Match Ratings Ratings vs Dortmund

Bus-Conductor · Nov 22, 2017

JimmyG2 said:
He hesitated and showed him too much of the goal on his right hand side
Don't want him dropped or sold but he was at fault.
it's not a capital offence but whatever.

He didn’t just hesitate, he took a step back, it was terrible goal keeping. Just offered up the whole goal.

Hengy1 · Nov 22, 2017

degoose said:
It was Aurier at fault as he let Aube stay on side. Lloris did not have much of a chance and the striker had a huge amount of goal to go for as nobody was near him to put him off and cut his choices down.

Completely ignoring the fact Rose was also playing him onside too

smallsnc · Nov 22, 2017

Hengy1 said:
Completely ignoring the fact Rose was also playing him onside too

Aurier and Rose were at fault for holding Aube on side for his first chance on the through ball not the actual goal.

Everlasting Seconds · Nov 22, 2017

thinktank said:
Second half was much more cohesive.

Poch got them in at halftime and organised their heads more; they came out with a much more defined 532 and we performed better for it, as a team.

Sure, absolutely. I just wasn't floored by the actual performance, but sometimes that's secondary to the result. Yesterday, playing well wasn't really the main objective.

stevenurse · Nov 22, 2017

Thought Winks and Sanchez in particular were outstanding.

Dier was great from a defending point of view with some great interceptions and clearances, but his passing is a major downgrade on Toby. Several balls misplaced, overhit or intercepted.

Winks absolutely bossed it. Set the tempo from start to finish. Thought Eriksen, Son and Kane were all pretty quiet, which goes to show how good they are when Son/Kane still end up being matchwinners.

Alli was integral, albeit frustrating at times. I'll take a poor performance including 2 assists.

Dembele looked a lot more mobile when he came on, albeit for 10 mins

Bus-Conductor · Nov 22, 2017

JimmyG2 said:
I don't think that Dele is going to change much.
and in many ways I don't want him to.
He will refine his game as he matures
but will remain cheeky to the point of insolence
and confident to the point of arrogance.
I love the boy
and he brings to Spurs what few can bring
along with a lot of baggage.
If Spurs can't absorb such a maverick who can.
Two assists among the nonsense last night.
Exhilarating and tedious simultaneously.

Sorry BC

I don't think anyone can absorb a maverick when they aren't producing and aren't contributing. When he is, it's a much more viable argument. As I said in the Alli thread, there is currently only one player in this league that gets dispossessed more than Alli, and that's Jordon Ayew, even Andros Townsend is only 3rd in that list despite being the second highest dribbler and Alli 30th.

His two assists yesterday weren't anything to do with maverick genius, just doggedness. That's great but, we can get that from Sissoko. My problem this season has been a distinct lack of even maverick genius, let alone plain old genius.

We could have won at OT instead of losing if he'd just done the simple. We might not have been so shit at the Emirates if he'd just done more of the simple. So, can we accommodate the maverick ? Not every day we can't. IMO.

Roynie · Nov 22, 2017

I didn't see a lot of the game as my signal is very erratic. From what I could see the back 3 and the DM 2 improved considerably after we went 1 down. Beforehand they didn't seem too sharp and were doing their usual slow tippy tappy passing. After conceding the goal they picked up the pace and were much better and it was reflected inn the rest of the team.

JimmyG2 · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I don't think anyone can absorb a maverick when they aren't producing and aren't contributing. When he is, it's a much more viable argument. As I said in the Alli thread, there is currently only one player in this league that gets dispossessed more than Alli, and that's Jordon Ayew, even Andros Townsend is only 3rd in that list despite being the second highest dribbler and Alli 30th.

His two assists yesterday weren't anything to do with maverick genius, just doggedness. That's great but, we can get that from Sissoko. My problem this season has been a distinct lack of even maverick genius, let alone plain old genius.

We could have won at OT instead of losing if he'd just done the simple. We might not have been so shit at the Emirates if he'd just done more of the simple. So, can we accommodate the maverick ? Not every day we can't. IMO.

Blimey now it's all Dele's fault.
When can we hope to see Sissoko's 'doggedness
producing goals and assists?

I'm not too bothered how many times he loses the ball
as long as he scores and assists on a regular basis
which he does.
I think you should get out from under that mountain of statistics
and watch the games with more joy.

jonathanhotspur · Nov 22, 2017

JimmyG2 said:
Blimey now it's all Dele's fault.
When can we hope to see Sissoko's 'doggedness
producing goals and assists?

I'm not too bothered how many times he loses the ball
as long as he scores and assists on a regular basis
which he does.
I think you should get out from under that mountain of statistics
and watch the games with more joy.

Carelessness in possession is a cardinal sin, @JimmyG2.

Led's Zeppelin · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I don't think anyone can absorb a maverick when they aren't producing and aren't contributing. When he is, it's a much more viable argument. As I said in the Alli thread, there is currently only one player in this league that gets dispossessed more than Alli, and that's Jordon Ayew, even Andros Townsend is only 3rd in that list despite being the second highest dribbler and Alli 30th.

His two assists yesterday weren't anything to do with maverick genius, just doggedness. That's great but, we can get that from Sissoko. My problem this season has been a distinct lack of even maverick genius, let alone plain old genius.

We could have won at OT instead of losing if he'd just done the simple. We might not have been so shit at the Emirates if he'd just done more of the simple. So, can we accommodate the maverick ? Not every day we can't. IMO.

Thing is, if you knew in advance which games players were going to be brilliant in and which ones they would maybe not come up with the winning moves, you could select your side accordingly. Retrospectively, it's a different game.

And anyway, Dele has come up with enough winning and dangerous moves to fully justify his selection for every important game.

And even when he's below his own highest standards, his presence affects the opposition who nearly always dedicate two players to try to shut him down, and they are fairly regularly assisted by a third. This is immensely valuable to Spurs. His contribution sometimes results from the way he pulls defences out of shape, even without necessarily appearing to be directly responsible for goals that result. He assists Harry by helping to create space for him, and he often doesn't get credit for that. That's one of a few reasons why the "assists" stat isn't as meaningful as it might be.

Plus he consistently does more than his fair share of decisive defensive work.

I think you radically underestimate the positive influence he has on the team when he's playing.

PS, sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but it feels relevant to yesterday's game.

Gaz_Gammon · Nov 22, 2017

BringBack_leGin said:
@Bus-Conductor little harsh today, I’ll concede that off the ball we are still too open (neither Dier nor Wanyama being in midfield being the primary cause imo), I think on the ball we were fine if not spectacular. We created far more by way of dangerous opportunity in both halves, Son alone could’ve had a hatrick, while the home team only really had the two Aubameyang chances, one of which he scored. It wasn’t scintillating but it was good enough to beat 8/10 opponents imo.

Agree entirely.

After reading that Lloris was "terrible" Rose did fuck all and Eriksen was pish, then i checked back in to see if we actually won the game.

Coming off a bad loss to Woolwich three days earlier, Rose returning from injury and likewise Kane and with Toby missing i thought we were outstanding.

BC posts a volume on what a mess we were, without any foundation, then again he does this most of the time just to get a reaction. I often wonder if marijuana has been legalized in the part of the country where he lives.

Bus-Conductor · Nov 22, 2017

JimmyG2 said:
Blimey now it's all Dele's fault.
When can we hope to see Sissoko's 'doggedness
producing goals and assists?

I'm not too bothered how many times he loses the ball
as long as he scores and assists on a regular basis
which he does.
I think you should get out from under that mountain of statistics
and watch the games with more joy.

No it's not all Deli's fault, but what is his fault is his fault. You can maybe love the shit as well as the shine, that's entirely your prerogative, personally I think there's a cost as well as a benefit equation, working out the net gain/loss isn't always easy. Sometimes it is easy and it's not always gain.

Bus-Conductor · Nov 22, 2017

Led's Zeppelin said:
Thing is, if you knew in advance which games players were going to be brilliant in and which ones they would maybe not come up with the winning moves, you could select your side accordingly. Retrospectively, it's a different game.

And anyway, Dele has come up with enough winning and dangerous moves to fully justify his selection for every important game.

And even when he's below his own highest standards, his presence affects the opposition who nearly always dedicate two players to try to shut him down, and they are fairly regularly assisted by a third. This is immensely valuable to Spurs. His contribution sometimes results from the way he pulls defences out of shape, even without necessarily appearing to be directly responsible for goals that result. He assists Harry by helping to create space for him, and he often doesn't get credit for that. That's one of a few reasons why the "assists" stat isn't as meaningful as it might be.

Plus he consistently does more than his fair share of decisive defensive work.

I think you radically underestimate the positive influence he has on the team when he's playing.

PS, sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but it feels relevant to yesterday's game.

The old "even when he's shit he's brilliant" chestnut eh? Otherwise known as the Aaron Lennon theory.

What about the adverse effect he has on the team by being one of the two worst players in this league for turning over the ball. If you've somehow managed to quantify his genius even when shit, can you give me a rough estimation of how his carelessness and waste adversely effects all of those around him who have to compensate, recover and cope with the stresses that puts on them?

The second part in bold is also just something you have made up which is rarely true, and is often total bollocks. On a very good day Alli does what he should do without the ball as a bare minimum. The other days he's not, and as a result, like Saturday, it effects this behind him and helps to expose our tactical set up, such as high line CB's and FB's which are even higher.

Lets be clear, I think Alli has some special qualities, most weeks he justifies his selection because he does produce and he can and does effect outcomes positively, and we aren't blessed with definitively better alternatives, but that is not the case every week, and even some of the weeks it is the case, it is not always only positive influence.

JimmyG2 · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
The old "even when he's shit he's brilliant" chestnut eh? Otherwise known as the Aaron Lennon theory.

What about the adverse effect he has on the team by being one of the two worst players in this league for turning over the ball. If you've somehow managed to quantify his genius even when shit, can you give me a rough estimation of how his carelessness and waste adversely effects all of those around him who have to compensate, recover and cope with the stresses that puts on them?

The second part in bold is also just something you have made up which is rarely true, and is often total bollocks. On a very good day Alli does what he should do without the ball as a bare minimum. The other days he's not, and as a result, like Saturday, it effects this behind him and helps to expose our tactical set up, such as high line CB's and FB's which are even higher.

Lets be clear, I think Alli has some special qualities, most weeks he justifies his selection because he does produce and he can and does effect outcomes positively, and we aren't blessed with definitively better alternatives, but that is not the case every week, and even some of the weeks it is the case, it is not always only positive influence.

I'm sure that it is as frustrating, at times,
to play with Dele as to watch him.
But he does things with his movement skill and awareness
that nobody else does
and for that reason I'm sure the players tolerate this
as I do as a spectator and fan.
I also agree that the profit and loss account
sometimes veers into negative territory.
My only dispute with you
is how much of his fuckwittery costs us.

Gilzeanking · Nov 22, 2017

Dele's 'dribbling' is a process where he pushes the ball straight at the defender in front of him . 9 out of 10 times he hands over possession hence his stats.

However that tenth time when he gets a bit of ' dribbling' luck..like for 2nd assist yesterday...it can be effective . Its sort of a numbers game for him he has to do many dribbles to have one work with a ricochet/nutmeg...or dare I say it , a bumble .

I've never seen dribbling quite like it , but I remember England players talking about how in World Cup 1958 ,(was it)
Pele used to deliberately bounce the ball against defenders legs and collect the ball back ...maybe Dele and Pele I mean the names are very close..

His epic runs into the area for goals/assists , fantastic when they come , but we have to weigh positive against negative and people weigh these differently .

Turning over possession this amount is a negative .

thinktank · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I don't think anyone can absorb a maverick when they aren't producing and aren't contributing. When he is, it's a much more viable argument. As I said in the Alli thread, there is currently only one player in this league that gets dispossessed more than Alli, and that's Jordon Ayew, even Andros Townsend is only 3rd in that list despite being the second highest dribbler and Alli 30th.

His two assists yesterday weren't anything to do with maverick genius, just doggedness. That's great but, we can get that from Sissoko. My problem this season has been a distinct lack of even maverick genius, let alone plain old genius.

We could have won at OT instead of losing if he'd just done the simple. We might not have been so shit at the Emirates if he'd just done more of the simple. So, can we accommodate the maverick ? Not every day we can't. IMO.

Until he cracks this he will continue to be a player merely living up to his hype and not his true potential.

Gaz_Gammon · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
The old "even when he's shit he's brilliant" chestnut eh? Otherwise known as the Aaron Lennon theory.

What about the adverse effect he has on the team by being one of the two worst players in this league for turning over the ball. If you've somehow managed to quantify his genius even when shit, can you give me a rough estimation of how his carelessness and waste adversely effects all of those around him who have to compensate, recover and cope with the stresses that puts on them?

The second part in bold is also just something you have made up which is rarely true, and is often total bollocks. On a very good day Alli does what he should do without the ball as a bare minimum. The other days he's not, and as a result, like Saturday, it effects this behind him and helps to expose our tactical set up, such as high line CB's and FB's which are even higher.

Lets be clear, I think Alli has some special qualities, most weeks he justifies his selection because he does produce and he can and does effect outcomes positively, and we aren't blessed with definitively better alternatives, but that is not the case every week, and even some of the weeks it is the case, it is not always only positive influence.

If we wanted to be lectured, wouldn't we go to College?

:whistle:

Led's Zeppelin · Nov 22, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
The old "even when he's shit he's brilliant" chestnut eh? Otherwise known as the Aaron Lennon theory.

What about the adverse effect he has on the team by being one of the two worst players in this league for turning over the ball. If you've somehow managed to quantify his genius even when shit, can you give me a rough estimation of how his carelessness and waste adversely effects all of those around him who have to compensate, recover and cope with the stresses that puts on them?

The second part in bold is also just something you have made up which is rarely true, and is often total bollocks. On a very good day Alli does what he should do without the ball as a bare minimum. The other days he's not, and as a result, like Saturday, it effects this behind him and helps to expose our tactical set up, such as high line CB's and FB's which are even higher.

Lets be clear, I think Alli has some special qualities, most weeks he justifies his selection because he does produce and he can and does effect outcomes positively, and we aren't blessed with definitively better alternatives, but that is not the case every week, and even some of the weeks it is the case, it is not always only positive influence.

How would you choose which matches to drop him for?

Bus-Conductor · Nov 22, 2017

Gaz_Gammon said:
If we wanted to be lectured, wouldn't we go to College?

Why go to college when you can get it here for free?

danielneeds · Nov 22, 2017

Just wanted to add, that the touch from Llorente when clean through last night was so dirty, you can now find it on Pornhub under BBC DP vids...

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