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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

spursfan77

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,957
IGSpur said:
I assume you mean the fans. If so yes maybe glacial. The more coaches, and people like the guy from Gladbach speak up maybe the more fans will listen, but things haven't changed much.

I and many other youth watchers views on this forum have been mocked or we're called 'experts' or deluded or biased or arrogant, but you get used to it. I just tend to get less involved in and rather post more informative stuff as it gets tiring debating the same points, but credit where it's due some people will continue to argue the point.

An example somewhat related to the Gladbach story. A load of people rated Milos, I and others dared suggest he could be squad player, I might have even suggested we could have used him instead of buying McCarthy or Dier, or that he may one day be better, I can't remember the specifics.I remember people writing mocking comments that I didn't respond to 'can you believe the experts think Milos is good enough for so and so'. Dier is 2 year groups older than Milos, and I like him as a squad player don't get me wrong, but I think he has his flaws, and I've seen if you criticise Dier people aren't happy, but he serves a great purpose as a utility player.

Milos couldn't see he would get a chance here (surprise surprise). As we've read the German clubs keep an eye on top English talent and they picked up Milos. He had to adapt to a new club and country. For whatever reason some of the Spurs fans saw his initial struggle and quickly posted here to show they were right. I don't know what enjoyment Spurs fans get from seeing a Spurs product fail, but there you go. Anyway eventually and as expected Milos starting establishing himself. I was reading a Werder Bremen forum tonight and they love him, they keep wanting him to sign a contract, someone described him as a 'genius' another as their best player, but mostly very very positive reviews. They're also impressed with how he can play anywhere in a back 3. WB aren't doing great but their defense is one of the best.

Now they're actually talking about looking forward to an English club buying him so they can get a load of money especially as he is homegrown. The Germans are actually taking our players and wanting to sell them back for massive profit. Anyway, Milos now has got into Serbia's squad and could be going to the World Cup.

Funnily enough he is now in a similar position to Dier despite being 2 years younger. Dier isn't a guaranteed starter for us if everyone was fit, and all I ever suggested was Milos to get chances as a squad player. Could Milos do what Dier has been doing for us, I have no doubt in my mind he could. Dier is playing at a better club, because the English club, as the Germans say can't bring their own players through, and would rather look abroad, and buy. The Germans do what they've been talking about recently and snap up the the English academy player and do what the PL can't do. If we had shown patience with Milos and given him his chance with better players around him, and in a comfortable setting he may be even better than he is now. Ironically Milos counts as homegrown while Dier doesn't and so would have brought even more value. I can't predict how either of those 2 will go on to develop, but the attitude and stick given to people who dared to rate our homegrown player is quite sad. That aspect seems to have changed but maybe it was because Milos was a sore sport and people get defensive when you question the club or management.

Fortunately as we haven't had loans we haven't had to read this as much, but you still get the ill informed 'if so and so can't get into that Championship team then clearly they're not good enough' which is so depressing to read.

You still get the belief that any talented player will get a chance and the cream will always rise to the top. There is still the belief that mangers will always give chance if a young player is good enough and there is no reason he would not despite there being many reasons as to why PL managers don't give academy players. Even coaches from abroad see it, but PL fans are generally blind to it. Though I feel that is somewhat changing and people are beginning to see a problem, but realistically no one can change anything but the managers, so whether or not fans change their opinion won't affect who starts.

Anyway I think views are slow to change. A lot of people still believe young English players are brutes with no skill and the PL is footballing nirvana that can't be reached unless you are World Class forgetting that everyone started somewhere. The recent success of English youth football has helped but I think ultimately while most would love a World Class academy player like Kane to come through they are reluctant to see it happen at the risk of results and will happily go for the easier option of signing foreign players and justify the academy player not getting a chance with all kind of reasons
Click to expand...

From memory, the majority of us that saw veljkovic play thought the club had made a mistake letting him go. I don't think there were many on here who thought the club was in the right in letting him go.
 
M

mjay

Member
Aug 26, 2013
41
44
@Igspurs ... Great post ... This should be the vision at every club ... Not just Spurs ...
I feel this is an English mentality .. They just aspire to have a team of home grown products but they rarely trust in them ...
Take an example from Cricket itself ... Virat Kohli was a good talent .. nothing exceptional .. but he managed to get into the senior team and became exceptional over time ... Ian Bell is a brilliant batsman infact he was a star in a couple of youth world cups ... Yet he was never promoted to the senior team quickly ... By the time he got into the English senior team ... The Indian team had like 3 or 4 well established from the u18 team who had played alongside him ...
 
Lilbaz

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
IGSpur said:
I assume you mean the fans. If so yes maybe glacial. The more coaches, and people like the guy from Gladbach speak up maybe the more fans will listen, but things haven't changed much.

I and many other youth watchers views on this forum have been mocked or we're called 'experts' or deluded or biased or arrogant, but you get used to it. I just tend to get less involved in and rather post more informative stuff as it gets tiring debating the same points, but credit where it's due some people will continue to argue the point.

An example somewhat related to the Gladbach story. A load of people rated Milos, I and others dared suggest he could be squad player, I might have even suggested we could have used him instead of buying McCarthy or Dier, or that he may one day be better, I can't remember the specifics.I remember people writing mocking comments that I didn't respond to 'can you believe the experts think Milos is good enough for so and so'. Dier is 2 year groups older than Milos, and I like him as a squad player don't get me wrong, but I think he has his flaws, and I've seen if you criticise Dier people aren't happy, but he serves a great purpose as a utility player.

Milos couldn't see he would get a chance here (surprise surprise). As we've read the German clubs keep an eye on top English talent and they picked up Milos. He had to adapt to a new club and country. For whatever reason some of the Spurs fans saw his initial struggle and quickly posted here to show they were right. I don't know what enjoyment Spurs fans get from seeing a Spurs product fail, but there you go. Anyway eventually and as expected Milos starting establishing himself. I was reading a Werder Bremen forum tonight and they love him, they keep wanting him to sign a contract, someone described him as a 'genius' another as their best player, but mostly very very positive reviews. They're also impressed with how he can play anywhere in a back 3. WB aren't doing great but their defense is one of the best.

Now they're actually talking about looking forward to an English club buying him so they can get a load of money especially as he is homegrown. The Germans are actually taking our players and wanting to sell them back for massive profit. Anyway, Milos now has got into Serbia's squad and could be going to the World Cup.

Funnily enough he is now in a similar position to Dier despite being 2 years younger. Dier isn't a guaranteed starter for us if everyone was fit, and all I ever suggested was Milos to get chances as a squad player. Could Milos do what Dier has been doing for us, I have no doubt in my mind he could. Dier is playing at a better club, because the English club, as the Germans say can't bring their own players through, and would rather look abroad, and buy. The Germans do what they've been talking about recently and snap up the the English academy player and do what the PL can't do. If we had shown patience with Milos and given him his chance with better players around him, and in a comfortable setting he may be even better than he is now. Ironically Milos counts as homegrown while Dier doesn't and so would have brought even more value. I can't predict how either of those 2 will go on to develop, but the attitude and stick given to people who dared to rate our homegrown player is quite sad. That aspect seems to have changed but maybe it was because Milos was a sore sport and people get defensive when you question the club or management.

Fortunately as we haven't had loans we haven't had to read this as much, but you still get the ill informed 'if so and so can't get into that Championship team then clearly they're not good enough' which is so depressing to read.

You still get the belief that any talented player will get a chance and the cream will always rise to the top. There is still the belief that mangers will always give chance if a young player is good enough and there is no reason he would not despite there being many reasons as to why PL managers don't give academy players. Even coaches from abroad see it, but PL fans are generally blind to it. Though I feel that is somewhat changing and people are beginning to see a problem, but realistically no one can change anything but the managers, so whether or not fans change their opinion won't affect who starts.

Anyway I think views are slow to change. A lot of people still believe young English players are brutes with no skill and the PL is footballing nirvana that can't be reached unless you are World Class forgetting that everyone started somewhere. The recent success of English youth football has helped but I think ultimately while most would love a World Class academy player like Kane to come through they are reluctant to see it happen at the risk of results and will happily go for the easier option of signing foreign players and justify the academy player not getting a chance with all kind of reasons
Click to expand...

Good to hear milos is doing well.
 
coy-spurs1882

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,999
10,503
spursfan77 said:
From memory, the majority of us that saw veljkovic play thought the club had made a mistake letting him go. I don't think there were many on here who thought the club was in the right in letting him go.
Click to expand...
Don't think we had other choices when he rejected the contract though
 
C

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Fact is there will be some very good youth let go in next 2 or 3 years.Poch keeps a tight squad of 24/25.We are very close to the point of there being no dead wood in the squad ,possible the first time this has happened since I’ve supported spurs.The possible only dead wood next summer may be Nkoudou.Even the likes of Onomah is teetering on the edge.Especially If we bring in Barkley or another CM which I believe we will.The standard of the squad is now so high that any kid breaking through literally has to be international class to have a chance.With the abundance of quality youth we have it’s just inevitable that some very good players will be let go in future.some very hard decisions will have to be made.How long can KWP be a 3rd choice.He will has to surpass trippier to have a chance which I believe he will.Ccv the same ,I guess he will be in direct competition with foyth.It will be very sad to lose some of these players and the only upside is we will be getting £10-15m at time for them at least.
 
J

JamieSpursCommunityUser

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
1,889
9,995
coys200 said:
Fact is there will be some very good youth let go in next 2 or 3 years.Poch keeps a tight squad of 24/25.We are very close to the point of there being no dead wood in the squad ,possible the first time this has happened since I’ve supported spurs.The possible only dead wood next summer may be Nkoudou.Even the likes of Onomah is teetering on the edge.Especially If we bring in Barkley or another CM which I believe we will.The standard of the squad is now so high that any kid breaking through literally has to be international class to have a chance.With the abundance of quality youth we have it’s just inevitable that some very good players will be let go in future.some very hard decisions will have to be made.How long can KWP be a 3rd choice.He will has to surpass trippier to have a chance which I believe he will.Ccv the same ,I guess he will be in direct competition with foyth.It will be very sad to lose some of these players and the only upside is we will be getting £10-15m at time for them at least.
Click to expand...

It's possible due to the sheer volume of players we're producing, but there will still be opportunities for the very best.

There is usually a natural attrition of squad players leaving each year to get more playing time.

Trippier will be off if Aurier takes the amount of minutes Walker was before the bust up, or if Poch sees KWP outperform him in training.

Llorente, Dembele, and perhaps even Vertonghen will have been moved on in 3 years, we'll want to mould an understudy or rotation player to each if we can. ie Winks replaces Dembele as no.1, TOB or Onomah replaces Winks as no.2?

Skipp could one day replace Dier or Wanyama as one of the two DMs if one becomes unsatisfied with their minutes.

Sissoko will be sold if Barkley comes imo, despite his renaissance.

Eriksen seems happy though imo wants to play for Barcelona one day if got the chance - he's 26 this summer and will have 2 years on his contract. We might fight to keep him this summer, but 2019 we'd have to let him go if not been re-signed.

Rose I imagine we'd be happy to move on if we could get Sessegnon. If Rose or Sessegnon ousts Davies again, would he want to stay?

It will take meticulous forward planning and good judgement, but I think that's our model now. To promote youngsters to depth roles and allow them to compete and move up as squad players move on.
 
tommyt

tommyt

SC Supporter
Jul 22, 2005
6,190
11,079
Chris Flynn said:
Kind of the point money people dont get. Ive rarely seen a kid who grew up wanting of nothing becoming anything special in the real world beyond what their parants sorted them with (old tie club etc) but ive seen more people who grew up with nothing have the hunger to make something of themselves. A bit of advesory and drive is a fundimental part of driving people on. Paying kids 25k a year is basically going to destroy them as footballers and its irresponsible. How will they cope with life after that runs out and they cant get a club at 24?
Click to expand...

A friend of mine is a psychiatric nurse and years ago used to work in a hostel in North London with adults who had drug and alcohol problems. He said that the amount of young men who had been ditched by clubs as they weren't deemed good enough was unreal. They'd made the millions in their heads, bought the cars and houses for themselves and their families; had been sold the dream but just didn't make it for whatever reason and it destroyed them. Not sure what the point is, just really sad suppose.
 
Blake Griffin

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,149
38,347
i doubt any of those who aren't working with poch day-to-day will be considered, amos and georgiou are the only ones full time with the 1st team at the moment.
 
C

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
JamieSpursCommunityUser said:
It's possible due to the sheer volume of players we're producing, but there will still be opportunities for the very best.

There is usually a natural attrition of squad players leaving each year to get more playing time.

Trippier will be off if Aurier takes the amount of minutes Walker was before the bust up, or if Poch sees KWP outperform him in training.

Llorente, Dembele, and perhaps even Vertonghen will have been moved on in 3 years, we'll want to mould an understudy or rotation player to each if we can. ie Winks replaces Dembele as no.1, TOB or Onomah replaces Winks as no.2?

Skipp could one day replace Dier or Wanyama as one of the two DMs if one becomes unsatisfied with their minutes.

Sissoko will be sold if Barkley comes imo, despite his renaissance.

Eriksen seems happy though imo wants to play for Barcelona one day if got the chance - he's 26 this summer and will have 2 years on his contract. We might fight to keep him this summer, but 2019 we'd have to let him go if not been re-signed.

Rose I imagine we'd be happy to move on if we could get Sessegnon. If Rose or Sessegnon ousts Davies again, would he want to stay?

It will take meticulous forward planning and good judgement, but I think that's our model now. To promote youngsters to depth roles and allow them to compete and move up as squad players move on.
Click to expand...

But you’re talking like we aren’t gonna sign any players ,which of course we will.I think the most significant point is we now have virtually no dead wood and the fact Poch likes a relatively small squad.In reality if we bring one player a season through that is a lot .Last season was winks this season KWP so far.
 
mill

mill

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
10,402
37,133
Northernspurs said:
Where is he know...has he made it
Click to expand...
Werder Bremen, he’s been playing regularly since about halfway through last season in a back 3. Has he made it? Hard to say, they’re struggling, bottom 3 I think, and I’ve not seen them play so no idea of his performances
 
IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
spursfan77 said:
From memory, the majority of us that saw veljkovic play thought the club had made a mistake letting him go. I don't think there were many on here who thought the club was in the right in letting him go.
Click to expand...

I've definitely seen a lot of digs about him, which I don't get. I wish all of our youth players well, if they do well it looks good on us and our academy. I can only imagine that people worry that some may do a Pogba and make the club look stupid, which I don't get, that wouldn't be their fault. I'd only start wishing bad if they join a rival, but still ti would be our fault for letting them go or not making them want to stay.

Locotoro said:
Does anyone know why he rejected the contract?

Was it money or the promise of opportunity?
Click to expand...

My understanding is he didn't see an opportunity here, which considering he went to Poch's first preseason and won the u20 World Cup, is sad he felt that way, but can't blame him when we sign others. I guess it's like Bentaleb they wanted football we couldn't offer. Guess no ones faults really but sad that he didn't feel he could break in or think he'd ever get a chance. Foreign players are less likely to stick around waiting, but eh definitely would have been an asset in this squad that cost nothing, would be worth a lot, homegrown and an academy boy
 
IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
coys200 said:
The standard of the squad is now so high that any kid breaking through literally has to be international class to have a chance.
Click to expand...

See this is the problem and this is why England is as it is. How do you define international class? ability?, experience? mix of both? When it suits us, we think Winks is international class because of his ability while other fans thought he was too inexperienced to be international class.

Also who's international class? How do you expect an academy player to be international class when they've never played a game. I can think of plenty of academy players that have never played a first team match that I think have more ability than some international players, yet they wouldn't get a chance in our first team, and they wouldn't be call up for England.

If we're talking Spain international class, what we're basically saying is an academy player has to be World Class in order to break into a squad that only as one World Class outfield player, who ironically is an academy product. What kind of expectation is that? No other league ro country expect players to have to be international class before they get chances, I know this as we have better players than them. When KWP puts in a motm performace on debut it's still not enough so look how ridiculous the expectations are. I mean according to that logic Messi before he had even made an appearance for Barcelona, would have to have been better than Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Iniesta, Larsson, Maxi Lopez and Giuly. How on earth could anyone have thought Messi would be better than them without him having appeared. Yet they introduced Messi and gave him a chance to prove himself despite all of that talent because they saw a special player and made a pathway. Not saying Edwards is Messi, and yes I'm sure Edwards isn't deemed physically ready, but it feels like if that was Spurs, Alli, Lamela, Son, Eriksen, N'Koudou would all have to be struck down with injury and then they would still probably stick Sissoko there. I'm sure some people will miss the point I'm making but imagine someone lesser than Messi then coming through a top team

You suggest an academy player could be as good or better than PL players and it's not possible. I said Veljkvoic in my opinion was better than McCarthy now, and f not he will be better than him in the future, but people weren't willing to see him get a chance over signing McCarthy, because it was a ludicrous suggestion. James McCarthy really? Veljkvoic might not even go onto be a top top player but I'd still have him in this team over McCarthy I'd be inclined to see what peopel think now. These posts are still out there, signing average over giving our best players chances.

People have scoffed when I once said we didn't need Clasie as we had Carroll. Yet Carroll has doing really well at Swansea and geneally in the PL wheil Clasie has had to be loaned out. CLasie was the latest fad at the time

I even said that I would rather we had kept Mason than signing Schneiderlin for 25m, which was greeted with disdain. Well if everyone loves the, where are they now, I don't see Schneiderlin doing much better than Mason, and Mason hasn't even played for a year. I'm sure someone will make an excuse for Schneiderlin and Clasie while simultaneously ignoring how poorly the development of Mason and Carroll was handled in their key years.

I am all for signings, but top quality signings, as we likely will have as good or better players in the academy than 80% of signings we're linked to if they were given a chance, yet it is that 80% that are given time by fans to prove themselves. Why are we expecting academy players to be top class when they get chances and show little patience, when we're not even signing top class players but giving them our patience?
 
coy-spurs1882

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,999
10,503
i can remember that LLM from ja606 shared a story of the club nearly gave veljkovic the debut (or as a sub, can't remember) in a match against yanited, but due to traffic problems (?) he didn't make it something like that. i read that a few years ago so don't read it into too much...
 
IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Open game. We're slightly winning midfield battle. We conceded as Omalabi was robbed at the back.

They've done well on counter. They had another one on one which DeBie saved. And hit post.

We've hit bar twice from Reynolds and Hinds. Also looked like Maghoma should have had pen.

Hinds, BLF and Griffiths our best players. Reynolds playing well

Standing in amongst loads of Swedish spurs fans. Don't know what they're saying but heard then say Hinds a few times so assume impressed.

Also very windy. We're gonna go against wind this half so would have been good to go in level
 
K

kmk

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2014
4,192
28,004
IGSpur said:
Open game. We're slightly winning midfield battle. We conceded as Omalabi was robbed at the back.

They've done well on counter. They had another one on one which DeBie saved. And hit post.

We've hit bar twice from Reynolds and Hinds. Also looked like Maghoma should have had pen.

Hinds, BLF and Griffiths our best players. Reynolds playing well

Standing in amongst loads of Swedish spurs fans. Don't know what they're saying but heard then say Hinds a few times so assume impressed.

Also very windy. We're gonna go against wind this half so would have been good to go in level
Click to expand...

Who are we playing? Is this the U18s?

Edit, just seen on Twitter that we are playing Fulham U18s at home.
 
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