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SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
2,314
1,699
I don't care what Adam Bate or Opta Joe propose.

We are the most boring team in the Premier League and I have no faith in us scoring in any game that we play.

We are predictable, easy to contain and look more like making a defensive mistake than producing a moment of attacking brilliance.

I said last season we were the furthest we have been from the Champions League in recent years, but seemingly we are intent on removing ourselves from the Champions League equation altogether.
 

Neon_Knight_

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2011
3,975
6,608
I don't care what Adam Bate or Opta Joe propose.

We are the most boring team in the Premier League and I have no faith in us scoring in any game that we play.

We are predictable, easy to contain and look more like making a defensive mistake than producing a moment of attacking brilliance.

I said last season we were the furthest we have been from the Champions League in recent years, but seemingly we are intent on removing ourselves from the Champions League equation altogether.

Please tell me you don't think Everton were less boring than us on Saturday. They were second best and created far fewer chances, yet pundits were negative about our performance and strangely positive about Everton (who were lucky to scrape a point). Same goes for Leicester the week before. If we were expected to finish 8th or 9th, like Everton, everyone would be saying we outplayed the opposition and were unlucky not to grab a winner.

Everyone, including the media, pundits, fans (worst of all, our own), moan about how poor we are and how far we are from challenging for top 4, yet still put expectations on us to perform like a top 4 side week in week out, then go way overboard when we don't. You can't have it both ways: Either we're good enough for top 4 or we're not. Just because we're not playing like a top 4 team, doesn't make us rubbish.

If you think we're "boring" and would prefer to have less possession, create less chances and concede more goals, there would be a very long list of Premier League teams queuing up to trade places. After a few seasons struggling in the bottom and half, pundits might start to give credit where credit is due (which for this season would be along the lines of "we're playing ok, despite missing key players from injury and late transfers, and results will soon start going our way").
 

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
2,314
1,699
Please tell me you don't think Everton were less boring than us on Saturday. They were second best and created far fewer chances, yet pundits were negative about our performance and strangely positive about Everton (who were lucky to scrape a point). Same goes for Leicester the week before. If we were expected to finish 8th or 9th, like Everton, everyone would be saying we outplayed the opposition and were unlucky not to grab a winner.

Everyone, including the media, pundits, fans (worst of all, our own), moan about how poor we are and how far we are from challenging for top 4, yet still put expectations on us to perform like a top 4 side week in week out, then go way overboard when we don't. You can't have it both ways: Either we're good enough for top 4 or we're not. Just because we're not playing like a top 4 team, doesn't make us rubbish.

If you think we're "boring" and would prefer to have less possession, create less chances and concede more goals, there would be a very long list of Premier League teams queuing up to trade places. After a few seasons struggling in the bottom and half, pundits might start to give credit where credit is due (which for this season would be along the lines of "we're playing ok, despite missing key players from injury and late transfers, and results will soon start going our way").

Everton, Stoke (for the majority of the game), Leicester and Manchester United were all incredibly poor against us.

Yet we have failed to beat the lot of them.

I think we are good enough to secure a top four finish based on how comparatively average our competition is for that last spot.

But is exactly that what makes this all the more infuriating.

We were the better team on Saturday, but at the same time I didn't think we ever looked like scoring. I think that is a pretty fair observation though?
 

TheHoddleWaddle

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2013
11,289
20,289
So, with one striker, who cannot possibly play every game this season, how will Poch flex the squad? Will we see more dynamic thinking?

Of the attacking players we have, who is likely to fill in?
 

RichieS

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2004
11,916
16,436
Everton, Stoke (for the majority of the game), Leicester and Manchester United were all incredibly poor against us.

Yet we have failed to beat the lot of them.

I think we are good enough to secure a top four finish based on how comparatively average our competition is for that last spot.

But is exactly that what makes this all the more infuriating.

We were the better team on Saturday, but at the same time I didn't think we ever looked like scoring. I think that is a pretty fair observation though?
And of course all of those teams being poor against us was absolutely nothing to do with the way we played nullifying their threats.

We had enough good chances against Everton to win comfortably.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
I wanted to bring the conversation here because I disagree with you about the Bentaleb/Mason axis in a 4231 being the superior choice to Dier (with either one of them), or, most preferable of all, Dembele.

In the Team for Everton thread talking about the Mason/Bentaleb axis of last season you said:

In terms of reading the game and positional sense Bentaleb (2.67) intercepts more than Dier (2.19) with Mason (1.98) not far behind. I think with these two we could win the ball higher up the pitch instead of in the deeper areas where Dier perhaps does. But where these two both piss it is they both see about 20% more ball, make more vertical (or forward) passes (which if you read all you can about Pochettino you know is at the core of his philosophy) and they make double (Bentaleb 0.57 p90) and four times (Mason 0.97) the key passes.

...

I think collectively we are so much better without the ball, especially the front four. I also hope that Bentaleb and Mason, who IMO were bloody good last year whilst we as a team weren't as good without the ball, will also be working day in day out in training with Pochettino to improve weaknesses in their games (Bentaleb does need to learn to not switch off on a runner etc - but this is easily taught) but neither of these lack tenacity and work rate and both suit Pochettino's press and quick vertical transition ethos better than Dier or Dembele as CM's IMO, as long as they can learn to be better positionally and tactically diligent too - which Dier and Dembele are pretty good at.

I share your hope about training having improved Bentaleb and Mason, but if it has Poch doesn't seem to believe it too much, or at least not believe they're better in the CM than Carroll, or Dembele, alongside Dier - actually that's not quite fair as I believe he's played Mason there quite a lot this season when he's been fit.

The problem last year was the positional play and decision making within the Bentaleb/Mason axis, in fact if anything that could be highlighted by the increased intercepts, because half the job of the defensive screen in midfield is to delay the opposition; to force them wide or back while the rest of the midfield streams back into shape. In that circumstance knowing when to jump in and when to stick is crucial. I felt last year we were undone too often when one of our Centre mids would dive in and be bypassed. Yes playing this way increases the number of intercepts an individual gets, but to the detriment of the team, because when the break isn't slowed because the attempted intercept fails, the attackers often get an overload on the defence.

For me the introduction of Toby and Eric with their ability to hold the opposition up, their reading of the game, and the decision making on and off the ball, more than anything have contributed to our defensive stability.

I do also agree with your point, made elsewhere, about the work-rate of our front four also being integral, but for me that is as much an offensive weapon as a defensive one - it pens the opposition up in their own half and forces turnovers early and in dangerous places or forces them to play long balls - but if they escape the press our Achilles heal - especially last season - is the space left in behind which is precisely where players like Dier and also Alderweireld are so important.

I came across this excellent site earlier today: https://differentgame.wordpress.com/xg-shot-maps-and-tables/

It shows that last year our expected goals against per game was 1.4 (15th in the PL), this year it's 0.95 (2nd) and it hasn't happened at the expense of our attacking prowess either which has seen our expected goals per game improve from 1.3 last year to 1.83 this year. The reason for this is obviously not just one thing, but along with the more energetic and coordinated press up the field I believe the calm, measured reading of the game and decision making of our CBs, Dier and Lloris also has played a big part.
 

Sweech

Ruh Roh Ressegnon
Jun 27, 2013
6,752
16,378
I don't care what Adam Bate or Opta Joe propose.

We are the most boring team in the Premier League and I have no faith in us scoring in any game that we play.

We are predictable, easy to contain and look more like making a defensive mistake than producing a moment of attacking brilliance.

I said last season we were the furthest we have been from the Champions League in recent years, but seemingly we are intent on removing ourselves from the Champions League equation altogether.
This is one of those hilarious posts to re-read now.
 

alamo

Don't worry be happy
Jun 10, 2004
5,047
7,226
This is one of those hilarious posts to re-read now.

To be fair it was far from the worst comment bandied about the site at the time.

Best of all it is wonderfully indicative of how quickly we have been progressing under Poch's management. (y)
 

Sweech

Ruh Roh Ressegnon
Jun 27, 2013
6,752
16,378
To be fair it was far from the worst comment bandied about the site at the time.

Best of all it is wonderfully indicative of how quickly we have been progressing under Poch's management. (y)
It does show how some of those stats that he was lamenting can be somewhat predictive of future performances though.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I wanted to bring the conversation here because I disagree with you about the Bentaleb/Mason axis in a 4231 being the superior choice to Dier (with either one of them), or, most preferable of all, Dembele.

In the Team for Everton thread talking about the Mason/Bentaleb axis of last season you said:



I share your hope about training having improved Bentaleb and Mason, but if it has Poch doesn't seem to believe it too much, or at least not believe they're better in the CM than Carroll, or Dembele, alongside Dier - actually that's not quite fair as I believe he's played Mason there quite a lot this season when he's been fit.

The problem last year was the positional play and decision making within the Bentaleb/Mason axis, in fact if anything that could be highlighted by the increased intercepts, because half the job of the defensive screen in midfield is to delay the opposition; to force them wide or back while the rest of the midfield streams back into shape. In that circumstance knowing when to jump in and when to stick is crucial. I felt last year we were undone too often when one of our Centre mids would dive in and be bypassed. Yes playing this way increases the number of intercepts an individual gets, but to the detriment of the team, because when the break isn't slowed because the attempted intercept fails, the attackers often get an overload on the defence.

For me the introduction of Toby and Eric with their ability to hold the opposition up, their reading of the game, and the decision making on and off the ball, more than anything have contributed to our defensive stability.

I do also agree with your point, made elsewhere, about the work-rate of our front four also being integral, but for me that is as much an offensive weapon as a defensive one - it pens the opposition up in their own half and forces turnovers early and in dangerous places or forces them to play long balls - but if they escape the press our Achilles heal - especially last season - is the space left in behind which is precisely where players like Dier and also Alderweireld are so important.

I came across this excellent site earlier today: https://differentgame.wordpress.com/xg-shot-maps-and-tables/

It shows that last year our expected goals against per game was 1.4 (15th in the PL), this year it's 0.95 (2nd) and it hasn't happened at the expense of our attacking prowess either which has seen our expected goals per game improve from 1.3 last year to 1.83 this year. The reason for this is obviously not just one thing, but along with the more energetic and coordinated press up the field I believe the calm, measured reading of the game and decision making of our CBs, Dier and Lloris also has played a big part.



I accept some of your argument. I am not wholly convinced Mason and Bentaleb can be the best or only pairing for our CM2. But what I think is, if they have or are learning - lets not forget that one of these was 20yo and both were having their first full seasons in the EPL last year - then having a combination of players who can possibly do the things Dier can do defensively, but also being more dynamic, better able to press, more metronomic, more visionary and progressive with their passing might be worth considering.

As I said at the end of my response to you in the team for Everton thread, I don't think there is necessarily an only or best eleven for every occasion. I do like the stability of a very defensive anchor in the CM2 sometimes, a player less ambitious offensively but with good positional awareness, and I have been more content with Dier than I expected to be, I'm not shitting myself if he plays that's for sure, but I'm maybe not as convinced as you that Dier is the best we can do for that job, that his contribution is as integral to our overall defensive performance this season as you are maybe or that he's always done it any better than Bentaleb or Mason did it at times last year. But I also acknowledge that he's done a damn good job there often too.

The problem is there have been so many other improvements defensively in our structure - the vast (and I mean vast - you've seen the stats) improvement of our front 4, whoever plays there (now there is no Chadli or Townsend half arsing about) - the more disciplined role our full backs are playing (Walker is seeing nearly 30% less of the ball, thus concentrating more on his defensive game, the more conservative Davies is starting to get picked ahead of Rose) - Alderweireld has been an absolutely massive influence - it's very hard to quantify the magnitude of Dier's positive/negative impact on our defensive and offensive balance.

I would like to hold up the Liverpool game as a solitary (and therefore I accept weakened) example of how no Dier, didn't mean an adverse effect defensively, it was one of our best defensive performances of the season against a side who were absolutely "at it like bastards" for their new manager. We allowed them one shot on goal I believe. The problem there (and with Dembele IMO) is that Dembele doesn't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of the system - the press and win the ball back and transition quickly concept - and Alli doesn't see anywhere near enough of the ball as a CM to facilitate control and both he and Dier have a a tendency to look very leggy from about 60 minutes onwards in games.

I'd like to bring @mpickard2087 in on this because I think he thinks like me on two fronts. The first, that Dier isn't always the great defensive shield you think, and secondly because both of us were consistently saying last season that it doesn't matter who you play in our CM2 if you don't get the people ahead of them doing their defensive jobs properly and the full backs learning when to stay and when to go properly, they (the CM2) will get dragged about and made to look bad (or positionally poor).

We have played several different CM2 combinations and although there is only one example (that I can think of, in the league anyway) of Dier not being part of the CM2 (Liverpool) we have played numerous other combinations. Dier and Mason, Dier and Bentaleb (where ManU were only allowed one shot on target at OT), Dembele and Alli, Dembele and Dier. None of those seemed to have an adverse effect on our defensive performance - but we have drawn the most games on the EPL and we have surrendered more points from winning positions in the EPL. We know the front four, full backs and CB areas have definitely improved defensively, so why are we drawing so much and conceding so many winning positions ? I think possibly because we haven't got the balance right all the time, that having a CM that drops back to become a third CB or runs out of gas or having CM's that don't receive and rotate the ball enough is sometimes allowing us to lose control of games.

Last season our two best performances (Arsenal home and Liverpool away) both came with Bentaleb and Mason). Pochettino when asked a couple of weeks ago what our best performance under him had been replied that Arsenal game from last season. I think that is because when everyone else is doing their job (as they were that game) and these two are on their game they can both get around the pitch and press close better than Dier who can be turned, but they can also both get through shitloads of ball and are both more progressive and productive with it. So I would like to see that combination again, but this time within the all areas improved Spurs of this season around them. Still doesn't mean it has to be set in stone. It might not be the right "balance" for all occasions. But when you look at how well those two did last season in a transitional and much poorer organised and lesser working team, whilst having their first full seasons, surely worth a shot ? I think it could be a Cabaye/Schniederlin type partnership which would be very good if it works.
 
Last edited:

Spursidol

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2007
12,636
15,834
I wanted to bring the conversation here because I disagree with you about the Bentaleb/Mason axis in a 4231 being the superior choice to Dier (with either one of them), or, most preferable of all, Dembele.

In the Team for Everton thread talking about the Mason/Bentaleb axis of last season you said:



I share your hope about training having improved Bentaleb and Mason, but if it has Poch doesn't seem to believe it too much, or at least not believe they're better in the CM than Carroll, or Dembele, alongside Dier - actually that's not quite fair as I believe he's played Mason there quite a lot this season when he's been fit.

The problem last year was the positional play and decision making within the Bentaleb/Mason axis, in fact if anything that could be highlighted by the increased intercepts, because half the job of the defensive screen in midfield is to delay the opposition; to force them wide or back while the rest of the midfield streams back into shape. In that circumstance knowing when to jump in and when to stick is crucial. I felt last year we were undone too often when one of our Centre mids would dive in and be bypassed. Yes playing this way increases the number of intercepts an individual gets, but to the detriment of the team, because when the break isn't slowed because the attempted intercept fails, the attackers often get an overload on the defence.

For me the introduction of Toby and Eric with their ability to hold the opposition up, their reading of the game, and the decision making on and off the ball, more than anything have contributed to our defensive stability.

I do also agree with your point, made elsewhere, about the work-rate of our front four also being integral, but for me that is as much an offensive weapon as a defensive one - it pens the opposition up in their own half and forces turnovers early and in dangerous places or forces them to play long balls - but if they escape the press our Achilles heal - especially last season - is the space left in behind which is precisely where players like Dier and also Alderweireld are so important.

I came across this excellent site earlier today: https://differentgame.wordpress.com/xg-shot-maps-and-tables/

It shows that last year our expected goals against per game was 1.4 (15th in the PL), this year it's 0.95 (2nd) and it hasn't happened at the expense of our attacking prowess either which has seen our expected goals per game improve from 1.3 last year to 1.83 this year. The reason for this is obviously not just one thing, but along with the more energetic and coordinated press up the field I believe the calm, measured reading of the game and decision making of our CBs, Dier and Lloris also has played a big part.

Interesting post.

The bit I think that needs adding to the analysis is that last season the 3 AM's ability to hold onto the ball was poor - particularly Lamela who has improved so much this season, but the same was true across the front 3. It was almost at the point that the ball would bounce off the 3 AM's and back onto the 2 CM's, and that of course meant that they had to cover a big piece of the pitch, which with 2 players is all but impossible.

This season the front 3 AM's ball retention is so much better that its chalk and cheese to last season,

And that of course means that the CM's have less chasing to do, and therefore are more robust. Add in that Toby is not only a very good defender and reader of the game but also a great passer of the ball (the 2 assists for Alli from long accurate passes are an excellent illustration of his passing ability) means that in some situations Toby almost acts as an extra CM.

What I think would be interesting, but doubt it will happen, is for Mason/Bentaleb to act as CM's for a short run of matches this season with the improved 3 AM's and Toby in our 'first team', and I think you'd see a much different outcome from last season when they saved our bacon after Capoue and co were 'found out'.

That's not to decry Dier's excellent metamorphosis from 3rd CB to DM and the fantastic form of Dembele (a reminder of his form at Fulham v ManU which is why we bought him) compared with the last 3 or so years, but just to put it into context that with last season's 3 AM's form and without Toby, Dier would not find things as easy this season.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
I accept some of your argument. I am not wholly convinced Mason and Bentaleb can be the best or only pairing for our CM2. But what I think is, if they have or are learning - lets not forget that one of these was 20yo and both were having their first full seasons in the EPL last year - then having a combination of players who can possibly do the things Dier can do defensively, but also being more dynamic, better able to press, more metronomic, more visionary and progressive with their passing might be worth considering.

As I said at the end of my response to you in the team for Everton thread, I don't think there is necessarily an only or best eleven for every occasion. I do like the stability of a very defensive anchor in the CM2 sometimes, a player less ambitious offensively but with good positional awareness, and I have been more content with Dier than I expected to be, I'm not shitting myself if he plays that's for sure, but I'm maybe not as convinced as you that Dier is the best we can do for that job, that his contribution is as integral to our overall defensive performance this season as you are maybe or that he's always done it any better than Bentaleb or Mason did it at times last year. But I also acknowledge that he's done a damn good job there often too.

The problem is there have been so many other improvements defensively in our structure - the vast (and I mean vast - you've seen the stats) improvement of our front 4, whoever plays there (now there is no Chadli or Townsend half arsing about) - the more disciplined role our full backs are playing (Walker is seeing nearly 30% less of the ball, thus concentrating more on his defensive game, the more conservative Davies is starting to get picked ahead of Rose) - Alderweireld has been an absolutely massive influence - it's very hard to quantify the magnitude of Dier's positive/negative impact on our defensive and offensive balance.

I would like to hold up the Liverpool game as a solitary (and therefore I accept weakened) example of how no Dier, didn't mean an adverse effect defensively, it was one of our best defensive performances of the season against a side who were absolutely "at it like bastards" for their new manager. We allowed them one shot on goal I believe. The problem there (and with Dembele IMO) is that Dembele doesn't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of the system - the press and win the ball back and transition quickly concept - and Alli doesn't see anywhere near enough of the ball as a CM to facilitate control and both he and Dier have a a tendency to look very leggy from about 60 minutes onwards in games.

I'd like to bring @mpickard2087 in on this because I think he thinks like me on two fronts. The first, that Dier isn't always the great defensive shield you think, and secondly because both of us were consistently saying last season that it doesn't matter who you play in our CM2 if you don't get the people ahead of them doing their defensive jobs properly and the full backs learning when to stay and when to go properly, they (the CM2) will get dragged about and made to look bad (or positionally poor).

We have played several different CM2 combinations and although there is only one example (that I can think of, in the league anyway) of Dier not being part of the CM2 (Liverpool) we have played numerous other combinations. Dier and Mason, Dier and Bentaleb (where ManU were only allowed one shot on target at OT), Dembele and Alli, Dembele and Dier. None of those seemed to have an adverse effect on our defensive performance - but we have drawn the most games on the EPL and we have surrendered more points from winning positions in the EPL. We know the front four, full backs and CB areas have definitely improved defensively, so why are we drawing so much and conceding so many winning positions ? I think possibly because we haven't got the balance right all the time, that having a CM that drops back to become a third CB or runs out of gas or having CM's that don't receive and rotate the ball enough is sometimes allowing us to lose control of games.

Last season our two best performances (Arsenal home and Liverpool away) both came with Bentaleb and Mason). Pochettino when asked a couple of weeks ago what our best performance under him had been replied that Arsenal game from last season. I think that is because when these two are on their game they can both get around the pitch and press close better than Dier who can be turned, but they can also both get through shitloads of ball and are both more progressive and productive with it. So I would like to see that combination again, but this time within the all areas improved Spurs of this season around them. Still doesn't mean it has to be set in stone. It might not be the right "balance" for all occasions. But when you look at how well those two did last season in a transitional and much poorer organised and lesser working team, whilst having their first full seasons, surely worth a shot ? I think it could be a Cabaye/Schniederlin type partnership which would be very good if it works.

Good post BC. Very little I disagree with and not much I could add to that really. Just on the bit where you tagged me in, especially about Dier. I think he started the season solidly and did a decent job in the first 5 games and that's kind of earned him a free pass in some people's eyes. I've pointed out repeatedly this season that when the tide turns against us in games (usually second half of games, Everton at the weekend and some of the Europa games were the best examples of this) he tends to go missing a bit both with the ball at his feet and doing his defensive duties and 'struggles' as much as the cm2 last year was accused of doing so.
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
Not sure where to put this but this seems as good a place as any.

Perhaps surprisingly, ESPNFC have posted a column that is halfway decent. It analyses why our goal difference is much improved from last season and how we are defending better as a team.

It covers the improvement of our centre-halves and the addition of Dier which makes our midfield sturdier, but it also looks at how we are implementing Pochettino's pressing game more effectively this season and - like @Bus-Conductor and a few other posters have regularly pointed out - the impressive defensive contributions from the 4 attacking players.

http://www.espnfc.com.au/barclays-p...enham-progress-due-to-much-improved-defending
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
Wow, not ashamed to admit that analysis was another level to me. Of course the problem is I can't tell if it's valid or not, but it seemed really good. @Bus-Conductor what did you think?

I think this bit resonated with me:

As you’d expect from a team using these principles, they build up from deep with short passes from the centre-backs and pivots. It is the pivot’s job to create triangles and rhombuses, making it easy for Spurs to pass the ball around the opposition’s pressing lines and up the pitch.

A good structure in possession will allow the ball carrier to have immediate open options as soon as he receives the ball, meaning he can move the ball on more quickly, and make for a more effective and entertaining possession game.


And later in the piece:

Dembele and Dier aren’t highly intelligent as to when to get the ball into overloaded areas quickly and at times play the ball too slowly. After a left-back, I would say Pochettino should prioritise adding an elite pivot to his squad should he still be Tottenham manager going into next season.


Just to pick up on this point. It is why I have continually said I would like Bentaleb or Mason in the midfield if we are going to play Dier (or Dembele) rather than Dier and Dembele or Alli at all. I have continually made this similar point. About Dembele moving the ball too slowly and Dier's passing being very risk averse under the tight confines and pressure of Cm sometimes. About Mason and Bentaleb's ability to move the ball quicker and get it to AM's before the opposition are banked into two lines. Alli strengths are in his willingness to bomb forward and get ahead of the fulcrum striker. Not continually moving to make passing options for those at the back and middle of the pitch and continually recycling the ball effectively and efficiently.


He also highlights that despite being when of the possession leaders, with fluid attack, we are only 16th in terms of crossing. This is why I keep advocating Trippier over Walker for home or easier away games. He suggest we should prioritise a left back.

Another thing I'd pick up on is the bit about Dier filling in at RB, it does happen of course, but tactically I think what happens more than Dier filling in at right back is Alderweireld moves out and covers the RB (or the LCB moving to cover LB) and Dier drops back to become an auxiliary CB. IMO.

I quite liked the bit about how having ball playing CB's (especially when Vertonghen is there) creates more options than we would have if just playing double pivoting CM's, this is why I've always liked (decent) ball playing CB's, it's like you effectively have an extra player (or 2) on the pitch to the opposition and as the piece says, makes you less vulnerable to opposition pressing, because they know they have to press 6 players in their forward areas - we used to see the opposition press people other than Dawson, knowing if they can force the ball to him he will just hump it and we will turn over possession. CB's don't have to be Ferdinand, but as long as they are comfortable in possession and can defend as well, it's a vital component.

He also makes a fair point about how our pressing can lose it's structure for phases.

Let's flip that over for a moment.

Despite not moving the ball quick enough, he has been superb at winning the ball back, is a solid rock when on the ball, and drives our play into the final third better than any other player at the club.

He'a the very definition of the kind of player that does well in the middle of the pitch. We don't play him higher up because he offers very little by way of an attacking threat (and those quick passes you're talking about are exactly what is needed in the final third).

He'd do well in a more forward position, but not as well as he's currently being played in.

Disagree. You think it's quicker for Dembele to dribble his way past their CM's to get the ball forward or for Mason or Bentaleb to pass the ball past their CM's ?

I agree Dembele is very good defensively, very hard to knock of it, but we want to transition quickly, it's a vital part of the philosophy, which is why I've said either him or Dier, not both. Not most weeks anyway. And that article highlights similar flaws.

I think he is more useful higher up because he's tenacious, so can operate the forward press brilliantly, can help hold the ball up unlike the erratic other options like Alli, Son, Lamela and he's more threat dribbling at defenders i the final third than midfielders in the middle third.

I used to think he'd be better further forward, but when we're one win off the top I'm going to go with Pochettino on this one.

You have to consider the less measurable aspects such as the confidence he gives to our central players such as Dier. There aren't stats for inspiring confidence, yet you can be sure they have played a part.

Dembele's running on the ball makes space, and then people are drawn in for the challenge, bounce off him and lose position - and you wouldn't get that from the other two in the same way. For our title push, Dembele's physicality is going to be so important for the scraps. Ultimately I guess the proof of the pudding is in the results though... which seem to be rather good for the Dier/Dembele axis. 6 wins on the spin.. chance to get to 7 tomorrow for first time in a half century?

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

P.s. to stay on topic, Leicester fans seem like tits

edit for pedant's corner I know Dembele has only played for 5 of those 6 wins and may not contribute to a future 7th tomorrow..

I don't think this team gets it's confidence from any one player, We played well at there start of the season and in recent games without Dembele.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
I think this bit resonated with me:

As you’d expect from a team using these principles, they build up from deep with short passes from the centre-backs and pivots. It is the pivot’s job to create triangles and rhombuses, making it easy for Spurs to pass the ball around the opposition’s pressing lines and up the pitch.

A good structure in possession will allow the ball carrier to have immediate open options as soon as he receives the ball, meaning he can move the ball on more quickly, and make for a more effective and entertaining possession game.


And later in the piece:

Dembele and Dier aren’t highly intelligent as to when to get the ball into overloaded areas quickly and at times play the ball too slowly. After a left-back, I would say Pochettino should prioritise adding an elite pivot to his squad should he still be Tottenham manager going into next season.


Just to pick up on this point. It is why I have continually said I would like Bentaleb or Mason in the midfield if we are going to play Dier (or Dembele) rather than Dier and Dembele or Alli at all. I have continually made this similar point. About Dembele moving the ball too slowly and Dier's passing being very risk averse under the tight confines and pressure of Cm sometimes. About Mason and Bentaleb's ability to move the ball quicker and get it to AM's before the opposition are banked into two lines. Alli strengths are in his willingness to bomb forward and get ahead of the fulcrum striker. Not continually moving to make passing options for those at the back and middle of the pitch and continually recycling the ball effectively and efficiently.

Yes, it's definitely a trade-off with Dier at anchor, but he gives us such a robust platform, and is superb at not falling into the trap of thinking he's better at his weak points than he actually is, that for me he's one of the first names on the team-sheet at the moment.

To make that judgement though, you have to first look at the alternatives, and I'm afraid Bentaleb fir me, whatever else his strong points are (and there are plenty) is not a viable replacement in our system. He would suit a double pivot. But even in that position he's not at the same level as the rest of team at the moment. Unfortunately he just seems to suffer a brain fart every game. Plus he's not strong enough off the ball. Plus I don;t find him more progressive with the ball than Dier even. He's young (so is Dier), so can improve, and with Poch as his coach he has every chance to, but he also needs to seize his opportunities when they come otherwise they're going to remain sporadic.

So with Bentaleb, he's not the right player for our system, and not good enough / developed enough / in enough form to justify switching to the double pivot, exccept when the opponents and the rigours of the season justify it.

Mason/Dembele is a different story though. I think they offer different qualities and Poch will see them very much as alternative weapons in his locker, rather than a question of quality or form. I can see what Dembele brings to the side, and for me he's been outstanding this season, but Mason offers something different and I am happy for him to play in his stead. In both cases though I'd usually partner them with Dier.

As the german guy says though, the Dier position is one we need to look to bring competition/options to though. I don't think the player exists within the squad to do it (though I guess there could be a kid coming through?) so we need to find a young gun to come in and challenge. Failing that Bentaleb will have to show that he can play the role with the same discipline that Dier does.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Yes, it's definitely a trade-off with Dier at anchor, but he gives us such a robust platform, and is superb at not falling into the trap of thinking he's better at his weak points than he actually is, that for me he's one of the first names on the team-sheet at the moment.

To make that judgement though, you have to first look at the alternatives, and I'm afraid Bentaleb fir me, whatever else his strong points are (and there are plenty) is not a viable replacement in our system. He would suit a double pivot. But even in that position he's not at the same level as the rest of team at the moment. Unfortunately he just seems to suffer a brain fart every game. Plus he's not strong enough off the ball. Plus I don;t find him more progressive with the ball than Dier even. He's young (so is Dier), so can improve, and with Poch as his coach he has every chance to, but he also needs to seize his opportunities when they come otherwise they're going to remain sporadic.

So with Bentaleb, he's not the right player for our system, and not good enough / developed enough / in enough form to justify switching to the double pivot, exccept when the opponents and the rigours of the season justify it.

Mason/Dembele is a different story though. I think they offer different qualities and Poch will see them very much as alternative weapons in his locker, rather than a question of quality or form. I can see what Dembele brings to the side, and for me he's been outstanding this season, but Mason offers something different and I am happy for him to play in his stead. In both cases though I'd usually partner them with Dier.

As the german guy says though, the Dier position is one we need to look to bring competition/options to though. I don't think the player exists within the squad to do it (though I guess there could be a kid coming through?) so we need to find a young gun to come in and challenge. Failing that Bentaleb will have to show that he can play the role with the same discipline that Dier does.


First up Sloth, you've got to stop with the "brain fart a game" nonsense about Bentaleb. In his fledgling career with us so far he's made no more terrible errors than Dier has or that Dembele was caught dawdling on the ball in his first couple of seasons. And he's cost us no more goals than either of those two. And he gets through more ball than either of those two (or did last season in a worse set up) and gives it away no more, despite passing it forwards more, thus being more vertical and incisive with his passing.

In the whole of last season he was one of our most consistent and reliable performers, lets try not to forget that because he had a mare on the opening day of this season. To say he's not good enough or right for the system when he did so well, aged 20, in his first season in a transitional side that wasn't always cohesive or coherent around him is completely wrong.

Bentaleb proved last year he is perfect for our system. We still haven't played better games as a team than the ones we played last season against Arsenal for example, with Bentaleb.

But I think to see the best of Bentaleb he needs to be paired with a more disciplined player, like Dier, in the same way that Schniederlin was paired with Wanyama at Southampton. Personally I think to achieve the defensive/offensive balance our two best options are to pair Dier/Bentaleb or Mason/Dembele. Nice right/left and defence/offence balances, better blend of skills. IMO.

The fact that some random tactical analyst has picked up on a couple of points I've made repeatedly suggests I'm not barking mad for raising them I think

As you’d expect from a team using these principles, they build up from deep with short passes from the centre-backs and pivots. It is the pivot’s job to create triangles and rhombuses, making it easy for Spurs to pass the ball around the opposition’s pressing lines and up the pitch.

Dembele and Dier aren’t highly intelligent as to when to get the ball into overloaded areas quickly and at times play the ball too slowly. After a left-back, I would say Pochettino should prioritise adding an elite pivot to his squad should he still be Tottenham manager going into next season.

This is almost word for word things I have said previously about having players like Bentaleb and Mason (and Carroll) in the side if we play Dier or Dembele. There are phases of games where Dier just shells and shrinks back into the defensive line almost and we lose the ability to retain the ball. And both Mason and particularly Bentaleb never stop looking for the ball, they both pass the ball under pressure and forwards more than Dier and Dembele. And get the ball to the AM's into better areas and better situations quicker than Dier and Dembele do.


There's a temptation to react this as if I'm saying Dier and Dembele are shit together and my suggestion is brilliant. Or that because we are doing very well, we can't do even better.

The truth is we are talking margins. We are talking choosing between good options and perhaps, marginally better options. IMO. I'm not vexed if Dier and Dembele play, I just think we have better balanced options.
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
@Bus-Conductor - The thing is, BC, I agree with you in general principle - the pivot is very important in Poch's set-up, as is quick vertical passing when the ball is won, etc. But, and there usually is a but - this squad is at a particular time and place in regard to maturity and development. I'm not anti-Mason or anti-Bentaleb. On the contrary, I believe they are fantastic squad options for us, and will improve, especially Bentaleb. And anyone who criticises Mason needs to remember that it was him, bravely and at the cost of an injury, who got our season rolling at Sunderland. It is just that last night, against the Spammer and on that pitch, I think our chances would have multiplied significantly with Dembélé on the pitch- even at the expense of a more rapid attack. I know you aren't saying him and Dier are shit together or that you absolutely cannot abide seeing them paired together, but I don't believe the alternatives are quite strong, disciplined and plain unflappable just yet. I do hope they will become so, especially Bentaleb. But we just ain't there yet IMHO.
 
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