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Team v Liverpool

Hoddtastic72

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2011
1,338
1,846
Who thinks it's gonna be easy? :confused:
I'm really not that worried about pool. Certainly no more than any team we face. They are not that great. Pretty average from the games I've seen them play. They've had a 'mini' revival, only because the teams they play are so bad.

Surely Liverpool will have the same worries as well though? They have just as many internationals as we do and have more injury worries. We don't need our absolute strongest 11 to beat them. They should be more worried about us, then us them.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
the things that might go in our favour for this match is Klopp I doubt will risk players that are returning from injury with strains. Thursday is their biggest game left of the season, and will want their strongest XI available for that. also the players know this too so might not push themselves as much as they should.

yes mathematically they could grab a CL spot via the league, but even Klopp knows they are not strong enough to win over 75% of their remaining League matches, and that would only be good enough if the 5 teams above them all lost enough points, even with 1 or 2 games in hand over those the way their season has gone they won't win 6+ of their remaining games
 

Thfc15

Member
Aug 16, 2015
39
97
Lloris

Walker Alderweireld Wimmer Rose

Alli Dier Dembele

Lamela Kane Eriksen​

So even when you finally post the same team as everyone else you still have to make it different by laying it out as a 4-3-3 ;)

Joking aside it'll hopefully be that team but in a 4-2-3-1. Pretty sure weve played 4-2-3-1 in every game bar Watford away in the league.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
just seen the ref for the game John (ucking useless) Moss so far this season refereed 2 games away to Man U, and away to WBA. only hope is our points total improved each game (I know this should most probably go into match thread, but if I post in that thread its usually after, only time ive ever gone in there before a game was WHU):(
 
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sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
Lloris

Walker Alderweireld Wimmer Rose

Alli Dier Dembele

Lamela Kane Eriksen​

won't matter if you tell them play 433 or 4231 that's the same team either way and they'll play the fluid way they have been. Dier will drop deep, Alli would support Kane and Dembele fill in the gaps.

Put another way, do you mind telling me how you think this team, laid out like you have it, would, in reality, play differently to this team:

LLoris
Walker Toby Wim Rose
Dier Dembele
Lamela Alli Eriksen
Kane​
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
won't matter if you tell them play 433 or 4231 that's the same team either way and they'll play the fluid way they have been. Dier will drop deep, Alli would support Kane and Dembele fill in the gaps.

Put another way, do you mind telling me how you think this team, laid out like you have it, would, in reality, play differently to this team:

LLoris
Walker Toby Wim Rose
Dier Dembele
Lamela Alli Eriksen
Kane​

did you watch the england/germany game sloth?

if so, did you think alli's performance was notably different to the ones he puts in for us?
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
won't matter if you tell them play 433 or 4231 that's the same team either way and they'll play the fluid way they have been. Dier will drop deep, Alli would support Kane and Dembele fill in the gaps.

Put another way, do you mind telling me how you think this team, laid out like you have it, would, in reality, play differently to this team:

LLoris
Walker Toby Wim Rose
Dier Dembele
Lamela Alli Eriksen
Kane​


See @Blake Griffin 's post above.

Formations can/do change the default dynamics and roles. There is always 10 outfield players, the game is always fluid, but are you really telling me you don't understand the concept of having the same 10 outfield players applied slightly differently tactically - given slightly different instructions and remits - and the role that nuanced changes in default formation play in those differences ?

You've been whining on all season about me saying that I think we will only truly see the best of Alli in a 433. Well last week you saw why I believe that to be so.

I think his qualities and attributes suit that role. He's not a 60 pass a game, metronomic, side to side, box to box dynamo that a CM2 often needs to be, he can tackle and has a good engine but he's not quite adroit enough to cover lots of multidirectional ground quickly (few are - which is why CM2 is such a hard position to look good in), again as a CM2 often needs to do. He's not a great dribbler as a wide forward/wide AM needs to be sometimes, he's not a forward playmaker like a Totti, in pressured, confined and compressed spaces in the final third his touch can sometimes be rattled into bumbleness when a forward playmaker needs to be like a fly who's brain works calmly while all around is moving at 100mph.

But in a midfield three his strengths are played to. He will win and pass the ball with some purpose and progression, he is tenacious, he has a good engine but it's better vertically than 360%,. As part of a CM3 he's not required to spend all of his time fetching and carrying and doing the mundane that CM2's have to do more of (again, why it's hard for them to look great much of the time), but he can do enough of it to support the other two CM's - and cover when one of the other CM's gets forward, but can also bomb on, support the attack, get into the box from deeper, harder to pick up positions, without leaving a gaping hole in the CM behind him, because there are two others who can adjust and cover.

I also think the emergence of Dier is perfect for a 433. The thought of having players like Alli, Bentaleb, Mason and especially Onomah (who like Alli is tailor made for a 433) playing either side of him is mouthwatering IMO.
 

THFCSPURS19

The Speaker of the Transfer Rumours Forum
Jan 6, 2013
37,886
130,485
See @Blake Griffin 's post above.

Formations can/do change the default dynamics and roles. There is always 10 outfield players, the game is always fluid, but are you really telling me you don't understand the concept of having the same 10 outfield players applied slightly differently tactically - given slightly different instructions and remits - and the role that nuanced changes in default formation play in those differences ?

You've been whining on all season about me saying that I think we will only truly see the best of Alli in a 433. Well last week you saw why I believe that to be so.

I think his qualities and attributes suit that role. He's not a 60 pass a game, metronomic, side to side, box to box dynamo that a CM2 often needs to be, he can tackle and has a good engine but he's not quite adroit enough to cover lots of multidirectional ground quickly (few are - which is why CM2 is such a hard position to look good in), again as a CM2 often needs to do. He's not a great dribbler as a wide forward/wide AM needs to be sometimes, he's not a forward playmaker like a Totti, in pressured, confined and compressed spaces in the final third his touch can sometimes be rattled into bumbleness when a forward playmaker needs to be like a fly who's brain works calmly while all around is moving at 100mph.

But in a midfield three his strengths are played to. He will win and pass the ball with some purpose and progression, he is tenacious, he has a good engine but it's better vertically than 360%,. As part of a CM3 he's not required to spend all of his time fetching and carrying and doing the mundane that CM2's have to do more of (again, why it's hard for them to look great much of the time), but he can do enough of it to support the other two CM's - and cover when one of the other CM's gets forward, but can also bomb on, support the attack, get into the box from deeper, harder to pick up positions, without leaving a gaping hole in the CM behind him, because there are two others who can adjust and cover.

I also think the emergence of Dier is perfect for a 433. The thought of having players like Alli, Bentaleb, Mason and especially Onomah (who like Alli is tailor made for a 433) playing either side of him is mouthwatering IMO.
Still think your assessment of Alli is too harsh. It basically amounts to 'he can tackle and run around a bit'.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Still think your assessment of Alli is too harsh. It basically amounts to 'he can tackle and run around a bit'.

That's not All that I said. And elsewhere I have said more. He has real pitch presence and timing, the ability to effect games and impact them and produce moments that change games. He has character and confidence and produces moments of real quality and inspiration.

But from the get go, if you remember, I questioned what his best role would be in our 4231. I think he justifies his place right now, even though he's not great always in the 4231 format, because of what he brings and the what others we have don't but I think that performance for England last week in the cm3 was by far the best performance, most complete performance he's put in this year in any game. His influence was multi dimensional and for 90 minutes.
 
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PMS

dlya pobedy
Apr 14, 2013
483
803
Not a particularly great time to play us if you're another club and its not a particularly great time to watch us if you're an emotional wreck of a Spurs fan dreaming of the title.

Hopefully Diers admission that the collective incetive is to win the league we will see the lads go up a couple of notches in our remaining matches.

Starting with a win at Anfield.

COYS!!
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
See @Blake Griffin 's post above.

Formations can/do change the default dynamics and roles. There is always 10 outfield players, the game is always fluid, but are you really telling me you don't understand the concept of having the same 10 outfield players applied slightly differently tactically - given slightly different instructions and remits - and the role that nuanced changes in default formation play in those differences ?

You've been whining on all season about me saying that I think we will only truly see the best of Alli in a 433. Well last week you saw why I believe that to be so.

I think his qualities and attributes suit that role. He's not a 60 pass a game, metronomic, side to side, box to box dynamo that a CM2 often needs to be, he can tackle and has a good engine but he's not quite adroit enough to cover lots of multidirectional ground quickly (few are - which is why CM2 is such a hard position to look good in), again as a CM2 often needs to do. He's not a great dribbler as a wide forward/wide AM needs to be sometimes, he's not a forward playmaker like a Totti, in pressured, confined and compressed spaces in the final third his touch can sometimes be rattled into bumbleness when a forward playmaker needs to be like a fly who's brain works calmly while all around is moving at 100mph.

But in a midfield three his strengths are played to. He will win and pass the ball with some purpose and progression, he is tenacious, he has a good engine but it's better vertically than 360%,. As part of a CM3 he's not required to spend all of his time fetching and carrying and doing the mundane that CM2's have to do more of (again, why it's hard for them to look great much of the time), but he can do enough of it to support the other two CM's - and cover when one of the other CM's gets forward, but can also bomb on, support the attack, get into the box from deeper, harder to pick up positions, without leaving a gaping hole in the CM behind him, because there are two others who can adjust and cover.

I also think the emergence of Dier is perfect for a 433. The thought of having players like Alli, Bentaleb, Mason and especially Onomah (who like Alli is tailor made for a 433) playing either side of him is mouthwatering IMO.

So what you're saying is that Dier plays five yards further forward and gets forward a bit more, while Dembele plays the same way he always does, and Alli plays five yards further back. The full-backs play a bit more withdrawn because they haven't for Dier dropping in to make a CB 3 so much, and they do all this because they remember what Poch told them?

Or do you think that given they have a natural understanding and rhythm by now Dier will tend to sit in, Alli tend to get forward, the FBs will tend to play advanced and Demebele will play the same way?

To me the suggestion is text-book 'text-book tactics' rather than 'what really fucking happens tactics'.

And apart from all that it's a pointless point.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
So what you're saying is that Dier plays five yards further forward and gets forward a bit more, while Dembele plays the same way he always does, and Alli plays five yards further back. The full-backs play a bit more withdrawn because they haven't for Dier dropping in to make a CB 3 so much, and they do all this because they remember what Poch told them?

Or do you think that given they have a natural understanding and rhythm by now Dier will tend to sit in, Alli tend to get forward, the FBs will tend to play advanced and Demebele will play the same way?

To me the suggestion is text-book 'text-book tactics' rather than 'what really fucking happens tactics'.

And apart from all that it's a pointless point.


Why don't you answer @Blake Griffin (and my) question to you? Do you think Alli has played a better all round 90 minute game than the one he did - playing in a CM3 - for England in midweek. Did you just dismiss this as a coincidence or did you think it through and think his performance was affected by the slightly different remit and positioning that playing in the 433 forced upon him.

Is it that you don't understand that formation shape can change tactical application or is it that you understand it can but don't understand this particular change of tactical application? genuine question, if you tell me I can answer accordingly?
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
@sloth
And for the record, if all are fit, I wouldn't have Dembele in the CM3 every week, I'd have Bentaleb, because with Dier in a more disciplined central role we could afford to have two more dynamic players pivoting either side - and both Bentaleb and Alli can get up and down and tackle, but they also move the ball quicker than Dembele. And I think you can sacrifice some of Dembele's tenacity required when you only have two CM's for the slightly less tenacious but numerical superiority of having three CM's all of whom will work hard and tackle (if a bit less than Dembele).

Eventually I hope (and think) Onomah will also be very strong candidate if we were playing a 433 format. But you can also play Mason because his game is very similar to Alli's, tenacious, good engine, good at getting forward. Carroll because playing in a 3 will allow his passing game to flourish whilst numerically compensating - with the pivoting application of a 3 - for his defensive frailties.

But I would very much consider playing Dembele in a more advanced position in place of Lamela sometimes, because Dembele also presses brilliantly, is more sure footed on the ball and great at dribbling at defenders, where I'd rather he did his dribbling.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
Why don't you answer @Blake Griffin (and my) question to you? Do you think Alli has played a better all round 90 minute game than the one he did - playing in a CM3 - for England in midweek. Did you just dismiss this as a coincidence or did you think it through and think his performance was affected by the slightly different remit and positioning that playing in the 433 forced upon him.

Is it that you don't understand that formation shape can change tactical application or is it that you understand it can but don't understand this particular change of tactical application? genuine question, if you tell me I can answer accordingly?

If you have "Dier in a more disciplined central role", for which I read sitting in, then I genuinely don't understand your point? You're just saying you want Alli and Bentaleb to swap attacking roles a bit more? Rather than Alli and Dembele? You want them to be equally attacking and defending as each other? Rather than mainly Alli attacking and mainly Dembele/Bentaleb a bit deeper? I don't get it, I honestly don't?
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
If you have "Dier in a more disciplined central role", for which I read sitting in, then I genuinely don't understand your point? You're just saying you want Alli and Bentaleb to swap attacking roles a bit more? Rather than Alli and Dembele? You want them to be equally attacking and defending as each other? Rather than mainly Alli attacking and mainly Dembele/Bentaleb a bit deeper? I don't get it, I honestly don't?

Lets start from the beginning:

Do you think Alli has played a better game than he played in England's CM3/433 last week ?
 

sim0n

King of Prussia
Jan 29, 2005
7,947
2,151
seems to be the best available 11,... one could debate Davies over Rose on the road here, but that is really tight. Team looks good and we have the far better talent on the pitch today. Let's see how Herr Klopp matches up with Poch, that might be l'pool's only advantage.

no disrespect meant at all, but I have been a second team Dortmund fan for a long time and he really can make teams perform out of nothing. He is truly a gifted managr with a track record of winning at the highest level with oil oligarchs funding FM type teams.
 
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