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SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

onthetwo

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2006
4,583
3,407
Not according to Poch, he has said 4141 (at least in theory) is how we will look to line up for the future.
Right....we wouldn't want the opposition to be in any doubt would we.
(Can i disagree with myself to save you the trouble?)
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Thought I’d put this in the existing tactics thread rather than start a new one.

So in recent weeks, in fact most of the season so far, we’ve seen a lot of comment about the failings of our attacking game at the moment. Last night it seemed to reach its peak. That we don’t create enough chances, get enough men forward, don’t play it forward and counter quick enough, don’t have enough pace, etc. etc. You’ve all seen these views by now. Some say its poor form, that injuries aren’t helping with the likes of Dembele and in particularly Kane missing so far this campaign. Some want change. Now I realise I’ve mentioned most of the common views above, but what do posters feel is actually wrong? And more importantly for this discussion how do we solve this, and evolve our attacking threat?

I think I’ll approach this by breaking football down to the simplest label – pass and move. In both aspects there are issues that I feel need ironing out.

You could argue that the man on the ball needs options, and you’d be right, but I’ll comment on passing first. With our passing I think too many of our players simply like taking too many touches of the ball, and we move it too slowly. Our best play, indeed the best football in general, is played at a minimum of touches, zipping it about at tempo moving the opposition, asking them questions, and with the best moves carving them open. I think we could aim to speed up even our initial/basic phases of possession. Even just zipping the ball about sideways at one or two touch is constantly making the opposition’s defensive structure move and making them concentrate, not allowing them the second or two to get set.

I think the movement, and structure/coordination of it, is what needs most work though. The old Bill Nicholson soundbite was ‘if you’re not in possession, get in position’ and football hasn’t changed, that still applies to this day. I don’t think the shape, whether it be 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 or whatever, is the issue here really, but there isn’t a balance for us though currently in my opinion, too many players do get in position, but its often the same one. Too many who want the ball to feet, or are attracted to the same small space around the ball, or will stay goal side of the ball with play in front of them rather than make the forward burst or play up against the defensive line and stretch the play.

It’s been more glaring with Janssen in the team, but through no fault of his own really. It’s just magnified what we were already quite weak at – he has his skillset and game which is as a focal point, it’s more imperative than ever that we get men up and around the striker and running off him. We have Son, and Alli more arriving late in the box, the rest are sporadic. You have to be varied, other midfielders picking the right moment to get in support or make the run ahead of the ball, or even the fullbacks. It can’t be the same two/three players every time, you have to work as a unit in everything you do on the pitch.

I’ve said it before but I also think we at times need a braver mentality. Playing the pass through a gap instead of the safe sideways one, taking the ball in a tight space instead of dropping 5-10 yards and taking it in your comfort zone, putting together possession in ‘the thick of it’ 20 yards from goal instead of 30-35 yards, gambling and making the run in behind instead of hanging off for the pass to feet. A bit more positive intent at times and indeed challenging ourselves. It isn’t easy, but we’ve maybe been a little too safe. It’s probably also fair to point out that there is the possibility that it could be down to a few players not being on top form at the same time, and so they default to safer options and play where they feel more comfortable, but it doesn’t help the team and I don’t think explains what we were already quite weak at.

I know many think it’s the solution, but I’m always loathe to just say we need to buy this, that and the other to solve problems. There’s an issue at right midfield/forward that probably needs to be resolved in the transfer market, but I think you can work with what we already have, it’s a case of striking the right balance and being a bit more harmonious in what we do as a unit. If players A and B are already in the vicinity of the ball for example then player C must be making a different run – probably up in support. Or if the striker has dropped deep to receive the ball we need someone else to fill the space vacated. Or if our right side has worked the overlap and a chance for the cross then the left side of the team needs to have matched this with their runs into positions to receive it. Little examples I’ve seen us guilty of in recent weeks (both ‘first’ and ‘reserve’ teams), all the existing squad are capable of rectifying. You don’t need outstanding pace and/or trickery and flair, pass and move and the right run and right pass will find the breakthrough. We just have to find a bit better level of understanding, balance, and fluidity, time to put in the hours on the training pitches…
 
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pablo73

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
3,978
13,596
It’s been more glaring with Janssen in the team, but through no fault of his own really. It’s just magnified what we were already quite weak at – he has his skillset and game which is as a focal point, it’s more imperative than ever that we get men up and around the striker and running off him. We have Son, and Alli more arriving late in the box, the rest are sporadic. You have to be varied, other midfielders picking the right moment to get in support or make the run ahead of the ball, or even the fullbacks. It can’t be the same two/three players every time, you have to work as a unit in everything you do on the pitch.

Great post, some really good points there. For me, this paragraph is the key, we don't have enough players making runs ahead of the ball. We also need players who will commit defenders, something we really lack at the moment.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Great post, some really good points there. For me, this paragraph is the key, we don't have enough players making runs ahead of the ball. We also need players who will commit defenders, something we really lack at the moment.

Yes as I said, as much as my first (and second, and...) instinct is always to look at what we already have at the club and improve what we have, I think we are currently missing that direct option who can commit players and just offer something different and its probably the next buy we have to make. For me it should be an option who can play as the right midfielder/forward as this is where we have issues. Son and Nkoudou are direct but much prefer the left, Lamela could be freed up to play centrally in a 4-1-4-1 and have healthy competition for the wide right role, Sissoko isn't a wide right player in my opinion... We could do with something different. A (much) better, hardworking Townsend-type basically.
 

C-oops

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2008
4,037
3,373
Thought I’d put this in the existing tactics thread rather than start a new one.

So in recent weeks, in fact most of the season so far, we’ve seen a lot of comment about the failings of our attacking game at the moment. Last night it seemed to reach its peak. That we don’t create enough chances, get enough men forward, don’t play it forward and counter quick enough, don’t have enough pace, etc. etc. You’ve all seen these views by now. Some say its poor form, that injuries aren’t helping with the likes of Dembele and in particularly Kane missing so far this campaign. Some want change. Now I realise I’ve mentioned most of the common views above, but what do posters feel is actually wrong? And more importantly for this discussion how do we solve this, and evolve our attacking threat?

I think I’ll approach this by breaking football down to the simplest label – pass and move. In both aspects there are issues that I feel need ironing out.

You could argue that the man on the ball needs options, and you’d be right, but I’ll comment on passing first. With our passing I think too many of our players simply like taking too many touches of the ball, and we move it too slowly. Our best play, indeed the best football in general, is played at a minimum of touches, zipping it about at tempo moving the opposition, asking them questions, and with the best moves carving them open. I think we could aim to speed up even our initial/basic phases of possession. Even just zipping the ball about sideways at one or two touch is constantly making the opposition’s defensive structure move and making them concentrate, not allowing them the second or two to get set.

I think the movement, and structure/coordination of it, is what needs most work though. The old Bill Nicholson soundbite was ‘if you’re not in possession, get in position’ and football hasn’t changed, that still applies to this day. I don’t think the shape, whether it be 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 or whatever, is the issue here really, but there isn’t a balance for us though currently in my opinion, too many players do get in position, but its often the same one. Too many who want the ball to feet, or are attracted to the same small space around the ball, or will stay goal side of the ball with play in front of them rather than make the forward burst or play up against the defensive line and stretch the play.

It’s been more glaring with Janssen in the team, but through no fault of his own really. It’s just magnified what we were already quite weak at – he has his skillset and game which is as a focal point, it’s more imperative than ever that we get men up and around the striker and running off him. We have Son, and Alli more arriving late in the box, the rest are sporadic. You have to be varied, other midfielders picking the right moment to get in support or make the run ahead of the ball, or even the fullbacks. It can’t be the same two/three players every time, you have to work as a unit in everything you do on the pitch.

I’ve said it before but I also think we at times need a braver mentality. Playing the pass through a gap instead of the safe sideways one, taking the ball in a tight space instead of dropping 5-10 yards and taking it in your comfort zone, putting together possession in ‘the thick of it’ 20 yards from goal instead of 30-35 yards, gambling and making the run in behind instead of hanging off for the pass to feet. A bit more positive intent at times and indeed challenging ourselves. It isn’t easy, but we’ve maybe been a little too safe. It’s probably also fair to point out that there is the possibility that it could be down to a few players not being on top form at the same time, and so they default to safer options and play where they feel more comfortable, but it doesn’t help the team and I don’t think explains what we were already quite weak at.

I know many think it’s the solution, but I’m always loathe to just say we need to buy this, that and the other to solve problems. There’s an issue at right midfield/forward that probably needs to be resolved in the transfer market, but I think you can work with what we already have, it’s a case of striking the right balance and being a bit more harmonious in what we do as a unit. If players A and B are already in the vicinity of the ball for example then player C must be making a different run – probably up in support. Or if the striker has dropped deep to receive the ball we need someone else to fill the space vacated. Or if our right side has worked the overlap and a chance for the cross then the left side of the team needs to have matched this with their runs into positions to receive it. Little examples I’ve seen us guilty of in recent weeks (both ‘first’ and ‘reserve’ teams), all the existing squad are capable of rectifying. You don’t need outstanding pace and/or trickery and flair, pass and move and the right run and right pass will find the breakthrough. We just have to find a bit better level of understanding, balance, and fluidity, time to put in the hours on the training pitches…

Can someone pass this on to Poch. He probably doesn't know any of this.
 

pablo73

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
3,978
13,596
Yes as I said, as much as my first (and second, and...) instinct is always to look at what we already have at the club and improve what we have, I think we are currently missing that direct option who can commit players and just offer something different and its probably the next buy we have to make. For me it should be an option who can play as the right midfielder/forward as this is where we have issues. Son and Nkoudou are direct but much prefer the left, Lamela could be freed up to play centrally in a 4-1-4-1 and have healthy competition for the wide right role, Sissoko isn't a wide right player in my opinion... We could do with something different. A (much) better, hardworking Townsend-type basically.

Yep, which makes it so frustrating that we spent £30 million on Sissoko when he clearly wasn't what we needed, or certainly not the most pressing need anyway. Having said that, if he can find some form, he at least does have the pace and power to bomb on. Whether he has the intelligence or ability to do anything once he gets there is an entirely different question.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
The thing is, we've had a spell of teams who have figured out the same things at the same time.

Shut down each wing simultaneously, and our entire game is strangled. If we look at City, each team had access to the wings, and we were consequently allowed to attack down the wings. In the later matches, all of WBA, Leverkusen, Bournemouth and Liverpool put some sort of extra effort into the wings. In the case of Bournemouth, they left the midfield almost vacant to lure us in and shut down the wings to an extremely effective degree. Our players were forced into a completely harmless area far away from any dangerous zones, resulting in loads of wasted long shots. Vs. WBA, the story is a little bit more nuanced, because when we did go down the flanks, they were in fact able to shift our play over to their least weak side, and removed Sissoko and Walker (who was integral to the attack early in the season) completely out of the match. Also vs. Bournemouth did our right wing become more shut down than our left wing.

Thus I surmise:
Teams have learned to put pressure on our wings.
To take Walker and whoever is on the right wing completely out (removing Walker as the attacking hero)
That our players can be lured into shifting the play straight into pressing traps (something that in fact should be OUR strength in doing towards the opposition if a 4141 is to be used most effectively.)

The solution to this for now seems to be to do more of the same to make the players more comfortable with moving intelligently around the pitch. This is the opposite of what I thought Pochettino's plan was based on the summer transfer. He bought all these physical beasts, so I assumed his plan was to have the team physically fight their way into victories. Like it or not, at least it looked like a plan. But the result now is that we are playing with a physically strong (superior, in some ways, team) and expect them to win by outsmarting the opposition. Well guess what, we are being outsmarted by WBA, Bournemouth and Liverpool's reserves.

For me, either Pochettino is asking the players to keep going at something he believes will be amazing once the players get the hang of it, or he needs to get back to the drawing board. We are being defeated or negated through simple use of smartness, and that is so frustrating.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I think it was crystal clear that for this side to evolve it desperately needed to up it's IQ, not it's pace or power. If that IQ came attached to a bit of pace then great, but as long as it wasn't attached to the butler in Arthur it wasn't vital. When you think of some of the players floating around the departure lounge this summer, to piss away 30m on a turbo charged bulldozer was criminal.

That aside, I've actually been been pretty happy with Poch and the team since he finally plucked up the bollocks to haul up the midfield anchor and change system. It's a work in progress - isn't it always - the same people still have the same strengths and weaknesses, but I like that we are at least less predictable now in terms of general tactical structure and application and I think we have found a way to get better out of players like Alli, Lamela and Son - Alli is not a CM2 and he's not a trequartista, Son and Lamela were bought because they'd excelled more as wide forwards, putting Eriksen into a more pivotal CM3 type role - the one he played at Ajax - means there is now a progressive conduit in that zone instead of two anchors, who were good defensively but stifled forward momentum in their own unique ways - Dembele because he likes to hold onto the ball until the pass has been triple checked by quality control, and Dier because he's not designed to be Iniesta.

I know - or I think I know - what @mpickard2087 is getting at, or for my part any way, what I see that drives me nuts sometimes is players moving into positions and the ball needs to be played in that instant, and it is playable, but too many times that ball never gets played, it's one of the reasons I wanted us to spend money on one of the better quality AM's knocking around in the summer or one of the CM's like Tolisso, players who might play that ball when it needs to be played. But I live in hope that the new system may at least facilitate this a little better.
 

Krafty

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2004
4,768
2,099
I sometimes wonder if teams that play like us (lots of pressing, energy, and intricate passing) focuses too much in training on small pitch keep ball exercises.

Apart from the full backs, everyone else seems to get attracted to the ball, we get really narrow and congested, the striker gets isolated and in any one moment you can spot at least one player who is too deep/close to the man in possession and simply getting in the way
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Interesting read here on our passing style.

Also interesting that Toby is our most direct player.

https://medium.com/football-crunching/how-does-spurs-play-106e731079a8#.prufjixo7


One thing that leaps out is Eriksen's role in all facets of our overall game play, making the biggest contribution in Wing Play (by 16%), Direct Play and Centre Play (by 15%) and 2nd in set pieces (by 3% to Lamela).

You can see why some of us value him so highly in this squad, take him off the pitch and you take away our biggest conduit to game play by miles.
 

DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
I know results haven't been great in terms of wins, but I have to say, I'm really enjoying Poch's tactical flexibility this season. Whereas last season he didn't really venture from 4231 and seemed very rigid about this. Now already he has played 4141, 343, 4312. He seems to be adjusting formation depending on which players are available and who the opposition is which is refreshing compared to previous seasons. I think the formation today suits us well. Walker and Rose provide the width as they do normally, a midfield 3 of Winks, Wanyama and Dembele is not too shabby. The main issue is Eriksen and Janssen are off form. I'd like to see this system with either Eriksen playing well or Lamela as the no 10 with Son upfront with Kane.

Either way, well done Poch I didn't know you had it in this in the locker!
 
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