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Will we win a trophy under Poch?

Will Poch win us a trophy?

  • Yes - Poch will get us some silver

    Votes: 143 62.4%
  • No - we'll always be the nearly men

    Votes: 54 23.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 32 14.0%

  • Total voters
    229

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
I know what he's saying, but the rest of that post is bollocks. Saying "no-one will care two hoots about cup wins down the line" is the exact 100% opposite of the truth.

The only thing which will show in the record books, which will inspire future generations and which will form part of the rich history of the club, is winning trophies. It's the top four finishes and the CL knockout stage exits that won't be recorded, that no-one will remember, that no-one will give two hoots about.

Everyone knows Poch is prioritising the League and CL and that's perfectly understandable given they are the tougher games and bigger rewards. The problem isn't the relative weighting of importance - it's the history of writing the domestic cups off completely, and the attitude of some fans that 1, the cups aren't important in any way and 2, that they're actually somehow an inconvenience to us because we're trying to win bigger pots.

The hubris of this thinking is astonishing - our recent history shows that we have won absolutely fuck all! We are not United, Chelsea or Arsenal, who can justifiably say they have a recent history of winning these cups and so can be excused in saying they're now pushing for the bigger targets. We can't just suddenly decide we're an uber club who are too big for the cups - we're not.

We're not going to win the league. We're definitely not going to win the CL. We do need to keep finishing in the top four for a variety of reasons. We should be looking at the domestic cups as the perfect platforms to achieve real success, and to launch the club into this new era of becoming a true uber club. We can afford to win the precisely because we're not going to win the other prizes. We can win them without damaging our top four hopes. We can win them because the fans have been suffering for years watching our rivals win everything. We can win them to get our players some damn medals and to get rid of the millstone around our necks that says you'll never win anything with Tottenham.

We are not the massive club some people (including Poch) seem to think we are - not yet - and the domestic cups are not below us, as some people seem to think.

Totally agree that the domestic cups are not below us and we'd all want to win one.

But.

We can't win the league, yet we can win a cup, why? There are still just as tough fixtures in the cups as the league.

You keep saying we give up in the cups. We've been to a final and a semi the last couple of years. Are you saying we lost those games because we thought they were beneath us?

Or maybe we sometimes just fuck up and get beat. League or cups. Only difference is the league it's not the end of the world till the last few games.

Last night we fucked up and lost. Not because the league cup was beneath us but because we fucked up.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
I think the biggest problem is that finishing 3rd and 2nd in consecutive seasons has fooled the majority of our fanbase into believing we were actually realistic contenders, when at no point in either season did we ever get close enough to realistically challenge. and now we, Tottenham Hotspur that have won all of 2 trophies in the last 25 years, seem to have this attitude that domestic cups (and the Europa League for that matter) are somehow beneath us. it would be a stupid mentality to have, even if we had been winning more lately, as Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool all seem to find the time to take them more seriously than we do, but to have it while we win absolutely nothing just blows my mind.

I completely respect the hell out of Pochettino for having the balls to go on record as saying he's only really that interested in the PL and CL, but which manager ever wins either of those without ever having won anything else before? there's a reason why Jose Mourinho, an epic **** but one of the most successful managers of the modern era, always targets the League Cup as a way of instilling a winning mentality into his team. by constantly sending out the message that the cups really aren't that big a deal, I really think we're going about things the "wrong" way.
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
Blah blah blah. If we didn't fall to pieces for 20 minutes tonight we'd have won and everyone would be patting each other on the back.
Last sunday people were talking about winning the league now we'll never win a trophy?

Really shouldn't be suprised at how bipolar spurs fans can be. Some of us are real drama queens.

Will we win a trophy? I hope so, lets see at the end of the season.
Perhaps everyone needs to ask why it all fell to pieces for 20 mins how unprofessional is that of the team and management.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Perhaps everyone needs to ask why it all fell to pieces for 20 mins how unprofessional is that of the team and management.

We have and will. This is not unique to the cups though is what i'm saying. We do it in the league and cl (last season) too. So to say it was because we don't care about domestic cups is unjustified.
 

Database

Active Member
Dec 17, 2014
403
612
I'm sure we'll win something with Pochettino. Probably League + CL double this season. Hold on hope. :love: Harry Kane scoring over 30 league goals and Dele Alli about 20 goals. We will be very unlucky not to win anything with those two in the same team.

Because Dele's goalscoring record I won't believe Poch will play him deeper after Dembele & Wanyama are back. Madness. Last season Dele scored 18 league goals, how many pure strikers can do that? Not many. Midfielders? Frank Lampard maybe.
 

Tit&Ham

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2012
809
1,699
For the next 3 years the league is most important. Establish ourselves as a top 3 team then a lot of silverware will come automatically.

Prioritizing Cups at this moment could jeopardize our league position. Getting one trophy now and potentially none in the future.
I would say we are calculating risks at the moment: Field a team with a good chance to win, but saving players and increasing the probability to lose. I'm all for it.

That doesn't mean we cannot get a trophy now and in many ways it would be very important for the players and also the press. Just give us the title and we all shut up :D
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
We have and will. This is not unique to the cups though is what i'm saying. We do it in the league and cl (last season) too. So to say it was because we don't care about domestic cups is unjustified.

But when we look at ourselves and try to imagine that we are now the next Utd or Chelsea with that winning mentality, last night showed just how we are not.
Don't get me wrong the club have pushed themselves forward in recent times and the club is developing along solid lines, but that was fucking shit and totally avoidable against almost relegation fodder.
While I can see the picture emerging in front of us I can also see the images of our past of performances like last night all too common, and realise we are still some way off winning the league or anything for that matter.
 

smallsnc

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2017
699
1,237
No because you can not win every game in the league, isn't that obvious? In a cup game you win or your out, you don't get a chance to recover next week. So you can't give a half arsed effort against rivals and expect good things. Shit happens when you relax in your mind because you think a game is won or not important.

Just out of curiosity, how many of the players that played yesterday consider West Ham rivals do you think? I only ask because I am not from London (as most of those players aren't) and West Ham to me is just a mid table club. I don't have the history or the fact that I might see their fans on a daily basis. In fact, I have only met a handful of West Ham supporters in my life.

As far as the players go, there is no way they can reach maximum intensity every match. There are matches that mean more. We just played at RM and Liverpool before the biggest crowd ever to see a PL match. We have ManU and then RM coming up next week. We were obviously resting players, which regardless of what anyone says, means the match is not as important as the ones before and after to someone. We are not at the level that we can compete on 4 fronts with the number of injuries combined with our squad depth. I am OK with prioritizing the league and CL over the Cups though I still hated to lose yesterday.

My only question is are those that want the Cups prioritized now willing to sacrifice league points or CL knockout qualification to earn that domestic cup silverware?
 

onthetwo

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2006
4,583
3,407
Its a good question. I felt like he mishandled the question about it vis-a-vis other competitions in the run-up to last nights game and would much rather hed emphasised the importance of it for the fringe players to show their value and stake a claim for a starting berth.
But he gets pretty much everything else right so im not going to be too critical.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Just out of curiosity, how many of the players that played yesterday consider West Ham rivals do you think? I only ask because I am not from London (as most of those players aren't) and West Ham to me is just a mid table club. I don't have the history or the fact that I might see their fans on a daily basis. In fact, I have only met a handful of West Ham supporters in my life.

As far as the players go, there is no way they can reach maximum intensity every match. There are matches that mean more. We just played at RM and Liverpool before the biggest crowd ever to see a PL match. We have ManU and then RM coming up next week. We were obviously resting players, which regardless of what anyone says, means the match is not as important as the ones before and after to someone. We are not at the level that we can compete on 4 fronts with the number of injuries combined with our squad depth. I am OK with prioritizing the league and CL over the Cups though I still hated to lose yesterday.

My only question is are those that want the Cups prioritized now willing to sacrifice league points or CL knockout qualification to earn that domestic cup silverware?

That's not really a fair question. The real question is would you sacrifice cl knockout qualification and league points for a place in the 5th round of the league cup.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
Regarding this season, we will not win the CL or the PL. So we have just the FA Cup to aim for. I cannot see us winning that either because Poch will put out an half arsed side for the quarter finals and fuck that up as well in the hope of reeling in a fifteen point gap on Citeh.

His deep down belief that we absolutely must prioritize the CL or PL is misleading the players, fans and Club in my opinion. Fergie started his reign at Yanited with an FA Cup win, he didn't as far as i recollect tell Martin Edwards and the Stretford End, "no fuck that, let's hit the big time this season in the European Cup or win the Division One title.

Fergie's Fourth Season after three trophy-less seasons:

1989-90: The breakthrough season. Signings of Paul Ince, Gary Pallister, Mike Phelan and Neil Webb are making no discernible difference to league form. Ferguson’s worst day comes in a 5-1 defeat to Manchester City and fan holds sign up saying, ‘3 YEARS OF EXCUSES AND IT’S STILL C**P - TA RA FERGIE’ after home defeat to Crystal Palace. But Mark Robins’ goal at Forest begins run in FA Cup that ends in Wembley glory.

LEAGUE: 13th. FA CUP: Winners. LEAGUE CUP: 3rd Round.



Poch needs to be more conservative with his ambitions, or at least play his cards closer to his chest, if not we will become the laughing stock of football.


Flame away.

We finish this season 13th and win the FA Cup and we have gone backwards in my opinion. We'd be more likely to retain Poch and the players after a third successive title challenge and no trophies. That's how football is now. I long for a trophy but a singular League Cup (which from here we still had no guarantees of winning even if #1 priority) is not going to change Poch's legacy, see Ramos and Graham.

Arsenal have won 3 FA Cups in 4 years but the place is still toxic, they pay much higher wages and have more players wanting out than us! Adds perspective IMHO. Surely that flys in the face of everything said in here?

The guy saying no one remembers the Newcastle Keegan team is an idiot, clearly many do, including him. Bet he doesn't remember George Graham's 98/99 league cup conquerors! We are making waves, hence why everyone wants to talk us down. I'll wait and see how the season pans out before slating Poch here. People would still find something to say if we won the league, comes with the territory of being a threat, we need to develop a thick skin for now.

The thing is Poch put a team out last night that was more than capable, the lads let us down by dropping their effort and concentration levels, helped by West Ham lulling them in by being utter shit first half!

Hopefully an important lesson learned, if we get a good result on Saturday it will really help get over this. I'd rather us still be in, but it is worth noting now we have avoided a punishing schedule in what is already one of the hardest times of the season. I hope the big teams all make the semis for that reason.

I DO think Poch wants to win trophies*, I just think he wants us to be the best team in the country and puts that above anything else. Naive maybe, but I've enjoyed the ride so far!

*every single big side rotated in this cup, disrespecting it, difference is the rest just scraped through and we didn't.
 
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Database

Active Member
Dec 17, 2014
403
612
Numbers don't lie, Spurs win something in every decade. Only Spurs and Manchester United have won something in every last 7 (?) decades.

Wow. Now I'm referring us "Spurs". :eek: Premier League and FIFA (game) started using that nickname over Tottenham Hotspur maybe 2011 or something like that... Anybody knows why? Is it because Tottenham wanted more global name or what? Just asking if somebody really knows why...
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
Which is mainly what people are talking about. The team was fine last night (the only difference is I would've had Kane on the bench, given no-one else in that team has actually scored more than one goal this season).

The problem is the hubristic attitude which pervades the club, but most importantly (and strangely) the fans, which has decided that winning a major domestic trophy is somehow beneath us - and all in aid of some pie in the Sky dream of winning one of two trophies we are incredibly unlikely to win.

Going out of the League Cup provides almost no advantage to the club whatsoever, and for Spurs fans, who have seen the club win the square root of fuck all for over 25 years, to be dismissing it as some kind of unimportant hindrance to the club is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a modern football age full of ridiculousness.

This game coming in between 2 Real Madrid games and Liverpool and Utd in the PL (for which the squad was already stretched) was not a hindrance? A 2-legged semi final straight off the back of a punishing Xmas period is not a hindrance?

I agree with you that rendering it unimportant is indeed ridiculous, but so is saying it has no effect on a schedule. I wanted us to win it but now we're out there are benefits. Mourinho last season whinged on and on about the punishing schedule, which derailed his PL campaign, luckily he had the EL lifeline.

Also you say we have won the square root of fuck all for 25 years, and yet we've won this 'major domestic trophy' twice in that period o_O
 
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DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
Just out of curiosity, how many of the players that played yesterday consider West Ham rivals do you think? I only ask because I am not from London (as most of those players aren't) and West Ham to me is just a mid table club. I don't have the history or the fact that I might see their fans on a daily basis. In fact, I have only met a handful of West Ham supporters in my life.

As far as the players go, there is no way they can reach maximum intensity every match. There are matches that mean more. We just played at RM and Liverpool before the biggest crowd ever to see a PL match. We have ManU and then RM coming up next week. We were obviously resting players, which regardless of what anyone says, means the match is not as important as the ones before and after to someone. We are not at the level that we can compete on 4 fronts with the number of injuries combined with our squad depth. I am OK with prioritizing the league and CL over the Cups though I still hated to lose yesterday.

My only question is are those that want the Cups prioritized now willing to sacrifice league points or CL knockout qualification to earn that domestic cup silverware?

Probably hardly any of them see West ham as rivals, the problem is, to West ham we are their rivals. And the likes of Noble would have been getting them right u for It. I have lots of West ham fans in my football team and they are not letting me hear the end of it.

It's like when we beat arsenal 5-1 in the carling Cup, to them they probably weren't too bothered but to us it meant everything. This is everything to West ham.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
That's not really a fair question. The real question is would you sacrifice cl knockout qualification and league points for a place in the 5th round of the league cup.
that question suggests it has to be one or the other. which we all know not to be the case.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
We finish this season 13th and win the FA Cup and we have gone backwards in my opinion. We'd be more likely to retain Poch and the players after a third successive title challenge and no trophies. That's how football is now. I long for a trophy but a singular League Cup (which from here we still had no guarantees of winning even if #1 priority) is not going to change Poch's legacy, see Ramos and Graham.

Arsenal have won 3 FA Cups in 4 years but the place is still toxic, they pay much higher wages and have more players wanting out than us! Adds perspective IMHO. Surely that flys in the face of everything said in here?

The guy saying no one remembers the Newcastle Keegan team is an idiot, clearly many do, including him. Bet he doesn't remember George Graham's 98/99 league cup conquerors! We are making waves, hence why everyone wants to talk us down. I'll wait and see how the season pans out before slating Poch here. People would still find something to say if we won the league, comes with the territory of being a threat, we need to develop a thick skin for now.

The thing is Poch put a team out last night that was more than capable, the lads let us down by dropping their effort and concentration levels, helped by West Ham lulling them in by being utter shit first half!

Hopefully an important lesson learned, if we get a good result on Saturday it will really help get over this. I'd rather us still be in, but it is worth noting now we have avoided a punishing schedule in what is already one of the hardest times of the season. I hope the big teams all make the semis for that reason.

I DO think Poch wants to win trophies*, I just think he wants us to be the best team in the country and puts that above anything else. Naive maybe, but I've enjoyed the ride so far!

*every single big side rotated in this cup, disrespecting it, difference is the rest just scraped through and we didn't.
why would we finish 13th though? this whole "would you rather Top 4 and CL qualification or win a cup and plummet down the leagues into oblivion" argument makes no sense whatsoever. we can win cups AND still finish Top 4 this season.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,907
78,644
When we won the league cup in 2008, I believe many of us thought it was the stepping stone to the next stage. However, we got hammered by Birmingham 4-1 and went on a truly dreadful run of form that lasted almost a year, leading us to sack the manager and have another squad overhaul. So people saying a league cup trophy would instill confidence to win more is not necessarily correct. Like Kobe Bryant said to Kane on Sunday, when you win the first one, it gets harder!

I'd rather us prioritise the FA Cup, especially as we could be playing a final at home. The League Cup for me rests purely down to the luck of the draw like we did in 2014/15, if you find yourself in the semi final then you can shift more focus towards it. But if you get a tricky fixture in the early rounds then don't risk any injuries, especially when you have a very tough run of fixtures. CL & PL rule the roost.

As long as we bounce back and continue our rise on the other fronts, Poch will have some silverware to show for it all.
 
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