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SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

night-watchman

SC Supporter
May 12, 2005
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Long post Warning. Apologies in advance if this is wildly off topic and in the wrong thread (I couldnt find one more relevant and this is a tactical thought, just 10 years too late).

Seeing as this seems as good-a time to reminisce as any with the Lane being demolished...thinking back on times gone-by

I was thinking the Jenas might be one of the biggest waste's of talent I have seen at the Lane - and I dont think it is at all his fault. He just strikes me as a classic example of a player who was a victim of bad management and mis-use.

His two best period's playing for us (imo) was in Lasgna-gate season as Left/Center midfield with Davids doing the dirty work and Carrick playing quarterback, and the second half of the '2 points from 8 games' season when he was playing as a Defensive Mid next to Palacios with Modric on the left and Bale overlapping from wingback. Two occasions where he had a very clear and defined role in the team.

So many times he was dumped in the centre with the brief of 'play the Gerrard role' without realising that a) Gerrard was surrounded by far better players and b) more than any other player I have seen, he needed a platform to flourish. There was a constant complaint that he needed a bit of a kick up the ass to take that step further - I just dont see it. Listening to him talk he seems like a dilligent, thoughtful and quite intelligent person and doesnt strike me as the sort of guy who lacks drive - in fact my memory of him is that he had an incredible engine.

There were constantly always rumours when he was here that Mourinho was after him, for a couple of seasons at Chelsea and then when Mourinho went to Inter and you can see why. Imo he would have been a complete revelation with savy management, and an even bigger shame is that he is SUCH a Poch sort of player. Dynamic, big engine, drives forward, good at a bit of everything - just came along ten years before his time.

And just rambling further (sorry for the long post) that Redknapp team in the second half of his first season was a really well drilled and underrated team we have put out in the last 10-15 years or so. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the team was something like:

Gomes
Corluka King Woodgate Bale
Palacios Jenas
-----------------------Modric
Lennon------------------------------------
Keane/Defoe/Bent/Pav
(Cant for the life of me remember the favoured strike combo)​

We were playing some really good stuff and oddly tactically savy considering it was managed by Redknapp. The only other glimpse we got of this type of football played under Redknapp was the AC Milan away game. Played with 2 DM's with Modric cutting inside and Bale overlapping. The only scarring result I seem to remember was a 5-2 thumping away at Utd, but other than that we were playing some really good stuff toward the end of that season. Just a forgotten bit of Spurs recent history sandwiched between a the Ramos era/2points8games and a 4th placed finish after it.

Ramble over.
 
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Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
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Long post Warning. Apologies in advance if this is wildly off topic and in the wrong thread (I couldnt find one more relevant and this is a tactical thought, just 10 years too late).

Seeing as this seems as good-a time to reminisce as any with the Lane being demolished...thinking back on times gone-by

I was thinking the Jenas might be one of the biggest waste's of talent I have seen at the Lane - and I dont think it is at all his fault. He just strikes me as a classic example of a player who was a victim of bad management and mis-use.

His two best period's playing for us (imo) was in Lasgna-gate season as Left/Center midfield with Davids doing the dirty work and Carrick playing quarterback, and the second half of the '2 points from 8 games' season when he was playing as a Defensive Mid next to Palacios with Modric on the left and Bale overlapping from wingback. Two occasions where he had a very clear and defined role in the team.

So many times he was dumped in the centre with the brief of 'play the Gerrard role' without realising that a) Gerrard was surrounded by far better players and b) more than any other player I have seen, he needed a platform to flourish. There was a constant complaint that he needed a bit of a kick up the ass to take that step further - I just dont see it. Listening to him talk he seems like a dilligent, thoughtful and quite intelligent person and doesnt strike me as the sort of guy who lacks drive - in fact my memory of him is that he had an incredible engine.

There were constantly always rumours when he was here that Mourinho was after him, for a couple of seasons at Chelsea and then when Mourinho went to Inter and you can see why. Imo he would have been a complete revelation with savy management, and an even bigger shame is that he is SUCH a Poch sort of player. Dynamic, big engine, drives forward, good at a bit of everything - just came along ten years before his time.

And just rambling further (sorry for the long post) that Redknapp team in the second half of his first season was a really well drilled and underrated team we have put out in the last 10-15 years or so. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the team was something like:

Gomes
Corluka King Woodgate Bale
Palacios Jenas
-----------------------Modric
Lennon------------------------------------
Keane/Defoe/Bent/Pav
(Cant for the life of me remember the favoured strike combo)​

We were playing some really good stuff and oddly tactically savy considering it was managed by Redknapp. The only other glimpse we got of this type of football played under Redknapp was the AC Milan away game. Played with 2 DM's with Modric cutting inside and Bale overlapping. The only scarring result I seem to remember was a 5-2 thumping away at Utd, but other than that we were playing some really good stuff toward the end of that season. Just a forgotten bit of Spurs recent history sandwiched between a the Ramos era/2points8games and a 4th placed finish after it.

Ramble over.



You had me with you up to the Redknapp Ramble Part2. Jenas was a very talented and consistent performer who was invariably misused, a victim of his own versatility and played in tactically old outmoded (mostly orthodox 442/4411) systems that were never going to get the best out of him. Despite this he was an incredibly consistent performer and rarely let us down and played an important role in our improvement as a team.

If you want a great example of a game that represents Jenas's time with us it's the Inter "Bale" away game. Because it was Jenas, running his arse off that set every single one of Bale's goals in motion, got us back into a game we were down a man, dead and buried, doing the work of two men as Huddlestone had ambled about doing fuck all for the first 45, but all anyone could talk about afterwards was Bale. And that pretty much sums up Jenas's career with us.
 

scat1620

L'espion mal fait
May 11, 2008
16,285
52,502
If you want a great example of a game that represents Jenas's time with us it's the Inter "Bale" away game. Because it was Jenas, running his arse off that set every single one of Bale's goals in motion, got us back into a game we were down a man, dead and buried, doing the work of two men as Huddlestone had ambled about doing fuck all for the first 45, but all anyone could talk about afterwards was Bale.
I mean, I'm all for the Jenas Appreciation Society stuff [genuinely], but talking about anything other than Bale after that Inter away game (and the home game) is the equivalent of pretending that overturning the fox hunting ban is a priority when there's a Brexit-inflected general election coming around the corner. [Will Mrs T. May please report to the sick burns ward immediately?]
 

night-watchman

SC Supporter
May 12, 2005
691
928
You had me with you up to the Redknapp Ramble Part2.

Well I'm hardly saying that a) I thought Redknapp was a brilliant manager (and think it was a fluke that he got my mentioned team playing as well as it did) or b) that it was tactically revolutionary...but we were playing some good stuff. Look at the results from the Arsenal home draw (8Feb 2009), when we started playing the Palacios/Jenas DM midfield duo onward. It was an oddly gritty, defensive team considering it was Redknapp managed that didnt concede many goals.

Screenshot of the period in question.

http://imgur.com/cJlbyVx
 

1971 Spur

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2012
157
595
Unsure if this is the best place to post but I read an article some time back which discussed Poch's use of boundary poles as "opponents" or positional guides for players during training sessions to define when/where to press. Meant to bookmark it but didn't and can't find it now. Anyone read anything similar and could point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Long thread about our tactic, if anyone need some summer reading.
https://lukeballsburgess.wordpress....o-tottenham-hotspur-201617-tactical-analysis/


Cheers for posting, I'm not sure but I have a feeling the blogger actually posts on here. I'm pretty sure we discussed his blog from last year in here this time last year (I just looked at it and ironically it was saying similar things to what I was saying last year and have repeated this year, about needed more alacrity from the CM area).
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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@LukeBB (is this you who's blog piece we are discussing ?) if so:

I completely disagree with your singling out of Wanyamain the section 2.1. A much, much more detrimental issue IMO, was the lack of intelligence shown by Dier in his movement, lack of willingness to receive the ball anywhere near a pressing opposition player, his inability to move past an opposition players with the ball (affecting his willingness to offer himself for a team mate looking for an out ball) and his reactive, rather than proactive, actions when the opposition have the ball.

I think this was evident after 15-16, but became glaringly evident last season and hit it's nadir with Dier's atrocious performances for England when not being aided by Pochettino's tactics and his other dynamic Spurs team mates (like Eriksen, Wanyama to name two).

That's as far as I have got so far...
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
@LukeBB

Section 2.4
Could you explain to me why Poch thinks tall CM's mean they can cover more ground ? I don't see the correlation here?

2.5
Agree with much of this, Wanyama and particularly Dier's inability to seek the ball or play it under pressure greatly played into Klopp's hands. And as you say, our failure to cope with an aggressive press was echoed throughout the season. (And one of the reasons I think we would both like to see a more dynamic footballing option in our CM).

3.1
Messi was always most effective as a wide right forward in Barca's 433, it was Martinez that moved him into the more central false 9 type role IIRC.

Like the latter half of the analysis in 3.1 though, some astute points about Janssen which I think many people failed to get all season:

The game against Middlesbrough also saw Vincent Janssen receive his 2nd start in the Premier League in place of the injured Kane and he did a fantastic job in this game of pinning his marker and holding up the ball for onrushing attackers. With Janssen rarely dropping off the Middlesbrough backline and doing his best to receive the ball with his back to goal as high up as possible, this created some larger temporary pockets of space around Janssen where players like Dele, Son and Eriksen could combine with him near the opposition goal. What we lost with Kane in finishing and long shot ability, Janssen made up for with a simpler hold up game which created several 1-2/up-back-through opportunities.

And also the stuff about Eriksen and (for me particularly) Alli's pressing.

there were times during which Eriksen and Alli would make vertical pressing runs and the other wouldn’t provide the balance leaving Wanyama with large areas of open space to defend in the middle. This wasn’t highlighted as such due to Middlesbrough’s “safe” usage of possession and the lack of a strong central link between the base of midfield and the frontline.

This did offer some cause for concern however heading into our next game against (at the time) League frontrunners Manchester City, what needed to be corrected was, if Alli and Eriksen were going to break out of the midfield line in our low block 1-4-1-4-1 shape, they needed to press much more aggressively/quickly whilst the other tucked in closer towards Wanyama so he would have the freedom to plug any gap left by the pressing midfielder.


You've included Eriksen in there, but for me Alli's pressing was by far the worst, it was that faux "show" type pressing we used to see from players like Townsend where they'd over run allowing the player in possession to easily move past them or he would not use intelligence to cut down the angles and spaces, allowing easy escape with the ball or pass. Eriksen isn't tenacious but nobody covers more ground than him in our team and what he does do is generally use intelligence to make up for tenacity, he'll close down intelligently, cutting the angle of escape. Alli fools people because he will tackle more readily than Eriksen at times, but his pressing is actually very shoddy a lot of the time. I think you could have included Kane in there more validly than Eriksen, as Kane went through phases (before injured and when back from injury) when he didn't apply himself as he used to and in our system when one element fails the press it throws others out and puts pressure, as you said, on the CM (Wanyama). But I get your overall point and it's a valid one.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Think this thread needs a necessary bump given the current tactical shift which has in my opinion made us harder to watch lately.

I can’t go into the detail of some but I do think we’ve lost our high press, it is no longer habit and as a result we are far less creative than we were for the past two seasons.

I think this owes to a few things:

  1. Formation. We have become bottom heavy. The 343 is great when you want to counter versus a side against whom it is difficult to dominate possession, but against a side who only want to sit back and shut you out like 12/20 teams in this league, there are fewer bodies further up the pitch to win the ball. We win the ball so deep that by the time we near the opposition final third we have a ten man defence to break down.
  2. Wanyama, or the lack of. Our one true hunter gather, chaser of the ball wherber it is, has been out all season and so we aren’t winning the ball back until our own third.
  3. The Winks conundrum. Yes, he takes the ball in tight areas and he moves it quickly, but that’s mainly in our half where it won’t hurt the opposition. He’s become a first choice player but he’s still only half a metronome. He needs that other half, where he releases play ahead of him quickly and instigated the attack. He’s currently more Pedro Mendes than Modric I’m afraid. This will improve with experience, as it did with Modric, and it also ties in with point one, more players in front of him moving in between the lines will give him more to aim at. Modric did have Bale, VdV and Lennon after all. That said, they used to say of Hoddle that he made the forwards run into the right areas by playing the passes into danger zones, perhaps some more of that would help. Take a chance Winks, you have the ability.
  4. Collective poor form of the front 3 who used to lead our press. Kane, Dele, Eriksen, all are playing within themselves.
Apart from the odd game it’s all been a bit stale this season, I think the loss of our press is the main reason and I don’t think this will change until we revisit the tactics of the past three years. Whether it’s personnel, formation or coaching (or a combination), we are in dire need of impetus or we are going to regress.
 

TwanYid

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2013
1,223
3,484
Think this thread needs a necessary bump given the current tactical shift which has in my opinion made us harder to watch lately.

I can’t go into the detail of some but I do think we’ve lost our high press, it is no longer habit and as a result we are far less creative than we were for the past two seasons.

I think this owes to a few things:

  1. Formation. We have become bottom heavy. The 343 is great when you want to counter versus a side against whom it is difficult to dominate possession, but against a side who only want to sit back and shut you out like 12/20 teams in this league, there are fewer bodies further up the pitch to win the ball. We win the ball so deep that by the time we near the opposition final third we have a ten man defence to break down.
  2. Wanyama, or the lack of. Our one true hunter gather, chaser of the ball wherber it is, has been out all season and so we aren’t winning the ball back until our own third.
  3. The Winks conundrum. Yes, he takes the ball in tight areas and he moves it quickly, but that’s mainly in our half where it won’t hurt the opposition. He’s become a first choice player but he’s still only half a metronome. He needs that other half, where he releases play ahead of him quickly and instigated the attack. He’s currently more Pedro Mendes than Modric I’m afraid. This will improve with experience, as it did with Modric, and it also ties in with point one, more players in front of him moving in between the lines will give him more to aim at. Modric did have Bale, VdV and Lennon after all. That said, they used to say of Hoddle that he made the forwards run into the right areas by playing the passes into danger zones, perhaps some more of that would help. Take a chance Winks, you have the ability.
  4. Collective poor form of the front 3 who used to lead our press. Kane, Dele, Eriksen, all are playing within themselves.
Apart from the odd game it’s all been a bit stale this season, I think the loss of our press is the main reason and I don’t think this will change until we revisit the tactics of the past three years. Whether it’s personnel, formation or coaching (or a combination), we are in dire need of impetus or we are going to regress.

I feel a lot the same way. I am far from a tactical genius considering I’ve never actually played the game in my life (I’m a 50yr old American- sorry)— but even I knew 3 CBs against West Brom was a bad idea. It’s weird— remember when Poch would regularly get slaughtered on here (rightly so I might add) for ALWAYS playing 4-2-3-1 and never changing our formation— well now it’s as if he’s back to that falling-in-love-with-one-way style, except now it’s 3-4-3 (or 3-5-2, or 3-4-2-1 or whatever— point being three CBs, always). Yes he changed it up yesterday mid-game (thank God)- but why start out with this style anyway against a Pulis-lite-style West Brom team? Dier should’ve ALWAYS been a DM— rather than a third halfback! I feel like this choice just makes life uneccesarily difficult against the bus parkers....

Also to your point about Winks: WOW do I agree and I’m glad someone else said it. Love the little guy- and I DO agree that he has tremendous upside and will learn to be more forward thinking with time, but fuck me if he isn’t tepid against defensive-minded teams. Yes- against better (attacking) opposition he does thread more through-balls, but against teams like yesterday’s sack of excrement he just doesn’t “make things happen” (again: YET). When Dembele came on the gulf in class (in terms of how to play against a team that parks the bus) was evident; he put his head down and charged at them like a bull, rather than safe-passing sideways which does nothing against the West Broms of the world.

Horses for courses I suppose.
 
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BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Looking at yesterday I think there’s a few things which struck me:

  1. Dele appeared far happier on the left than ever before. Only one game I know, but he seemed to use the space very well, was unpredictable in where he was going to roam and offered a real threat. Maybe, for a while at least, this position will get the most out of him, as while he lacks the pace of Zaha/ Martial, he certainly has the skill and imagination, and is far more productive both as a scorer and maker of goals. Couple this with his natural athleticism and you also ensure a well protected left back and a centre which is duly aided when the game gets congested.
  2. Equally, Moura tucking in as a second striker ala Sterling at the World Cup doesn’t suit him. He’s a player who likes to stretch the game and get in round the back, yesterday saw him unsure when to run, how close to Kane he should get and what the best use of the ball would be. He and Eriksen also seemed to get in each other’s way a lot.
  3. If we are going to play a midfield 2, be it with a 3421 or a 4231, then one of those two has to be far more adept at keeping us in possession. Dembele or Winks, or even dropping Eriksen back when all of our AMs are fit and available, is fine, especially with Dier or Wanyama anchoring, but Sissoko is a player who won’t bring that, regardless of what his uses may be. I would be different if we played a 433 as ball retention is naturally easier with a more packed midfield, but there were too many times yerserday where we just didn’t take good enough care of the ball.
  4. Kane, for all the good he does do when he roams away from the front, needs to be told to do it less even if it means he ends up on the periphery. He’s a great all round striker, true, but in a one forward system where the other attackers are more midfielders than forwards (Dele, Eriksen, Lucas, Lamela), Kane needs to trust the midfield to do its job and stay up top as a spearhead. Too often yesterday potentially dangerous situations ended up stalling because we were playing in front of Newcastle’s defence.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Jul 25, 2012
4,270
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Looking at yesterday I think there’s a few things which struck me:

  1. Dele appeared far happier on the left than ever before. Only one game I know, but he seemed to use the space very well, was unpredictable in where he was going to roam and offered a real threat. Maybe, for a while at least, this position will get the most out of him, as while he lacks the pace of Zaha/ Martial, he certainly has the skill and imagination, and is far more productive both as a scorer and maker of goals. Couple this with his natural athleticism and you also ensure a well protected left back and a centre which is duly aided when the game gets congested.
  2. Equally, Moura tucking in as a second striker ala Sterling at the World Cup doesn’t suit him. He’s a player who likes to stretch the game and get in round the back, yesterday saw him unsure when to run, how close to Kane he should get and what the best use of the ball would be. He and Eriksen also seemed to get in each other’s way a lot.
  3. If we are going to play a midfield 2, be it with a 3421 or a 4231, then one of those two has to be far more adept at keeping us in possession. Dembele or Winks, or even dropping Eriksen back when all of our AMs are fit and available, is fine, especially with Dier or Wanyama anchoring, but Sissoko is a player who won’t bring that, regardless of what his uses may be. I would be different if we played a 433 as ball retention is naturally easier with a more packed midfield, but there were too many times yerserday where we just didn’t take good enough care of the ball.
  4. Kane, for all the good he does do when he roams away from the front, needs to be told to do it less even if it means he ends up on the periphery. He’s a great all round striker, true, but in a one forward system where the other attackers are more midfielders than forwards (Dele, Eriksen, Lucas, Lamela), Kane needs to trust the midfield to do its job and stay up top as a spearhead. Too often yesterday potentially dangerous situations ended up stalling because we were playing in front of Newcastle’s defence.
Only saw the last 30 minutes or so (apparently the worse part of the game and I can only hope so) but am interested in how this evaluation stacks up. I will say that for whatever the respective merits it holds for #'s 1, 3, and 4 your assessment of Moura's typical game in #2 is somewhat wide of the mark.

Throughout all his time at PSG pinching and attacking centrally with pace has been his forte. There is ample evidence to support this. If you feel it doesn't suit him then I won't attempt to debate that as it is as valid as any other opinion.

I didn't see the whole game so his suitability to that position within our team could just need time to gel. But it wouldn't be the first time a player with superior technical ability couldn't get on the same page with our players in tight areas.
 

Sophos151

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2016
792
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Aurier, Sissoko and Lucas is not a balanced right side of the pitch. Too much pace and directness, not enough creativity and composure.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Looking at yesterday I think there’s a few things which struck me:

  1. Dele appeared far happier on the left than ever before. Only one game I know, but he seemed to use the space very well, was unpredictable in where he was going to roam and offered a real threat. Maybe, for a while at least, this position will get the most out of him, as while he lacks the pace of Zaha/ Martial, he certainly has the skill and imagination, and is far more productive both as a scorer and maker of goals. Couple this with his natural athleticism and you also ensure a well protected left back and a centre which is duly aided when the game gets congested.

Don't agree with that BBLG, purely because I think Alli's best role is playing nominally from the left where he can attack space and drift into the box from different angles and he's shown that plenty of times before - Bournemouth away at the end of last season being a recent example. It's where I think he does his best work in the 4-2-3-1, and if we did ever go to 4-3-3 instead of playing in the cm3 (as everyone else places him) I'd put him in the left forward position, just drifting about finding the best space to exploit. Very much like Thomas Muller does.
 

cockerel downunder

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2008
922
2,208
So what’s the official take on the formation we played against Newcastle ?

At first I thought we had lived up with Eriksen playing deep in a 3 with deli pushed tight up as lw in a 433, but as the game wore on I though it was more likely the 4231 just quite a fluid version.

Start of second half Sissoko looked more a box to box than a double pivot though.

I’m no tactics expert so curious what the consensus is?
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
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Looking at yesterday I think there’s a few things which struck me:

  1. Kane, for all the good he does do when he roams away from the front, needs to be told to do it less even if it means he ends up on the periphery. He’s a great all round striker, true, but in a one forward system where the other attackers are more midfielders than forwards (Dele, Eriksen, Lucas, Lamela), Kane needs to trust the midfield to do its job and stay up top as a spearhead. Too often yesterday potentially dangerous situations ended up stalling because we were playing in front of Newcastle’s defence.
He was doing the same in the later stage of the WC.
I don't mind him having a nibble at their defensive midfielders as part of a press, but we don't really do the intense pressing any more.
I don't mind him coming really deep past the half way, when we are breaking, as his distribution is very good when he has the space and time to play.
And although he is not pacey, he is good on the wing as again with a bit of space, he plays very dangerous balls into the box.

But when he plays in the central midfield area, amongst their defensive midfielders, he gets overpowered, and cannot hold the ball. A player either has to have the bulk to hold or they have to be continually on the move to evade the DMs...
He can't really tackle either. He just looks very ordinary.

Different story in the box, but this season the most forgetful of defenders is going to be sticking to the WC top scorer for every second. It could be a tough season for him.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
So what’s the official take on the formation we played against Newcastle ?

At first I thought we had lived up with Eriksen playing deep in a 3 with deli pushed tight up as lw in a 433, but as the game wore on I though it was more likely the 4231 just quite a fluid version.

Start of second half Sissoko looked more a box to box than a double pivot though.

I’m no tactics expert so curious what the consensus is?

I'd have said 4-2-3-1, it was just asymmetrical/lop-sided. Dier and Sissoko were definitely a cm2, Alli was quite disciplined on the left hand side. Eriksen played a lot more as a No.10 in the pocket I thought than he often does for us, and Moura was very high and quite narrow playing closer to Kane.
 

Chris Flynn

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2012
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Aurier and Sissoko look like a couple of lads who join in a game down the park, are not as good as the rest but only pass to each other at the moment.
 
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