What's new

The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Johnny J

Not the Kiwi you need but the one you deserve
Aug 18, 2012
18,117
47,878
Others on here know far more than me, but it's disappointing that someone like KWP can be MoM in his first PL start and then hardly be seen again this season, Onomah struggling in a team that doesn't play to his strengths - and often out of position - having never been given a chance in his actual position for us, and Edwards, by common consent one of the most exciting players we have, not even getting a game (or even place on the bench?) this season before being loaned out.

I don't understand what we'd have lost by giving Onomah some game time instead of Sissoko, and Edwards the chance to show what he can do in a cup game or two. Oh and KWP a lot more than Trippier, who is a model pro but imo bang average.

Moan over, sorry.
 

bceej

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2013
2,444
3,191
Like Onomah never really thought Edwards should be loaned out, but if the options is a loan or training for a couple of more years this is the best option. Hopefully he settles and has a good time

Norwich seems like a good place for young players to develop. City and Southampton have sent players there, Pritchard's developed nicely, the Murphy brothers are well thought of. A few kids at the school I work at are on the books at Norwich and the school's in Camden...don't know how that works....
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Nice one for the detailed response.

I get where you're coming from with regard to the limited options Poch makes available for competitive football, and it's quite a persuasive argument which I hadn't fully considered before, but it seems to me that from Pochettino's point of view he will learn more about a player's ability to cope with first team football by bringing them into the first team squad training sessions than he will with low importance cup games or lower level league football. And while there is an argument against that - you can't recreate the competitivity (I can't think of a more suitable word right now and according to Google this does seem to be a real word so BACK OFF) of proper matches, lower league can 'toughen you up' etc), the other side of the coin is that you can't replicate the technical quality required for elite football by playing against, and alongside, an inferior standard of player.

As much as I enjoy the rush of "ooh, let's get a good look at them" when we play a few kids in the cups, it's probably not that useful for learning about any of them in particular; you'd learn more from putting out a strong side with one youngster, to see how he fits into a proper first team environment; you probably won't learn much about Kyle Walker-Peters' quality by playing him alongside a load of other kids, most of whom won't make it...stick him into a strong eleven and you'll learn a lot more IMO, and that seems to be Poch's view as well.

Long story short, I think Pochettino places a very high emphasis on training (not just his preference not to loan players out, but also his comments about new signings earning the right to train with the squad, not to play) and trusts that he will learn more about players through watching them - both live and on the various recordings from different angles we have nowadays - in training. It would also explain why players like Kyle Walker-Peters and latterly Harry Winks and Josh Onomah were brought into the squad but rarely played...they are there for the training, and the all-round education of what it takes to be a professional footballer. Pochettino doesn't see the value in giving players a run-out here and there to see if they might make it; there's too much room for error, what if a player has a storming debut but it isn't indicative of his overall quality, or vice versa? He watches them every day in training, and then gives them game time once he's comfortable that, if needed, they could come into the side without any worries about how they will cope.

I completely agree that the ideal scenario for integration is to introduce one player with full strength team in the league (or game that really matters), but I don’t agree that there’s nothing to be learned or gained from being played in other scenarios. Integration isn't always an instantaneous process, and getting sub minutes, starts in cups etc helps integrate, acclimatise and also can show a coach that a player can perform under the ultimate pressure of real senior football in front of proper crowds, whilst getting the player used to performing in those same circumstances.

And the problem is, Poch, like most PL coaches is extremely reluctant to do that (pick unproven in senior football players direct from academy/training first team to first team games that matter). So far in nearly 4 years the only player he's given a full senior debut in that way is KWP, this season, and then it was because he no other real choice and went out and bought another international RB a few days later, despite KWP coming through the test with flying colours.
 
Last edited:

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
Norwich seems like a good place for young players to develop. City and Southampton have sent players there, Pritchard's developed nicely, the Murphy brothers are well thought of. A few kids at the school I work at are on the books at Norwich and the school's in Camden...don't know how that works....
Norwich imo has been a poor place for Pritchard, he struggled with O'neal and then had to fight to show his worth, with him struggling before becoming one of their best players which then led to him leaving

In hindsight he should have gone Norwich but I dont blame him for thinking Norwich would go straight back up
 

taricco

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2010
540
2,084
But loans weren't necessary... Poch training regimes sorted everything... and no one was to dare question his methods......

It's a bit ridiculous. Poch is a young manager and the best we have had in my lifetime. But he's still learning (I'm sure he'd be the first to admit this) and will get stuff wrong. The idea that he's perfect is just silly.

My opinion is that he hasn't got the youth integration right - we have some of the most talented youngsters that have ever come through our academy and there seems to be a high chance that we are missing the boat with some of them. It's not an easy task and very very few premier league managers have got it right (especially with the pressure and short term nature of being at the very top). Whilst it is disappointing that Poch seems to be having the same difficulties we can only hope that he improves this part of his management over time.
 

taidgh

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2004
7,897
16,243
But loans weren't necessary... Poch training regimes sorted everything... and no one was to dare question his methods......
Right. Because no one is allowed to change their minds. Nor can they realize that certain situations require different approaches.

Maybe this is a WUM-my post, then fair enough. But if this is what you truly believe, then I despair...
 

Spurzinho

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2016
2,512
8,342
What had actually been said, by whom?

I could be misremembering but I thought one of the venerable itk's had suggested so. It is also an observation of my own. Onomah is too reactive off the ball and two ponderous on it. Onomah's qualities make him look imperious at times but he doesn't apply himself consistently enough to be played in his favoured position, hence being played in AM or wide. Onomah's time at Villa has been similar. When played in CM the game passes him by so he ends up getting shoved further forward in the hope that he can focus on his strengths but of course with less space and time he can't make his surging runs. There are crucial missing pieces to Onomah's game that are holding him back.
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
I could be misremembering but I thought one of the venerable itk's had suggested so. It is also an observation of my own. Onomah is too reactive off the ball and two ponderous on it. Onomah's qualities make him look imperious at times but he doesn't apply himself consistently enough to be played in his favoured position, hence being played in AM or wide. Onomah's time at Villa has been similar. When played in CM the game passes him by so he ends up getting shoved further forward in the hope that he can focus on his strengths but of course with less space and time he can't make his surging runs. There are crucial missing pieces to Onomah's game that are holding him back.
I have only seen one full match of Onomah playing CM for Villa, but he was the best player on the pitch, always in the right place at the right time to make an interception or pick up a loose ball.

He could read the game better, sure, but I think he reads it very well for a 20yo.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,512
Right. Because no one is allowed to change their minds. Nor can they realize that certain situations require different approaches.

Maybe this is a WUM-my post, then fair enough. But if this is what you truly believe, then I despair...

A (very) gentle jibe. He is a very good manager, but for years now he's been held up as some god-like youth guru by a lot of posters/fans and one who has the future of every prospect carefully mapped out as some masterplan and no-one dare question his methods. What we're increasingly seeing is certain players getting stuck in their development and this supposedly perfect approach of training regimes/tutoring being abandoned and players rushed out on sometimes questionable loans.

If we're not allowed a sarcastic comment or two pointing out a bit of fallibility, more aimed at a certain section of the fans than the man himself, then heaven help us.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I could be misremembering but I thought one of the venerable itk's had suggested so. It is also an observation of my own. Onomah is too reactive off the ball and two ponderous on it. Onomah's qualities make him look imperious at times but he doesn't apply himself consistently enough to be played in his favoured position, hence being played in AM or wide. Onomah's time at Villa has been similar. When played in CM the game passes him by so he ends up getting shoved further forward in the hope that he can focus on his strengths but of course with less space and time he can't make his surging runs. There are crucial missing pieces to Onomah's game that are holding him back.


As @WindyCOYS said, I watched one of the first games he played at Villa in CM and he was very good, I seem to remember the Villa forums cooing over him after that game. Next game Villa lost and Bruce immediately hit the Graham Taylor button and their midfield hasn't been seen since.

I accept that Onomah's got learning to do, and there are days when he could be a bit mentally livelier, but I just don't think he's ever going to be that type of busy **** player, if you want to play to his strengths, you do what you do with other players and find the best combination of player to get the best out of him. You put him in a CM2 with Wanyama say, or a CM3 and you mitigate his deficiencies and maximise his strengths.

Those qualities you speak of that make Onomah look imperious, are exactly the type of qualities Poch should be valuing, he even talks about the problems we have at times playing out from the press in his book, and then continually plays Dier (or Sissoko even) who is the worst possible option for doing that as when we are being pressed high up he hides from the defenders because he's uncomfortable receiving the ball under pressure, can't drop a shoulder and leave a marker, can't pass well under pressure, then compare that with Onomah who has demonstrated those qualities ? I accept Dier is better defensively than Onomah, but if you pair Onomah with the right player(s) you then have a player who can do exactly what you need for your philosophy - play out and transition with more incision. eg - Onomah's performance in the WC final.

I don't really understand the rush to judgement on Onomah, when he's not had a single game for us - with our best team - in the kind of role he'd be more comfortable in. And he had two games (one great, one less so) at Villa. Then you have the rest of the body of his work throughout his development years where all his best work was as a 6/8 in which he excelled (inc in tat WC). Knowing how precarious those early steps can be - just look at Kane right up until the Sherwood spell.
 

thefierycamel

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
2,015
5,128
I see josh as a similar player to pogba. Not great defensively but very good going forward and ticking the play over. If you paired him with victor or eric or even put him as the most advanced player in a midfield 3 with one of those two and winks then I think he could be spectacular. Playing him on the wing or as a second striker just isn't going to help anyone
 
Last edited:

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
I could be misremembering but I thought one of the venerable itk's had suggested so. It is also an observation of my own. Onomah is too reactive off the ball and two ponderous on it. Onomah's qualities make him look imperious at times but he doesn't apply himself consistently enough to be played in his favoured position, hence being played in AM or wide. Onomah's time at Villa has been similar. When played in CM the game passes him by so he ends up getting shoved further forward in the hope that he can focus on his strengths but of course with less space and time he can't make his surging runs. There are crucial missing pieces to Onomah's game that are holding him back.

Im assuming someone must of grabbed hold of him and told him this then numerous times?

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past coaches not to. You only need to listen to what Danny Rose said about never actually being taught how to play left back until he was managed by Poch.

If the coaches have then you've got to ask why he's not doing it. Thats what I don't get about him.
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2014
2,744
7,424
5625A883-B7B0-41DE-99E5-FBC89F801111.jpeg
 
Top