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Harry Winks - Leicester City

Frozen_Waffles

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2005
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Makes sense to me.

My guess would be he was thinking that with Henderson being the more experienced it would help Winks.

He didn't consider the fact that Henderson is a very average footballer. He is very much in the Mark Noble mould.
 

chinaman

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2003
17,974
12,423
My guess would be he was thinking that with Henderson being the more experienced it would help Winks.

He didn't consider the fact that Henderson is a very average footballer. He is very much in the Mark Noble mould.


Mark Noble is better than Henderson. Noble can score the occasional goal.
 

Clark28

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2016
2,269
13,040
A match between Tottenham and England would without doubt result in a Tottenham win.
this got me thinking, other team's back lines find it hard to shut down Kane, but could our back line do it?

Toby and Jan v Kane and Alli
 

hellava_tough

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2005
9,429
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Going to be a big player by the end of the season

Would love to have Barkley in the squad too

Kane, Alli, Barkley, Winks, Dier, Trippier, Rose - pretty much the England team lol :)
 

bomberH

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2005
28,454
168,207
You can't make this shit up. Ray Parlour on talksport saying Winks may leave in the transfer window to get more game time.

Parlour isn't even one of the more dislikeable pundits, he's just a twunt like Merson, but it just shows some of them have absolutely no awareness at all of what certain clubs/players' situations are. It's embarrassing. I had to turn it off, though that decision was made easier because listening to Alan Brazil's alcohol fuelled shite is often too much to listen to.
 

mark87

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2004
36,030
114,051
You can't make this shit up. Ray Parlour on talksport saying Winks may leave in the transfer window to get more game time.

Parlour isn't even one of the more dislikeable pundits, he's just a twunt like Merson, but it just shows some of them have absolutely no awareness at all of what certain clubs/players' situations are. It's embarrassing. I had to turn it off, though that decision was made easier because listening to Alan Brazil's alcohol fuelled shite is often too much to listen to.

It's pathetic. Next they'll be saying the kit man wants out to go to a bigger club. Anyone making headlines for us and all pundits try and get them out of the club.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
You can't make this shit up. Ray Parlour on talksport saying Winks may leave in the transfer window to get more game time.

Parlour isn't even one of the more dislikeable pundits, he's just a twunt like Merson, but it just shows some of them have absolutely no awareness at all of what certain clubs/players' situations are. It's embarrassing. I had to turn it off, though that decision was made easier because listening to Alan Brazil's alcohol fuelled shite is often too much to listen to.
More game time. :LOL: Soon he'll be begging for a night off.
 

hellava_tough

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2005
9,429
12,382
With Winks developing quickly, I dont think we will go for Barkley

Well there's an argument to say that they're different players; that Barkley players further forward

Haven't seen much of Barkley play for Everton, so can't say but I'm sure others on this site will clarify it
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
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Southgate is wrong on so many levels but I thought even he would understand that playing Dier alongside Winks with a back three would give Winks the platform to go forward. In addition playing with players who understand your game and know your strengths would most likely give the manager a better chance to see what Winks could do.

Winks got forward more in that England game and had to see less of the ball in deeper areas playing with Henderson than he did the week before in an identical formation (3421) playing next to Dier with Spurs away at Huddersfield. He also saw about 30% more of the ball, much more in forward areas, made more key passes and had a shot at goal, none of which he did playing net to Dier.

Winks with Henderson:

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 14.13.07.png


99 passes @ 96% - 3 key passes


Winks with Dier:

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 14.12.22.png


65 passes @87% - 1 key pass

Against a team like Lithuania, who just got deeper and deeper England (or Winks) really didn't need a defensive insurance man, they needed two CM's who could pivot and both look forwards and take a few risks. Henderson isn't great, but he's much more progressive and less risk averse and moves the ball quicker than Dier. And because he's more able to take the ball under pressure than Dier it didn't put as much pressure on Winks to have to drop so much to take the ball of the defenders looking for a conduit to play out.

As unfashionable and unpopular as this may be, but Henderson was a much better option next to Winks in that CM2 for that type of game.

Games in the future where England/Spurs may need a bit of defensive balance, that might be different.

The biggest problem for England Sunday night was how dreadfully inept the forward players (Rashford and Alli primarily) were at retaining possession and crafting chances.
 

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Charly***

no idea
Aug 20, 2008
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Against a team like Lithuania, who just got deeper and deeper England (or Winks) really didn't need a defensive insurance man, they needed two CM's who could pivot and both look forwards and take a few risks. Henderson isn't great, but he's much more progressive and less risk averse and moves the ball quicker than Dier. And because he's more able to take the ball under pressure than Dier it didn't put as much pressure on Winks to have to drop so much to take the ball of the defenders looking for a conduit to play out.

As unfashionable and unpopular as this may be, but Henderson was a much better option next to Winks in that CM2 for that type of game.

Games in the future where England/Spurs may need a bit of defensive balance, that might be different.

The biggest problem for England Sunday night was how dreadfully inept the forward players (Rashford and Alli primarily) were at retaining possession and crafting chances.

I agree Henderson isn't great but don't agree with the rest of that sentence. Dier passes forwards first time when it's on and spots those passes quickly, into the feet of players between the lines. Those type of passes are what we need to afford our AMs a bit of space. Against Slovenia (in Diers last England game) though none of the three behind the striker were the type of player to receive those kind of passes so they weren't on. Sterlings attempts to play there were like watching a kid playing Sunday league, he had no idea what positions to take up. Henderson does spray the ball around a bit more, spreading the play, which catches the eye, but he's not great at it & it's not that effective.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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I agree Henderson isn't great but don't agree with the rest of that sentence. Dier passes forwards first time when it's on and spots those passes quickly, into the feet of players between the lines. Those type of passes are what we need to afford our AMs a bit of space. Against Slovenia (in Diers last England game) though none of the three behind the striker were the type of player to receive those kind of passes so they weren't on. Sterlings attempts to play there were like watching a kid playing Sunday league, he had no idea what positions to take up. Henderson does spray the ball around a bit more, spreading the play, which catches the eye, but he's not great at it & it's not that effective.


Again, I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception and the reality are quite different. It's very fashionable to champion "our" boy over "their" boy on forums but if we are dispassionate about it, it doesn't always stack up.

You seem to want to ignore some decent factual evidence, in favour of the "your own eyes" concept?

There isn't really much that Dier does that is better than Henderson. If we take 15/16 for Dier (the season he played entirely in CM) and last season for Henderson, Henderson makes a staggering 65% more passes per 90 (85 per 90min to Dier's 56). Also making 65% more completed passes. Despite making so many more per game Henderson completes a higher percentage of those than Dier (86% to 83%). He makes 62% more key passes per 90 min, creates 63% more scoring chances per 90 min, 65% more assists per 90 min, 33% more forward passes per 90, and here's the kicker, he even makes 36% more tackles per 90 min.

Now, this isn't me "hating" Dier or having an "agenda" against him, but just trying to introduce some reality balance.

England were fucking atrocious the last few games that Dier played, and most of those games he was playing with players like Kane, Alli, Walker, Tripper etc who he plays with hundreds of times and every day in training.

As I said, Henderson isn't my idea of "great" but in a game like that on Sunday, he was much better than Dier has been, because he's more dynamic, sees and recycles much more of the ball, moves it quicker, more incisively and more accurately than Dier does, these are pretty much facts (see below), one of the reasons is that he is more comfortable than Dier receiving and passing under pressure.

And if you look at the Dier/Winks and Henderson/Winks maps again you'll see that while these aren't thew whole picture and some nuanced tactical variation must be factored in, what you can't say is that Henderson was "worse" for Winks's (or England's) game than Dier was.

Here's some stats which might make you re-evaluate your perceptions. I've included Wanyama in there for shits and giggles, because he also gets through more ball, gives it away less, makes more key passes and chances than Dier.

Screen Shot 2017-10-10 at 15.02.47.png


Screen Shot 2017-10-10 at 15.02.59.png
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760
You can't make this shit up. Ray Parlour on talksport saying Winks may leave in the transfer window to get more game time.

Parlour isn't even one of the more dislikeable pundits, he's just a twunt like Merson, but it just shows some of them have absolutely no awareness at all of what certain clubs/players' situations are. It's embarrassing. I had to turn it off, though that decision was made easier because listening to Alan Brazil's alcohol fuelled shite is often too much to listen to.

What the actual fuck Winks has just come back from a long-term injury and literally broken into the first team squad prior to that! :ROFLMAO:
 

Luka Van der Bale

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2011
6,041
13,611
Again, I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception and the reality are quite different. It's very fashionable to champion "our" boy over "their" boy on forums but if we are dispassionate about it, it doesn't always stack up.

You seem to want to ignore some decent factual evidence, in favour of the "your own eyes" concept?

There isn't really much that Dier does that is better than Henderson. If we take 15/16 for Dier (the season he played entirely in CM) and last season for Henderson, Henderson makes a staggering 65% more passes per 90 (85 per 90min to Dier's 56). Also making 65% more completed passes. Despite making so many more per game Henderson completes a higher percentage of those than Dier (86% to 83%). He makes 62% more key passes per 90 min, creates 63% more scoring chances per 90 min, 65% more assists per 90 min, 33% more forward passes per 90, and here's the kicker, he even makes 36% more tackles per 90 min.

Now, this isn't me "hating" Dier or having an "agenda" against him, but just trying to introduce some reality balance.

England were fucking atrocious the last few games that Dier played, and most of those games he was playing with players like Kane, Alli, Walker, Tripper etc who he plays with hundreds of times and every day in training.

As I said, Henderson isn't my idea of "great" but in a game like that on Sunday, he was much better than Dier has been, because he's more dynamic, sees and recycles much more of the ball, moves it quicker, more incisively and more accurately than Dier does, these are pretty much facts (see below), one of the reasons is that he is more comfortable than Dier receiving and passing under pressure.

And if you look at the Dier/Winks and Henderson/Winks maps again you'll see that while these aren't thew whole picture and some nuanced tactical variation must be factored in, what you can't say is that Henderson was "worse" for Winks's (or England's) game than Dier was.

Here's some stats which might make you re-evaluate your perceptions. I've included Wanyama in there for shits and giggles, because he also gets through more ball, gives it away less, makes more key passes and chances than Dier.

View attachment 33243

View attachment 33244
I don't disagree with your analysis of their work on the ball. Henderson gets forward and involved in attacks far more, and this lack of a disciplined deepest midfielder is a large part of the reason Liverpool have such a poor record defensively. I think you know yourself the tackles stat means nothing in itself. Henderson is instructed to press the man on the ball and cover ground when not in possession. Dier is far more likely to sit in and fill gaps. The tackles stat is a natural result of their differing styles of play, and certainly doesn't provide any evidence to suggest Henderson is better defensively than Dier. Whilst you're trying to imply it does, I think you know that.
 
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Charly***

no idea
Aug 20, 2008
4,209
7,052
Again, I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception and the reality are quite different. It's very fashionable to champion "our" boy over "their" boy on forums but if we are dispassionate about it, it doesn't always stack up.

...

Here's some stats which might make you re-evaluate your perceptions. I've included Wanyama in there for shits and giggles, because he also gets through more ball, gives it away less, makes more key passes and chances than Dier.

I don't hold as much store in stats as you do. Unless you're comparing two players in exactly the same set of circumstances (which will never happen in football; different team mates, different tactics etc) stats can be misleading. One example is Dier in 2015/2016 was playing a kind of hybrid DM/CD position, Henderson, despite being Klopps token DM played 2016/2017 without the same kind of tactical straight jacket.

To be honest, having Dier as DM opens up tactical options for defenders like Stones to carry the ball out and be covered which would be a decent option for an England coach to explore, although that's a different point.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I don't disagree with your analysis of their work on the ball. Henderson gets forward and involved in attacks far more, and this lack of a disciplined deepest midfielder is a large part of the reason Liverpool have such a poor record defensively. I think you know yourself the tackles stat means nothing in itself. Henderson is instructed to press the man on the ball and cover ground when not in possession. Dier is far more likely to sit in and fill gaps. The tackles stat is a natural result of their suffering styles of play, and certainly doesn't provide any evidence to suggest Henderson is better defensively than Dier. Whilst you're trying to imply it does, I think you know that.


OK, fair point about the tackles, I just threw that in as a bit of a kicker, and shouldn't distract from the argument which was nothing to do with his defensive capabilities, which I caveated in my first post. That argument being that Dier is in no way more progressive or incisive or better for tempo etc etc than Henderson. And was not worse for Wink's game.

Liverpool's problem aren't about Henderson per se and you know that, they are about a tactical approach that isn't quite being matched up with the ideal personnel for it.

Personally I think Henderson could easily do Dier's job for Spurs if coached by Poch to play the much less gung ho and more methodical approach that we play compared to Klopp's methods, which will expose any fragility or weaknesses in personnel, transversely, imagine how slow and ponderous Dier would look in Klopp's system, he's turned so easily defensively and offensively he's so risk averse he wouldn't suit the quick transition they try to play.

Wanyama stepped in and did everything better than Dier last year, as an example.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I don't hold as much store in stats as you do. Unless you're comparing two players in exactly the same set of circumstances (which will never happen in football; different team mates, different tactics etc) stats can be misleading. One example is Dier in 2015/2016 was playing a kind of hybrid DM/CD position, Henderson, despite being Klopps token DM played 2016/2017 without the same kind of tactical straight jacket.

To be honest, having Dier as DM opens up tactical options for defenders like Stones to carry the ball out and be covered which would be a decent option for an England coach to explore, although that's a different point.


So playing a ponderous CB in CM is better because it means a CB can swap places with him in game and introduce some more CB playing as CM type play ?

Great tactical option.
 
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