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Player Watch: Marcus Edwards

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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there is a group on here and elsewhere online who make out like Poch and the coaching staff have some kind of agenda against our academy

I know you didn't want to be drawn back in and I apologise as we always go back and forth, but this isn't true.

The issue is the league is not conducive to giving young players chances due to the pressure of losing and the money available, so buying a player with a bit of experience is less risky than introducing your own, which may reap more rewards. I just think Poch has fallen into that trap. He has no more agenda against our academy than any other manager has against theirs.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Just interested to hear what are people's current percentage prediction that Edwards will make it here as a first team player?

I've seen him play 90 mins for us and England in age group matches about 7 or 8 times, and I really think he has tremendous quality, but I'd still only give it about 15-20% chance of him establishing himself here.

Why do you think that is, despite you saying he has tremendous quality?

Percentages are hard to say but I don't think it's likely. Like you I've seen Edwards play a lot, I'd guess over the last 4 years potentially between 30 and 40 times. think he has a load of quality. I think if he is given a legit chance he has a 70% chances of making it for us and a very very good chance of becoming one of the PL's best players and possibly World Class.

What are the chances of him establishing himself, well that is dependent on when the manager wants to give him a chance. For all we know he may never be ready. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for him to get his chance, but I would love if he did. Patience will be needed as ever
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
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Why do you think that is, despite you saying he has tremendous quality?

Percentages are hard to say but I don't think it's likely. Like you I've seen Edwards play a lot, I'd guess over the last 4 years potentially between 30 and 40 times. think he has a load of quality. I think if he is given a legit chance he has a 70% chances of making it for us and a very very good chance of becoming one of the PL's best players and possibly World Class.

What are the chances of him establishing himself, well that is dependent on when the manager wants to give him a chance. For all we know he may never be ready. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for him to get his chance, but I would love if he did. Patience will be needed as ever
We'll just generally the chances of academy players making it in a squad as strong as ours is pretty small. Yes, he has quality, but that's not enough. The physicality is a big thing, and the drive and determination are another.

Hard to know if he's got the full package. But I was asking the question because I was interested to see the expectations people were holding for him, and if people were as sanguine as me.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
We'll just generally the chances of academy players making it in a squad as strong as ours is pretty small. Yes, he has quality, but that's not enough. The physicality is a big thing, and the drive and determination are another.

Hard to know if he's got the full package. But I was asking the question because I was interested to see the expectations people were holding for him, and if people were as sanguine as me.

I'm sure he has enough drive and determination seeing as it's what he has dreamed of and worked his ass off for, for the last decade. I don't think this is the stage where he is going to pack it in.

Either way I'm pessimistic as like you say it is generally difficult for players to come through, we can only hope
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
I'm sure he has enough drive and determination seeing as it's what he has dreamed of and worked his ass off for, for the last decade. I don't think this is the stage where he is going to pack it in.

Either way I'm pessimistic as like you say it is generally difficult for players to come through, we can only hope
Every player in every academy will dream and work to a certain extent - but it's the ones who are prepared to go further that give themselves a real chance. It's having an almost un-natural maturity at such a young age, being able to really listen to criticism and take it onboard.

I really hope he can put the work in this year, get his body strong and fill out a little bit, because the opportunity is there for him if he can grasp it.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
I don't see why the criteria is that they have to make it.

Personally I don't know whether Edwards, or any other youth player ever, will 'make it' and survive at first team level. But then the same is true of signings - I had no problem for instance with the Foyth or Sanchez signings, but I don't know if they will work out ultimately, for any number of reasons. As the extreme example we could even sign Messi and I couldn't tell you for sure it would work out. My point is there is often as substantial risk with signings as there is with blooding an academy kid, but modern football, especially this country, has the mindset that it's not so bad if you've thrown a bit of money about, regardless of their experience.

All you can go on is what you have seen, what they do that impresses you and can potentially add to the squad, and if they have consistently shown this and so you then feel they deserve chances at first team level. As I say, who knows what happens at that point, some might sink whilst others might swim, but I wouldn't be afraid to find out. Even if they 'only' become a fringe squad player for a couple of years before they move on then that's fulfilling a remit, and if you've got a decent production line in place then the next lot will be coming through to take their place... Then the odd ones might hit the heights and 'do a Kane'. Really that's no different to what most clubs do with the revolving-door squad filler they buy in each year.

The way I see it is that I'd much rather look at what you have at the club first to fill certain remits/holes, and then as a last resort reach for the chequebook. We as a club are doing ok with young players, there's always room to do a lot better, and English football needs to do fuckloads better. Of course a lot of these kids wouldn't make it, I'd be fairly sure there would be a good number that did though if they got a chance. But I don't see that changing with the pressure of the money and clubs feeling they are standing still if they aren't spending tens of millions each transfer window. The whole culture, including the media, has to change.
 
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The Apprentice

Charles Big Potatoes
Mar 10, 2005
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Apply all the pseudo-tactical analysis you want on it, the fact Poch trusts Sissoko to deliver more than Onomah, should at least give you the basis to question his judgement.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,989
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i think the effect of physicality is exaggerated in English football. of course most of the time it gives you an advantage, but technique is also important (e.g. sissoko), i believe that a smaller player can outplay a stronger player by his techniques
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2014
2,744
7,424
What hapepned to that manager who, threw caution to wind, and just gave inexperienced players games? I want to see more of that.

When poch took over we had a team of absolute tossers and one that no one had much faith in. This meant it was easier for poch to go young with players who are more likely listen to him and work harder.

Now we have a quality team with 2 or 3 excellent players outside that 11.

This in it's self makes it harder to intergrate younger players now especially in PL games.

Getting champion league football has also narrowed down game time we can give to these young players also.

Players who he's given minutes too if they've done well ( Winks ) have stayed around the squad and the ones who haven't ( Onomah ) for whatever reason have gone or been loaned out to get valuable game time.

Most people are currently pushing this because of Edwards but I'm inclined to go with poch on this one.

Has come of a injury hit season which also included a stand off with the club on his contract so he's got to make up for what he missed.

To many what to breakthrough to quick imo these days whether ready or not.
 

dondo

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,603
14,091
Yup, there was no plan for him in the first team, injuries forced Van Gaal's hand which goes to show that there must be a whole host of good young players that only need that break and a little bit of luck.


This imo is probably happening a lot.
How many other rashfords are falling through the cracks of the system?
It's great having the forgein quality players come over here but the average ones are blocking the academy players breaking through
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
This imo is probably happening a lot.
How many other rashfords are falling through the cracks of the system?
It's great having the forgein quality players come over here but the average ones are blocking the academy players breaking through

Yeah Van gaal was forced into it as much as anything through injuries, plus he was nowhere near a title anyway. PL is cut throat to the extreme because of how financially muscular clubs are. Bilic has played Declan Rice a few times, and he had a bad game v Newcastle, will we see him again when bilic's job is already on the line?

And this is the problem, continous youth development isn't realistic anymore in the Premiership because managers are under pressure to deliver. PL is ruthless and there's a lot of pressure in the league so most clubs don't have the time to be nurturing kids especially when there's so much money involved in the league and we're dealing with tight margins.

Difficult one for Poch, people want us challenging for the title and he has to deliver a trophy to keep the current crop happy and to stop the vultures circling...at the same time people want him to chuck young players in the first team who clearly haven't win his trust...I mean I'm all for the youth and love when a youth team player makes progress up to the first team but likewise I want my club to be successful and keep pushing on, if that means the manager overlooks a young player with potential and goes out and buy's a player who he thinks will push the team on then so be it.
 

rio bryan

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2006
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Big premier league teams will generally only play youngsters who they expect will hit the ground running and too do that they have to be exceptional.
 

SugarRay

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2011
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Give him a loan at a level where he'll get regular starts and minutes. The u23 league is just nothingness
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
When poch took over we had a team of absolute tossers and one that no one had much faith in. This meant it was easier for poch to go young with players who are more likely listen to him and work harder.

Again, that's a great point and I agree. The only reason those players played was because his hand was forced by a load of terrible players. I didn't want to say it, as I would be nitpicking and making excuses, but it's true. It's essentially the same as the Van Gaal situation and how Kane got his chance via Soldado and Adebayor flopping. In my opinion brining your best players through or giving chances should come down to pure chance. Others believe that is acceptabel but I don't. I think we have more Kanes and there are more Rashfords in other academies I've seen who if people had faith in them, rather than buying an average player and sticking them in their way, we could see better players and stronger teams.

Now we have a quality team with 2 or 3 excellent players outside that 11.

This in it's self makes it harder to intergrate younger players now especially in PL games.

Getting champion league football has also narrowed down game time we can give to these young players also.

Shouldn't this be the test of how good a manager or club is at bringing through players. As I have said in previous posts, there are always excuses. When clubs are in relegation zones, the youth get dropped for experience. A few seasons ago it was we are trying to get Champions League football, and now it's we're going for the title. What condition is it appropriate to start introducing them? Like you say we don't have EL. Would Kane have come through if we were a CL team. if the answer is no? Ask yourself does the system work? Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund, PSG have continued to win titles or compete in the CL while still introducing talented players.

And this is the problem, continous youth development isn't realistic anymore in the Premiership because managers are under pressure to deliver. PL is ruthless and there's a lot of pressure in the league so most clubs don't have the time to be nurturing kids especially when there's so much money involved in the league and we're dealing with tight margins.

I know what you're saying but I do think it is realistic if you change your mindset. Not you personally of course as ultimately we don't make decisions. You say we don't have time to be nurturing kids but we have time to nurture (average)foreign players. Just playing 5+ games is instantly more reassuring for managers than a kid having played no games, and time will be given to that player to develop rather than introducing an academy player. I had no problem in us signing Lamela and players of that ilk but even a circa 30m signing was given 2 seasons to settle. Sissoko a 27 year old who has played in the PL for 5 years, people said he should be given time, and we have seen his ceiling. Time is given to N'Koudou, no player (though KWP did) is going to come in and win MOTMs but if given the same patience you would see some top players come through, they wouldn't do any worse than the players above have done given the same money. The mentality of the PL is just safety first. it's like offering someone £500k then offering to take it or double or nothing on a coin toss. Like most people the PL and managers are taking that £500k which represents foreign signings, but don't want to take the risk on the academy player who could be so much better than that signed player but could equally bomb or not handle that pressure, as they are an unknown quality. This is currently where the PL is at. This is why I place so much emphasis and credibility on the manager that gave them that first real opportunity. That is the hardest part.

Big premier league teams will generally only play youngsters who they expect will hit the ground running and too do that they have to be exceptional.

And this is an incredibly unrealistic expectation. Let's look at the Onomah/Dembele situation. You're expecting Onomah a player with zero competitive experience, to show in training (and if he ever got a chance) to be as good in his first game or first season, as an international who has played for 5 years in the PL as one of the best CM. How good was Dembele when he first started. How unrealistic is that. It's setting up to fail. I don't expect that of him but I do expect he could be that good after a year. You have to accept there will be a fall off in quality. I am 95% confident that he will be as good as any PL CM in the bottom half of the table in his first few matches and probably at least as goof as Sissoko, but the only way he proves his worthiness is being better than the best CM in the league. Why is that fair? We accept Sissoko won't be that good and accept the lower standard that comes with it, or when Dier players, so why not with an academy player?

KWP hit the ground running and what was his reward. What more could he do? There will be a fall off but if trust is placed in them and everyone else, plays at their best they will help them along. It will never just be the academy players fault, but they will be the scapegoat. As Shady said above will we see Rice again?
 

LexingtonSpurs

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Aug 27, 2013
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Would Kane have come through if we were a CL team. if the answer is no? Ask yourself does the system work? Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund, PSG have continued to win titles or compete in the CL while still introducing talented players.
Kane is a world class striker. He would have come through.

The last 4 "young" players to break into the 1st team: Dier, Kane, Dele, and Winks. Dier forced his way into the squad from Day 1, despite being a low-profile acquisition with little to no expectations. Kane broke into the first team when he played well when given the chance, and Adebayor and Soldado failed. Dele came here as a winter acquisition, and I would bet about half the people here expected us to loan him out his first season - after all he had never played above League 1. Yet, the very first reports we got were that he was impressing in training. He started the season on the bench, but took his opportunities well, and forced himself into the line-up. Winks is another who worked hard in training, and took his sub appearances well, and was forcing himself into the starting line-up - in a rotation at least, when he was injured.

in all of these examples - none were high-priced acquisitions. All of them worked hard in training, and proved themselves there - first. Then, they made the most of the match minutes they were given, carving out bigger roles.

Nothing was given - everything was earned, which is how it should be. And, its how Poch expects it to be for every player - he does not want people asking for minutes, he wants people showing they deserve minutes.

Academy players are no different - they are given an opportunity to earn minutes in training. Its up to them to show their qualities and seize the moment. Nothing should be given to them - because it devalues the work that everyone else is putting in to earn minutes on their own.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Kane is a world class striker. He would have come through.

The last 4 "young" players to break into the 1st team: Dier, Kane, Dele, and Winks. Dier forced his way into the squad from Day 1, despite being a low-profile acquisition with little to no expectations. Kane broke into the first team when he played well when given the chance, and Adebayor and Soldado failed. Dele came here as a winter acquisition, and I would bet about half the people here expected us to loan him out his first season - after all he had never played above League 1. Yet, the very first reports we got were that he was impressing in training. He started the season on the bench, but took his opportunities well, and forced himself into the line-up. Winks is another who worked hard in training, and took his sub appearances well, and was forcing himself into the starting line-up - in a rotation at least, when he was injured.

in all of these examples - none were high-priced acquisitions. All of them worked hard in training, and proved themselves there - first. Then, they made the most of the match minutes they were given, carving out bigger roles.

Nothing was given - everything was earned, which is how it should be. And, its how Poch expects it to be for every player - he does not want people asking for minutes, he wants people showing they deserve minutes.

Academy players are no different - they are given an opportunity to earn minutes in training. Its up to them to show their qualities and seize the moment. Nothing should be given to them - because it devalues the work that everyone else is putting in to earn minutes on their own.
Whilst I agree with you, we also have to taken into account that these players all had experience of men's football, so they weren't being thrown into the deep end quite as much as some Who's only experienced youth level football.

In this country it's going to be hard for our youngsters to get loans as we emphasise technique with little thought to the physical side of things, which is great for our first team long term but makes players less desirable in the lower leagues.

Personally in regards to bringing through youngsters in the PL like @IGSpur is saying, the only way it is going to change is if the FA bring in a quota for players in the match day squad that brought through the yeams academy.
 

SpursD22

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Aug 3, 2017
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What Championship club would suit him? Fulham, Sheffield United, Bristol City comes to my mind. Maybe Norwich?
 
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