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  • Ekotto has generally been on an upward curb of improving performances, throughout the season. I don't consider his last two games as considerably superior. Even during the period you were most critical, he was still contributing significantly, in other areas - notably, interceptions which stem from his penance for standing off/waiting for an opponents mistake.

    Maybe with respect to our players and supporters, it's about cutting some slack and offering the benefit of the doubt.

    You see blasé generalisation, I see stand-out moments, manifesting themselves into the mark of a footballer. It's more or less the same thing but I s'pose any future negative rep, along these lines, should be decided similarly to numerous infringements receiving a yellow card.

    With regards to public debate, I just think it often surmounts to attention seeking, attempting to gain recognition by defeating somebody in a petty, online argument. They can also trail off topic, quite easily. I'm quite an advocate of more direct discussion, especially when the topic is this personal.

    On the whole, it's humbling to know we share a dislike for the overt abuse of our own players. Thankfully, at games, I've found behaviour to the contrary often prompts the aforementioned to quell their lamentable conduct, at least where I sit.
    Yeah public bashing of players does piss me off too. So I agree it creates a bad vibe. Thats why i think mentioning it in a forum, where people would maybe back you up would be better. It gives them the chance to try and defend themselves and if they can't well, then they're just fans who don't understand football.

    Just remember though that if someone says a player is crap, he might not be bashing that player or actually mean it in the literal sense. i said Ekotto is crap because of his constant mistakes and that is fair. But if he plays well, I'd give him his dues.

    Í don't think everytime someone says he's shite it deserves neg rep, but if he goes on to say, how does that wanker wear our shirt or what ever then he deserves an equal bashing from the fans. How do fans like that support our club!

    Anyway, you maybe pleased to know I think Ekottos last two performances have been alot better and I've given him credit in the match rathings thread.

    I hope it continues...
    It's the frequency, Fervency. :-) Take Ginol@14's approach to Jenas (who is tenfold more insulting than your BAE stance).

    In general, I'd say neg repping (which is private and therefore doesn't spread any mentality) does less for a negative vibe than public bashing of players, latching onto and searching for any misdemeanor. To be fair, I doubt we'd have had this judicious discussion without my original virtual infraction.

    I think it's related to balance and recognising or appreciating the full extent of what a player brings to the team. Purely focussing on or seeking any negative aspects (bereft of empathy) does contribute to clouding assessment.

    Admittedly, maybe singling you out, in this manner was unfair, in light of your reasoned responses.
    You stupid jumped up idiot! (just messing) What i'm saying is what may appear to be disparagment isn't neccesarily actually that. When I say Ekotto is shite, I'm refering to what I think based on my overall assessment and then I'll label him. If someone says what do you think of Ekotto, what else am I gonna say? I'm gonna say I think he's shite.

    If i think a player is awesome, like king or woody, it doesn't mean I think he'll never have a bad game nor will I cream over his every performance.

    The thing is with fans, some will single out players, and form a witch hunt agains that player. Some will cream over a payer who has done little so far. People are different, some get excited easily, some can't actually see what aplayer is doing and isn't. Some love football but don't understad how to actually play it properly.

    And some fans will form a hatred for a player and form a witch hunt against them. What can you do about it though, it comes down to the way they see things and their outlook on life. Neg repping in my eyes does nothing to solve this problem but instead creates a negative vibe in the Spurs Community.

    I'd prefer it if you just left them a comment in the thread about it, maybe open it up to everyone because I do agree its stupid to just abuse players regardless.

    And although it may appear that alot of fans do that, sometimes you get it wrong. I said Ekotto was shite, because I really believed he was. Based on everygame, making the same stupid mistakes. Its not a preconception its not disparagement, I believed he was shite because he didnt learn. (Don't take it litteraly like I said earlier, when someone say, "for christs sake" they dont actually mean its for his sake)
    Pipe down, you numpty! :-)

    What I'm saying is, I don't appreciate judging players (more-so, our own) with an underlying disparaging tone.

    If there is a general lack of analysis, in favour of (recurrent) degrading remarks, then this (frequency) can often lend itself to something approaching a witch hunt. This disposition can detract from fair assessment of a player's true worth.
    I base my critism of a player on what I've seen of them. Ekotto made the same mistake every game I saw him, so of course I labled him as shite. However, in his last two games I've seen improvement and have praised him for it.

    Now, I'm not going to start singing his praises after two games hailing him as great or good, that would be short sighted. It's taken alot of bad games or mistakes for me to build my opinion of him. And it'll take a few more good games for me to change my mind about him. But he is at least getting there, hopefully.

    Labeling the aforementioned qualities (good or bad) as, "complete shite" yes its an extreme, but it's how we lable people, everybody does it.

    When Ekotto comes up in conversation and someone asks, "What do you think of Ekotto?" I'm not gonna say, "Well, to be honest, I've seen him make serveral mistakes in each game I've seen him, and while this doesn't make his complete shit, I don't think he's really good enough for spurs."

    We generalise as humans, it's easier, nobody takes it as literal. When I say, "Ekotto is shite" It's a generalisation for I see him make mistakes consistently and I don't think he's a very good footballer. Yes it's extreme but it's not taken as literal, and most people don't mean it or take as being literaly shite. Literaly shite would be some of the players I've watched in sunday league football, thats actually shite. So to take me or anybody saying a player is shite literally is absurd.

    Basically what you're saying is that 'we can't say we don't like a player, because thats not really true, I mean, i've never met the guy. What I'm really saying is, I don't like him as a footballer.

    Anyway, I don't totally agree with what you're saying, I can see what you're saying but don't think it's necessary to neg rep people for saying they think a player is shite.

    If they go about saying the'll boo them or what ever, fair enough.

    Even though I don't agree with you and your neg repping, at least you haven't just come back with, "Well you're a complete pick then" You have at least tried to put your point across in a respectable manner.
    But it's not an extreme conflicting stance, which could be, "he is absolutely out of this world".

    Fundamentally, I'll defend our own players against undue critique, especially where there is an underlying disparaging tone (more often built from stand-out moments (good or bad) manifesting themselves into the mark of a footballer).

    To label those aforementioned qualities as, "complete shite", is an extreme, akin to undue critique.
    The opposite is also true for you though, your preconception of him playing well could be clouding your judgement of him having a bad game. Because you think he is a good player and you'll defend him no mater what based on the good performances you've seen of him.
    Not when the one with potential has shown little, at the time, to indicate he would not be any improvement.

    If you harbor certain (pre)conceptions ("consistently making mistakes") then it's likely that this can possibly mar a fair assessment. If he was as bad as you imply, no manager would let him anywhere near the first team.

    Maybe, when any possible misdemeanors were to have outweighed any positives, could "getting-rid" prove fruitful. BAE certainly wasn't part of this ilk and this is what led me to conclude your damning assessment was unjust, in light of the positives he brought to the team (at the time).

    You are certainly not representative of the usual insulting norm but likewise; surely you can appreciate, that summarising certain qualities as 'complete shite', is comparative to the behaviour of those who tend to negatively single out individuals.
    I kinda see what you're trying to say, because I agree some people have it in for players and regardless of performance mark them down (still doesn't warrant neg rep though). However, my opinion of Ekotto isn't based on one performance, every time I've seen him, he has made the same mistakes, and if you check the Match Rating thread for Chelsea, you'll see my opinion of Ekotto for that game and the one before is good, it's based on what I've seen in that game. So your argument doesn't really hold any ground here.

    On the Bale comment, it makes complete sense that if you have two full backs, neither playing well but one having potential and the other playing reguarly and consistently making mistakes, it makes sense to go for the one with potential.
    Brandishing the phrase, "... but it's my opinion," does not warrant a statement.

    It is when criticism is singled out, searching for misdemeanors exclusive to a player in an attempt to back-up previous.

    Brandishing BAE's marking/positioning as 'complete shite' is disparaging. Once you've decided that, it can often mar or dictate a true evaluation when you've set your mark in such definitive, insulting manner. It works both ways, with excuses being made for those in the good books - hence why you considered Bale an improved choice - because your preconception is, he will turn into a quality player.
    It was probably when I was slatting Ekotto... Regarding preconceptions dictating my evaluation: I've watched him (or whom ever) and seen him doing stuff I think is crap, so no preconceptions there. Regarding unwarranted disparagement: If my opinion is that he gives his man to much space and therefore I think he's crap, that's my opinion. You can disagree but you can hardly call it unwarranted dispragement. That's what an opinion is, it's someones view of something, which can be different from your own. If this conversation was in a thread, you could be neg repped for Unwarranted dispragement towards me.

    It seems prety clear that you've not understood the simple definition of 'opinion' try looking it up when you're looking for your next big word to use
    "Michael Jackson was always more suited to La Liga than the Prem IMO."

    Unlike yourself, I'm not using 'opinion' as a get-out for backing up relatively insubstantial claims.

    I can't entirely recall what I neg repped you for but suspect it likely to be related to either preconceptions dictating your evaluation or unwarranted disparagement of one of our own. Either one warrants negative rep - take your pick.
    These boards are here so we can dicuss our feelings and voice our opinions. If I think someone was crap I'll say so, doesn't mean I wouldn't support them though. By all means question it, thats your opinion. Leaving neg rep because someone disagrees with your views, whos the arrogant one?
    I'm aware that it's not a divine right to make disparaging remarks about the very people who require our support.

    Opinion is open to question so I question it.

    In the words of G.Ramsay: "Are you that fucking arrogant?!"
    Oh you poor dear.

    What did I say, something related to treating our own players with unwarranted disdain?
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