Attacking purchases under Poch

Johnny J · Dec 20, 2017

My issue with our recruitment, and source of frustration every window, is that I don't believe our financially prudent, non-oligarch approach is mutually exclusive with being able to sign a decent pacy attacking forward, a striker, and someone who can offer competition to Eriksen. With those three signings, and if they worked out of course, I believe we would certainly be much closer to City, much more so than the other big clubs.

I am absolutely without doubt that we could have spent £30m on a better player than Sissoko, for example. Did anyone think that was a good idea, apart from presumably Poch and/or Levy? Yes, not all signings prove successful, but if we can't get superstars, then we need to be going all out for the next generation of stars - players like Pulisic - while the core of our squad is still together.

shelfboy68 · Dec 20, 2017

Johnny J said:
My issue with our recruitment, and source of frustration every window, is that I don't believe our financially prudent, non-oligarch approach is mutually exclusive with being able to sign a decent pacy attacking forward, a striker, and someone who can offer competition to Eriksen. With those three signings, and if they worked out of course, I believe we would certainly be much closer to City, much more so than the other big clubs.

I am absolutely without doubt that we could have spent £30m on a better player than Sissoko, for example. Did anyone think that was a good idea, apart from presumably Poch and/or Levy? Yes, not all signings prove successful, but if we can't get superstars, then we need to be going all out for the next generation of stars - players like Pulisic - while the core of our squad is still together.

Agree but maybe those players don't want to come to us.

ultimateloner · Dec 20, 2017

I also want us to play our home-grown players but I accept we wont be competing on Man City's level with this approach.

The fact of the matter is we have less resources. Unless we have both a better strategy AND execution we can't expect to compete with those above us. From what I can tell the other 5 teams are no mugs either and are willing to spend big; and our home-grown players aren't star-players so the best they can do be is to be a content squad player (Winks etc). I'm cool with that, and also that we are unlikely to win anything going down this path.

I think other fans should accept this.

Johnny J · Dec 20, 2017

shelfboy68 said:
Agree but maybe those players don't want to come to us.

I agree that many probably don't. But (and this isnt directed at you!) there's something seriously wrong when our attacking signings wouldn't make the first 11 in teams well below us in the league. I'm not sure Janssen, GKN or N'jie (sp) would start for many other teams in the league. I don't expect us to sign forwards that City and the like can throw 200k per week at, but I do expect us to sign players that are better - and certainly not worse - than the likes of Southampton are attracting.

shelfboy68 · Dec 20, 2017

Johnny J said:
I agree that many probably don't. But (and this isnt directed at you!) there's something seriously wrong when our attacking signings wouldn't make the first 11 in teams well below us in the league. I'm not sure Janssen, GKN or N'jie (sp) would start for many other teams in the league. I don't expect us to sign forwards that City and the like can throw 200k per week at, but I do expect us to sign players that are better - and certainly not worse - than the likes of Southampton are attracting.

Yes I take your point with all these scouts we have and yet we are still struggling for a decent support striker or a midfield player that can pick a pass, I accept we can't and won't attract the best nor will we ever win a league but certainly should be able to pick better than what we have otherwise what's the point of the network.

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 20, 2017

ultimateloner said:
I also want us to play our home-grown players but I accept we wont be competing on Man City's level with this approach.

The fact of the matter is we have less resources. Unless we have both a better strategy AND execution we can't expect to compete with those above us. From what I can tell the other 5 teams are no mugs either and are willing to spend big; and our home-grown players aren't star-players so the best they can do be is to be a content squad player (Winks etc). I'm cool with that, and also that we are unlikely to win anything going down this path.

I think other fans should accept this.

I think while we were at WHL we had to accept being behind L’pool and the goons in terms of resources. As I’ve outlined in an earlier post the new stadium is going to change that as we, the fans, will be paying more in gate receipts than at any other stadium in the country. In any industry if you ask customers to pay a premium price you need to deliver a premium product. We won’t match Manure because of the commercial revs and there is no point including the 2 oil clubs but I’d expect us to compete financially with the goons and scousers. If come the new stadium we still find ourselves losing out on players like Mane due to finances there is something very wrong.

tiger666 · Dec 20, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
We won’t match Manure because of the commercial revs and there is no point including the 2 oil clubs but I’d expect us to compete financially with the goons and scousers. If come the new stadium we still find ourselves losing out on players like Mane due to finances there is something very wrong.

Arsenal and Liverpool's commercial revenue also dwarfs ours. They have a far bigger following. It's not even close.

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 20, 2017

tiger666 said:
Arsenal and Liverpool's commercial revenue also dwarfs ours. They have a far bigger following. It's not even close.

Isn’t the biggest component of commercial revenue sponsorship deals like kit and shirt sponsors ?

SUIYHA · Dec 20, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
I think while we were at WHL we had to accept being behind L’pool and the goons in terms of resources. As I’ve outlined in an earlier post the new stadium is going to change that as we, the fans, will be paying more in gate receipts than at any other stadium in the country. In any industry if you ask customers to pay a premium price you need to deliver a premium product. We won’t match Manure because of the commercial revs and there is no point including the 2 oil clubs but I’d expect us to compete financially with the goons and scousers. If come the new stadium we still find ourselves losing out on players like Mane due to finances there is something very wrong.

The new stadium is going to help bridge the gap, but we will need a sustained period as part of the "big six" and a significant trophy haul to come anywhere close to the finances of the other clubs in that group. At the last publication of football finances (for the end of the 2015-16 season), it transpired that the gap between us and even Liverpool in terms of revenue was bigger than it was between us and West Ham (pre-London Stadium), Leicester, Newcastle, Southampton or Everton, and bear in mind that Liverpool were not playing in the Champions League that season. We were further behind Arsenal than any club was behind us, including Bournemouth. It was a similar story when it came to the wage bill - we were the 6th highest payers, Arsenal were 5th, and yet the gap between us and them was bigger than it was to any club below us in the league.

Of course, the next three seasons are going to make interesting reading, when you see the Champions League revenue, then Wembley, and then of course the new WHL added to our total. But the above should help to illustrate just how far behind we will be coming from.

It makes you realise what an insanely good job Levy and co have done to get us to be considered one of the "big six". That's not to say that Levy hasn't made any mistakes but to be branded as part of the elite in the eyes of the footballing world with this sort of resource gap is remarkable. Until 2009 I thought the big four were untouchable. Then Man City won the lottery and spent the GDP of some countries to break in. That should be what is required. And yet, here we are, finishing in the top four in half of the seasons of the 2010s so far.

daryl hannah · Dec 20, 2017

shelfboy68 said:
Agree but maybe those players don't want to come to us.

we're clearly not offering enough.

all we can offer is a big break to someone overseas, or in Sissoko's case, a chance to be hated by a different fanbase.

am_yisrael_chai · Dec 21, 2017

SUIYHA said:
The new stadium is going to help bridge the gap, but we will need a sustained period as part of the "big six" and a significant trophy haul to come anywhere close to the finances of the other clubs in that group. At the last publication of football finances (for the end of the 2015-16 season), it transpired that the gap between us and even Liverpool in terms of revenue was bigger than it was between us and West Ham (pre-London Stadium), Leicester, Newcastle, Southampton or Everton, and bear in mind that Liverpool were not playing in the Champions League that season. We were further behind Arsenal than any club was behind us, including Bournemouth. It was a similar story when it came to the wage bill - we were the 6th highest payers, Arsenal were 5th, and yet the gap between us and them was bigger than it was to any club below us in the league.

Of course, the next three seasons are going to make interesting reading, when you see the Champions League revenue, then Wembley, and then of course the new WHL added to our total. But the above should help to illustrate just how far behind we will be coming from.

It makes you realise what an insanely good job Levy and co have done to get us to be considered one of the "big six". That's not to say that Levy hasn't made any mistakes but to be branded as part of the elite in the eyes of the footballing world with this sort of resource gap is remarkable. Until 2009 I thought the big four were untouchable. Then Man City won the lottery and spent the GDP of some countries to break in. That should be what is required. And yet, here we are, finishing in the top four in half of the seasons of the 2010s so far.

I’m afraid I don’t understand why we need a sustained period to close the gap. None of the clubs above have been storing away a war chest, they pretty much spend what they make. So if we close the revenue gap then we should be financially competitive immediately. I think the figures for 2017/18 will show that the gap is much smaller due to the new sponsorship deals and Wembley. The new stadium will mean we have the highest gate receipts, quite considerably more than Liverpool, and I’d be surprised if it didn’t bring us very close or even above them in terms of total revenues. Of course we will have a drain in terms of financing the stadium but the big unknown there is how big a stadium naming rights deal we can secure, get the right deal and it could pay for half the cost of the stadium, not the overall project but the other aspects of the project such as the hotel and the housing should by definition be at least self sustaining otherwise why build them

Japhet · Dec 21, 2017

The unveiling of our new stadium should be a bumper year for us, but that vision seems to be slipping at the moment. We punched way above our weight for a couple of season and improved year on year but everybody knew that the big guns would hit their stride sooner or later. Chelsea did it last year, Utd. and City have joined them this year while we have regressed. We missed our transfer targets in the summer. Zaha was allegedly top of the list but we didn't offer him the wages whilst CP were prepared to chuck a whole chunk of their TV money at keeping him. Then we missed out on Balde who could have been a handy signing. We'll see in January whether we intend to make a fight of it for the rest of the season, but I suspect Levy will continue along his usual lines. The biggest concern for me is that Poch will eventually get frustrated and jump ship though.

ultimateloner · Dec 21, 2017

am_yisrael_chai said:
I think while we were at WHL we had to accept being behind L’pool and the goons in terms of resources. As I’ve outlined in an earlier post the new stadium is going to change that as we, the fans, will be paying more in gate receipts than at any other stadium in the country. In any industry if you ask customers to pay a premium price you need to deliver a premium product. We won’t match Manure because of the commercial revs and there is no point including the 2 oil clubs but I’d expect us to compete financially with the goons and scousers. If come the new stadium we still find ourselves losing out on players like Mane due to finances there is something very wrong.

Yep agree stadium is the game changer. I was thinking short term wasn't thinking about this.

Metalhead · Dec 21, 2017

Johnny J said:
My issue with our recruitment, and source of frustration every window, is that I don't believe our financially prudent, non-oligarch approach is mutually exclusive with being able to sign a decent pacy attacking forward, a striker, and someone who can offer competition to Eriksen. With those three signings, and if they worked out of course, I believe we would certainly be much closer to City, much more so than the other big clubs.

I am absolutely without doubt that we could have spent £30m on a better player than Sissoko, for example. Did anyone think that was a good idea, apart from presumably Poch and/or Levy? Yes, not all signings prove successful, but if we can't get superstars, then we need to be going all out for the next generation of stars - players like Pulisic - while the core of our squad is still together.

That's the thing, people go on about tight purse strings but the money has been there for big money signings. The question is whether the money has been spent wisely.

Metalhead · Dec 21, 2017

Japhet said:
The unveiling of our new stadium should be a bumper year for us, but that vision seems to be slipping at the moment. We punched way above our weight for a couple of season and improved year on year but everybody knew that the big guns would hit their stride sooner or later. Chelsea did it last year, Utd. and City have joined them this year while we have regressed. We missed our transfer targets in the summer. Zaha was allegedly top of the list but we didn't offer him the wages whilst CP were prepared to chuck a whole chunk of their TV money at keeping him. Then we missed out on Balde who could have been a handy signing. We'll see in January whether we intend to make a fight of it for the rest of the season, but I suspect Levy will continue along his usual lines. The biggest concern for me is that Poch will eventually get frustrated and jump ship though.

January is a terrible window for signings. I wouldn't necessarily blame Levy if we don't do much and Poch is not the type of manager who just likes numbers. There has to be good reason and a lot of scouting first.

jonathanhotspur · Dec 21, 2017

shelfboy68 said:
Still think we need a quality passer in midfield.

But we've got Dembele, and he's a genius.

tiger666 · Dec 21, 2017

jonathanhotspur said:
But we've got Dembele, and he's a genius.

But not a quality passer.

TwanYid · Dec 21, 2017

What I don't get is this notion that out of the "big 6," somehow we are the poor, neglected stepchild, feeding off the scraps of the meals the other five regularly get to devour, all because their "daddies" are all richer than our daddy. Yet our daddy is also a Billionaire! So why in hell can't papa Joe pony up a bit of dough- perhaps just enough to get us over the hump? Is he a "poor" Billionaire? Is he a penny-pinching Billionaire? Is he an I-don't-give-a-flying-fuck-about-the-team-I-own-and-have-no-interest-in-plunking-down-even-one-red-cent-of-my-own-personal-fortune-on-them-now-or-in-the-future-type Billionaire?

I mean look- yes- among the group there are extravagant oligarchs like Abramovich and Shiek Mansour-- fellas who don't seem to mind spending money as long as their team wins and makes headlines for them- but what about Kroenke? Or Henry? Those two guys are not stupid businessmen (particularly John Henry)-- and I'm sure neither one of them is interested in creating an untenable, Leeds-like situation with either of their respective clubs. Yet when a Lacazette or a Wellbeck or a Mane comes available, those owners green light it and *BAM*- the player is acquired (often quite early on in the window) and lo and behold, goals start flying in from everywhere for the respective red shitstains...

But our Lewis can't do that?!? Would that really "change our wage structure that badly? And so what if it did-- I mean I don't see Liverpool players up in arms about to revolt because of what Sadio Mane makes! Why is it always Tottenham who has (or would have) all of these super disaffected players who are like one lesser paycheck away from total mutiny? How do these other teams manage to keep their players happy when they acquire someone who "breaks their wage structure?" Why is it us that just "can't ever do this?"

And why are we the ones with the (apparently) tight-fisted multi-billionaire? And wouldn't some risk-taking player investment (i.e., stumping up the cash for a proven winner) actually generate more wins (thereby raising our profile) and, as such, eventually generate more income in the long run for them? Win/win if you ask me-- as long as you do it smart.

I don't get it...

dontcallme · Dec 21, 2017

TwanYid said:
What I don't get is this notion that out of the "big 6," somehow we are the poor, neglected stepchild, feeding off the scraps of the meals the other five regularly get to devour, all because their "daddies" are all richer than our daddy. Yet our daddy is also a Billionaire! So why in hell can't papa Joe pony up a bit of dough- perhaps just enough to get us over the hump? Is he a "poor" Billionaire? Is he a penny-pinching Billionaire? Is he an I-don't-give-a-flying-fuck-about-the-team-I-own-and-have-no-interest-in-plunking-down-even-one-red-cent-of-my-own-personal-fortune-on-them-now-or-in-the-future-type Billionaire?

I mean look- yes- among the group there are extravagant oligarchs like Abramovich and Shiek Mansour-- fellas who don't seem to mind spending money as long as their team wins and makes headlines for them- but what about Kroenke? Or Henry? Those two guys are not stupid businessmen (particularly John Henry)-- and I'm sure neither one of them is interested in creating an untenable, Leeds-like situation with either of their respective clubs. Yet when a Lacazette or a Wellbeck or a Mane comes available, those owners green light it and *BAM*- the player is acquired (often quite early on in the window) and lo and behold, goals start flying in from everywhere for the respective red shitstains...

But our Lewis can't do that?!? Would that really "change our wage structure that badly? And so what if it did-- I mean I don't see Liverpool players up in arms about to revolt because of what Sadio Mane makes! Why is it always Tottenham who has (or would have) all of these super disaffected players who are like one lesser paycheck away from total mutiny? How do these other teams manage to keep their players happy when they acquire someone who "breaks their wage structure?" Why is it us that just "can't ever do this?"

And why are we the ones with the (apparently) tight-fisted multi-billionaire? And wouldn't some risk-taking player investment (i.e., stumping up the cash for a proven winner) actually generate more wins (thereby raising our profile) and, as such, eventually generate more income in the long run for them? Win/win if you ask me-- as long as you do it smart.

I don't get it...

You don't understand the difference between a rich investor owner and an oligarch using a club to get position and a plah thing?

Liverpool have tried spending huge and adding to their profile, we beat them almost every season.

TwanYid · Dec 21, 2017

dontcallme said:
You don't understand the difference between a rich investor owner and an oligarch using a club to get position and a plah thing?

Liverpool have tried spending huge and adding to their profile, we beat them almost every season.

To me a billionaire is a billionaire. If you are so wealthy that you will never run out of money- and you own a football team on the cusp of greatness that would clearly be helped buy a relatively small (in the scheme of things) cash infusion-- one that could actually come to benefit you in the long run-- then why not do it? In for a penny, in for a Pound- right? I understand the idea of Spurs being run as a profitable business- one that remains firmly in the black, year after year- but wouldn't you (Joe Lewis) derive pleasure from being a true European (so therefore world) powerhouse? I don't think it would be that hard (or cost that much) to do this! Yes we would have to tweak our vaunted "wage structure" but so what? Is that really such a Pandora's box that once opened we'd be firmly on the road to doing a Leeds? And if so, why aren't Liverpool doing a Leeds?

We are a London club with an increasingly growing worldwide profile. If we keep this up (if we keep winning/playing in the Champions league/etc.) then there will be a whole generation of kids that will support us because we will be seen as the "cool" team (as opposed to merely being Ars*nal's ugly kid sister and Chelscum's bitch). My point is that NOW is the time to reach into the billionaire bank account and up the ante a bit. We don't have to be City but we also don't have to be conservative, unimaginative, forever-last-minute-deal-making Spurs. Hell, shittier teams than us manage to acquire exciting offensive talent- why is it such a rarity with us?

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