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Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

Shea

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2013
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By this reasoning it's a shock that Juve are in the CL finals. I mean, Serie A is very weak at the moment and has been for a while.

Think of all the managers who've managed amazing squads but never won anything. Yes Zenit are stronger & expected to win, so achieving that is a job well done. If you look at his time at Chelsea, it was player power that undermined him. JT, Lampard, Drogba etc... It is so obvious as they suddenly started winning with the same squad when Di Matteo took over. He didn't even change the fucking tactics. Chelsea players just played better cos the man they liked was in charge. Had AvB had free reign I think a lot of those old guard would've been sold and Oscar etc been bought earlier.
No - I'm not shocked Juve reached the final

Juve have dominated their league but I wouldn't call Seria A a weak league - there are numerous teams that are pretty strong in it, In fact it's catching us up and could potentially over take our coefficent and fourth CL spot

Zenit are expected to win so achieving it is doing what he's supposed to do, but nothing he didn't already do at Porto and nothing that suggests he's suddenly become capable of succeeding at a bigger club, like Chelsea for example

In fact as the former Zenit player mentioned with a team as strong as he had compared to his opponents he should have wrapped the league up sooner and he should have performed better in Europe, failed to get out of the CL group stages and was dumped form the Europa. Job done reasonably well rather than job well done I'd suggest

You can call it player power and make excuses for his time at Chelsea if you want, fact is he got his tactics wrong and wasn't capable and got exposed as a fraud way out of his depth. Even if the player thing is real, if he were capable of managing at a top club he would have been capable of dealing with the player power - the fact that he couldn't only further supports the notion that he's incapable

As I said he's done at Porto and now Zenit what he should do - that shouldn't be dismissed as it is still an achievement but it should be put in to context and it is not on the same level as having to manage top teams in high pressure positions against top level opposition in my opinion. So far his time at Chelsea and then with us proved that he was incapable of doing so, but his time at Zenit and Porto has proved he's capable of producing what he should produced when he has the strongest team in a league with the best players

He's still young and could well go on to be a good manager, who knows, but for now the evidence suggests he is not and in my opinion winning the league with Zenit does nothing to change that (the whole point of this discussion thread) and the fact that he previously had success at Porto does nothing to prove he is capable either (the whole point of the debate between you and I) as he already did that before proving himself incapable in with Chelsea and in the EPL
 

SpursTHFC

Shonan by the sea
Feb 4, 2015
6
3
Of course I was happy when he joined and was looking forward to him taking our club higher than it had been before but, I was (one of the few?) who was very sore to see Harry Redknapp leave the club.

We went from an exciting brand of Spurs football to what can only be described as pulling grass out of a field, blade by blade. For the first time in over thirty years of watching my team, I actually didn't want to warch them play.

Even under George - boring woolwich - Graham we didn't play as dull and uninspiring at when Villas-Boas wasin charge.

When he was appointed, I backed him, praised him, but after a very short time, it was evident that things were goingto be rough.

Someone asked me why I wasn't happy with him and that after all, he had secured our highest poonts tally to date. My reply was, of course, I don't support Tottenham for the trophies, it was the style that originally got me on side.
 

michaelden

Knight of the Fat Fanny
Aug 13, 2004
26,386
21,685
Porto and Juventus are in completely different stratospheres when it comes to European pedigree and prestige to be fair, Juve are far bigger and despite them falling off for a couple of years they remain amongst the top tier of European football/

but not by the standards Shea is stating. Why this duplicity?
 

Shea

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2013
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10,930
but not by the standards Shea is stating. Why this duplicity?
They are different by my standards too

Juve are from a top four league, with numerous decent teams and they come with the level of expectations that top teams carry

I don't find it remotely surprising that they're in the final and I wouldn't be shocked if they won it - They're Juventus a TOP team, Porto are Porto a second tier team

When Porto won it it was a major shock, if they were to get to the final again it would be a major shock. Juve getting there is not a shock at all, they might not have been peoples picks but they'd have been in the conversation about potential winners (unlike Porto)

They're a team that buy big players, appoint big managers and expect big success. Managing them comes with all the demands and pressures of managing a top level European club.. Porto buy players from South America and promote from within and the top ones look to use them as a stepping stone to bigger things, same goes for their managers - Juve on the other hand are the bigger thing that such players and managers potentially aspire to play for

You and I just obviously disagree on this matter, I've never considered Porto to be an elite level European club. It never even crossed my mind to consider them one before you mentioned it to be honest. They're a good Portuguese club and a successful one but I've never considered them to be above second tier in the European landscape

Regardless of what you think of Porto however - in terms of the managerial situation, AVB managing them does not equate to being able to handle the pressures of having to manage a top club in top leagues against top opposition because he only managed Porto when they were head and shoulders above their domestic rivals and in the Europa cup rather than the CL. So it doesn't serve to discredit the belief that he's incapable of managing a top club, his tenure at Chelsea does however support that

At Zenit he's simply repeated the trick from Porto - won the league with a team that was head and shoulders above their domestic rivals and he's performed less well in Europe than he did then as he flopped in the CL and failed to make an impression on the Europa

Like I've said many times, I'm not discrediting his achievements, they're still relatively impressive - I am just putting them in to context. Winning leagues with teams that should win the league is still a different task from having to guide a team with strong competition to success when the pressure is amplified greatly and demands are different
 

Jules_PF

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2014
252
450
Could you not make the same point with Mourinho? Only ever manages at the top teams in their respective leagues.

Porto
Chelsea
Inter Milan
Real Madrid

So winning the league is a bit of a gimme?
 

Tom Pops

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2014
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Could you not make the same point with Mourinho? Only ever manages at the top teams in their respective leagues.

Porto
Chelsea
Inter Milan
Real Madrid

So winning the league is a bit of a gimme?
None of those teams are as dominant in their respective leagues as Zenit are in the Russian league. Also compare AVBs European record with mourinhos
 

Tom Pops

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2014
2,293
3,094
Could you not make the same point with Mourinho? Only ever manages at the top teams in their respective leagues.

Porto
Chelsea
Inter Milan
Real Madrid

So winning the league is a bit of a gimme?
None of those teams are as dominant in their respective leagues as Zenit are in the Russian league. Also compare AVBs European record with mourinhos
 

Shea

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2013
7,711
10,930
Could you not make the same point with Mourinho? Only ever manages at the top teams in their respective leagues.

Porto
Chelsea
Inter Milan
Real Madrid

So winning the league is a bit of a gimme?

Is this a serious suggestion? or are you trying to play Devils advocate?

With Porto he won the Champions League with a far inferior team compared to much of his competition

At Chelsea he faced strong competition from Man U and to a lesser extent Arsenal but later Man City - so while they were the richest and possibly even the best team they were by no means head and shoulders better than a team like Man U (note at one point Man U competed with him and Chelsea in the CL final no less so they were arguably the two best teams in Europe then) also had a Liverpool side to contend with that both won the CL and reached the final during his time with Chelsea so I'd suggest it's fair to say competition was significantly higher than what AVB has had at Porto and Zenit respectively

At Inter, again he won the CL with them while facing superior teams and domestically they had the likes of AC Milan, Juve and NApoli whoever to contend with

With Madrid he had to compete against the very best team in the world in recent years in Barcelona so I really don't think his Madrid team can be considered to have been head and shoulders above the competition in the way Porto were the year AVB competed for the league and in the Europa cup

So no - I really don't think the same can be said for Jose as AVB
 

IanC

Member
Aug 7, 2011
74
135
I am happy for the guy. I liked him. People can say he is boring with his tactics and whatever but what matters most is what he has won on his CV for him. I do not get all this obsession about former managers if they go on somewhere else and win trophies even if it is in a lower league and then bitch about him.

I remember when Alex Ferguson struggled at United and fans were saying he could not manage at the higher level. That went well with a little time to get his tactics in place.

Even Christian Gross did well back in his own country and then went on to get some good results with his teams in European competitions. If anything they should be congratulated for making a comeback after not doing so well with us.
 

Jules_PF

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2014
252
450
Is this a serious suggestion? or are you trying to play Devils advocate?

With Porto he won the Champions League with a far inferior team compared to much of his competition

At Chelsea he faced strong competition from Man U and to a lesser extent Arsenal but later Man City - so while they were the richest and possibly even the best team they were by no means head and shoulders better than a team like Man U (note at one point Man U competed with him and Chelsea in the CL final no less so they were arguably the two best teams in Europe then) also had a Liverpool side to contend with that both won the CL and reached the final during his time with Chelsea so I'd suggest it's fair to say competition was significantly higher than what AVB has had at Porto and Zenit respectively

At Inter, again he won the CL with them while facing superior teams and domestically they had the likes of AC Milan, Juve and NApoli whoever to contend with

With Madrid he had to compete against the very best team in the world in recent years in Barcelona so I really don't think his Madrid team can be considered to have been head and shoulders above the competition in the way Porto were the year AVB competed for the league and in the Europa cup

So no - I really don't think the same can be said for Jose as AVB

A little devils advocate.

I just don't get the anti AVB sentiment. He has won 2 leagues and a Europa. Does it matter that its at a 'big' club in the league? Jose has done similar, although obviously to a far greater extent, but the fact remains, all teams he has managed have all been top 1-3.

Now. If Mourinho wants a real challenge..............
 

Jules_PF

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2014
252
450
How many times have Real won the title in the last 10 years?

Are you seriously trying to intimate that Real Madrid are not a big or dominant club? If they don't win the league for the next 20 years they'll still be one of the giants of world football.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I think AVB was a young manager who had plenty of learning to do, but I think he was doing a very good job under very difficult circumstances.

I think he was probably the only coach/manager we'd had in the last few years who's work on the coaching field wad clearly visible. I think we were better disciplined as a result of his coaching.

I think all coaches are hostages to fortune in terms of the quality of player they have - look at ManU, Dortmund, Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea in recent years to see what happens when great players come and go.

I think achieving our record points haul after losing Modric and VDV (and effectively Adebayor) was a phenomenal achievement. We then lost our last top quality player and we were still chugging along totting up points at a similar rate.

We've now had a whole year of looking equally devoid of creative wit, so we can all see the problem isn't one of pure coaching, and we look much worse defensively IMO.

I think AVB's inability to integrate the development group better was his biggest failing, but if the direction from Levy was top 4 or else, and you add in a fractious relationship with Sherwood you can mitigate it to an extent. AVB was happy to pick Rose and Townsend over the experienced Ekotto and our most expensive signing Lamela.

AVB was heavily criticised for ostracising Adebayor, but Pochettino has now added several others to Adebayor's black ball club.

I don't have a problem with a coach isolating and jettisoning players who are bad for group harmony, discipline and morale, I just wish AVB had been given the same backing to get things done his way and received a little more encouragement (in the form of tolerance of results and league position etc) to integrate development players, and the initial judgement that he was a young progressive coach with strong ideas given proper time and trust to achieve - or fail.
 

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
1,693
3,186
Are you seriously trying to intimate that Real Madrid are not a big or dominant club? If they don't win the league for the next 20 years they'll still be one of the giants of world football.

His point wasn't about how big the club was, it was about how big an achievement winning the league with that club was, versus how big an achievement AVB's two title wins are.

So yes, Real are a big and dominant force in Spain, but they are by no means THE ONLY dominant force in Spain and at the time, were playing second fiddle to one of the greatest club sides ever seen in their own league, but still won it under Mourinho.

Similarly, while Inter might be a massive club, they are by no means the only massive club in Italy and in terms of their dominance on the European stage, to be European Champions with them, was a pretty extraordinary feat of management, particularly as they had to play almost an entire leg against Barcelona with 10 men.
 

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
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3,186
I think AVB was a young manager who had plenty of learning to do, but I think he was doing a very good job under very difficult circumstances.

I think he was probably the only coach/manager we'd had in the last few years who's work on the coaching field wad clearly visible. I think we were better disciplined as a result of his coaching.

I think all coaches are hostages to fortune in terms of the quality of player they have - look at ManU, Dortmund, Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea in recent years to see what happens when great players come and go.

I think achieving our record points haul after losing Modric and VDV (and effectively Adebayor) was a phenomenal achievement. We then lost our last top quality player and we were still chugging along totting up points at a similar rate.

We've now had a whole year of looking equally devoid of creative wit, so we can all see the problem isn't one of pure coaching, and we look much worse defensively IMO.

I think AVB's inability to integrate the development group better was his biggest failing, but if the direction from Levy was top 4 or else, and you add in a fractious relationship with Sherwood you can mitigate it to an extent. AVB was happy to pick Rose and Townsend over the experienced Ekotto and our most expensive signing Lamela.

AVB was heavily criticised for ostracising Adebayor, but Pochettino has now added several others to Adebayor's black ball club.

I don't have a problem with a coach isolating and jettisoning players who are bad for group harmony, discipline and morale, I just wish AVB had been given the same backing to get things done his way and received a little more encouragement (in the form of tolerance of results and league position etc) to integrate development players, and the initial judgement that he was a young progressive coach with strong ideas given proper time and trust to achieve - or fail.

I think he would have been given that backing to get things done his way, if he didn't take any suggestion or input other than his own as a personal affront and didn't act unprofessionally.
 

kungfugrip

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2005
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I've never considered Porto to be an elite level European club. It never even crossed my mind to consider them one before you mentioned it to be honest. They're a good Portuguese club and a successful one but I've never considered them to be above second tier in the European landscape

Porto:
2 European Cups/Champions League
2 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Juve:
2 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Inter:
3 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
0 European Cup Winner's Cup

Not much difference really.
 

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
1,693
3,186
Porto:
2 European Cups/Champions League
2 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Juve:
2 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Inter:
3 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
0 European Cup Winner's Cup

Not much difference really.

You could do the same with Nottingham Forest. Context is king in this kind of thing.
 

Barry Mead

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2013
3,083
4,078
Well I never wanted him, glad when he left but now I'm still glad he went

Dull boring football, even now he's won the Russian league fans are complaining about the football under him

Far better he stays in lesser leagues where he can win something and where he can maybe learn from experience. Maybe in some years he'll be able to adjust to a tough league but right now he is where he needs to be and I'm still very grateful that isn't with us
 

kungfugrip

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,613
1,523
You could do the same with Nottingham Forest. Context is king in this kind of thing.

I thought facts would also help a bit in working out what an elite European Club is. Forest would have 2 trophies on that list above, not 5 or 6 like the ones mentioned.
 
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