The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Hengy1 said:

Isn’t resting main players normally the reason youth players get a chance?

Sterling performances especially in UYL have been very good and definitely deserved his call up. No doubt about it.

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yes, though it's quite rare that during the season you end up playing a game with effectively nothing on the line.

i don't really know what you think i'm disputing with sterling, i've already said that of the four mentioned he's the only one whose performances have merited it. i still think there are others equally or more deserving of a chance though but they'll be playing tomorrow in front of a couple of hundred people rather than at wembley in front of ... well, however many decide to turn up.

Doesn’t look like the UYL game is televised so if close by I’d try and get over and watch if you can.

Hengy1 said:

I do love how it’s poch yet all he’ll will be getting is reports from McDermott.

How much do you think poch actually sees off these youth footballers? Not much is my guess bar reports & videos from he’s given from McDermott.

As for the comment earlier about him not great with young players I find is totally wrong.

He’s very good with young players, it’s youth players he’s probably not great with.

Young players like Dele & Sanchez he doesn’t have no worries with but that mainly because they come with experience before hand.

I believe next season will be the season for a couple of these players to get the time for first team action and we’ll all be very happy

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Apparently we're told that he watches them a lot, as this is what people say when I question a decision he makes. Either way, do you really believe that McDermott gets them to this level then doesn't believe they are good enough. Like the Sporting Director of Monchengladbach, I'm sure McDermott knows how good they are and I'm sure he thinks they are good enough for Prem football, after all these players are better, than the previous lot of players how have all proved they are good enough for the PL.

I like your optimism but I've grown pessimistic. I heard nothing but great things about Poch bringing through academy players since he came. I thought he could have given chances in his first year, and have questioned him and been told to be patient, and we're now in his 4th year, and under his program he has taken one player from academy to squad player. Less players have gone from academy to squad/first teamers in his 4 years, despite this being his apparent forte, than the previous 4 years despite, even though the previous 4 years had lesser players. I feel I can question that but some don't like it. So while I like your optimism I don't share it, but like you if we see more progress or even close to what was done under other managers under Poch I will be ecstatic, and Spurs will be in a better position.

Streetspur77 said:

The bit at the end, and the general opinions of many youth watchers, seem to imply poch and McDermott have some master plan to waste the academy and ruin Edwards's career, in particular

They are promoting whoever they think will have the best impact on the first team at the same time as it being the best for the youth player in question, NOTHING else, to believe otherwise is crazy

For whatever reason, two people who will forget more about football then we will all ever know, think that It's more beneficial for everyone involved if, say Amos plays rather than skipp, and I for one am willing trust them on that, it's not a race and skipp will get his chance when they feel is right

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I don't. I think McDermott will think a lot of these players are good enough. There are more variables than is this person good enough affecting Poch when introducing a player, surely to think otherwise is crazy. Not least, the belief than a player with experience is more reliable than one without. If you can tell me why less English players get chances than their contemporaries despite proving that they are better, if it is a clear cut, if they are good enough they will play. Then cool, but I can't see any reason why that would happen. Also you manufacturing the belief that I think Poch wants to destroy the academy does nothing for the debate. If you can't look at English football and say we do so much worse than every other country then surely you must be blind, but then you're not going to say that every manager is out to destroy English football, so what's the reason?

And regarding the last paragraph, as ever, so long as you don't question any other Poch's decision regarding the first team and you apply that logic all the time then I accept your point. But I'm sure I can go through your post history and at some point find you saying, Poch should play so and so, or do a 433, and I can assure you I won't respond with, Poch has forgotten more football than you will ever know, if he believes we should start N'Koudou, I am willing to trust him on that.

Hengy1 said:

Doesn’t look like the UYL game is televised so if close by I’d try and get over and watch if you can.

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Sadly I'm working, but I'll try go Chelesa on saturday. Keep us updated if you go

IGSpur said:

Sadly I'm working, but I'll try go Chelesa on saturday. Keep us updated if you go

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Not this time for me as sons birthday. Hopefully we play better than the away game v Apeol

Hengy1 said:

Not this time for me as sons birthday. Hopefully we play better than the away game v Apeol

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Didn't get to see, but didn't sound like a great game, but ye hope for a better result.

HBD to your boy to

Hengy1 said:

Tbh I do think there’s a tendency nowadays for people wanting to rush players through to the first team.

Do I think Edwards should be given a chance yes of course but he’s only just turned 19 so he has plenty time for it to happen if it doesn’t happen this season.

There’s obviously been a lot of attention on Edwards yet not many are caring that poch has called up sterling ( to go along with Georgiou, ToB & Amos ) is pretty good going.

Once poch ( although I believe it’s McDermott calling the shots on this ) believes everything is aligned then Edwards will get the call up.

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I don't think there are many calling for just any youth players to be called up, and to be honest I doubt many on here would be calling for Georgiou or Amos to be called up (or even TOB). Sterling is slightly different because we're so lacking in striker depth and he seems back to his 'old' form recently.

It's so convenient to say 'you just want all the youth players to play' when the reality is that 'we' (i.e. the youth watchers/admirers on here) only truly rate a relatively small proportion of our youth players and absolutely do not call for regular youth player involvement.

The fact is that despite his reputation, Poch has brought through one youth player so far at Spurs, despite us having the best group of youth players we've probably ever had. I get that there's probably a reason for that - i.e. we're at a level now where it's less easy to break in. But a counter-argument: Sissoko, Nkoudou, Llorente.

WindyCOYS said:

I don't think there are many calling for just any youth players to be called up, and to be honest I doubt many on here would be calling for Georgiou or Amos to be called up (or even TOB). Sterling is slightly different because we're so lacking in striker depth and he seems back to his 'old' form recently.

It's so convenient to say 'you just want all the youth players to play' when the reality is that 'we' (i.e. the youth watchers/admirers on here) only truly rate a relatively small proportion of our youth players and absolutely do not call for regular youth player involvement.

The fact is that despite his reputation, Poch has brought through one youth player so far at Spurs, despite us having the best group of youth players we've probably ever had. I get that there's probably a reason for that - i.e. we're at a level now where it's less easy to break in. But a counter-argument: Sissoko, Nkoudou, Llorente.

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Well I never said the “you just want all youth players to play” Line so not sure what’s that about.

As for our best group how many haven’t made it?

Winks did, Onomah played 30 odd times now having a relatively good loan at villa ( depending what villa fan you talk too ). CCV having a good loan at Sheff united with both still 20 I believe so plenty time to step up.

Then we have a good band underneath but they are at very young ages that still lots of time and development to bring these lads through.

Who actually was good enough but never made it since poch has been here? Can only think off Prichard and bentaleb ( who actually did make it but fell out and sold for a great sum of money )

IGSpur said:

I don't. I think McDermott will think a lot of these players are good enough. There are more variables than is this person good enough affecting Poch when introducing a player, surely to think otherwise is crazy. Not least, the belief than a player with experience is more reliable than one without. If you can tell me why less English players get chances than their contemporaries despite proving that they are better, if it is a clear cut, if they are good enough they will play. Then cool, but I can't see any reason why that would happen. Also you manufacturing the belief that I think Poch wants to destroy the academy does nothing for the debate. If you can't look at English football and say we do so much worse than every other country then surely you must be blind, but then you're not going to say that every manager is out to destroy English football, so what's the reason?

And regarding the last paragraph, as ever, so long as you don't question any other Poch's decision regarding the first team and you apply that logic all the time then I accept your point. But I'm sure I can go through your post history and at some point find you saying, Poch should play so and so, or do a 433, and I can assure you I won't respond with, Poch has forgotten more football than you will ever know, if he believes we should start N'Koudou, I am willing to trust him on that.

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Apart from the general flippancy/aggressive nature of your reply which I don't think I gave to you, I can see your point of view and also sometimes get frustrated as I'd like to see more young players come through, especially as this lot seem so talented

But I can't critise poch because in this situation where it's as much about mentality/attitude as it is talent it's something only poch and the youth staff can have fully formed opinions on, and therefore to criticise them is (to re-quote myself as you do kindly did) "surely crazy". Maybe I didn't phrase this well enough before. Also in answer to your question, do trust him very much generally and will rarely criticise him as I am grateful for the position he has got us to (obviously not right now) .

I would say the reason English players find it hard to breakthrough is because of the competitive nature of our league, there are no bankers where you can just throw in a young player and if they make a mistake you can still easily outclass your opponents. You could play a young player, they get caught out of position badly and then you concede and drop 3 key points, and then their confidence is shot aswell, something whether you think they are good or not is less likely to happen to pros, even sissko. That's why it's encouraging more are going abroad.

I also didn't say that the only thing poch thinks about is "is this player good enough". I said whether they will have an impact on the team and if it will benefit the youth player.

Hengy1 said:

Who actually was good enough but never made it since poch has been here? Can only think off Prichard and bentaleb ( who actually did make it but fell out and sold for a great sum of money )

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Veljkovic is now a regular CB in Bundesliga, and I believe Oduwa, was good enough to have contributed to our EL team and who knows where he would have gone from there. But I'm sure people will point to where he is now as 'evidence' he wasn't good enough.

The others so far have not really had a chance, but you know, when most of our youth players contributed to our squad they played major roles in the seasons they turned 21/22 but then some of them have 50+ games under their belt in loans these guys won't have that. Secondly I believe that these players are good enough now, as they are better but in the interest of fairness I will see what Onomah/KWP/CCV are doing when they are 21/22.

My question, is there any point where you might consider that Poch has failed. Bear in mind AVB got stick from fans for his lack of introducing academy in 2 years, after 6 years with us, with our best ever intake, and overseeing our academy at a point where England are experiencing an unprecedented level of success at youth level, not just for England, but no other country has ever matched, how many academy players would you expect Poch to have taken from academy to squad/first team, to be considered a success or failure?

The years preceding Poch with a weaker age group we had Townsend, Caulker, Rose, Carroll, Bentaleb, Kane as all genuine squad and become first teamers. Would anything be considered a failure? Should we just be grateful to have Winks come through? Is it just luck who comes through, despite investing so much money in our academy and training ground?

Might sound a bit odd but sterling reminds a bit of younger shorter Cyril Regis. Mainly because of his physique. Already quite well built and that will increase but he’s also quite agile which is quite a rare combination. You often find with the bigger more muscular forwards are a bit cumbersome like a Benteke. But he seems to have the blend of good agility but with physical strength much like Cyril had.

Streetspur77 said:

Apart from the general flippancy/aggressive nature of your reply which I don't think I gave to you, I can see your point of view and also sometimes get frustrated as I'd like to see more young players come through, especially as this lot seem so talented

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Apologies, if my post came across like that. It may have been a bit of frustration seeping in, as I hear that argument all the time. To be frank, the way it feels to me is I, and others, put in a lot of effort in trying to attend games as we're interested and will happily keep people informed as others are interested and may not have the means to attend. And yet it feels that no matter how much time I give, it seems I am no closer in being able to form an opinion on whether I think an academy player is good enough for the first team, as it is free to be shot down on the basis I don't watch them in training, so I may as well not attend at all. Yet if someone watches 2 eredivise games and thinking a players is good enough for our first team, everyone will pat them on the back.

I'm not rude and wouldn't wish to seem that way but I am passionate about this topic and it will sometimes seep into my posts. Thanks for checking me though as don't want to get carried away, I enjoy a debate, though I'm sure this part of it ruins the thread for a lot, but no need for it. Unfortunately there are no games on right now for anyone to report on so we discuss this

Streetspur77 said:

But I can't critise poch because in this situation where it's as much about mentality/attitude as it is talent it's something only poch and the youth staff can have fully formed opinions on, and therefore to criticise them is (to re-quote myself as you do kindly did) "surely crazy". Maybe I didn't phrase this well enough before. Also in answer to your question, do trust him very much generally and will rarely criticise him as I am grateful for the position he has got us to (obviously not right now)

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I generally trust Poch and his coaching and his tactics, but I still think his decisions are open to criticism and debate particularly on this issue, as I think like others managers he struggles to bring academy players through. I don't believe it is as simple as if someone is good enough they will be given opportunity. There are all kind of factors that come into play with the first team so why would it be that simple for the academy players. You're right he is in a better position to judge someone's mental situation but like I say that should then apply to the first team as well, but it isn't treated the same. Example Amos has never played for our first team and Georgiou has played 2 competitive minutes. So there is no first team experience. I have seen both players play countless times as I have Edwards and let's say Skipp (though I acknowledge he is very young). I have seen them play on an even playing field at u23s level, and the 2 latter players have consistently outperformed the older 2, and based off that I believe they should be ahead of them in the pecking order, but I can't say that as I don't see them in training. But if we see 2 first team players play on an even field and someone suggests someone should play over another that won't be questioned. Either it's crazy to question both or its not, we can't be able to accept some opinions on some topics and not others. Even if McDermott himself came out and gave an interview to say Edwards is ready for the PL, if Poch didn't think so everyone would go with Poch, so there essentially is no debate here. Poch is my favourite manager if he wins the PL with no academy players I won't care, but I think they will help, I don't want them playing for fun.

Streetspur77 said:

I would say the reason English players find it hard to breakthrough is because of the competitive nature of our league, there are no bankers where you can just throw in a young player and if they make a mistake you can still easily outclass your opponents. You could play a young player, they get caught out of position badly and then you concede and drop 3 key points, and then their confidence is shot aswell, something whether you think they are good or not is less likely to happen to pros, even sissko. That's why it's encouraging more are going abroad.

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Agree, which goes to show it's not a simple case of, if they are good enough they will play. Managers have all types of pressure on them and they need to be braver. I believe a lot of our young players are good enough for the PL, and won't make anymore mistakes than 'experienced' players or signings from abroad. I think it is largely a myth. I mean can you think of any academy players that have come in and made any glaring others. I can name 'experienced' and foreign players who have. If KWP gave that penalty away on his debut, he would have been dropeed (he was anyway) or it would be said he is inexperienced or needs a loan. But Alderweireld gave a penalty away on his debut but no one put that down to inexperience.

I think too much is made of this claim academy players make more mistakes, nothing we've seen suggests that, but they definitely don't get the same amount of rope signed players do. Soldado went 2 straight years of no scoring before being dropped. Aurier, has got a read, given away a penalty and made other rash decisions in his first 10 games, but no one will say let's not sign another player and will give him time. Lamela struggled in his first year and was constantly knocked off the ball, but patience was shown, yet the critciism is if Edwards plays he might get knocked off the ball easily. Sissoko was terrible last year, couldn't control a ball and was persisted with, I think he's been better this year as I've adjusted my expectations of him, but do you think if an academy player played like him last year, in 2 games he would have been seen again. All the evidence we've seen so far, is our players are good enough, and I don't think the PL is this mythical league that can't be broken into, but it si treated as such, and while managers are shit scared of losing their job because the huge sums of money involved they will never make completely objective decisions on academy players.

IGSpur said:

Veljkovic is now a regular CB in Bundesliga, and I believe Oduwa, was good enough to have contributed to our EL team and who knows where he would have gone from there. But I'm sure people will point to where he is now as 'evidence' he wasn't good enough.

The others so far have not really had a chance, but you know, when most of our youth players contributed to our squad they played major roles in the seasons they turned 21/22 but then some of them have 50+ games under their belt in loans these guys won't have that. Secondly I believe that these players are good enough now, as they are better but in the interest of fairness I will see what Onomah/KWP/CCV are doing when they are 21/22.

My question, is there any point where you might consider that Poch has failed. Bear in mind AVB got stick from fans for his lack of introducing academy in 2 years, after 6 years with us, with our best ever intake, and overseeing our academy at a point where England are experiencing an unprecedented level of success at youth level, not just for England, but no other country has ever matched, how many academy players would you expect Poch to have taken from academy to squad/first team, to be considered a success or failure?

The years preceding Poch with a weaker age group we had Townsend, Caulker, Rose, Carroll, Bentaleb, Kane as all genuine squad and become first teamers. Would anything be considered a failure? Should we just be grateful to have Winks come through? Is it just luck who comes through, despite investing so much money in our academy and training ground?

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Are we talking about the same Oduwa who is struggling to prove himself in Slovenia? Also its not just where he is now that you can use as evidence but his repeated failures out on loan. He was a decent impact player in the scottish championship but rarely contributed more than a few rainbow flicks, but he wasn't good enough elsewhere. The manager of Colchester publicly criticized him in the media essentially saying he flatters to deceive and he didn't know the difference between looking like a player and actually being a good player, he further criticized him being able to consistently 'beat people and get balls into the box and be effective for the team'.

I had high hopes for Oduwa and maybe with better players he would perform better, but apart from a preseason, and u23's, which frankly are not a particularly accurate indicator of how well a player can do in the more high paced environment of professional football, he did convince Poch to take a risk on him, and he didn't convince other managers in other teams that he could be effective. Thats ultimately down to him.

Veljkovic is playing regularly for the second worst club in the bundesliga, But not actually at a level that suggests he would deserve playing many games at Tottenham. We have players who are both younger and better than him at this club so I think him lettting him leave was pretty justified.

I don't think Poch has particularly markedly failed on any prospects so far. The fact is the players themselves actually bear the biggest responsibility. For example if Edwards fails to make it at spurs feel free to blame it on Poch, but if Edwards fails to become a top player, with his ability, he has failed himself.

Ultimately, if 1 or 2 make it per age group to go out and play over 50 games than that is a tremendous success. At the moment in 3 and a half years at the club so far no less than four players have established themselves in the side under him making more than 50 appearances. That is a big success.

Also I question if that group was truly weaker, I recall that group getting much better results at youth level than the current ones. I also remember there being massive hype in that group. Caulker in particular was considered a future great at the club, Mason as well.

It also has to be mentioned, Kane and even Bentaleb to an extent, were not really established first teamers. They had made PL starts but if thats the logic you judge a player breaking through than Carroll only broke through under Poch, who was the first to give him regular game time.

Before Poch Kane only started 6 PL games and Bentaleb started only 11 games does that count as first teamer?

Blake Griffin said:

yes, though it's quite rare that during the season you end up playing a game with effectively nothing on the line.

i don't really know what you think i'm disputing with sterling, i've already said that of the four mentioned he's the only one whose performances have merited it. i still think there are others equally or more deserving of a chance though but they'll be playing tomorrow in front of a couple of hundred people rather than at wembley in front of ... well, however many decide to turn up.

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You mean they will be playing in a typically hostile Cypriot atmosphere in front of 15,000 people in a game which doesn't mean anything for Spurs but a lot for APOEL, will be a good test. Much better than a flat, half full, wembley crowd were it the reverse.

A pal of mine worked at a London PL club for years, he saw dozens of talented youngsters who dazzled in their own age group as teenagers. Promoted to the first team for training the vast majority struggled with the physicality and intensity, the senior pros show no mercy if their place is threatened. EVERY established pro has been through this scenario, Poch included, and will watch how a youngster reacts. Alli, Kane and Winks clearly have a combination of ability and attitude that allows them to make the step up, most only have one or the other. Professional football is ruthless, non league football is littered with talented rejects from big clubs who simply don't have the heart for a fight. Fergie was lucky enough to have a group that came through together, but Hansen's cynicism at the time is as true now as it was then.

C0YS said:

You mean they will be playing in a typically hostile Cypriot atmosphere in front of 15,000 people in a game which doesn't mean anything for Spurs but a lot for APOEL, will be a good test. Much better than a flat, half full, wembley crowd were it the reverse.

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but the game is at wembley .. ?

No doubt it will be an unpopular opinion but I get the gut feeling that Edwards isn't going to make it at spurs.

Not because of ability, but attitude. If the problems with signing his contract etc are to be believed, he clearly believes his own hype already (didn't he want first team guarantees?) which is an increasing common theme with youth players unfortunately.

For someone with an abundance of talent, the lack of drive to work hard and ensure he gets his chance is somewhat alarming.

Poch clearly believes he possesses the technical skills to play in the first team (if Sissoko can than anyone can!), but lacks the work ethic required for his teams.

He may well go on to do great things in a team where he's allowed to coast and have a free role, but he's got to be careful he's not another Taarabt...

I may be being harsh, but from the admittedly limited amount I've seen, he's frightening going forward but tends to drift in and out of games. If these press conferences give him the kick up the arse required then of course we could have a truly special player in there.

with sterling promoted tonight is griffiths the most likely candidate to replace him in the youth game?

With everyone banging on about form and showing a good attitude should Tanganga not have been considered for this squad because no one has shown more consistency than him.