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Didier Zokora tonight

SpurSince57

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Jan 20, 2006
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Chimbonda and Berbatov both had more; so did Defoe, although quite a few of those were as sub.
 

walworthyid

David Ginola
Oct 25, 2004
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So it's the other players fault for him not playing well, loosely. More that Martin Jol's system fails him. Why? Because he isn't a defensive minded midfielder? I agree - he's not. But it's not because he's an attack minded one either. I ask this question in 1 out of 3 Zokora posts: WHAT IS HE??? You can't continue to blame every thing else can you? He's a professional footballer. A midfielder, who has been known to 'hold'. It's not a leap of faith to think he wouldn't be able to maybe adapt to a system - given that he is an International after all. Or is that just more experience of "French" football. [Do you watch the African Nations??] :?

Sorry Stoof, but this bit has really got up my arse! Name me a top team that plays with a flat 4 across the middle? There aren't many, nearly every top team in Europe and the epl play with a man withdrawn and a man ahead, why I hear you ask? Because it allows players to perform specific tasks in specific areas of the field and there are many players who are very strong in some aspects of their position and not in others. Thus, you have attack minded mids who get to attack, defensive minded players who get to defend and ball retainers who get to retain the ball.

All of this is not to say that players can't adapt, but what it does suggest is that players can be more effective if they play to their strengths and the team will be more effective if there are a group of players who compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses.

To my mind Zokora falls into the category of defensive mid. He does not have the finishing or passing skills to play in advances areas. He has the pace to make tackles and break up play. He has very tidy short passing skills, which all footballers should have, and when he wins the ball he can pass it effectively to those who can be more creative. He also has the Zokora 360 turn, which while predictable and none to pretty to the eye, does more often than not get him out of trouble and helps us to retain possession. He is also not scared to receive the ball and makes himself available more than Hudd or Jenas. He can carry the ball well, although he needs to learn when to release it. He is a very good player to have backing up the play because he has the pace to cover if we lose possession.

Huddlestone has none of the above with the exception of his short passing, which although hardly creative is at least accurate. To my mind, if we played a 5 across the middle we would get the best out of Zokora and Huddlestone as well as Jenas. I would allow us to play Taraabt, Prince and Steed in their natural positions and would generally suit the squad of mids that we have.

So to say that good players can adapt is a rather ambiguous statement. Yes they can, but are they as effective as they would be if they played in a system that better used their relative strengths?
 

Stoof

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Sorry Stoof, but this bit has really got up my arse! Name me a top team that plays with a flat 4 across the middle? There aren't many, nearly every top team in Europe and the epl play with a man withdrawn and a man ahead, why I hear you ask? Because it allows players to perform specific tasks in specific areas of the field and there are many players who are very strong in some aspects of their position and not in others.

EXACTLY!!!! And Zokora is neither attacking nor defensive - which is exactly the point I've been making for all these months. He doesn't have the main attribute of an attacking midfielder, to be creative, to supply final balls or to shoot.

Defensively, he lacks the basic positional sense to be able to successfully read the game. His tackling, although improving, is still not great and his ball-carrying when faced with opposition is frenetic. When he's got yards to run into with no-one in a 10 foot radius, my mind wonders to those glorious Viera runs (not that I think he's like Viera, or could be Viera, or thought he was going to be like Viera) as he eats up the ground in front of him ... only to lose the ball or end up backtracking those 10 yards by passing back to Jenas who he's overtaken.

My main gripe is Zokora wipes Jenas's attacking dimension out. Huddlestone allows Jenas to get further forward, as he's more disciplined in sitting. As for tackling, watch the Villa game again, and watch the last ditch tackles from Huddlestone - although as culpable as Zokora for giving away the ball at times, boy does he make up for it (although to his credit he's been getting better at that too).

He has the pace to make tackles and break up play. He has very tidy short passing skills, which all footballers should have, and when he wins the ball he can pass it effectively to those who can be more creative.

True, he does have the pace to make tackles and break up play. He does have that pace, it's just that when he gets there he doesn't always remember the tackling bit. Take away the apparent jibe, and you have to agree that it's not great (his tackling).

His short Chimbonda-to-passing is better - I grant him that. But not before time and I still get that feeling in my gut when he has the ball for more than a couple of seconds.

He also has the Zokora 360 turn, which while predictable and none to pretty to the eye, does more often than not get him out of trouble and helps us to retain possession.

The Zokora turn is becoming my new favourite 'cult' move. It's successfully displaced the Steffen Freund Medium Throw.

He is also not scared to receive the ball and makes himself available more than Hudd or Jenas.

I'd say that was a big criticism of mine last season, he was reticent to show for it. And he's started doing that in the last 2 games finally but it's a very new thing still.

Huddlestone has none of the above with the exception of his short passing, which although hardly creative is at least accurate. To my mind, if we played a 5 across the middle we would get the best out of Zokora and Huddlestone as well as Jenas.

It's been called for by a lot of supporters, although I still don't see Jol trying it nor do I think he will - that's not to say it's not a good idea - but I think where we have that collection of goal-getting, pure athletic pace and sublime passing in 3 players, other teams have it in two. :-(
 

Bus-Conductor

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Most of the things you say Stoof are wrong, it's not that he wasn't doing them, it's that you had decided to not see anything good he did. Why do you think it was that some us (and mostly not the lemmings) were defending him last year. We could actually see that despite his name not being Dawson, he actually did play well most of the time and offered something to a team that had three good cup runs and a 5th finish despite their manager only having one formation, no clue away from home and only 2 pages to his tactics book.

I honestly can't remember a single thread that started with Zokora is the new messiah, so what exactly was this over reaction you felt the need to have ?
 

Stoof

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Most of the things you say Stoof are wrong.

If that makes you sleep easier at night, then yes, most of the things I say are wrong. Have you got a stat for that?

Why do you think it was that some us (and mostly not the lemmings) were defending him last year.

Because if everyone had the same opinion, t'would be Utopia. As it is, it's not, and if people wish to put forward that our central midfield of 05/06 was better than 06/07 then I will. Didier Zokora was a step back. Can you honestly say that's not so?

We could actually see that despite his name not being Dawson, he actually did play well most of the time and offered something to a team that had three good cup runs and a 5th finish despite their manager only having one formation, no clue away from home and only 2 pages to his tactics book.

So you're willing to big up Zokora, but give no credit to the defensive rock at the back and the manager that instigated it all?

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I honestly can't remember a single thread that started with Zokora is the new messiah, so what exactly was this over reaction you felt the need to have ?

You seem to have this wonderful impression that if a thread title isn't exactly describing the exact contents of every single post in that thread then people that says these things don't exist?

Search through the threads. People have come out and said he was excellent. I'm not making this up. He's been excellent for 45 minutes in 50 games. At best. He can be very good. He's more often than not mediocre to OK to 'meh'. He hovers around the 4-7 out of 10 - rather than the 6-9s the rest of the team do. Yes that's my opinion. Yes it disagrees with yours. It doesn't mean either of us are wrong, as you appear to make out.

But when you want to use the World of SC :)lol:) to back up your point, feel free to. But when of course it doesn't, you can ignore it just so it doesn't count. :up:
 

Bus-Conductor

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Stoof

I have checked the Telegraph and it says that when it comes to running a transfer news forum you are 75% effective. When it comes to talking about football 95% of it is bollocks.

The funny thing is, I think the most common pattern of these threads is nearly always Joey saying how shit Zokora is and then umpteen lemmings wading in with the same inane cack that the Lee is shit threads used to get followed by a couple of us saying "hold on, he's actually OK and even pretty good quite alot of the time".

Saying Zokora was excellent today is still not saying he is the new Maradona is it. Saying as you have said "he's shit at passing, he falls over every time he runs, he can't control a ball" is far fucking wider of the mark isn't it ? In fact when it comes to footballing matters saying things like "Dawson is our rock" shows what a poo grasp of football you actually have. (Unless you meant it literally of course)
 

Stoof

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"he falls over every time he runs" - but he pretty much does!! OK, being less dramatic, he does still do this, and rolls around like he's been shot. Not in my Tottenham he doesn't.

"he can't control a ball" - his first touch is worst than my mate's at Power League on Sunday. Sometimes.

You seem to have taken my 'calming' adjectives out and replaced them with hardline phrases as these above. It's good to be misquoted.

You also seem to think when I've made a comment after a match, it automatically applies to every match past and present. He had matches where he couldn't control a ball, make a decent forward pass, or a purposive run last year. He definitely did - but you've applied it to all matches. Something I never did. In fact I was mostly selective of my criticisms, as and when he played badly.

In fact when it comes to footballing matters saying things like "Dawson is our rock" shows what a poo grasp of football you actually have. (Unless you meant it literally of course)
Right. So because I think a good young English defender has done amazingly well, seeing as how he was our first choice centre back all of last season playing every game through thick and thin, playing his heart out for the shirt he wears, you think I have no knowledge or understanding of this game?

Well surely then you can say the same of Jol, Venables, Eriksson and McClaren (I'll give you McClaren, but that's all :lol:). And I know who's opinion I would listen to.

And it's not yours, Grandad.
 

Has1978

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Jul 15, 2005
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Think you´re both right (B-C and Stoof). Dawson has been perhaps our most overrated player (for me, more than Tainio, Ziegler, Chimbonda, Robbo). People have expressed surprise as to how shaky he has been looking recently.

Well last season he made a big error per game, more often than not resulting in a goal conceded. Yes he played in every game and took some big knocks and kudos for that. But I was never convinced that he was our "player of the season" or anywhere near. This season he has been pretty much as bad/good as last. He´s likeable and tries hard. I like him but am uncertain he will ever make it as a good defender. I´m uncertain he´ll be any better than Calum Davenport in fact. Of course I hope I´m wrong and he probably will improve somewhat but he has a long long way to go.

As for Zokora, the stats make interesting reading sure. He has improved his tackling recently. But, he certainly isn´t an attacking midfielder (1 assist and 0 goals are worse than Robbo´s stats). As a defensive midielder, he doesn´t read the game well at all. He (until very recently) has rarely if ever dominated a midfield.

I think the Liverpool performance was the first good one he put in against a good side. Ok maybe you could argue Chelsea at home last season at a push.

He seems to panic when he has the ball. And until recently, he rarely went looking for it or made himself available. That is such a crucial quality - and he has lacked it (until recently)

Whether or not he is a Carrick replacement plays in the same position but has none of his attributes - slick passing, bravery (to go looking for the ball and taking responsiblilty), positional play. He also is a small lad that is not the asset Carrick was for defending set pieces. Does anyone bother to do his job of heading away corners at the near post?

We have seen the gaping hole between the midfield and defence many a time over the last season, and this. But we´ve also seen a gaping hole between the forwards and the midfield which is puzzling (as other posters have pointed out, the forwards tend to create chances for each other). So goodness knows what our midfield has been doing all this time (this isn´t purely a criticism of Zokoka).

The stats may support him, but, useful though they are they don´t tell the whole story. If we see more of Zokora v Liverpool (and hopefully an improvement on that) then fine. It´s the Everton-type performances that make us shudder.

B-C I´m not slating you, I do actually agree with a lot of your views. You were one of a few who stuck up for Lee from the start (I remember as there weren´t many of us). And you rightly doubted the hero-worship of Dawson and Robbo (long time ago now). But on Zokora, much as I hope to be telling you at the end of the season that you were right, I fear I won´t be.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Think you´re both right (B-C and Stoof). Dawson has been perhaps our most overrated player (for me, more than Tainio, Ziegler, Chimbonda, Robbo). People have expressed surprise as to how shaky he has been looking recently.

Well last season he made a big error per game, more often than not resulting in a goal conceded. Yes he played in every game and took some big knocks and kudos for that. But I was never convinced that he was our "player of the season" or anywhere near. This season he has been pretty much as bad/good as last. He´s likeable and tries hard. I like him but am uncertain he will ever make it as a good defender. I´m uncertain he´ll be any better than Calum Davenport in fact. Of course I hope I´m wrong and he probably will improve somewhat but he has a long long way to go.

As for Zokora, the stats make interesting reading sure. He has improved his tackling recently. But, he certainly isn´t an attacking midfielder (1 assist and 0 goals are worse than Robbo´s stats). As a defensive midielder, he doesn´t read the game well at all. He (until very recently) has rarely if ever dominated a midfield.

I think the Liverpool performance was the first good one he put in against a good side. Ok maybe you could argue Chelsea at home last season at a push.

He seems to panic when he has the ball. And until recently, he rarely went looking for it or made himself available. That is such a crucial quality - and he has lacked it (until recently)

Whether or not he is a Carrick replacement plays in the same position but has none of his attributes - slick passing, bravery (to go looking for the ball and taking responsiblilty), positional play. He also is a small lad that is not the asset Carrick was for defending set pieces. Does anyone bother to do his job of heading away corners at the near post?

We have seen the gaping hole between the midfield and defence many a time over the last season, and this. But we´ve also seen a gaping hole between the forwards and the midfield which is puzzling (as other posters have pointed out, the forwards tend to create chances for each other). So goodness knows what our midfield has been doing all this time (this isn´t purely a criticism of Zokoka).

The stats may support him, but, useful though they are they don´t tell the whole story. If we see more of Zokora v Liverpool (and hopefully an improvement on that) then fine. It´s the Everton-type performances that make us shudder.

B-C I´m not slating you, I do actually agree with a lot of your views. You were one of a few who stuck up for Lee from the start (I remember as there weren´t many of us). And you rightly doubted the hero-worship of Dawson and Robbo (long time ago now). But on Zokora, much as I hope to be telling you at the end of the season that you were right, I fear I won´t be.


I disagree with some of what you say. I threw in a few attacking mids just to show how well his passing stats hold up (as some of the best midfielders in the prem are of a more attacking vaiety). The biggest thing I disagree about is that he panics on the ball. He is actually one of the best players we have had in recent seasons at dropping a shoulder and swerving away from a pressing player. Panicky players don't do this. Also the pass per minute and pass completion stats also don't bare out that he panics. The fact that he has the best completion rate (90%) in the comparison (with just about the best the prem has to offer) also contradicts the panicking on the ball theory. I also started noticing a while ago that at times only he and Jenas actually show up for a ball when team mates are under pressure and pointed this out at the end of last season.

his biggest problem is perhaps that he isn't brilliant at anything. But personally I think he is - mostly - bloody consistantly good at most things. As the stats seem to show. If Jol had the brains to alter our tactics and formation we might just start getting the best out all our midfield.

As I said after Villa - people keep looking at water pissing out of our bucket and saying things like "it must be because the waters too thin". When the real problem is we have a fucking great hole in bucket (or as stoof calls them "heroes") that Jol ignores in the hope that it will fix itself.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I just want to add that if you remember Carrick could go very quite when put under pressure and so does Huddlestone. Carrick had a poor game against us this year and he is often substituted. I liked Carrick alot but what I liked about him most was that he always tried to be available and he did simple things well most of the time. Which is what I like about Zokora. He actually didn't make that many great through balls. Our memory of him kind of embelished the reality abit I think. The truth is we played better football last year without him than we did the previous season (not as a result of him going necessarily) and it wasn't all because of Berbatov. And this season we are playing better football again. I honestly don't think we have missed Carrick as much as some peolple think.

If Jol would play two proper wide men, perhaps in a 5 midfield, we could create more from wide, with players like Jenas, KPB, Huddlestone, Taarabt supporting the striker from midfield. Instead we play one wide man a CM on one wing and two lazy strikers. We effectively have one true creative line of attack. The rest is down to individual moments or -as we saw on Sun - a long punt. Thisdespite the midfielders insuring we have 52% possession at anfield.
 

double0

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Stoof your clueless sometimes. You still think Robinson's a good goal keeper? (I won't be surprised if your the first to start that chant...'Englands Number one bull')

Zokora's a very good player and tbh I'm quite surprised Jol hasn't pitched

Jenas...Huddlestone....Zokora together in the same team.
 

talkshowhost86

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Stoof your clueless sometimes. You still think Robinson's a good goal keeper? (I won't be surprised if your the first to start that chant...'Englands Number one bull')

Zokora's a very good player and tbh I'm quite surprised Jol hasn't pitched

Jenas...Huddlestone....Zokora together in the same team.

I've thought that before. I think it would work but obviously makes a mockery of the fact that we have four very good strikers.

The problem is that to get the best out of our midfield we would need to play all three. We need midfielders who are good enough to play in a 4-4-2. I still don't think Zokora or Huddlestone come into that category.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I have been banging on about 451 for bloody ages. Most of last season especially. We have to ignore the strikers - they are actually part of our defensive problem - certainly away from home we should go 451. We have the perfect playrs to work it and it would get the best out of our midfield. It would offer more protection for our shaky defenders and actually give us more creative outlets than 442 does sometimes (certainly the way Jol plays it). And you can always revert to 442 during the game.
At home you can get away with 442 more often perhaps.
 

talkshowhost86

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I have been banging on about 451 for bloody ages. Most of last season especially. We have to ignore the strikers - they are actually part of our defensive problem - certainly away from home we should go 451. We have the perfect playrs to work it and it would get the best out of our midfield. It would offer more protection for our shaky defenders and actually give us more creative outlets than 442 does sometimes (certainly the way Jol plays it). And you can always revert to 442 during the game.
At home you can get away with 442 more often perhaps.

Somewhat unbelievably I agree with you on that. The only problem with the 4-5-1 idea is the lack of an attacking left sided player which is crucial to play that formation. However it looks as if Bale could actually fill that role and then you could play either Bent or Berbatov up front on their own.

Sadly it will never happen due to our striker situation and Jol's tactical inflexibility.
 

Stoof

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Stoof your clueless sometimes. You still think Robinson's a good goal keeper? (I won't be surprised if your the first to start that chant...'Englands Number one bull')

Zokora's a very good player..

:rofl:

Yeah, how dare I support our goalkeeper when he needs it most. What a terrible fan I am.

Get a grip double0, he doesn't suddenly become a shit keeper because he makes a couple of mistakes?

And yet a-fucking-gain you've turned this thread into Robinson.

Does it say Paul Robinson in the title? No it fucking doesn't. So just go away with your Robinson stuff. No-one wants to read your attempt at expressing your blinkered view here.

If you look at how I've posted about Zokora, I have actually said he's improved. That doesn't mean he's a good player - it just means he's not as below average as he hit last time around.

Whereas you, who have probably never played in goal, seem to have a limited grasp on ball physics and general gravity, and reality also. Learn to concede a few points if you're wrong. I was wrong to be so harsh on Didi, but at least I can say that.

But anyway, I think the general point was, unless you're here to talk about Zokora, do one. In the nicest possible way of course.
 

sloth

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Mar 7, 2005
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If you look at how I've posted about Zokora, I have actually said he's improved. That doesn't mean he's a good player - it just means he's not as below average as he hit last time around.
But two games ago he was according you "a pile of wank". If you're to be believed he's changed from being possibly the worst player in the Prem, a midfield equivalent of Marlon Harewood, to actually quite good. It's ridiculous Stoof. DZ is a good player with much to improve on and more to learn.

I was wrong to be so harsh on Didi, but at least I can say that.
Gotcha, logged and filed:razz:
 

Stoof

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But two games ago he was according you "a pile of wank". If you're to be believed he's changed from being possibly the worst player in the Prem, a midfield equivalent of Marlon Harewood, to actually quite good. It's ridiculous Stoof. DZ is a good player with much to improve on and more to learn.

Gotcha, logged and filed:razz:

Harewood scored a great hattrick for West Ham against Villa - in which he had a great game.

He was great in that game, however, is a pile of wank in pretty much all others.

Some of the performances Didi has put in for us have been a pile of wank. Some have been good. Most would probably average to just about OK - maybe.

That's me being kind. I've already admitted to being overly harsh in countering people wildly (like double0 saying he's a "very good player") just so they can see actually, well, no he's not a "very good" player. He's an average to good player, who has his moments, but also a lot of moments that I would rather he didn't.

We can't still be going round in circles about this surely?

And for the sake of clearing things up my main source of disquiet:

Zokora --- Jenas < Carrick --- Jenas.
 
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