Attacking purchases under Poch

Bus-Conductor · Dec 19, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
No, basically we need to spend wiser with less scatter gun on hope for potential because our scouts don’t seem to be particularly good at finding gens.

Yes, if Levy doesn’t want a £1bn white elephant on his hands he needs to step up our purchasing and wages budgets. Come next season we will have the highest gate receipts in the league. Our top price executive seats will cost £7,000 per season compared to £4,000 at the goons. You can’t expect us, the fans, to pay more than any other club to watch the team and then serve up second tier product.

I don't really get it. You are saying we need to spend wiser, but in the last two seasons we've finished above all of those clubs bar Arsenal (last day) once, our forward players have outperformed many of those you list during that time, despite spending drastically less, which seems to suggest our recruitment is generally been "wiser" than our piers, no?

Spurs 110m
City 240m
Utd 258m
Liverpool 264m
Arsenal 117m

You mentioned Chelsea, but didn't include them in your figures, but we have also finished above them once in the last two years, and second to them the other.

am_yisrael_chai said:
Finding gems is by definition almost impossible but seeing as you ask I think Southampton have done better than us in recent times with the likes of Mane, Wanyama, Alderweireld, Van Dijk.

Lloris, Dier, Vertonghen, Rose, Davies, Walker, Alli, Eriksen, Son - ? All signed for very good value.

I like the way Southampton have gone about their business, they are a pretty decent example of a well run club who have recruited pretty smartly, but we must be on par or not far behind them in terms of bang for recruitment buck, and we are massively outperforming them on the pitch.

Isn't the bottom line that of course we could recruit better, but we could also have recruited a shitload worse, and most have in the this league.

Personally I think a bigger failing is not maximising our academy resources, which could have saved us vast chunks of money spent on people like Sissoko, Njie, Nkoudou, and been spent more wisely.

JUSTINSIGNAL · Dec 19, 2017

daryl hannah said:
If we lose the likes of Toby because we're still waiting for "jam tomorrow" from the latest no mark winger we've signed we'll never win anything. Strengthen when strong is the mantra other top teams go by. We've failed the last two summers to bring in quality attackers. Whether that's down to Poch, the transfer committee, or our scouts is a who knows... but what I do know is that Walker's left us. Who's next?

We've got our own strategy. We can't do what 'top teams' do because we don't have endless resources like they do.

It might be frustrating but it's got us to where we are now so it's been pretty effective. As I said in another thread, fans come up with all sorts of weird and wonderful reasons to moan for us not being a 'top team' but what it boils down to is that they're pissed off we can't spend money like Man U/Man City/Chelsea.

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 19, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I don't really get it. You are saying we need to spend wiser, but in the last two seasons we've finished above all of those clubs bar Arsenal (last day) once, our forward players have outperformed many of those you list during that time, despite spending drastically less, which seems to suggest our recruitment is generally been "wiser" than our piers, no?

Spurs 110m
City 240m
Utd 258m
Liverpool 264m
Arsenal 117m

You mentioned Chelsea, but didn't include them in your figures, but we have also finished above them once in the last two years, and second to them the other.

Lloris, Dier, Vertonghen, Rose, Davies, Walker, Alli, Eriksen, Son - ? All signed for very good value.

I like the way Southampton have gone about their business, they are a pretty decent example of a well run club who have recruited pretty smartly, but we must be on par or not far behind them in terms of bang for recruitment buck, and we are massively outperforming them on the pitch.

Isn't the bottom line that of course we could recruit better, but we could also have recruited a shitload worse, and most have in the this league.

Personally I think a bigger failing is not maximising our academy resources, which could have saved us vast chunks of money spent on people like Sissoko, Njie, Nkoudou, and been spent more wisely.

I’m talking about recruitment, of the forward players we’ve recruited only Son and Alli have succeeded. Our forward line looks good largely due to Kane, which may or may not lend credence to your argument for more internal promotion. I say that because until we see a second internal recruit who comes close to Kane he looks like a once in a generation piece of good luck rather than the result of a process at our academy. It doesn’t take away from our numerous flops with external recruitment.

Yes of course we could have recruited worse but this analysis was focussed on recruitment of forwards only and quite frankly the only way we could have done worse would have been not to sign Son.

P.S. not sure how I missed Chelsea’s signings but will fix when I get time.

Bus-Conductor · Dec 19, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
I’m talking about recruitment, of the forward players we’ve recruited only Son and Alli have succeeded. Our forward line looks good largely due to Kane, which may or may not lend credence to your argument for more internal promotion. I say that because until we see a second internal recruit who comes close to Kane he looks like a once in a generation piece of good luck rather than the result of a process at our academy. It doesn’t take away from our numerous flops with external recruitment.

Yes of course we could have recruited worse but this analysis was focussed on recruitment of forwards only and quite frankly the only way we could have done worse would have been not to sign Son.

P.S. not sure how I missed Chelsea’s signings but will fix when I get time.

I'm still a bit confused. Our whole regular attacking group that have been purchased Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela have been pretty successful ? Ignoring Kane, I'm pretty sure Eriksen, Alli and Son, as a group, outperformed most of the AM3's of our competitors last year, didn't they ?

Coaching a player for almost a decade (Kane) and sticking with him through some dodgy spells on loan and early first team failures is not luck.

daryl hannah · Dec 19, 2017

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
We've got our own strategy. We can't do what 'top teams' do because we don't have endless resources like they do.

It might be frustrating but it's got us to where we are now so it's been pretty effective. As I said in another thread, fans come up with all sorts of weird and wonderful reasons to moan for us not being a 'top team' but what it boils down to is that they're pissed off we can't spend money like Man U/Man City/Chelsea.

I think that's true and is exacerbated when we don't perform. For the past two seasons we've been dining as an unwanted guest at the top table. We're trying to win the league as a David to all the other Goliaths in the top 6.

So the Goliaths go out and buy themselves the latest hi-tech weapons to redress the balance, while we're stuck brandishing our slingshot and scrabbling around for empty crisp packets that no one else wants, expecting them to make lethal arrows.

I'm not talking about our defensive signings, obviouzly.

I think people tend to get pissed off because each time the summer window rolls round, despite the previous failures, there's a glimmer of hope that maybe, just maybe... we'll sign a decent attacker for depth. Looking at what Poch has done with limited resources, imagine what he could do with some more proven or raw dynamism in the side.

So we plough on - without silverware for another year?

rocklink · Dec 20, 2017

Instead of buying nkoudou, njie, llorente and janssen, we could have easily bought lacazette who is a much more flexible forward than llorente or janssen.. lacazetter can either play as a lone forward or as a inside forward ... Lacazette, kane, lamela, son, ali and eriksen all these 6 players can easily play in a 3 forward positions and still be rotated regularly.. we have missed a huge trick by not going for lacazette or even salah seriously..

rocklink · Dec 20, 2017

We have flirt around keita balde all summer but never even looked at salah

Shadydan · Dec 20, 2017

rocklink said:
Instead of buying nkoudou, njie, llorente and janssen, we could have easily bought lacazette who is a much more flexible forward than llorente or janssen.. lacazetter can either play as a lone forward or as a inside forward ... Lacazette, kane, lamela, son, ali and eriksen all these 6 players can easily play in a 3 forward positions and still be rotated regularly.. we have missed a huge trick by not going for lacazette or even salah seriously..

Lacazette is on £200k a week at Arsenal

Bus-Conductor · Dec 20, 2017

Shadydan said:
Lacazette is on £200k a week at Arsenal

Where does this come from?

tiger666 · Dec 20, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
Where does this come from?

Was widely reported he would become their highest earner

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...l-transfer-alexandre-lacazette-signs-10738653

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...lary-Alexis-Sanchez-Mesut-Ozil-sportgalleries

http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/05/arsen...book-him-on-delayed-flight-to-sydney-6755769/

dontcallme · Dec 20, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
Where does this come from?

https://www.express.co.uk/pictures/sport/5704/Arsenal-weekly-wages-revealed-sportgalleries

Totalsportek. No idea about the reliability.

ultimateloner · Dec 20, 2017

rossdapep said:
Xhaka and Mustafi have hardly set the world on fire. They were ridiculed a lot back end of last season and have been criticised a lot this season too.

Yeah they aren't great but they can still do a job when called. ours...can't count on them to even do a job.

Bus-Conductor · Dec 20, 2017

tiger666 said:
Was widely reported he would become their highest earner

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...l-transfer-alexandre-lacazette-signs-10738653

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...lary-Alexis-Sanchez-Mesut-Ozil-sportgalleries

http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/05/arsen...book-him-on-delayed-flight-to-sydney-6755769/

dontcallme said:
https://www.express.co.uk/pictures/sport/5704/Arsenal-weekly-wages-revealed-sportgalleries

Totalsportek. No idea about the reliability.

Cheers, they could be right but I find that very hard to believe. He was on something like 70-80k at Lyon, and Arsenal's next highest earners are Sanchez and Ozil at 140k.

Maybe with some super boosted goal scoring and appearance bonuses it could bump up, but why an earth would they have needed to pay him 80% more than their two biggest super star earners, when there was no-one else realistically in for him and he was desperate to leave and he was already earning less than half that?

dontcallme · Dec 20, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
Cheers, they could be right but I find that very hard to believe. He was on something like 70-80k at Lyon, and Arsenal's next highest earners are Sanchez and Ozil at 140k.

Maybe with some super boosted goal scoring and appearance bonuses it could bump up, but why an earth would they have needed to pay him 80% more than their two biggest super star earners, when there was no-one else realistically in for him and he was desperate to leave and he was already earning less than half that?

No idea. Reputation alone it felt like he was destined for someone better than Arsenal.

Maybe they needed to pay him a high wage to bring in a big name signing.

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 20, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
I'm still a bit confused. Our whole regular attacking group that have been purchased Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela have been pretty successful ? Ignoring Kane, I'm pretty sure Eriksen, Alli and Son, as a group, outperformed most of the AM3's of our competitors last year, didn't they ?

Coaching a player for almost a decade (Kane) and sticking with him through some dodgy spells on loan and early first team failures is not luck.

Lamela has only been fit for 1.5 out of the 4 seasons he has been at Spurs so jury out for me, even though I like him. As to the other 3 no denying their success but where is the depth, ability to rotate or to go with something different ? This I suspect was meant to come from the other forward players we have signed and they have been poor. As I’ve said earlier I think this comes down to plain old poor recruitment even if you factor our financial constraints. Examples are obvious, was there a single poster on SC who thought Sissoko would succeed before we signed him ? How can you sign GKN only for the coach to not rate him highly enough to give him any chances in his first season at the club ? This isn’t the same as the Janssen failure which, even though I think he was the wrong type of player, I could see the logic of but just didn’t work out.

Re Kane I think you misunderstand my point, what I’m saying is that unearthing a Kane, a Ledley or a Hoddle from your academy once in a generation is kind of to be expected. Show me a second such player and then you can start to suggest that you’ve done something special in your academy, hence my comment that we need to see who else comes through.

Shadydan · Dec 20, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
Lamela has only been fit for 1.5 out of the 4 seasons he has been at Spurs so jury out for me, even though I like him. As to the other 3 no denying their success but where is the depth, ability to rotate or to go with something different ? This I suspect was meant to come from the other forward players we have signed and they have been poor. As I’ve said earlier I think this comes down to plain old poor recruitment even if you factor our financial constraints. Examples are obvious, was there a single poster on SC who thought Sissoko would succeed before we signed him ? How can you sign GKN only for the coach to not rate him highly enough to give him any chances in his first season at the club ? This isn’t the same as the Janssen failure which, even though I think he was the wrong type of player, I could see the logic of but just didn’t work out.

Re Kane I think you misunderstand my point, what I’m saying is that unearthing a Kane, a Ledley or a Hoddle from your academy once in a generation is kind of to be expected. Show me a second such player and then you can start to suggest that you’ve done something special in your academy, hence my comment that we need to see who else comes through.

Seeing as you say that our recruitment is poor, you'd agree that our rivals scout's are better than us so what have they done differently to our scouts?

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 20, 2017

Shadydan said:
Seeing as you say that our recruitment is poor, you'd agree that our rivals scout's are better than us so what have they done differently to our scouts?

That’s impossible for me to say, particularly as we don’t know how recommendations from the scouts turn into transfer activity. One other point I’d note is that I think there may be an element of Poch’s “philosophy” that impacts our purchases of forward players, hence why I only looked at the period since he joined. I doubt it is coincidence that the two most attack minded coaches in Guardiola and Klopp seem to do well in signing forward players but struggle to sign defensively minded players. Similarly it could well be true that Poch’s more defensive mindset means he is better at identifying and nurturing defensive players. In an ideal world you’d have Poch involved in defensive recruitment and someone like Klopp take care of offensive recruitment. I’d be interested to know if anything similar is adopted in US sports like American Football.

Shadydan · Dec 20, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
That’s impossible for me to say, particularly as we don’t know how recommendations from the scouts turn into transfer activity. One other point I’d note is that I think there may be an element of Poch’s “philosophy” that impacts our purchases of forward players, hence why I only looked at the period since he joined. I doubt it is coincidence that the two most attack minded coaches in Guardiola and Klopp seem to do well in signing forward players but struggle to sign defensively minded players. Similarly it could well be true that Poch’s more defensive mindset means he is better at identifying and nurturing defensive players. In an ideal world you’d have Poch involved in defensive recruitment and someone like Klopp take care of offensive recruitment. I’d be interested to know if anything similar is adopted in US sports like American Football.

We scouted for Mane, Batsuyayi, Martial, we even wanted Welbeck...they opted to go elsewhere...not sure if that's to do with scouting do you?

tiger666 · Dec 20, 2017

Shadydan said:
We scouted for Mane, Batsuyayi, Martial, we even wanted Welbeck...they opted to go elsewhere...not sure if that's to do with scouting do you?

Add Willian

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 20, 2017

Shadydan said:
We scouted for Mane, Batsuyayi, Martial, we even wanted Welbeck...they opted to go elsewhere...not sure if that's to do with scouting do you?

No it isn’t but the question then becomes what is plan B when we can’t buy them for financial reasons. Unless the plan B is over the heads of our scouts then Sissoko, Njie, GKN were all on our scouts lists.

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