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Match Ratings Ratings vs West Ham

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Toby

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 3 0.9%
  • Verts

    Votes: 74 21.4%
  • Aurier

    Votes: 6 1.7%
  • Dier

    Votes: 3 0.9%
  • Sissoko

    Votes: 10 2.9%
  • Davies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 55 15.9%
  • Dele

    Votes: 6 1.7%
  • Kane

    Votes: 183 52.9%
  • Winks

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Trippier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Llorente

    Votes: 4 1.2%

  • Total voters
    346

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
7,497
13,029
He's a Godsend. The scary thing is that he will only get better as he gets older. Doesn't rely on pace, so as he becomes more experienced he'll improve his positioning and general reading of the game.

Look at players like Forlan. He was a good forward for most of his career, but peaked when he was about 34-35 when he became a class act. Kane's already better than Forlan ever was, and he's only just getting started.
You're right, he will get better, because that's what he wants to do, and he'll put in the work to do it. He's an interesting blend of natural ability and desire to improve. Has a goalscorer's instinct, has a footballing brain, plied his trade in the 10 role, which meant he learned much more about approach play than any limited, pure striker ever would.

When you get that almost primal desire to score, and the ability to deliver on that, ...kind of Greaves territory. We've got a gem!
 

southlondonyiddo

My eyes have seen some of the glory..
Nov 8, 2004
12,599
15,011
Kane absolutely brilliant again today. What a player

Thought Aurier was bossing it until he got sent off which could have cost us. Won't be the last time he had an early bath, I fear!

Looked like Sanchez enjoyed the battle with Carrol and did pretty well again

Eriksen classy again. Dele believing the hype again!
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,360
43,015
Kind of like a youngster who is years off his best form, is still learning the game and, like most youngsters, will make a lot of mistakes in the early stages of his career?
A 'kid' who's made over 150 senior appearances and over 20 full caps for England along with a major tournament under his belt as a key player.

How exactly should we critique him then? As I alluded to before, he's lauded as an amazing prodigious talent worldwide so like or it not, the scrutiny will have to match.

He has the tools to be a fantastic match winning individual for years and years to come but he also needs to recognise he's not untouchable and can't neglect the basics.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
A 'kid' who's made over 150 senior appearances and over 20 full caps for England along with a major tournament under his belt as a key player.

How exactly should we critique him then? As I alluded to before, he's lauded as an amazing prodigious talent worldwide so like or it not, the scrutiny will have to match.

He has the tools to be a fantastic match winning individual for years and years to come but he also needs to recognise he's not untouchable and can't neglect the basics.
None of which I disagree with. I'm just adding some much needed perspective. Prodigious talents are still young, still learning and still prone to mistakes and fluctuations in form. My point is that that should also be taken into account but so very rarely is.
Personally I don't see why it is so important to offer a critique for some people, but to each their own I suppose.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,057
6,511
Today's performance echoed what we've seen so far during the whole season.

Hugo, Toby and Davies, and Dier, solid. Eriksen and Kane clicking, but away from home. Sissoko and Dele random, Jan player of the season so far.

The new boys are good, and are gonna be better. Serge needs our support.

To those initiating the Winks love in, try to be a bit more objective when you see him ambling for their second. He should never have allowed that cross in.

A great result.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,360
43,015
None of which I disagree with. I'm just adding some much needed perspective. Prodigious talents are still young, still learning and still prone to mistakes and fluctuations in form. My point is that that should also be taken into account but so very rarely is.
Personally I don't see why it is so important to offer a critique for some people, but to each their own I suppose.
Case in point is surely the comparison and analysis of Sissoko along with Alli today.

The expectation is seemingly so low with the former that today it was passed off as an 'improved' performance so whilst the indiscretions are still there, Sissoko does seemingly function better, albeit not a preferred choice in that role, in the middle than say in a more advanced position.

It's only because we all believe Alli can achieve great things in football - hopefully the majority of his career with us - which is why seeing him perform this season has been so frustrating to watch.
 

slartibartfast

Grunge baby forever
Oct 21, 2012
18,320
33,955
Eriksen classy again. Dele believing the hype again!
I was thinking same thing. Think he needs to get his feet back on the ground. Trying to dribble around 3 players instead of passing. Kept turning into trouble and losing ball. Great player but seems bit off lately in attitude and application imo.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,057
6,511
Anyway, thoughts on the match...

As I said in the match thread at HT and FT, I'm not as yet convinced by the system and personnel employed, but in these initial matches (well, the away ones at least where the game is a bit more open) it has been an effective one in the final third. I don't think we're particularly controlling the midfield very well, which eventually will see us run into difficulties, our pressing still hasn't fired yet this season, and in its own way its another version basically of open football just relying on outgunning the opposition.

The first half for me was pretty meh. A few nice passages of play here and there but no real concerted pressure. Eventually we punished turnover ball very ruthlessly, with some nice bits of play from Eriksen and Vertonghen in particular plus finishing from Kane, and found ourselves 2-0 up and in a comfy position at the break. After half time we found ourselves pushed back (or deliberately shelled), starved of the ball for the opening 10-15 mins, and yet still managed to score a third and hit the post a couple of times. Not great control, not exactly dominant, but 3-0 up. I think it was a generous scoreline but hey, we all remember the days not so long ago when a meh performance was more likely to mean the scoreline was in reverse so could be worse.....

You assume the game is up, but after that little bit of pressure West Ham finally nicked a goal - predictably as we didn't defend a set piece that well. And then the Aurier red card left us with about 25 mins to weather the inevitable storm.

I'll just come out and say that at this point I didn't agree with everything we did after the red card and feel Poch could have read what was happening better and adjusted to it. I was getting flashbacks to that 2-2 Stoke game a couple of years ago where similar happened. You know what they are going to do, its going to be launched into our box, they then brought on an extra player on the left side, even more of a clue as to where the delivery will be coming from... And yet we kind of ignored it. Sissoko and then Trippier were often left two vs. one and the second goal eventually came from that flank, with other reasonable opportunities after that. We didn't hold out, and it's lucky we had the cushion of a two goal lead. I'd have definitely left Sissoko on and shored up our right flank probably going 4-4-1, and I thought both Alli and Kane were done in the last 15 mins and both should have been subbed off earlier for fresh legs who would keep shape better.

In the end it was three points won in a bit of a rollercoaster of a game. Some positives, some stuff to work on. Next.....

Lloris - A couple of routine saves, charged out of his goal a few times, picked the ball out of his net a couple of times... Did he have much more to do?

Alderweireld - Decent enough game, but just not the imperious figure with an aura he was pre-injury.

Sanchez - Must be careful about getting too tight to his man and getting easily rolled, but on the whole a solid game and kicked and headed away when required in the latter stages.

Vertonghen - For a couple of years I was, very justifiably in my opinion, pretty critical of him. Now, If he isn't currently the best centre half in the league I'd like to know who is. Pretty solid defensively, and great work for the second goal amongst other impressive forays forward with the ball.

Aurier - Its early days, there is no need to panic, he's clearly got ability... But too many were rushing to his defence today, when the evidence for him was thin. The, admittedly impressive, last ditch defending was almost always to bail out his own mistakes. Positionally he was all over the place - and it wasn't as if it was in situations where he could say for instance he was stranded up pitch as we had been attacking. Then capped it with a silly red card. Things can only get better...

Davies - Bit quiet first half, solid in the second. Looked a bit weak for the second goal conceded, though I don't think he'd have stopped the header.

Dier - Ok.

Sissoko - In fairness to him he is looking more comfortable. He's having better moments, picking the right passes etc, and making some contributions. However when we have the ball he doesn't particularly see a great deal of it, without he isn't doing a great deal - pressing, or providing a screen in front of the defence - and just when you think 'maybe, just maybe it's coming together for him' he will promptly shin his first touch 10 yards away or pass one out of play. He did also lose his man for the goal. Slight improvement, a long long way to go.

Eriksen - This wasn't a game where he had the total run of it, but still had a big hand in the opening goals before capping it by getting the third himself. So important.

Alli - I thought his application was fine. He was getting about the pitch and getting stuck in and looking for work. He was involved in the opening two goals. And yet at crucial points he was also a bit wasteful and then tired in the last 20 mins and Poch did him no favours by keeping him on the pitch.

Kane - Wasn't a game where he had it all his own way or regular supply, yet two goals and was really unlucky not to get the third too. Worked pretty hard once again, but should have been subbed a little earlier for me.

Subs:
Winks - A few nice moments.
Trippier - Got given a pretty thankless task.
Llorente - Some really good hold up play in the late stages, including the chance he forged for Alli.

As I said this morning, I wasn't sure whether Poch would ask serge to push on knowing Bilic was going to leave someone high on their left, whether Hernandez of Arnie. Do you think Serge made it all up by himself, as opposed to following instructions?

Great start to the match thread btw...
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
Case in point is surely the comparison and analysis of Sissoko along with Alli today.

The expectation is seemingly so low with the former that today it was passed off as an 'improved' performance so whilst the indiscretions are still there, Sissoko does seemingly function better, albeit not a preferred choice in that role, in the middle than say in a more advanced position.

It's only because we all believe Alli can achieve great things in football - hopefully the majority of his career with us - which is why seeing him perform this season has been so frustrating to watch.
I understand that. The thing for me is there is a fundamental lack of understanding of form. Alli is not at top form and is getting some pelters for it. Same as Eriksen did last season, Lamela before that, Walker, Rose, I could go onto every player we have.
He's having a dip in form, which should be expected from a kid, regardless of his prodigious talent, and accounted for.

It doesn't though, which does make some of the comments look absolutely ridiculous.

With regards to Sissoko, there are those who think the bar is low, whereas the reality is that, since he joined us, the bar has been set high so that the scapegoaters always have an excuse to pounce on the guy. It was exactly the same for Lamela until he strung a number of good performances together. Sissoko had a bad start to his time with us, his form was shot to pieces. He's now starting to get a little bit of decent form together. That pesky form thing again.

What really makes me laugh is the amount of "experts" on here that are so quick to point out the mistakes of these players, yet consistently make this same mistake themselves.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,512
As I said this morning, I wasn't sure whether Poch would ask serge to push on knowing Bilic was going to leave someone high on their left, whether Hernandez of Arnie. Do you think Serge made it all up by himself, as opposed to following instructions?

Great start to the match thread btw...

Thinking about the match I'd say some of it wasn't helped by the formation. He was left two vs one at times when the ball got switched out to that flank. But then he has to be culpable for getting himself stranded over and over, he'd go to close Cresswell too late and end up getting taken out of the game by the ball then played in behind him.

I think a lot of it is not being comfortable with the system yet, iirc Poch teaches the players a lot of 'triggers' as to where and when they press, I'd hope its a case of him getting up to speed.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,327
Case in point is surely the comparison and analysis of Sissoko along with Alli today.

The expectation is seemingly so low with the former that today it was passed off as an 'improved' performance so whilst the indiscretions are still there, Sissoko does seemingly function better, albeit not a preferred choice in that role, in the middle than say in a more advanced position.

It's only because we all believe Alli can achieve great things in football - hopefully the majority of his career with us - which is why seeing him perform this season has been so frustrating to watch.

Sissoko played well today period. Nevermind the low expectations, looking at the game today he played well overall, simple as that.
 

GioW

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2011
2,780
11,635
Sissoko in the middle is causing absolute chaos for the opposition, NO JOKE. As soon as we spring he just tares forward leaving so much room for Eriksen , Alli etc. Long may it continue.
 

tippspur59

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2006
2,771
2,522
No surprise to see Harry leading the votes on this but i'm going for Verts,he's always been a good player for us but so far this season he's upped it another gear,excellent again today.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
This might seem a bit bat shit crazy, but has our formation basically become 442?

Lloris
Alderweireld Sanchez Dier Vertonghen
Aurier Sissoko Eriksen Davies
Dele Kane
Would explain how open we're looking as well as how much we need Wanyama or Dembele back.
 

Jamturk

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2008
9,871
22,934
I am astonished that there are people on here that want Alli dropped, incredible folly.
 

VegasII

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2008
9,750
16,670
This might seem a bit bat shit crazy, but has our formation basically become 442?

Lloris
Alderweireld Sanchez Dier Vertonghen
Aurier Sissoko Eriksen Davies
Dele Kane
Would explain how open we're looking as well as how much we need Wanyama or Dembele back.

4-4-trific? Harry would be so proud
 

dannythomas

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
3,757
2,813
Audere est Fucker

That was a real curates egg of a game, selection wise, tactically and in how it unfolded.

Our palpable problems remain in central midfield. West Ham are a mess, and though we are clearly the more talented and better coached side, that was a game that never felt very convincing from us, we were edging the game but it never felt rhythmic or very cohesive. And that's largely because of the selections and application Poch is making.

I remain very unimpressed with Poch's preference for Sissoko in one of the pivoting "8" roles ahead of the infinitely more capable Winks. I just don't get it. The only real advantage Sissoko holds over Winks is his physique. But Sissoko's isn't even that great defensively, he much prefers going forwards, but he lacks the touch, technique or finesse to be very effective going forwards. He's effectively a rhinoceros in a tutu. And I know some people might pay to watch that, I'm just not one of them.

The other compromise is dropping Eriksen into the other "8" role on the other side of Dier. With Alli's fucking bumbling, Kane's kind of robust but erratic hold up play, there is now no-one to provide the composure in the final third, and to be honest, Eriksen is beacon of composure in a sea of bumbly chaos a lot of the time, but I don't think he's great at doing some of the nitty gritty that a deeper CM sometimes needs when things get tetchy and inches are being scrapped over in the middle third.

So what are getting is all a bit Heath Robinson. We don't seem to have full control of games, in terms of tempo or tone, from the middle of the pitch. We are also sacrificing composure and craft in the final third. We are exposing our defenders a little more, particularly our full backs, and Aurier was caught with his pants down a few times today, and we were very fortunate not to concede at 0-0 a couple of times.

The decision not to give Onomah games last year, minutes at the end of games last year, games in midfield in pre season and then pack him off on loan is looking increasingly short sighted now we have Wanyama unavailable and Dembele with the inevitable chronic problems.

The other major issue is the continual selection of a woefully erratic Alli. This isn't a new thing, but instead of improving, it's getting worse. And it's not like people can claim that he gets the nod because, despite all the lazy, careless crap he produces, because Son has proven equally productive. Now I'm not saying Son should be automatically ahead of Alli in the pecking order, but if Poch was the meritocratic altruist we are led to believe, then Alli's performances deserve for him to have been dropped for Son before now. And not doing so is not doing either player any favours. Son must be thinking "what's the point, if he can be this shit, and still get picked ahead of me every week". And Alli must be thinking he can keep producing this shite because he gets picked anyway. Some of his wastage today was scandalous. And it could be mitigated if, like Lamela say, even on an erratic day, he charged around tenaciously working for the team, but his pressing is lethargic and hap hazard much of the time. The boy needs a really good kick up the arse.

I understand why Poch went for Aurier today, but I really don't understand all the praise he was getting in the match thread. It was a typical case of people either making up their minds already, without really having seen enough of him to form a good opinion, or people getting seduced by a player who's tenacious and has a trick or two. Don't misunderstand me, there's more to Aurier than that, he's got some good all round qualities, but I said before, he's also got some issues, he's not perfect, and he definitely wasn't great today. He did a couple of good things. But he also did some poor things, got caught out a few times, sold himself for the Arnautovic chance, nearly gave away a couple of pens, and didn't actually produce much going forward. There are better things to come from him, he is a competitor with ability, but don't pretend you are seeing something great before you do.

On the plus side, I do like this system that Poch has adopted, it's just a shame that he's not quite as brave or meritocratic as he could be.

Audere est Fucker Poch, Andere est Fucker...

Individual

Lloris - OK

Aurier - A real mixed bag. Got caught out of position several times, dived in recklessly a few times, allowing Arnautovic to get away, nearly gave away two pens, but also showed he is an energetic, tenacious competitor, with decent technique.

TA/DS/JV - Our three musketeers were all pretty decent, Vertonghen continues to be the star off the three, playing a hand in the second goal.

Davies - Another decent game and again, nice to see him getting into to forward areas.

Dier - Another game where there were times when he was left a bit exposed by having Sissoko and Eriksen either side, and he's not the dynamic hunter gatherer that Wanyama is in those circumstances, he tends to just take 3 steps backwards and dig a hole. He was Ok, but he'd be a lot better with a couple of proper cm/8's either side.

Sissoko - I don't get the praise some were giving him. OK, he didn't stink the place out, but is that really good enough for a team at our level ? His technique is awful, he's poor under pressure in cm areas, he doesn't see enough of the ball, doesn't want it under pressure, which along with Dier just gives us very poor options when playing out. Going forward he lacks any finesse (and one stage he overhit a pass by about 40 yards) or vision, and at best is lucky if he just manages to deliver the obvious.

Eriksen - This was probably the worst game he's had for a while, but still managed to contribute some important stuff, including a nice finish, a lovely ball for the first and a clever part in the second. I thought there were times his lack of tenacity compromised us in midfield, and we really missed having him in the final third more. Didn't see anywhere near as much ball as he usually does. How the fuck he gets subbed before Alli is anyone's guess though.

Alli - Look, we all know what the kid's MO is by now. Being able to produce an assist or a goal is negated when your laziness with and without the ball is also helping the opposition make goals and assists. It cost us against Chelsea and it nearly cost us several times today, great positions spunked away through poor touch or poor decisions. I even thought his easy pass for Kane's goal was nearly overhit. And he's got to work harder without the ball on days like this to at least mitigate. Needs to be dropped next couple of games, in Son we have a player who can also produce "moments" at a similar rate, and though is also erratic, he's at least a bit busier about it.

Kane - Both his chances looked easier than they were IMO, Alli's was fired in ahead of him and the keeper rebound goal required composure and technique, he took both superbly. Unlucky with his free kick. On the down side, he was offside too often and there were a couple of times he was a bit greedy.


I think when we are doing a match ratings post we have to look at the performances of each player in that particular match and not get caught in our generalised view of those players. For instance, I agree with you that Sissoko is nowhere near first choice nor should he be. But in the absence of Wanyama and Dembele he finds himself given a run of games. I actually think that he did a solid job today and his distribution was neat and tidy. Poch obviously doesn't rate Onomah too highly or at least not yet and Winks is still feeling his way back after a pretty bad injury. He wasn't great against Barnsley the other night.

On the other hand, I also thought Alli was poor again today and wasted several chances in the second half where he could have killed the game off by a poor final ball or getting caught in possession. Critcicising him for " nearly " over hitting his assist to Kane is taking things too far though. I agree with you that Son should come in for him for a few games .

As for Aurier, again I agree that it is too early to form a judgement other than to say that between him , Trippier and KWP we are well covered in that position. I think his first booking was ridiculous and even the second one, though clearly a foul , was a marginal yellow .

Also, do you not think that our 3 central defenders didn't cover themselves with glory by losing their positioning for their goals ? Sanchez also got a little exposed here and there by getting too tight on their strikers. I do like the way that Vertonghen is getting forward more.

The bottom line though is that we won a match we had lost the last 2 seasons and it was only a contest because we went down to 10 men. I'll take it.
 

EastLondonYid

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2010
7,837
16,145
If poch persists with the Dier Sissoko pairing we are gonna come unstuck big time against better opponents than yesterday
 
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glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
Amen. The 'Alli can do no wrong' agenda is just as fucking tiring

We have other players.

WhoScored rated him same as Sissoko today, despite his 'two' assists. Mull that one over
So is the 'Dele is a fucking useless, bumbling idiot' agenda, which is far more prevalent on here than the 'Dele can do no wrong' agenda.
 
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