topper
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- Jan 27, 2008
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Could he be going on loan? See the Edwards thread
The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018
- Thread starter IGSpur
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Blake Griffin
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- Oct 3, 2011
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1-0 roles.
and now it's 1-1.
and now it's 1-1.
Bus-Conductor
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It’s not usually about “fast tracked” more just having a track.
Nobody has ever questioned Onomah’s attitude, including Poch (that I can remember) and KWP has been lauded by his team mates and Poch for his attitude.
It’s a worthy philosophy to insist on all players having the right attitude and application, but that doesn’t really explain why Onomah wasn’t given a chance to play in his natural position once, or why he and KWP couldn’t be considered as better alternatives to Sissoko for CM/AM roles.
I want a coach with high values, but I also want one with some balls, inspiration and inventive imagination.
I’m not saying Poch never demonstrates those qualities, but let’s not pretend they aren’t vital too.
Coyboy
The Double of 1961 is still The Double
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I think there has been some questions on this.
Spurzinho
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His drive has been questioned. He's a laid back guy with a laid back playing style. Its not hard to see why it would rub Poch up the wrong way.
Disconosebleed
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- Dec 22, 2005
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Is Cy Goddard still at the club? He is in the youth team on FM18 but as far as I knew he had left a while back, and was training with a Japanese side?
Re. Poch's use of the youngsters - you have to remember that the youth team is only one element of his job, and bringing in young players isn't an end in itself; his priority is the success of the first team. If that involves loads of young, local kids playing regularly at the new Lane then brilliant. If not, then as long as we're still producing players who could play for the club - and who will at least be developed to the extent that they can enjoy a long career in the game - while the first team is successful, then that's fine.
Some managers pay little or no attention to the youth team, focusing entirely on short-term success - usually firefighters like Allardyce and Pulis, or managers like Conte and Mourinho who don't hang around long enough at any one club to bother with the kids. At the other end of the scale, you have managers who rely on the youth setup to provide first team players; usually they are managing teams who don't have a lot of money to go out and buy ready-made first team players.
Pochettino is somewhere in the middle. He's shown a willingness to play young players if he thinks they are ready, with Alli and Winks becoming first team regulars without much of a settling-in period. But he won't play the kids just for the sake of it, because his priority is still the success of the club. By all accounts he takes great interest in the youth teams at various levels, and prefers to have young players stay at the club where he can monitor them, rather than send them all over the place on loans where he has less control over what happens to them.
It seems clear to me that Pochettino is completely on top of the youth setup at our club, and knows what he wants from the kids if they are to get a chance in the first team. Clearly there are a lot of people on here who are hardcore 'fans' of our youth team, so they are more inclined to want to see those kids coming through - I would ask them (not a rhetorical question) is your priority seeing youngsters in the team, or seeing youngsters in a successful side? Because IMO where we are right now is pretty much the sweet spot - neither blooding kids for the sake of it regardless of their quality/potential, nor ignoring the younger age groups in favour of going for short-term success.
We have a manager who has turned us into a fantastic team competing at the top of the Premier League, while providing youngsters with opportunities if they reach the high standards he demands - and even if they don't make it, they are getting an excellent football education which ensures they can make a career for themselves, whether it's at Tottenham or elsewhere. I don't really see what more you could ask for - hasn't he earned enough trust to accept that if Edwards, Walker-Peters or whoever else aren't currently trusted enough to feature, there's probably a good reason? You can disagree with individual decisions like KWP vs Trippier, but questioning the overall policy seems mad to me because he's overseen success both in the success of the first team and the development of young players, while making sure not to over-prioritise either, ensuring we remain competitive in both the short-term and the long-term.
Re. Poch's use of the youngsters - you have to remember that the youth team is only one element of his job, and bringing in young players isn't an end in itself; his priority is the success of the first team. If that involves loads of young, local kids playing regularly at the new Lane then brilliant. If not, then as long as we're still producing players who could play for the club - and who will at least be developed to the extent that they can enjoy a long career in the game - while the first team is successful, then that's fine.
Some managers pay little or no attention to the youth team, focusing entirely on short-term success - usually firefighters like Allardyce and Pulis, or managers like Conte and Mourinho who don't hang around long enough at any one club to bother with the kids. At the other end of the scale, you have managers who rely on the youth setup to provide first team players; usually they are managing teams who don't have a lot of money to go out and buy ready-made first team players.
Pochettino is somewhere in the middle. He's shown a willingness to play young players if he thinks they are ready, with Alli and Winks becoming first team regulars without much of a settling-in period. But he won't play the kids just for the sake of it, because his priority is still the success of the club. By all accounts he takes great interest in the youth teams at various levels, and prefers to have young players stay at the club where he can monitor them, rather than send them all over the place on loans where he has less control over what happens to them.
It seems clear to me that Pochettino is completely on top of the youth setup at our club, and knows what he wants from the kids if they are to get a chance in the first team. Clearly there are a lot of people on here who are hardcore 'fans' of our youth team, so they are more inclined to want to see those kids coming through - I would ask them (not a rhetorical question) is your priority seeing youngsters in the team, or seeing youngsters in a successful side? Because IMO where we are right now is pretty much the sweet spot - neither blooding kids for the sake of it regardless of their quality/potential, nor ignoring the younger age groups in favour of going for short-term success.
We have a manager who has turned us into a fantastic team competing at the top of the Premier League, while providing youngsters with opportunities if they reach the high standards he demands - and even if they don't make it, they are getting an excellent football education which ensures they can make a career for themselves, whether it's at Tottenham or elsewhere. I don't really see what more you could ask for - hasn't he earned enough trust to accept that if Edwards, Walker-Peters or whoever else aren't currently trusted enough to feature, there's probably a good reason? You can disagree with individual decisions like KWP vs Trippier, but questioning the overall policy seems mad to me because he's overseen success both in the success of the first team and the development of young players, while making sure not to over-prioritise either, ensuring we remain competitive in both the short-term and the long-term.
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Spurzinho
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Cy did leave us, yes. I believe he trialled with Yokohama (his ambition was always to play in Japan) but when that didn't pan out he was allowed to train with us for a while to maintain his fitness. I don't know what has happened to him since. He may still be training with us for all I know.
Bus-Conductor
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Blake Griffin
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i think i speak for most here when i say we only want to see those who are a) good enough and b) can offer something to the team. it's not just about getting youth players into the first team for the sake of it. georgiou for example was there for a while this season and he meets neither of the criteria mentioned, i'm happy for him that he got himself into the position but i probably have less will to see him in the first team than most posters outside of this thread. oakley-boothe is another who i think has been pushed up way too prematurely, he does have the potential to make it here in the long-term but his performances at youth level haven't merited the fast-tracking he's received. there are games however, like those at home to the bus-parkers, where i wish we had edwards there as an option because i think he could genuinely benefit the team.
it's already difficult for these kids to get a chance at a club like ours but poch really is stacking the deck against them in a lot of ways. typically for young players at a top club you have two avenues into first team football, the obvious one being loans which poch himself has pretty much said he prefers not to use(though this may now finally be changing) and the other is using cup/less important games or free hits towards the end of a game where the match is won and you can give a youngster a look just to see how he copes and if he can offer something to the team going forward, but again, poch says he doesn't believe in that way of doing things as apparently is doesn't suitably prepare them for the pressure and intensity of a real game.
there's never any chance of a player just being thrown in so you're not going to see a rashford type just come through out of nowhere, it's all very much a long and deliberate process they have to go through before they can even think of playing in an actual game. if it's really so difficult to give these kids opportunities then instead of harbouring them all at the club then why not just get them out there playing and then when one is performing to a level where they can no longer be ignored then bring them back and get them in the squad.
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Coyboy
The Double of 1961 is still The Double
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I seem to remember something @WindyCOYS said, or ITK; and there may have been something in Poch's book. I will check.
Disconosebleed
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- Dec 22, 2005
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Nice one for the detailed response.
I get where you're coming from with regard to the limited options Poch makes available for competitive football, and it's quite a persuasive argument which I hadn't fully considered before, but it seems to me that from Pochettino's point of view he will learn more about a player's ability to cope with first team football by bringing them into the first team squad training sessions than he will with low importance cup games or lower level league football. And while there is an argument against that - you can't recreate the competitivity (I can't think of a more suitable word right now and according to Google this does seem to be a real word so BACK OFF) of proper matches, lower league can 'toughen you up' etc), the other side of the coin is that you can't replicate the technical quality required for elite football by playing against, and alongside, an inferior standard of player.
As much as I enjoy the rush of "ooh, let's get a good look at them" when we play a few kids in the cups, it's probably not that useful for learning about any of them in particular; you'd learn more from putting out a strong side with one youngster, to see how he fits into a proper first team environment; you probably won't learn much about Kyle Walker-Peters' quality by playing him alongside a load of other kids, most of whom won't make it...stick him into a strong eleven and you'll learn a lot more IMO, and that seems to be Poch's view as well.
Long story short, I think Pochettino places a very high emphasis on training (not just his preference not to loan players out, but also his comments about new signings earning the right to train with the squad, not to play) and trusts that he will learn more about players through watching them - both live and on the various recordings from different angles we have nowadays - in training. It would also explain why players like Kyle Walker-Peters and latterly Harry Winks and Josh Onomah were brought into the squad but rarely played...they are there for the training, and the all-round education of what it takes to be a professional footballer. Pochettino doesn't see the value in giving players a run-out here and there to see if they might make it; there's too much room for error, what if a player has a storming debut but it isn't indicative of his overall quality, or vice versa? He watches them every day in training, and then gives them game time once he's comfortable that, if needed, they could come into the side without any worries about how they will cope.
Lost 2-1 then looks like we might be getting relegated. Apart from the embarrassment. What other implications could there be ?
Also if Edwards goes on loan could he still play in Champions league? Sure I heard about someone going on loan but then able to play in important youth games.
Also if Edwards goes on loan could he still play in Champions league? Sure I heard about someone going on loan but then able to play in important youth games.
SpursD22
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- Aug 3, 2017
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Marcud Edwards loaned out to Norwich for the rest of the season and Cameron Carter-Vickers is recalled
https://t.co/BnA1pGMfrN
https://t.co/BnA1pGMfrN
Cornpattbuck
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- Jul 23, 2013
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Weirdly more intrigued by what the deal is with CCV than I am by Marcus' loan. Fingers crossed for him, Norwich and us though that it all works out how we hope. Sure he'll storm it.
IGSpur
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I think there is a massive misconception here, that people just want to see academy players used for the sake of it. A&C posted a stat that Poch has given 8 debuts to academy players or something, all managers stat pad it means nothing and doesn't impress anyone and is ultimately pointless. If I give 10 academy players 10minutes to share out, it's nothing to be proud of. All I want for us is to win trophies. I don't care if it has an academy player in it or not, we could scrap the whole thing as long as we are winning trophies. Why on earth would I want an academy player to play for our first them if it is to the detriment of it. I want the best of our players to get chances, ahead of players bought for the squad and the same patience shown as I ultimately believe they will be better players than them and very possibly the first teamers. If we provided the same opportunity and scope for mistakes we did for Sissoko or GKN or whatever squad players as we did to our best academy players we may be in a better position. I can't see the future so do not 100% know, but history suggests we would.
I don't know how you measure World Class, but if we assumed that Top5 in your position was World Class we have had as many World Class players or maybe more come through our academy in the last 20 years as we have bought. I believe following that we are also more likely to bring through another World Class player judging on the ability there than we are to sign one. As a percentage of players brought through compared to sign more success has come through the academy, but it is arrogrant or deluded for me to believe we will find success from there again, rather than attempting to sign all and sundry from abroad. Even the majority of players people wanted us to sign in the past but didn't haven't turned out World Class, but it's normal and understandable to keep chasing them, and believe we will out bid the 5 clubs richer than us in our league alone. Why is so much faith put in signings from abroad and anything coming from the academy is considered luck. I know I'm not qualified and my opinion means little but if qualifications do matter, outside of, just being a manager, there a plenty of qualified people that believe we have players good enough.
I only want us to win, form what I have seen come through in the past, and what I have seen in the academy now, I believe using those players will give us the best chance of having top class players. Again if they don't we sell them and make money to contribute to fees for World Class players that are currently out of reach.
I don't think one should and never have. If I youth player doesn't want to work they can leave, but I have never heard a youth player slacking I've only heard positive reports from them in training
Controversial but Poch isn't any different to Mourinho or Conte, whichever measure you want to use. When Poch has been at a comparable sized club he has shown no more willingness to turn to his academy than any other manager. Difference is the others can be scrutinised and criticised while another has plenty of 'reasons' for his lack of use
Agree which is why I'd like one or 2 max academy players played alongside the first teamers and not 4/5 chucked in together with our squad players.
Lemon
End World Debt
- Jul 17, 2014
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Hope he smashes it, but also the absence makes his heart grow stronger. Come back fully focused and fit next season and get integrated like Winks.
