - Grujic at Liverpool and Malinkovic-Savic at Lazio. Being full of promise and having success at youth level is far from Mission Accomplished.

Spurs have not afaik sold or released a player who has gone on to become an elite player. Certainly not under Poch.

It’s also true that players who were close but left us to play at weaker PL clubs were given ample opportunity to show that they belong at an elite level club and not a mid to lower PL club - think Mason, Townsend, Bentaleb. Ultimately they showed a lot of promise, were given opportunities but didn’t make the grade.

A club could make a mistake with one player (it happens) and you wouldn’t call into question the strategy. But, with the benefit of hindsight, there is not a single player about whom we can have regrets.

We all love players who come through the academy but the number who develop sufficiently to be worthy of an elite club is very small. We should not forget that in our eagerness to champion our own.
 

Anuth

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2008
745
2,346
I've been thinking about Josh's case a lot recently because it's impossible that Poch doesn't know where Josh's best position is.

So hear me out.

Poch knows Josh is a natural CM and knows what Josh capable of in that position.but we don't need him at CM now.We have more than enough players in that position. However, Poch loves players who can play multiple positions and he sees something in Josh and wants to train him to be a multi-position player. So what is the best way to train players into a new position? Play him in different positions at the young age. So it's easier for him to learn.

Is that make sense?
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
A lot of people in this thread seem to think that because a player of 18 shows a lot of promise that they should be given game time.

The problem with that is “a lot of promise” does not mean “will become a player worthy of a top 4 club”. The number of English players who show a lot of promise is far greater than the number of players who could play for an elite club.

Using examples of players winning youth world cups to highlight their promise is faulty. Out of the 21 players in France’s Successful U20 WC squad in 2013 only a quarter can be said to have succeeded (if we include Zouma). Of Serbia’s squad in 2015 only two can be said to be elite - Grujic at Liverpool and Malinkovic-Savic at Lazio. Being full of promise and having success at youth level is far from Mission Accomplished.

Spurs have not afaik sold or released a player who has gone on to become an elite player. Certainly not under Poch.

It’s also true that players who were close but left us to play at weaker PL clubs were given ample opportunity to show that they belong at an elite level club and not a mid to lower PL club - think Mason, Townsend, Bentaleb. Ultimately they showed a lot of promise, were given opportunities but didn’t make the grade.

A club could make a mistake with one player (it happens) and you wouldn’t call into question the strategy. But, with the benefit of hindsight, there is not a single player about whom we can have regrets.

We all love players who come through the academy but the number who develop sufficiently to be worthy of an elite club is very small. We should not forget that in our eagerness to champion our own.


That's fine, we all understand that. But not every player Spurs sign become elite players either, so all we would like is occasionally for the most talented and highest potential academy players to be given a fairer, and logical shot at succeeding or failing than some of those.

If we were buying DeBruyne's, Mbappe's and Neymar's it would be completely different, your argument would be water tight, but we are buying Njie's, Nkoudou's, Sissoko's, Aurier's and Foyth's who are equally as problematic (in varying ways and reasons) as giving minutes to a very promising kid who we've spent 10 years teaching to play the way we want them to play, who aren't going to need to learn a language or settle into a new culture and environment etc.

And for the record, I only love players who come through the academy that are good. I don't love the ones that aren't. I wish everyone would stop caveating every post about this topic with this silly line.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
A lot of people in this thread seem to think that because a player of 18 shows a lot of promise that they should be given game time.

The problem with that is “a lot of promise” does not mean “will become a player worthy of a top 4 club”. The number of English players who show a lot of promise is far greater than the number of players who could play for an elite club.

Using examples of players winning youth world cups to highlight their promise is faulty. Out of the 21 players in France’s Successful U20 WC squad in 2013 only a quarter can be said to have succeeded (if we include Zouma). Of Serbia’s squad in 2015 only two can be said to be elite - Grujic at Liverpool and Malinkovic-Savic at Lazio. Being full of promise and having success at youth level is far from Mission Accomplished.

Spurs have not afaik sold or released a player who has gone on to become an elite player. Certainly not under Poch.

It’s also true that players who were close but left us to play at weaker PL clubs were given ample opportunity to show that they belong at an elite level club and not a mid to lower PL club - think Mason, Townsend, Bentaleb. Ultimately they showed a lot of promise, were given opportunities but didn’t make the grade.

A club could make a mistake with one player (it happens) and you wouldn’t call into question the strategy. But, with the benefit of hindsight, there is not a single player about whom we can have regrets.

We all love players who come through the academy but the number who develop sufficiently to be worthy of an elite club is very small. We should not forget that in our eagerness to champion our own.

i'm probably strengthening your point here but, grujic is elite? what about veljkovic in that case?(a player we let go by the way). bentaleb plays for the team currently sitting 2nd in the bundesliga so i'd say he's not doing too badly. you can point to the past and say we haven't let anyone of note leave(debatable) but then the past doesn't dictate the future, just like if we're to buy another winger from the french league it doesn't mean they're going to turn out the same as njie and nkoudou. that's also ignoring that the academy is churning out bigger talents than those from the era you're referring to.

@IGSpur made this point before but given the complete revamp and subsequent expense put into the academy, you would expect greater results no? if it's only performing at its previous level, or worse, then surely you would deem that it's not worth it - i don't think people actually realise how much it costs to run the academy for one year but from what I gather it's a lot more than what most think - let's put it this way, selling the odd mcgee or fredericks doesn't put much of a dent into the overall running cost.

another thing is, i've seen a couple of comments lately about how they wish we had an academy as good as ajax's but I can't help but feel they're missing the point entirely. no doubt ajax have a good academy but unlike us(and every other pl club) they give those talents the platform to maximise that talent. you think that if we were to swap all of our u16s(and below) for theirs, we would see an uptick in players coming through? it's curious to me that you can watch england dominate holland at every youth level for the past few years now, of which we contribute a decent amount of players to and of which ajax contribute a majority, and yet you just know what when these players are hitting early 20s, theirs will be fawned over in the transfer wish list threads and commanding huge fees whilst ours still aren't ready to start a game at home to rochdale. i'm sure it's just a case of poor mentality on our players' behalf though rather than possibility that their development has stagnated in those years because they've either been playing poor quality youth football or no football at all.

anyway, as i said before, i hate getting involved in these discussions as it is ruining this thread - which is a shame as for the past few years it's been one of the best on the site but nowadays we can't even seem to get through a single page without the whole poch/1st team debate taking over.
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2014
2,744
7,424
Think Bentaleb is a bad example tbh

He’s only played 9 times and manager gone public over his bad attitude.

As for wanting academy players given chances just go on the summer transfer thread with posters churning out name after name to sign.

At this point now you either have to be extraordinary in your position or great in multiple positions to breakthrough in our strong squad.

If I was any player coming through at 19/20 I’d be pushing for loans either here or abroad now to gain some proper experience.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Think Bentaleb is a bad example tbh

He’s only played 9 times and manager gone public over his bad attitude.

As for wanting academy players given chances just go on the summer transfer thread with posters churning out name after name to sign.

At this point now you either have to be extraordinary in your position or great in multiple positions to breakthrough in our strong squad.

If I was any player coming through at 19/20 I’d be pushing for loans either here or abroad now to gain some proper experience.


The manager said "he hates not playing" and then he came on on scored the winning penalty two games ago, and then started the next game and played 90.

Is Sissoko extraordinary or great in multiple positions ? Is Aurier ? There's nearly 80-90m tied up in both those deals. Just think of what we could have done with that money if we'd let Winks, Edwards, Onomah and KWP cover those two players remits between them. And would we be any worse off in a footballing sense ?
 
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coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,989
10,442
A lot of people in this thread seem to think that because a player of 18 shows a lot of promise that they should be given game time.

The problem with that is “a lot of promise” does not mean “will become a player worthy of a top 4 club”. The number of English players who show a lot of promise is far greater than the number of players who could play for an elite club.

without game time how could a player develop and fulfill his potential? we are not asking Poch to start youth every PL game, we just want them to be given 20 to 30 minutes in FA cup and league cup against teams in championship or league 1, e.g. when we are 5-1 against Rochdale

Using examples of players winning youth world cups to highlight their promise is faulty. Out of the 21 players in France’s Successful U20 WC squad in 2013 only a quarter can be said to have succeeded (if we include Zouma). Of Serbia’s squad in 2015 only two can be said to be elite - Grujic at Liverpool and Malinkovic-Savic at Lazio. Being full of promise and having success at youth level is far from Mission Accomplished.

how is it faulty? the youth world cup is the competition with highest profile in that age group. you can't ask for more. some people ask youth players to prove themselves to be good enough but there are still doubts even when they win the competition against talents from other nations.

Spurs have not afaik sold or released a player who has gone on to become an elite player. Certainly not under Poch.

but some of them could have become a good player if we managed them better. e.g. veljkovic. we can sell them for better prices if they show more with us even we consider them as not good enough for us anymore.

It’s also true that players who were close but left us to play at weaker PL clubs were given ample opportunity to show that they belong at an elite level club and not a mid to lower PL club - think Mason, Townsend, Bentaleb. Ultimately they showed a lot of promise, were given opportunities but didn’t make the grade.

i would consider these players as successful cases. they broke through, contributed, and earned some transfer fee for us.

A club could make a mistake with one player (it happens) and you wouldn’t call into question the strategy. But, with the benefit of hindsight, there is not a single player about whom we can have regrets.

We all love players who come through the academy but the number who develop sufficiently to be worthy of an elite club is very small. We should not forget that in our eagerness to champion our own.

i don't think it would be one or two players as things stand. we don't want to see an exodus of talents who rejected big contracts from those parvenus due to our mismanagement.
on the other hand, i don't think "all" of our fans love our academy players. mason and bentaleb were once scapegoats, carroll had been mocked with his "assist" to bale and winks was booed by some idiots when he made a sideway pass.
i don't think i have to elaborate the importance of academy as IG already did. to make it simple, it is the weapon for us to compete with our oily rivals by concentrating our scarce resources on transfers.
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2014
2,744
7,424
The manager said "he hates not playing" and then he came on on scored the winning penalty two games ago, and then started the net game and played 90.

Is Sissoko extraordinary or great in multiple positions ? Is Aurier ? There's nearly 80-90m tied up in both those deals. Just think of what we could have done with that money if we'd let Winks, Edwards, Onomah and KWP cover those two players remits between them. And would we be any worse off in a footballing sense ?
That’s more a question for poch but players signed will always take priority over academy/young players.

Hence why I’d at this stage go for loans instead of staying.
 
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Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
Jul 20, 2017
2,864
15,279
i'm probably strengthening your point here but, grujic is elite? what about veljkovic in that case?(a player we let go by the way). bentaleb plays for the team currently sitting 2nd in the bundesliga so i'd say he's not doing too badly. you can point to the past and say we haven't let anyone of note leave(debatable) but then the past doesn't dictate the future, just like if we're to buy another winger from the french league it doesn't mean they're going to turn out the same as njie and nkoudou. that's also ignoring that the academy is churning out bigger talents than those from the era you're referring to.

@IGSpur made this point before but given the complete revamp and subsequent expense put into the academy, you would expect greater results no? if it's only performing at its previous level, or worse, then surely you would deem that it's not worth it - i don't think people actually realise how much it costs to run the academy for one year but from what I gather it's a lot more than what most think - let's put it this way, selling the odd mcgee or fredericks doesn't put much of a dent into the overall running cost.

another thing is, i've seen a couple of comments lately about how they wish we had an academy as good as ajax's but I can't help but feel they're missing the point entirely. no doubt ajax have a good academy but unlike us(and every other pl club) they give those talents the platform to maximise that talent. you think that if we were to swap all of our u16s(and below) for theirs, we would see an uptick in players coming through? it's curious to me that you can watch england dominate holland at every youth level for the past few years now, of which we contribute a decent amount of players to and of which ajax contribute a majority, and yet you just know what when these players are hitting early 20s, theirs will be fawned over in the transfer wish list threads and commanding huge fees whilst ours still aren't ready to start a game at home to rochdale. i'm sure it's just a case of poor mentality on our players' behalf though rather than possibility that their development has stagnated in those years because they've either been playing poor quality youth football or no football at all.

anyway, as i said before, i hate getting involved in these discussions as it is ruining this thread - which is a shame as for the past few years it's been one of the best on the site but nowadays we can't even seem to get through a single page without the whole poch/1st team debate taking over.
Maybe this would be bad or pointless but would it hurt to have a dedication thread on here about 1st Team Integration so that this thread can focus more on discussing ans evaluating the youth academy that thread, perhaps barely, can split off into more of that argument. This is one of my favorite threads on here but when that argument kicks off I ignore it because I know it will be 5 pages before it gets back on topic.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
That’s more a question for poch but players signed will always take priority over academy/young players.

Hence why I’d at this stage go for loans instead of staying.

Also I don’t buy the hype for Onomah. He’s never lived up to his youth reputation.


They are questions for Poch. And they are two-fold; why is it always deemed preferable to sign players, and why, when he is supposedly this uber meritocratic coach ("Paid to train, not to play") should a signed player always take preference over one we have been coaching for years.
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2014
2,744
7,424
They are questions for Poch. And they are two-fold; why is it always deemed preferable to sign players, and why, when he is supposedly this uber meritocratic coach ("Paid to train, not to play") should a signed player always take preference over one we have been coaching for years.
Again it’s for poch but as you say if he’s coaching them for years he will know if they are ready or if they are ready for a sustained period.

Atm imo only Onomah was no better option than Sissoko both don’t look good enough for us to play.

KWP looks like he could’ve but again imo only not sure if we had a injury to Trippier could’ve become our number one. He’s done a able job as third choice for both RB & LB.

Going forward it’ll only become harder and harder the more we progress the squad with imo only Sissoko & Llorente need cutting out.

I’m not going to go on this subject anymore as @Blake Griffin said it’s becoming tedious and ruining the thread.
 

THFCSPURS19

The Speaker of the Transfer Rumours Forum
Jan 6, 2013
37,886
130,485
That's fine, we all understand that. But not every player Spurs sign become elite players either, so all we would like is occasionally for the most talented and highest potential academy players to be given a fairer, and logical shot at succeeding or failing than some of those.

If we were buying DeBruyne's, Mbappe's and Neymar's it would be completely different, your argument would be water tight, but we are buying Njie's, Nkoudou's, Sissoko's, Aurier's and Foyth's who are equally as problematic (in varying ways and reasons) as giving minutes to a very promising kid who we've spent 10 years teaching to play the way we want them to play, who aren't going to need to learn a language or settle into a new culture and environment etc.

And for the record, I only love players who come through the academy that are good. I don't love the ones that aren't. I wish everyone would stop caveating every post about this topic with this silly line.
Do you have a problem with Foyth now as well? Fucking hell.
 
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