Champions League - 2017/18

LexingtonSpurs · Sep 4, 2017

Keep it simple:

Teams can name 17 non-HG players - maximum
Teams can name 4 additional players if they are home-grown - on the club's books at least 3 years from 15-21
Teams can name an additional 4 players if they are home-grown - on any club within the Association at least 3 years from 15-21

None of these quota apply to U21 players - as long as those players have been with the club for 2 year.

We have named 16 non-HG players - which leaves one slot open - it could be filled by either Lamela or Janssen, and I suspect we will name one to the squad eventually.

talkshowhost86 · Sep 4, 2017

Among all the confusing rules, could we not have put Janssen in instead of Gazzaniga and then had a youth keeper as third keeper cover for these six games?

Just seems such a kick in the tits for Janssen and probably the final nail in the coffin for his Spurs career.

Maxtremist · Sep 4, 2017

LexingtonSpurs said:
Davies is home-grown - Association trained.

Dier - is not HG as he came through Portugal via Sporting.

I think the issue is Davies actually isn't HG/Association trained. Weird thing with the whole English FA VS Welsh FA.
Therefore we've filled our 17 non HG slots so no place for Lamela and Janssen.

glospur · Sep 4, 2017

LexingtonSpurs said:
Keep it simple:

Teams can name 17 non-HG players - maximum
Teams can name 4 additional players if they are home-grown - on the club's books at least 3 years from 15-21
Teams can name an additional 4 players if they are home-grown - on any club within the Association at least 3 years from 15-21

None of these quota apply to U21 players - as long as those players have been with the club for 2 year.

We have named 16 non-HG players - which leaves one slot open - it could be filled by either Lamela or Janssen, and I suspect we will name one to the squad eventually.

Dan Kilpatrick‏Verified account@Dan_KP 44m44 minutes ago
Davies doesn't count as "association-trained" because he came through ranks at Swansea (under FAW)

So it's actually 17 non-HG players we've included.

talkshowhost86 · Sep 4, 2017

So is the upshot of all this that we have the same size squad for the Champions League as Man City did when they were being punished for breaching FFP?

Seems fair.

yanno · Sep 4, 2017

Rob said:
You're still misunderstanding.

What "extra" quota of non-homegrown? There isn't a quota of non-homegrown.

There needs to be 8 slots on the A list that are reserved for home grown players. You can not fill these slots with non-homegrown players.

If we had 8 empty slots (because all of our home grown players were kids) or 8 full slots it'd make no difference to how many non-homegrown we could have. The maximum is still 17 (25 - the 8 reserved slots).

Thanks.. You're absolutely correct about the 17 non-homegrown, but the other 8 are made up of:

1. Club-trained players – players who were on a club's books for three years between the ages of 15 and 21;
2. Association-trained players – players who were on another club's books in the same association for three years between the ages of 15 and 21. No club can have more than four association-trained players among their eight nominees on List A.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2400510.html

So a club can have a maximum of four association trained players and the other four have to have come through the club's academy to get to a fulll squad of 25.

So I understand this to mean that Fabregas is club trained for the goons and association trained for the chavs because of his age when Wenger poached him. Whereas Dier is neither association nor club trained, because he didn't spend three years in England under the age of 21, and thus counts as non-homegrown despite obviously being an "English" player.

The point I was unsuccessfully attempting to make is that the reason UEFA introduced the club-trained rule was to encourage clubs to bring young players through their own Academies. Kane, Rose and Winks all came through our Academy, spending more than 3 years at the club between the ages of 15 and 21. Chavski now have no one in their squad that came through their Academy.

So, getting my head round the rules a bit more, and the B list:

A player may be registered on List B if he is born on, or after, 1 January 1995 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday (players aged 16 may be registered if they have been registered with the club for the previous two years). Clubs are entitled to register an unlimited number of players on List B during the season, but the list must be submitted by no later than 24:00CET the day before a match.

Presumably this means that once Winks is over 21 (on the B List dates) then he can take a club-trained slot in our CL squad, alongside Kane and Rose. Whereas chavski have no players who will be eligible for the club-trained slot until they bring the likes of Tammy Abraham (once he's 21) and RLC back from their loans.

So I suppose this is how the rules are meant to encourage clubs to develop players through their own Academies.

yanno · Sep 4, 2017

glospur said:
Dan Kilpatrick‏Verified account@Dan_KP 44m44 minutes ago
Davies doesn't count as "association-trained" because he came through ranks at Swansea (under FAW)

So it's actually 17 non-HG players we've included.

And yet it looks like Davies would be on the homegrown list (or its equivalent) for our Premier League squad.

The remainder of the squad, up to a total of 25 players, must be Home Grown. An HGP means a player who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).

https://www.premierleague.com/news/84136

Maxtremist · Sep 4, 2017

talkshowhost86 said:
So is the upshot of all this that we have the same size squad for the Champions League as Man City did when they were being punished for breaching FFP?

Seems fair.

No.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27798163

Man City had a restriction on home-grown players, cutting it down to 5 instead of 8 (and I believe only being able to/only actually naming 16 non Home grown).

Maxtremist · Sep 4, 2017

yanno said:
And yet it looks like Davies would be on the homegrown list (or its equivalent) for our Premier League squad.

The remainder of the squad, up to a total of 25 players, must be Home Grown. An HGP means a player who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).

https://www.premierleague.com/news/84136

Yep, Davies would. Difference between Premiership and UCL.
Does it make sense? No.

yanno · Sep 4, 2017

nicdic said:
Wrong, two is mandatory I believe.

Yup, looks like you're correct. I was sure clubs had to register three GKs in the 25, but it's two GKs on List A.

Who can be on List A?
A maximum of 25 players, two of whom must be goalkeepers. There are a minimum of eight places reserved exclusively for 'locally trained players'. If a club have fewer than eight locally trained players in their squad, then the maximum number of players on List A is reduced accordingly.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2400510.html

Partizan · Sep 4, 2017

'O Zio said:
Massively weakens them. Dembele is one of the most exciting young players in the game, whereas Yamolenko is an overhyped former FM-legend whose real-life counterpart never lived up to the game. So he was one of the best players in the Ukranian league for however long, but what does that really say? He'll probably be alright but he's nowhere near the level of Dembele

Don't agree at all. I'm a big fan of him because he is quite unique in today's game: a big, powerful, hardworking and technical AM with a majestic left foot and a deceiving burst of acceleration from a standstill. The only real basis for saying he hasn't lived up to the game is because he's stayed in one club in an isolated league for his career thus far. A league he has absolutely torn apart, but has also performed against other european clubs and with his national side. I bet the same was being said of Mkhitaryan, and he made the jump to the Bundesliga and rather quickly erased any reservations people had about him.

Dembele is of course much younger and has the potential to reach the very top and is already performing at a high level, but to say that replacing him with Yarmolenko "massively weakens them" when in addition to that they have a plethora of other quality attacking midfielders anyway (which kind of begs the question if they actually needed him) is bollocks really

yankspurs · Sep 4, 2017

golfspurs said:
Dan ESPN said Davies is not count Associated trained quota

But I disagree with him

Surely Davies is HG & AT

That cannot be true. Swansea plays in English football meaning they have a say in English football decisions like every other club.

Saoirse · Sep 4, 2017

Lamela was an obvious choice to exclude since it's highly doubtful he'd be fit to play anyway. The choice was which to leave out from Jansenn, Gazzaniga or Foyth.

Foyth is untested, but is a clear 5th-choice at CB. Considering we likely want to play 3 at the back in this, Dier may well be playing in midfield and Vertonghen is somewhat injury prone, he seems pretty crucial to have as an option.

That leaves Gazzaniga. Obviously we very much hope not to have to play him, but if we left him out and both Hugo and Vorm were unavailable we'd be stuck with Alfie Whiteman in goal. Personally I think that's too big a risk to take. It also has an additional downside that Whiteman would have to be with the senior squad for our CL matches in case disaster strikes (e.g. Hugo injured in the warmup and we need him on the bench), depriving him of the chance to get experience in the UEFA Youth League. So on the whole I agree with this decision, harsh as it may seem on Janssen.

elDiablo · Sep 4, 2017

Just finished work expecting a nice easy catch up on SC but my head us pounding after reading that.

Bottom line for me is it's a sad story for Janssen. Perhaps a bit of punishment for not going to Brighton? Or him trying to call poch's bluff...

Saoirse · Sep 4, 2017

yankspurs said:
That cannot be true. Swansea plays in English football meaning they have a say in English football decisions like every other club.

Up until I believe the 1st of January 2012, Swansea and Cardiff were members of the Welsh FA. That means while any players who come through in the future will be counted as trained in England, Davies had less than three years of registration with the English FA prior to the age of 21 and is therefore a foreign player.

Maxtremist · Sep 4, 2017

yankspurs said:
That cannot be true. Swansea plays in English football meaning they have a say in English football decisions like every other club.

It would appear that for the UCL, the Welsh FA and English FA count as different associations. It makes some sense since Welsh teams have their own way of making it to the UCL and all of that, though when Swansea or Cardiff ever make it to Europe that might cause some confusion/changes.

Swansea having an affect on the game and the Welsh FA stuff seems to come more into affect with the Premier League and that side of things rather than Europe.

Saoirse · Sep 4, 2017

elDiablo said:
Just finished work expecting a nice easy catch up on SC but my head us pounding after reading that.

Bottom line for me is it's a sad story for Janssen. Perhaps a bit of punishment for not going to Brighton? Or him trying to call poch's bluff...

Have to remember Poch's comments after the Fulham game last season too inferring that he hadn't worked hard enough in training to earn his chance. I'm guessing any improvement since then has been deemed insufficient.

'O Zio · Sep 4, 2017

Partizan said:
Don't agree at all. I'm a big fan of him because he is quite unique in today's game: a big, powerful, hardworking and technical AM with a majestic left foot and a deceiving burst of acceleration from a standstill. The only real basis for saying he hasn't lived up to the game is because he's stayed in one club in an isolated league for his career thus far. A league he has absolutely torn apart, but has also performed against other european clubs and with his national side. I bet the same was being said of Mkhitaryan, and he made the jump to the Bundesliga and rather quickly erased any reservations people had about him.

Dembele is of course much younger and has the potential to reach the very top and is already performing at a high level, but to say that replacing him with Yarmolenko "massively weakens them" when in addition to that they have a plethora of other quality attacking midfielders anyway (which kind of begs the question if they actually needed him) is bollocks really

I didn't say he wasn't good, I just think he's massively overhyped due to him having been a so derkid on FM years ago. Either way there isnt a team on the planet who'd rather have Yarmolenko than Dembele given a choice between the two so to me that is a sign that they've been weakened, not just for now but for the future as well given that Dembele's ceiling is miles better than Yarnolenko.

Fair enough if you disagree with me but that doesn't mean I'm "talking bollocks" as you do politely put it.

yanno · Sep 4, 2017

Saoirse said:
Have to remember Poch's comments after the Fulham game last season too inferring that he hadn't worked hard enough in training to earn his chance. I'm guessing any improvement since then has been deemed insufficient.

Perhaps. But we did have the post-window ITK from @Hercules that Poch loved Janssen's attitude in training. I can't link to it because that part of the site is currently being archived.

VJ has just started two matches as Holland's main striker in a World Cup year, so he'll doubtless be gutted at missing the cut for the Champions League.

yanno · Sep 4, 2017

I note manure have only named 2 goalkeepers, De Gea and Romero, and will presumably resort to a B List player in an injury crisis..

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/clubs/club=52682/index.html

Also, whilst many clubs have joined us in naming 3 goalkeepers to the A List, several have included a B List player as their 3rd goalkeeper. Eg Bayern, PSG, Real Madrid. So it's clearly a tough decision when whittling the squad down, and presumably in part comes down to how much faith the coach has in the best B List (ie club or association trained) keeper in the squad.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/clubs/club=50037/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/clubs/club=52747/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/clubs/club=50051/index.html

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