Eric Dier

Trix · Sep 3, 2018

@Bobby__Lucky said:
Would you agree that Dembele plays the DM role better after today? I think Dembele is an incredibly skill full footballer, but the last place i would play him is as a DM. I think he can bully on the front foot, but not on the back foot. I love Moussa but he is a vanity player, has desire with the ball not so much without it. Probably to do with his upbringing in dribble ball in the cages which has been well documented. He's not really ever learned to be a team player by nature, its something he needs to think about.

Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

@Bobby__Lucky · Sep 3, 2018

Trix said:
Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

I do think Dier would of done better yes, I base this on his positional sense and defensive capabilities of which Dembele has none. I agree it was a tactical mess and it seems the idea was that Alli and Eriksen were taking turns being dembeles partner, which didn't work out well. I don't say we win the game if dier played but we would of faired better.

What do you think of when Winks came on? I know it wasn't long but he had far more idea of playing that role than dembele, who looked lost out there. I rate dembele as a footballer as stated but as a defensive player he is next to useless and nullifies his assets. Don't know if its in this thread or another but someone mentioned we have only played dembele as a single pin DCM 3 times and have lost every game.

jurgen · Sep 3, 2018

No Dier No Party

rossdapep · Sep 3, 2018

Trix said:
Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

I agree with this. It's no coincidence our performance matched the Fulham one. Ok for 50 mins or so and then became completely overran in midfield. What I find confusing is that Poch recognised it and switched it within ten mins or so, yet yesterday he waited until it was too late. Indecision and lack of action is the one thing that will hold Poch back. I understand that he wants allow players to bail themselves out sometimes and doesn't want to to be too hasty but it was pretty damn clear yesterday where the battle was being lost. You can't just wait on that, you have to adjust and the fact that he did against Fulham but not yesterday is hard to grasp.

DannyNZ · Sep 3, 2018

Trix said:
Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

Couldn’t have put it better. Tactical muddle that was hard to comprehend and when it wasn’t working paralysis on the sidelines.

spids · Sep 3, 2018

Trix said:
Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

Spot on analysis Trix. Poch should have played Dier from the outset alongside Dembele instead of one of the CBs. When we were in possession Dier could have dropped in to make a back 3 with the FBs pushing forwards (as we often did in 2016/17).

WalkerboyUK · Sep 3, 2018

Spurs fans are so fucking bipolar when it comes to Dier.
One minute it's all "he's useless, does nothing that contributes" etc. etc.
Then one game where he doesn't start and it's "why the fuck wasn't Dier picked?"

He's not a "Hollywood" player and a lot of what he does goes un-noticed. Reminds me a bit of Freund in some ways.

Spurs 1961 · Sep 3, 2018

Dier starts so many games for a reason. I suspect he did not play because he maybe needed a bit of a rest; generally though he is one of the fittest players we have and brings energy to the game. Also with three centre-backs maybe it was thought we did not need the extra cover that Dier always provides.

dagraham · Sep 3, 2018

I stand by everything I’ve said about Dier in this thread.

However, as well as critising him I and others have acknowledged his attitude and battling qualities on the pitch and that was probably one of the worst games to leave him on the bench.

It was always going to be a physical battle.

T-Love92 · Sep 3, 2018

Yesterday highlighted that Dembele is not able to protect our defense as a lone holding mf. Eriksen did not even bother to tackle anyone and Dele wasn't Dele.
We need at least one of Dier or Wanyama in these sort of games, where Doucoure and Capoue alongside Hughes caused too much trouble for Dembele on his own.

I agree with those who see Dier better suited at CB though...

SpartanSpur · Sep 3, 2018

Trix said:
Dembele today was on his own with no help whatsoever. Eriksen and Dele were next to useless as far as a defensive role was concerned. Dembele was having to cover so much ground against three very strong players and so struggled a lot.

I never base my opinions on one off games especially ones like today where I believe we were set up all wrong. If you think the far less mobile Dier would have done any better today considering the job being asked of Dembele then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I doubt even Vic in peak fitness would have been able to cope with the workload today.

Today imo was not a personnel issue, it was a tactical mess that Poch didn't change up until it was far too late. We needed two in there from the off, regardless of which two they were imo.

FWIW I don't think any of our DM's have a full enough skillset to operate that position on their own, and that's why today I would have gone with either Dier or Winks in from the start Problem with that is it meant Poch would have had to drop one of Moura, Dele or Eriksen in order to play 5 at the back, and I don't believe he is willing to drop them hence the formation fuck up.

Agree 100% on needing two, the formation and lack of action from Poch was the big problem yesterday IMHO.

Although I do think Dier would have added something Dembele didn't. He can't cover the whole pitch but he is a much better anchor than Dembele from a defensive standpoint (cutting off passing lanes, filling in gaps in the backline etc...), he is a specialist after all. Plus he is surely more effective at defending set pieces than Dembele.

bho · Sep 3, 2018

rossdapep said:
I agree with this. It's no coincidence our performance matched the Fulham one. Ok for 50 mins or so and then became completely overran in midfield. What I find confusing is that Poch recognised it and switched it within ten mins or so, yet yesterday he waited until it was too late. Indecision and lack of action is the one thing that will hold Poch back. I understand that he wants allow players to bail themselves out sometimes and doesn't want to to be too hasty but it was pretty damn clear yesterday where the battle was being lost. You can't just wait on that, you have to adjust and the fact that he did against Fulham but not yesterday is hard to grasp.

I think the reason was that in the Fulham match, Poch had the ability to bring both Dembele and Lamela off the bench in order to change the direction of the match. Once he made the decision to start with Dembele (and with Lamela injured), he ended up depriving himself of any game changing options on the bench which ultimately cost us.

Trix · Sep 3, 2018

WalkerboyUK said:
Spurs fans are so fucking bipolar when it comes to Dier.
One minute it's all "he's useless, does nothing that contributes" etc. etc.
Then one game where he doesn't start and it's "why the fuck wasn't Dier picked?"

He's not a "Hollywood" player and a lot of what he does goes un-noticed. Reminds me a bit of Freund in some ways.

Not sure if that's the case tbh, it certainly isn't for me anyway. It wasn't the case that Dier wasn't picked so we struggled, it was that nobody played in his position at all. I don't think it would have mattered at all who played in Dembele's position as they would have been over run. We needed two CM's/DM's out there and we only had one. I'd have much rather seen Vic or Winks in there than Dier, but Dier would have been a much better option than no one at all.

It has always been clear to me that neither Eriksen or Dele are capable of playing that role, especially against a physically strong midfield like Watford have, and that is why I was desperate for a specialist passing CM to have been bought in the Summer. Winks isn't overly physical but he is at least positionally disciplined to play there.

As I have said before Dier does everything he's asked to a decent standard but he doesn't excel at anything. Vic is a destroyer, Dembele has excellent ball retention, Winks a better passing range and is more of a forward thinker. None of them are the full package which is why we need two of them in there, and it's why we certainly needed two of them yesterday.

When you lose control of CM, players are forced to operate out of their comfort zones. It invites panic and inevitably you lose control of the game and make silly mistakes which is what happened yesterday.

For me it was all on Poch yesterday. Poor starting line up and a complete failure to see that and change it up. Dier should have started IMO but that was more due to Winks and Vic not being fully ready to start matches, not because he was the best person for the job(when all are fully match fit).

Cruyff · Sep 3, 2018

This all begs the question as to why Winks, Dier and Wanyama were ALL on the bench if none of them were fit to start in addition to the question of why Poch wasn't prepared to use them.

DCSPUR · Sep 3, 2018

it's funny that people talk about his competition (Dembele, Winks, Big Vic) as if their fitness is a non-factor when assessing players ability/quality etc.

Trix · Sep 3, 2018

DCSPUR said:
it's funny that people talk about his competition (Dembele, Winks, Big Vic) as if their fitness is a non-factor when assessing players ability/quality etc.

Really? From what I have read I don't see hardly anyone suggesting Vic or Winks should have started in front of him yesterday and I can only assume if they have a preference for one of them, it can only be fitness based.

cliff jones · Sep 3, 2018

the game wasn't won or lost in the mids- they by-passed it. It was decided by them scoring two set-pieces. In a game where the ball spent long periods in the air, and at those key moments in our box, Dier would have been a very useful asset.

We had no plan B beyond Tripper's crossing which their CBs ate for dinner. Alli provided the odd flash of guile but as has been said elsewhere Eriksen and Kane lost their individual battles and failed to impose themselves.

Does Poch need more help on set-pieces? We don't score from them (no, Trip's Fulham strike excepted) but we do concede. I'm not looking it up, but my gut feel is we get between 3 and 5 times the opportunities to most of our opponents' 1.

coys200 · Sep 3, 2018

Ultimately I don’t think Dier is good enough if we want to be title contenders. But he’s definitely right now the best DM we have. And that will remain the case unless wanyama regains full fitness or winks can establish himself as a ball playing DM. Dembele is just not a DM and should never play that loan role again. It was a disaster in the NLD and against Leicester last season. Astonishing poch even contemplated it again. Poch spoke about our intensity and taking things for granted. IMO he was the worst culprit of that, thinking dembele could play that loan role.

cliff jones · Sep 3, 2018

coys200 said:
Ultimately I don’t think Dier is good enough if we want to be title contenders. But he’s definitely right now the best DM we have. And that will remain the case unless wanyama regains full fitness or winks can establish himself as a ball playing DM. Dembele is just not a DM and should never play that loan role again. It was a disaster in the NLD and against Leicester last season. Astonishing poch even contemplated it again. Poch spoke about our intensity and taking things for granted. IMO he was the worst culprit of that, thinking dembele could play that loan role.

the red cross is for your second point- the first I agree with.

They created 4 chances, plus 1 other moment of danger, in 95 mins. In our usual 2, Dembele often finds himself in 121 combat and commits fouls like the one on Hughes. But we still had the whole team back to deal with the free kick. They won the winning corner from a cross from the left.

Dembele provided a platform for plenty of possession for our creative players who bottled it/passed every ball to Trips. Them not turning up and the two defensive errors were the reasons for the defeat. Anyone who focuses solely on Dembele's impact is scapegoating, and ignorant of the wider dynamics of the game involving two dozen players.

heelspurs · Sep 3, 2018

T-Love92 said:
Yesterday highlighted that Dembele is not able to protect our defense as a lone holding mf. Eriksen did not even bother to tackle anyone and Dele wasn't Dele.
We need at least one of Dier or Wanyama in these sort of games, where Doucoure and Capoue alongside Hughes caused too much trouble for Dembele on his own.

I agree with those who see Dier better suited at CB though...

This bolded sentence is not enough to make your first statement/conclusion. Surely you see the error, no? To distill it down you saud 3CMs (2 big and athletic and 1 nippy and bitey) caused too much trouble for 1CM (a 31 yo player with fitness issues that we said we would be 'managing' his minutes no less). Substitute any midfielder in world football in as that 1CM and the statement would still be true. All you are saying is 3 > 1.

Now I do agree with you 1st statement but you can't get there from the bolded statement. There more pertinent part is that I am sure Poch did not feel as if he was placing Dembele on an island and he expected more help from Eriksen and Dele. The problem lies here in that many already knew that Eriksen and Dele are not and never will be CMs. Neither has the defensive instincts, the desire/technique to receive it in tight spaces, nor the actual tackling ability to be a CM. How Poch doesn't/didn't recognize this already is beyond me. And against Watford was the last game to put those lightweights in the MF...with Dembele.

And the last point is Dele WAS Dele. This is the Dele we have seen all year but he just didn't score to paper over. And Poch can't/won't sit him so we get the experiment in the MF.

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