Buy "ordinary" Experience or Coach what we have debate

SamR said:

Smart reply. I'd probably take just McCarthy. He is still youngish remember and would improve our squad. Jedinak is decent but would he suit our play?

On the face of it I actually think Suarez would be a decent signing - wouldn't play every game but that bit of bite when we need it would do us wonders. Bentaleb, Mason and Alli are a decent 3 if we have to stick.

If no first team improving players available stick and promote.

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I do like the sound of Suarez though I haven't watched him much he sounds like the type of player they could learn from.

Also was there meant to be a pun on bite and the name Suarez, clever.

The price of a player is irrelevant. If we have the money and want the player whether we fans think he is worth what is being asked doesn't matter.

Gotta admit it's an interesting question and one that doesn't really have a straightforward answer, just a lot of opinions.

I have to first say I have not watched much of our youngsters so that means I don't have the biggest grasp of how good ours actually are at the moment but nevertheless here's my opinion...

I think for the most part I'm in favour of coaching what we have. It sounds like and if last season has shown us anything it's that we have a talented young squad that can hopefully put us in a good place for the next few years, so yes I would like us to coach our youngsters and gradually bring them in (as it seems like we're doing).

As far as last season goes, we had some of our younger players being the main part of our team in the form of Dier, Kane, Bentaleb, Mason etc... and whilst we could have certainly tried out more, for his first season in charge and just setting things up I'm happy with what Poch has done. It does sound like we're involving the younger players with the first team more now, training photos and the start of pre-season is showing that so far. So it looks like we're coaching what we have and I'd want to assume that they'll be given their chance if they do impress. Especially with the amount of games we'd be likely to play I'd like to assume they'd get their chance and if they do well they'd be given a shot in the team.

As for buying experience, I'd say if there is a player out there who would instantly improve our first team then we should also go for them. In my opinion that's what Toby's signing was (I know some disagree but for me he'd be our second best CB behind Jan). So I'm okay with that. We don't tend to pay over the odds either so I'm not too worried about that side of things. The only worry is that if we buy an experienced player and they don't perform, if we keep them in the team or not. I'd like to hope that Poch picks players partially on form so if someone isn't playing well and there's another player (be it a youngster or a squad player) that Poch would pick them and give them a shot. So that'd be my take on the experienced players side of things.

From looking on this site and seeing who people are championing, we've got a lot of quality players we can coach and develop into first team players and there sounds like an argument can be made for a lot of them being involved with the first team. Some seem physically ready, some seem mentally ready and some both. Issue with that is there is never any answer to when someone's ready, we don't know and the step up may be too much for some and others can surprise so there's no way of knowing, but from what I've seen of Poch and how the club is currently being run and all the ITK etc... I'd be willing to say we're coaching the youngsters and if they prove themselves in training, cup games, etc... then we'd give them a fair shot and reward them accordingly. Our coaches opinions may not gospel and 100% on the mark but I trust them enough to know when it's right to move someone up and what is right for their development.

IGSpur said:

See I think we're all in agreement. The issue is, when we can't get that top experienced player (subjective) should we look to our academy and coach them into the first team or buy average players to further block their path, who will never get any better.

Out of curiosity how many of the following 16 players would people prefer to buy before looking to our youth, I just chose a random selection of CM/DMs. Say all of them were quoted for 15m and 40k wages. It's either pay that or we are 'stuck' with what we have. Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Sissoko, Jedinak, Livermore, Huddlestone, Fer, McArthur, Delph, Ki, Sanchez, Larsson, N'Zonzi, Gardner, Adam.

I think it is an interesting question and don't mean to take 'shots' at anyone

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besic(potentially), mccarthy, delph and ki are all decent, jedinak could be a useful player to have if we wanted someone in that role. i think where you and i differ from most is that we want top players and we're willing to wait for them, whereas most are happy to just take a serviceable player who will help maintain our current standing.

IGSpur said:

I do like the sound of Suarez though I haven't watched him much he sounds like the type of player they could learn from.

Also was there meant to be a pun on bite and the name Suarez, clever.

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Too clever for my own good sometimes

Blake Griffin said:

besic(potentially), mccarthy, delph and ki are all decent, jedinak could be a useful player to have if we wanted someone in that role. i think where you and i differ from most is that we want top players and we're willing to wait for them, whereas most are happy to just take a serviceable player who will help maintain our current standing.

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I'm with you on that too - it's the who we deem decent vs average that we can ponder all day long.

It will be interesting to see what our end squad looks like now. I think 3 more in still CM, CF and WF - 5-8 out; Stambouli, Ade, Lennon, Vlad, Kaboul and possibly Soldado, Townsend and Carroll - got a feeling tommy will be off when we realise Alli is ahead of him too.

As you can see lots of room for youth to find their way into our first team squad even with 3 signings.

The irony is that the whole argument for playing youth centers around the Academy products who produced for us last year.

Unfortunately, that argument only serves to disprove the notion that we should play specific players now. Pochettino played those players last year - precisely because he thought they were ready to contribute at a high level. If Pochettino thought other players were ready - he would play them also. By the very argument that those player played hard for us last season - it shows that Poch will play players who are ready.

This notion that the Academy players have not had a chance to prove themselves is quite tiring - they have an opportunity to prove themselves every single day - just not to you or me. The coaches see them train, and have a very good understanding about where those players are in their development. Some of you act like nobody at the club is aware that Veljkovic played in the U20 WC this summer - I am certain they were aware, and watched his (and CCV's) performances. They know how he performed - and whether he is capable of playing a role this season. It not a secret which only supporters know.

Spurs are not a Mid-table squad with nothing better to do than bed youngsters. They have to earn their playing time - just like anyone else.

SamR said:

I'm with you on that too - it's the who we deem decent vs average that we can ponder all day long.

It will be interesting to see what our end squad looks like now. I think 3 more in still CM, CF and WF - 5-8 out; Stambouli, Ade, Lennon, Vlad, Kaboul and possibly Soldado, Townsend and Carroll - got a feeling tommy will be off when we realise Alli is ahead of him too.

As you can see lots of room for youth to find their way into our first team squad even with 3 signings.

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i hope so as i think we have 3-4 coming through who have the potential to be better than the level of player we could possibly sign as it stands, along with 5-6 others who can be decent level players for spurs. it's the latter i think a lot of youth watchers have the biggest gripe with because they're the type we'd go out and spend 10m and 40-50k a week on when there's no need as they're already there just waiting to be given a chance.

Coach what we have and buy better than what we have.

Should really be quite straightforward but I can't think of a club that struggles more in this respect than us.

We consistently recycyle the same level of player and absolutely destroy so many promising careers in the process.

LexingtonSpurs said:

The irony is that the whole argument for playing youth centers around the Academy products who produced for us last year.

Unfortunately, that argument only serves to disprove the notion that we should play specific players now. Pochettino played those players last year - precisely because he thought they were ready to contribute at a high level. If Pochettino thought other players were ready - he would play them also. By the very argument that those player played hard for us last season - it shows that Poch will play players who are ready.

This notion that the Academy players have not had a chance to prove themselves is quite tiring - they have an opportunity to prove themselves every single day - just not to you or me. The coaches see them train, and have a very good understanding about where those players are in their development. Some of you act like nobody at the club is aware that Veljkovic played in the U20 WC this summer - I am certain they were aware, and watched his (and CCV's) performances. They know how he performed - and whether he is capable of playing a role this season. It not a secret which only supporters know.

Spurs are not a Mid-table squad with nothing better to do than bed youngsters. They have to earn their playing time - just like anyone else.

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Except that isn't the argument. Poch gave Kane and Mason a chance as our other players were completely inept, and they went on to show that all along we had as a good or better ready in the wings.

Anyway going back to the debate, it's not whether Poch will play a young player over a failed signing the argument is whether we should continue to by run of the mill signings when we have seen that our top academy players have out performed them resulting in us wasting money which we could have tucked away and spent elsewhere. Not only do we take losses on those players but they also take up spots in the squad preventing us from buying and drain wages.

The debate is, maybe seeing this evidence, in the future could Poch not just use what we already have rather than throwing players in their way and only buy players that are considerably better than we already have. The main debate is other whether McCarthy is considered a top player. Well I put it to you that before we signed Capoue, I am confident that the majority of posters would rather have bought Capoue over McCarthy and considered him a good signing and improve the first team, Again when we bought Paulinho, I bet most people would have rated him higher than McCarthy on ability and look what has happened to him. Will will probably see this season that McCarthy is no better than Stambouli if he ends up at Watford or PSG(who never really got a chance with us, and I think he was decent).

If we could do it again I bet noone would want to sign those types off players now so why are we aiming for the same standard again?

I want the best for Spurs I want us to buy the best we can and have the money set aside to afford the players fees and wages (where possible) and that can be aided by using our best youth players who have shown they can already outperform the standard players we buy, so why continue to put them in their way. Another one was Rose and Davies. Davies was expected to become 1st choice and Rose is now our undisputed best LB.

"This notion that the Academy players have not had a chance to prove themselves is quite tiring - they have an opportunity to prove themselves every single day - just not to you or me."

Again, we can say this about any first team players so surely we're allowed to give our opinion on whether we think they are good enough, which we are debating. Just because Poch doesn't think they are apparently not ready it doesn't mean they aren't or can't be debated. There are other factors that could come into play as to why he wouldn't play someone e.g. fans getting on his and the players back at him daring to trust our youth.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...-other-youth-news.88939/page-265#post-3766265

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...-other-youth-news.88939/page-265#post-3766265

This was two years ago, when Sherwood thought they were ready who would know them better than Poch does, was he incorrect having watched them day in day out and coached them. I struggle to believe someone they has won the u20 World Cup could have regressed so badly over 2 years that he is no longer ready now. At that time we were still competing for the same spots we are now 5/6/7th so no they weren't being introduced to a mid table club.

barry said:

I'm not saying Mccarthy is the answer. The club are. I haven't watched nearly enough of him to form am opinion,but people who have seen him seem suitably impressed.
Milos could be gods gift to football. I don't know. Let him do what pritchard did then bring his name into the debate.
The problem is I think some of you put too much faith in the youth setup. More often I'm seeing this dude's shit let's replace him with someone from the academy. This position is a problem, but this academy graduate tore up that position for the u21 let's try him.
It's just not feasible
Due to social media and youtube everyone seems to think they know as much as our couches in regard to our players.
We have a coach who takes risks on youth, if he thinks they're ready he'll play them.

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If you had looked into the youth thread you'd find that we don't say every youth has a good chance of playing first team football with Spurs, we are very selective. So far Spurs have had Caulker, Livermore, Rose, Townsend, Mason, Kane, Bentaleb and now Pritchard in the first team - which averages about 2 Spurs youth per year making it at Spurs - and the youth thread is identifying top youth players at that rate, and also calling those that will fall just short
(see for example my post in the Ward loan thread).

Last season Poch did not play much youth - restricting it to a few minutes in one appearance each to Onomah and Winks, possibly due to an overload of overpaid underperforming expensive bought players. Hopefully he's start to give more of the deserving youth a chance - like he did in his latter months at Southampton

The youth thread is lucky enough to have a number of good informed youngsters who can identify the likely prospects - your comments on social media junkies unfortunately applies to posters who generally promote the virtues of the latest foreign player linked to Spurs or otherwise, often on the base of watching a couple of you tubes

Main Man said:

Coach what we have and buy better than what we have.

Should really be quite straightforward but I can't think of a club that struggles more in this respect than us.

We consistently recycyle the same level of player and absolutely destroy so many promising careers in the process.

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Yeah we really struggle. That's why we have enjoyed our longest consistent run of top 6 finishes in our history despite changing our squad multiple times.

Our problem is in many cases it is hard to upgrade what we have because to do that we would have to buy top 4 quality players that demand wages that we can't afford. We have to take chances on players with the hope they develop and perform at a high level. Obviously these signings don't always work because they are by very definition a gamble.

No recruitment is 'straightforward' but if you have more resources you can cover any mistakes by discarding players or just buying the highest quality players available. We don't have that luxury.

LexingtonSpurs said:

The irony is that the whole argument for playing youth centers around the Academy products who produced for us last year.

Unfortunately, that argument only serves to disprove the notion that we should play specific players now. Pochettino played those players last year - precisely because he thought they were ready to contribute at a high level. If Pochettino thought other players were ready - he would play them also. By the very argument that those player played hard for us last season - it shows that Poch will play players who are ready.

This notion that the Academy players have not had a chance to prove themselves is quite tiring - they have an opportunity to prove themselves every single day - just not to you or me. The coaches see them train, and have a very good understanding about where those players are in their development. Some of you act like nobody at the club is aware that Veljkovic played in the U20 WC this summer - I am certain they were aware, and watched his (and CCV's) performances. They know how he performed - and whether he is capable of playing a role this season. It not a secret which only supporters know.

Spurs are not a Mid-table squad with nothing better to do than bed youngsters. They have to earn their playing time - just like anyone else.

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Sorry the bit highlighted is just rubbish

We can only have so many untried inexperienced players in the team - there has to be a blend of experience in there somewhere. So Poch played a Mason/Bentaleb CM2 because they looked the best option and Kane up top - again looked the best option.

But do you think he could have successfully played 11 inexperienced academy graduates and achieved the same success last season ? No

So now that Kane has a 30+ goal pedigree and is known almost across the world as the young local player made good (I kid you not) and Mason/Bentaleb performing well according to Chelsea friends of mine (spit) - even though less appreciated by a couple on SC - those 3 will have some experience to take into next season, and Poch is likely to keep them in the team to start with if they continue to perform as they did last season (hopefully with more rotation) which allows Poch to also try out less experienced players to see if they can make the same impression as those 3 did. But that's only going to happen if we continue to have the right blend of experience in the team/squad.

I'm very keen to promote the best youth we have into the first team, as having a decent knowledge of them I'm pretty sure they will perform well - but that doesn't mean that I don't want to buy in good top quality experienced players.

What I don't like is buying in experienced players who cannot or will not perform for Spurs on a regular basis - step forward at least half of the Magnificent 7 misfits.

JUSTINSIGNAL said:

Yeah we really struggle. That's why we have enjoyed our longest consistent run of top 6 finishes in our history despite changing our squad multiple times.

Our problem is in many cases it is hard to upgrade what we have because to do that we would have to buy top 4 quality players that demand wages that we can't afford. We have to take chances on players with the hope they develop and perform at a high level. Obviously these signings don't always work because they are by very definition a gamble.

No recruitment is 'straightforward' but if you have more resources you can cover any mistakes by discarding players or just buying the highest quality players available. We don't have that luxury.

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But surely the best way for us to stand a chance in bettering that is by buying top class players, where they may become available, but having slightly free wages and transfer fees to play with. In our planned squads people will say sell Paulinho, Capoue and Stambouli and use that money to buy someone like Schneiderlin. We took losses on all those players. Now if in teh future we chose to just not buy those players and saved that money and spent it all on Schneiderlin in the first place we may have improved.

Using MS as an example again, by all accounts he was happy to come to as and with our terms. However, we couldn't meet Southampton's asking price. Buy saving money we would have more flexibility to meet transfer fees for targets we want.

Just catching up so apologies if this has been said but we also need to remember that Poch wouldn't have know much about our youth last season. Certainly not enough to trust them with his job, which is how it could have ended up being.
Over the past season, he'll have been getting to know them and so I expect to see a few more over this season.
Poch seems to look for mentality and attitude, as much as talent and it strikes me that he likes to get to know the players, rather than just watch them play a bit, before entrusting them with first team duties.

McFlash said:

Just catching up so apologies if this has been said but we also need to remember that Poch wouldn't have know much about our youth last season. Certainly not enough to trust them with his job, which is how it could have ended up being.
Over the past season, he'll have been getting to know them and so I expect to see a few more over this season.
Poch seems to look for mentality and attitude, as much as talent and it strikes me that he likes to get to know the players, rather than just watch them play a bit, before entrusting them with first team duties.

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He had no idea who Ryan Mason was until the first day of training, so I'd say that's definitely the case.

Levy has always had a plan, a business model for this club and he's been putting it into action for the past decade or so. That's why he's always trying to keep us up there with sponsorships and all sorts of other innovations, why he wanted the amazing training complex and why he wants a groundbreaking stadium.
Bringing through youth has always been an important part of his plans because it's a bloody good way of making the club money. Barca can buy the big names but can also attract good youngsters and create plenty of their own. Levy wants a piece of that action.

I haven't read through the whole thread but we obviously need a mixture of experience and club trained players.

I'd like to see us have a squad predominantly made up of club trained players with about 5 or 6 top class 'star' players and 3 or 4 youth player purchased form other clubs with the potential to become top class with the right coaching. obviously these top players cost serious money and have enormous wages but hopefully the savings we would make throughout the rest of the squad would allow us to offer attractive packages. People may say that top players won't come to Spurs but if you offer them the right money they will.

McFlash said:

Levy has always had a plan, a business model for this club and he's been putting it into action for the past decade or so. That's why he's always trying to keep us up there with sponsorships and all sorts of other innovations, why he wanted the amazing training complex and why he wants a groundbreaking stadium.
Bringing through youth has always been an important part of his plans because it's a bloody good way of making the club money. Barca can buy the big names but can also attract good youngsters and create plenty of their own. Levy wants a piece of that action.

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ENIC took over in 2001, 14 years ago. At the time, Mason, Townsend and Caulker were 9, Livermore was 11, and Kane was 7 - all of them were just joining Spurs, or had recently joined. The first generation of players that excels is the first generation that spent their entire academy career under ENIC. I doubt that's a coincidence.

I would believe into this coach over buy philosophy if poch can keep Kane scoring at the rate he is and somehow instill confidence into soldado. I still have , very misguided and 100% stupidity , faith that soldado will come good . Please do not ask why I have this faith or I will have to state how old I am