Ratings vs Everton

THFCSPURS19 said:

1. Son and Chadli have done absolutely nothing to start over Lamela in the PL at this moment in time. Especially the latter.
2. Lamela was MOTM when we beat City 4-1, and played when we completely dominated Arsenal for 75 minutes- our 'best performance' is completely subjective.
3. You say it was a difficult game for any subs to come on and make a difference, but that's literally what Besic and Deulofeu did.

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Wheeler Dealer said:

Be careful not to criticise Son, as there are a few on this forum think he's World Class...

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Bus-Conductor said:

Of our front 6 players, no-one gave it away less than Carroll (88.8%), despite making 80 passes, nearly 30 more than the next nearest, Eriksen (50) who had the second highest completion rate (84.6), Baring in mind Carroll was on the pitch 36 minutes more than Eriksen though, so Eriksen would certainly have a comparable per minute ration I think.

When we were dominating the game it was these two at the hub of everything, despite Pochettino's rather poor tactical set up of Lamela left and Eriksen right. Here's a graphic of Eriksen's passing which helps shows his movement and influence I think:

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Mr Pink said:

Totally agree that Eriksen and Carroll were our best players in the first half, they were both superb and contributed hugely to our first half dominance/excellence.

On the set up for a minute, do we think Poch swapped Lamela and Eriksen because he saw Coleman more of a threat than Baines and wanted Lamela's superior work rate to nullify and counter Coleman's attacking threat?

Ironically though it was Baines who out muscled Eriksen to flick the ball back for Cleverly to deliver for Lukaku for the goal.

Eriksen had a great first half though and a lot happened, in terms of the goal, after he lost that dual with Baines to be fair.

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Mr Pink said:

Totally agree that Eriksen and Carroll were our best players in the first half, they were both superb and contributed hugely to our first half dominance/excellence.

On the set up for a minute, do we think Poch swapped Lamela and Eriksen because he saw Coleman more of a threat than Baines and wanted Lamela's superior work rate to nullify and counter Coleman's attacking threat?

Ironically though it was Baines who out muscled Eriksen to flick the ball back for Cleverly to deliver for Lukaku for the goal.

Eriksen had a great first half though and a lot happened, in terms of the goal, after he lost that dual with Baines to be fair.

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viktorviktor said:

Congratulations SpursCommunity, you're in the news (in Denmark): http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/fodbol...iksen-deler-vandene-han-pisser-mig-af/5894069

Translation:
Misunderstood Eriksen divides: "He's pissing me off"

Quotes by @mano-obe @EnfieldYiddo and @idontgetit

Basically the danish version of the Daily Mail.

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Bus-Conductor said:

He did the same against watford didn't he ? As you can see from the pass matrix though, what we end up with is a kind of lopsided 4222 as Alli virtually plays as an auxiliary striker. Neither Eriksen or Lamela are able to cut in and shoot on their stronger foot because they are not playing as inverted AM's. I think as a result Eriksen wasn't great against Watford and Lamela probably had one of his worst games of the season yesterday offensively and we as a team actually created very little of tangible creative quality.

I think we haven't had the balance quite right in the CM2 and AM3 for much of the season and I understand why to an extent. Like season Chadli kept producing, but what he did the rest of the time was not great, it created a dilemma for Pochettino. Likewise I think everyone's getting sucked in to some of the hype around Alli a bit too much because of his goals and his bravado, and are completely ignoring everything else, but it isn't as clear cut as with Chadli because he has more character, is harder working without the ball etc. But here are some stats.

Son actually has a better goals, key passes, chances created rate and an identical assist rate per 90 minutes on the pitch than Alli. And he's been used in fits and starts, unlike Alli who's been played consistently.

Lamela has scored 0.12 less goals per 90, but very marginally assists more, makes nearly double the key passes and chances created per game as Alli.

Eriksen has only 2 goals to Alli's 5, but considering he's been played out of position and Alli virtually as an auxiliary striker many games not totally surprising, but he's assisted double and made more than double the key passes and more than double the chances created.

Yeah, yeah, yeah BC, stats don't tell the whole story blah blah, but they contribute something to the argument and are neutral and hype free. And there is a fuck load of hype around Alli right now.

If Alli keeps scoring then I guess Poch will just keep playing him like he did Chadli last season despite the fact that we could see he was counter intuitive to a system that relies on pressing from the front. And It's not quite the same compromise with Alli because the lad does get stuck in even though he's not the most dynamic . But there is some compromise there IMO, we retain the ball less efficiently in the final third and are less creative with Alli up there virtually playing a 442 next to Kane, they are too similar in some respects, big lads who don't always get there heads up quick enough and bumble around with the ball in tight areas. One of those in the D is OK, two is one too many IMO. It will be interesting to see what happens if Alli stops scoring. Will Poch have the courage to drop England's new golden boy ?

The answer for me would be to try a 433, but we've been saying that for the last 5 years and that's about as likely as Lennon scoring a top corner screamer….

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Bus-Conductor said:

Of our front 6 players, no-one gave it away less than Carroll (88.8%), despite making 80 passes, nearly 30 more than the next nearest, Eriksen (50) who had the second highest completion rate (84.6), Baring in mind Carroll was on the pitch 36 minutes more than Eriksen though, so Eriksen would certainly have a comparable per minute ration I think.

When we were dominating the game it was these two at the hub of everything, despite Pochettino's rather poor tactical set up of Lamela left and Eriksen right. Here's a graphic of Eriksen's passing which helps shows his movement and influence I think:

View attachment 21367

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jezz said:

Davis

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Mr Pink said:

Some interesting stats and points you make in there BC. But as you've alluded to Alli definitely has more edge and appetite to compete off the ball than say someone like Chadli. You think of Alli's determination to win the ball back for Kane's goal against Southampton and Lamela's against Watford - those goals simply don't happen without his determination.

There are times that Alli does hold on to the ball too long, or his touch lets him down (want an exquisite one for his goal yesterday mind) or he misses the chance to produce an incisive pass because he hasn't reacted/decided quick enough. But these are things that will improve with more game time and more acquired experience.

So whilst the balance doesn't always appear perfect I think the trade off is more than worth persevering with, for two reasons;

1) I don't see his goals and end product decreasing, to the contrary, it will improve gradually is my guess.
2) I think by continuing to play him his weaknesses will be worked on, Poch has already demonstrated that he can work with and improve individuals quite considerably.

The last point, if it plays out that way, will only serve to refine our balance and team shape as a result, and for the better.

I loved the way he chested the ball into Kane's path yesterday as well, thought that was a touch of class.

For me he's very talented but still pretty raw but his appetite to compete offsets the latter quite considerably. That mentality is something we've missed for years. You don't need everyone in your side to exude such traits but having one individual who's got a bit of snarl about them is vastly underestimated IMO. Mason has it as well to a lesser extent.

I do accept your point that sometimes the balance doesn't feel quite right but we're growing under Pochettino and when you see first half's like we did yesterday against Everton its hard not to get excited. I don't recall any of the other big sides going there in recent years and controlling to such an extent. Maybe Chelsea last season but even that ended up a crazy scoreline IIRC.

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Bus-Conductor said:

All good, fair points that I accept and have tried repeatedly to acknowledge, but it seems no matter how many times I say or list the good qualities I like in Alli it has become "another one of BC's petty dislikes". I have repeatedly said that this is a really tough conundrum for me because as I said, even in the post you are quoting, it isn't the same as the Chadli scenario because he does get stuck in and does try to press and I acknowledge that at 19 he's got a shitload of potential to learn and improve facets of his game and has the right attitude to do so. I really can't ever see Alli playing as a "10" his attributes aren't what I see in a 10. He's like Fellani up there. Can be, and has been, effective but not what I want from a 10.

For me it's a different compromise and one more about getting the blend and balance better and more complimentary. A good conundrum rather than a bad one.

To accomodate Alli I think we'd need to play something like:

Alli Dier/Mason Bentaleb/Carroll/Onomah

Lamela Kane Eriksen/Son/Pritchard

Suggesting dropping Alli right now is heresy and most of SC would have me hung drawn a quartered but if we are not going to play 433 (and I doubt we are) I'd love to see a front 6 of for a couple of games:

Dier/Mason Bentaleb/Carroll

Lamela/Dembele Eriksen/Onomah Son/Pritchard (when fit)

Kane
​

I think that is a more diverse group, with a more varied range of skills. I think Eriksen was having his best season until Pochettino started fucking around and moving him left and right to accommodate Alli. As was Lamela, he'd started to score goals as well. And I think Son (and the stats back it up) has at least as many goals in him as Alli. But with that front four you have variety, tricky dribbling and craft of Lamela, the metronomity and composure of Eriksen, the pace and directness of Son and the all-round uberness of Kane leading the charge. Alli's 19, he's got bags of time to establish himself, I don't think he deserves to be undroppable based on some of his poor performances - that I think goals have disguised and distracted attention from.

I could really see him playing right in a 433. I think that would suit his skill set more. Do a bit of everything in CM but with less need to be as dynamic as in a CM2, more of a bomb up and down remit from hard to pick up deeper positions. That would create another dilemma in who do you drop from the AM3.

Toughie.

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viktorviktor said:

Congratulations SpursCommunity, you're in the news (in Denmark): http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/fodbol...iksen-deler-vandene-han-pisser-mig-af/5894069

Translation:
Misunderstood Eriksen divides: "He's pissing me off"

Quotes by @mano-obe @EnfieldYiddo and @idontgetit

Basically the danish version of the Daily Mail.

Click to expand...

viktorviktor said:

Congratulations SpursCommunity, you're in the news (in Denmark): http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/fodbol...iksen-deler-vandene-han-pisser-mig-af/5894069

Translation:
Misunderstood Eriksen divides: "He's pissing me off"

Quotes by @mano-obe @EnfieldYiddo and @idontgetit

Basically the danish version of the Daily Mail.

Click to expand...

Bus-Conductor said:

All good, fair points that I accept and have tried repeatedly to acknowledge, but it seems no matter how many times I say or list the good qualities I like in Alli it has become "another one of BC's petty dislikes". I have repeatedly said that this is a really tough conundrum for me because as I said, even in the post you are quoting, it isn't the same as the Chadli scenario because he does get stuck in and does try to press and I acknowledge that at 19 he's got a shitload of potential to learn and improve facets of his game and has the right attitude to do so. I really can't ever see Alli playing as a "10" his attributes aren't what I see in a 10. He's like Fellani up there. Can be, and has been, effective but not what I want from a 10.

For me it's a different compromise and one more about getting the blend and balance better and more complimentary. A good conundrum rather than a bad one.

To accomodate Alli I think we'd need to play something like:

Alli Dier/Mason Bentaleb/Carroll/Onomah

Lamela Kane Eriksen/Son/Pritchard

Suggesting dropping Alli right now is heresy and most of SC would have me hung drawn a quartered but if we are not going to play 433 (and I doubt we are) I'd love to see a front 6 of for a couple of games:

Dier/Mason Bentaleb/Carroll

Lamela/Dembele Eriksen/Onomah Son/Pritchard (when fit)

Kane
​

I think that is a more diverse group, with a more varied range of skills. I think Eriksen was having his best season until Pochettino started fucking around and moving him left and right to accommodate Alli. As was Lamela, he'd started to score goals as well. And I think Son (and the stats back it up) has at least as many goals in him as Alli. But with that front four you have variety, tricky dribbling and craft of Lamela, the metronomity and composure of Eriksen, the pace and directness of Son and the all-round uberness of Kane leading the charge. Alli's 19, he's got bags of time to establish himself, I don't think he deserves to be undroppable based on some of his poor performances - that I think goals have disguised and distracted attention from.

I could really see him playing right in a 433. I think that would suit his skill set more. Do a bit of everything in CM but with less need to be as dynamic as in a CM2, more of a bomb up and down remit from hard to pick up deeper positions. That would create another dilemma in who do you drop from the AM3.

Toughie.

Click to expand...