Spurrific
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- Jun 2, 2011
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He does look really good in that. He doesn't look any slighter than Woodburn and he's making waves internationally now - basically what I'm saying is, get rid of Dembele and play TOB
The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018
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He does look really good in that. He doesn't look any slighter than Woodburn and he's making waves internationally now - basically what I'm saying is, get rid of Dembele and play TOB
IGSpur
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- Jan 11, 2013
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No TOB could be quality.
I remember saying when him (and Kirby) were u16s or 15 I said I'd be surprised if there was a better midfield 2 in Europe than them, and @KingSRV agreed. For those who don't know he is very knowledgeable about all youth in Europe. Sure enough in their very talented England age group, alot of youth watchers have TOB (and Kirby when fit) as starters which when you see the options is impressive, and some say he is arguably one of our most important players especially in the recent Euros. I try to temper my judgments and last season he definitely under performed compared to what I was expecting after what I had seen from u13s up.
It would have left anyone who had heard about the hype, scratching their heads as to what he offers, unless they watches the internationals. However, in his age group,, though Sancho gets the attention being a winger, a flashy impressive one at that, adn Sessegnon you has got attention through being given a chance in the Championship, TOB is seen as one of the best players, along with Gomes (another potential star).
I really hope he performs to his potential at u23s. In Onomahs' 2nd year he was completely dominating u21 football and got his debut and should have played more, it will be interesting to see where TOB ends up in comparison.
Is that ITK or opinion mate? And I guess you might apply to the above. I don't know how much you would have seen of him at u16s but the player I watched last year, at club level, wasn't the same. In fact TOB has actually played better in the 2/3 u18s games he featured in as an u16 than any game I saw him play last year.
Bus-Conductor
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And they paid 6m for him. Peanuts by todays transfer money, but about 5.5m more than we'd have paid through tribunal I think, no?
Bus-Conductor
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On the other hand, if they were French they'd all be first team mainstays for the last two years. And in the US, they generally aren't competing with players from just about every country in the planet for competition for their recruitment.
EQP
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I read 8m with sell on and other add-ons.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/31/jadon-sancho-borussia-dortmund-manchester-city
Bus-Conductor
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@beats1 is right though. Look at what's just happened to KWP. We've just stuck a 25m, 24yo in his path just as he was breaking through. Aurier's a decent player for sure, but what's KWP going to do if he performs ? Go elsewhere ? Look at Smith at Bournemouth, he had as many assists as Walker last year and he didn't have Kane, Alli, Eriksen et al imagine if he'd been here for the last 4 years working with Poch. But he had to go because we'd put not just Walker, but Naughton in front of him.
Then there was out attempt to buy the kid from some Spanish club who's names I forget now, and then Gomes. Where does Onomah fit into those plans ?
I could understand if we were buying Keita, but fucking Gomes or some other promising kid who possibly isn't as good as Onomah, he's just played games.
allpaths
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Quite possible but we are not trying to produce a player that are at the quality to play in ligue 1. We're trying to develop these youngsters so that they can handle the rigors of playing week in week out in a league that is at the top of it's profession.
The comparison across sports is far from perfect, but that point is that most athletes take till they are 24-25 to mature to be able too handle the level of there competion. So when a player is 19 or 20 it isnt really fair to make any final judgements on how the club is handling them till they have matured completely.
Bus-Conductor
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Mate, France has been producing quality footballers by the absolute shitload two or three decades. It exports more footballers than anyone bar Brazil to the best leagues in the world. Just about every great team in Europe has one, how many have English players?
allpaths
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BC your absolutely right about this talk about buying and Celta's Diop, Barkely or Gomes to play cm would be extremely disappointing when we have two young cms in Winks and Onomah that are knocking on the door and have the required talent to become stars at our club. Not to mention that the CM postion the academy does best at developing.
The Aurier signing should only block KWP's path for this season because I can easily see Trippier getting moved on after this year and Poch is always going to have to rotate his fullbacks a fair amount hence the falling out with Walker. So KWP backs up Aurier and possible the LB spot for 2 or 3 years till he's around 23/24 when he's about to enter his prime and he takes over for Aurier. That's not that bad of an opportunity, and he'd be a pretty big part of the squad if he covers both FBs/WBs.
Mate I understand that, but French sides can take that risk of playing younger players in there league because if the player turns out to be of middling Championship quality then for a lot sides that player would be a solid squad player at worst. Where at Spurs they'd be a massive liability.
Obviously the way English clubs bring through youngsters is apalling and need to be reformed. But I don't think the way Poch brings through youngsters can be questioned as I feel he understands that in this country it takes a patient well plotted approach to bring through the lads.
- May 8, 2005
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I don't disagree that it's frustrating to not see our young players given more chances. I'd have stuck with Trippier and KWP, and I'd have kept Onomah around and played him as Dembele's back up. But the management have deemed otherwise. Rather than choose to believe they don't rate any of them or don't care for them though, I prefer to keep optimistic about their chances.
What is, as @allpaths has said above, that the Aurier signing has more to do with Trippier than KWP? In a years time Trippier could be moved on and KWP is understudy to a higher quality player. The Aurier signing makes much more sense against the backdrop of an underlying concern for Trippier's ability to be the no. 1.
As for Diop, the rumours all said that we pulled out of that move because Poch preferred TOB. We didn't move on to Gomes from Diop, rather Gomes appeared to be the back up to Barkley.
Broadly I agree with you guys, I wan't the kids to come through and make it with us. I'm never more proud than when an academy product is pulling on the shirt and performing well, but I also want to think the best of the club and keep an optimistic and positive view there.
Spurzinho
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I understand your frustration but as I mentioned a good few pages back in this thread there is a possibility for KWP to still play a good few games this season. If we make it to the CL final, the FA cup final & the League Cup final then we'll play 59 games (assuming no replays). We know that Poch likes to rotate his fullbacks so if he split them evenly between Trippier & Aurier then its 29/30. But I can see a scenario where KWP could be given a carefully selected 5th of the games, giving him 11/12 games. Which still leaves 23/24 for Aurier and Tripper. Obviously for every knockout round that we miss out on that reduces the pool of games. Optimistic, maybe but possible.
As big a fan as I am of KWP its hard for me to be negative about the Aurier signing. Terrific player.
I agree with this point. .I see KWP as having a much higher ceiling and I'm confident of seeing improvements from him in the coming months/years.. However, I dont see much further improvement from Trippier.
When Aurier gets up to speed and if there are no on/off field issues with him, then I see us moving Trippier on next season.
danielneeds
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Agreed. The challenge for KWP is to move ahead of Trippier this season. Surplant him and become Aurier's deputy.
Love TOB honestly think he will be better than winks and onomah,looks he has it all for a CM.has that calmness of dembele but also looks much more incisive and also blessed with serious pace.Be interesting to see how much time he gets this year .
Kilkenny Cat
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Couldn't agree more with this. One thing we know about Poch is that he while he gives youngsters their chance, he doesn't throw them in at the deep end - nor should he. Not buying Aurier and leaving KWP as Trippier's understudy would have been tantamount to hanging him out to dry. Now KWP can get his quota of games, mostly away from the spotlight, and develop incrementally.
As for Barkley or Gomes, they'd have been needed for the Champions League campaign.
Bus-Conductor
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But that, to a degree, is the problem. Aurier is a very good RB. It's not like we have bought a RB to cover while KWP finds his feet. Aurier has been bought to be No.1 and potentially, at 24yo for some time.
I know him very well, have watched him play live about 40 times, two or three years ago I suggested he was a player we could upgrade Walker with. But I do believe that in KWP we have a player who will be better than him and Walker and Trippier. But how will he become that player playing 3/4/5/6 games for the next 2/3 of years. If I was him I'd be wanting to play every week pretty soon, and he should be, no ifs or buts, the kid is ready to take that next step.
- May 8, 2005
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So outperform him in training and win the spot.
What's the big deal?
Poch has shown he doesn't care about playing signings because they cost money. Janssen and Sissoko cost around the same or more, and hardly get minutes. If he shows he's good enough he'll make it.
If you guys believe in these kids as much as you say you do surely they should be able to break in? You argue tooth and nail that they're good enough, but also want them to be handed opportunities on a plate.
Bus-Conductor
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It just doesn't work like that and you know it. It's never a case of just outperforming in training, and in this case it's definitely not that simple. Aurier is a good RB, but he's as good as he is now because he started playing regular first team football when he was 17. If Aurier performs well in games it doesn't matter who plays best in training KWP will not get picked ahead of him. Just like if Kane had a bad week and Janssen was great in training, Kane isn't getting dropped for the PL game at the weekend.
I don't expect KWP to outperform Aurier in training or in matches most weeks right now, or for a year or two. But what needs to happen is he needs the time that Aurier got when he was at the same development stage, and during that time I expect KWP to be a mixed bag of not as good as Aurier is right now some weeks, as good as he is right now occasionally and a couple of times showing glimpses of being better, but at no time do I think he will be a liability. he's a better FB now than Davies is, and Davies hasn't cost us much. And gradually I expect those ratios to switch, and after a couple of seasons I expect him to be as good as Aurier at least most weeks, better than him quite a few games and not as good as him the odd game.
It's never going to be as simple for development kids that they will just magically one day be so much "better in training" that they will oust a good senior player ahead of them. Because it's loads of regular match experience that's made that senior player the rounded player he is.
And Sissoko was still given much more game time than Onomah or Edwards despite being a vastly, and I mean vastly inferior footballer, and he's another player I have seen a shitload of, inc way before he got to England.
The tricky thing is that as the club becomes more competitive at the top of the table the expectation grows. As the expectation grows the need to remain at the top becomes greater and the ability to take a chance on youth, to give them time to establish themselves, diminishes. Mid-table teams can introduce youth like Everton, Southampton etc can play younger players knowing that they have good enough senior pros to keep them mid-table. Teams at the bottom may have to play youth because they cant afford established players. Teams at the top cant afford to play youth. Spurs have moved into that top bracket in the last 3-4 years in a large part because of youth in Bale, Rose, Kane, walker, Alli. But now that we are in the CL and fighting for the league title on a regular basis could we really rely on KWP filling the Walker void? I think the answer is no. He isn't ready to deliver that consistency now and trippier, for all his positive elements, doesn't have the same physical components as a walker, kwp or Serge. Truth is he plays RB and LB so KWP could well get games all season as one of the four fullbacks will likely be injured throughout the season.
Spurs youth will find it harder and harder to break through from now on and whilst that is a shame it is a product of our own success, which would you rather? Success or home grown talent?
Spurs youth will find it harder and harder to break through from now on and whilst that is a shame it is a product of our own success, which would you rather? Success or home grown talent?
