Match Ratings Ratings vs Arsenal

Bus-Conductor said:

It’s highly unlikely we’d be able and we shouldn’t still be pressing from the front with our fb’s etc as we would earlier phases in the game. Dropping deeper and being pragmatic is fine, and Alli and Eriksen has both dropped into midfield to do this, but, if we were going to continue to play a high line, we still needed to press the ball in those deeper areas, not allow Arsenal’s creative players time and space to pick passes, that’s the mistake they made for our goal, and the mistake that allowed Iwobi to play a pass from the halfway line all the way through to our box.

And it’s not just about the press, it’s about being prepared to offer up and get on the ball, because for me, that’s a much braver but more intelligent way of protecting it.

And it’s not just about seeing out a game, we saw the same deficiencies in the first half at Liverpool last week, with the pair of them unable to cope/play when the pressure was on us, especially Dier.

Dier was largely decent, Dembele had a very good spell in that game, but I’m not buying into the whole “they were magnificent” throughout thing either, is all.

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Overall, over three tough league games, how would you rate how they did. Barring that mistake against Liverpool, surely you would concede they've done extremely well?

That's 270 minutes against the better teams in the league and if you total up the dominance combined, 200 minutes plus at least I'd say, that's extremely impressive, and it certainly wasn't achieved in spite of these two, they were at the core of it.

nferno said:

It will be even sadder because he doesn't even like football so no chance of seeing him as a pundit, club ambassador etc!

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Did not know this! On another note, I now realised that this is the same team that also tamed Manu and Liverpool in recent weeks and yet it isn't our strongest 11! Our squad has definitely strengthened!

Mr Pink said:

Overall, over three tough league games, how would you rate how they did. Barring that mistake against Liverpool, surely you would concede they've done extremely well?

That's 270 minutes against the better teams in the league and if you total up the dominance combined, 200 minutes plus at least I'd say, that's extremely impressive, and it certainly wasn't achieved in spite of these two, they were at the core of it.

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They were fucking insipid for 45 minutes against Liverpool and piss poor against Southampton the week before ManU. So if they were the core of our win against Arsenal, it's fair to say they were the core of the why we didn't win against Liverpool and Southampton. Dembele was also in CM when we got mullered by ManC and outplayed by Arsenal away and lost to Leicester away etc.

Dier's had some awful games in midfield throughout the season.

If you really want to play Dier and Dembele bingo we can go on and on, and through last season too, when many of our best performances came without Dembele and/or Dier in midfield. As have some of this season's (Liverpool had Alli, Winks and Eriksen FFS).

This is cyclical, Dembele has just managed a decent game, half a decent game and 2/3rds of a decent game on the spin for the first time in 7 months, and suddenly he's the best CM in Europe again. The next Southampton or Liverpool first half or Arsenal away, or Leicester away etc this thread will go quiet for a while.

You guys spend a lot of time pissing yourselves at Liverpool fans for exactly this type of myopic adulation. Dembele can be a very good player when he's fit, when he has a good team round him that are all doing there jobs and the opposition aren't pressing well. But we've waited 7 months for him to to have a decent couple of weeks. And it was much the same last season when he was absent for a chunk and we still had the best season we've had for about 60 years.

Dembele can be a fucking useful player, but he's not the No.8 wonder bread we desperately need when we are often trying to break teams down. In terms of what he's producing in key (or incisive play) it's barely ever changed, barely ever been good. As a kind of robust, footballing 6, when he's actually fully fit (when) he can do a very decent job, be very good at that kind of hybrid role, but when you have a player like Wanyama who's an exceptionally good 6, you really need an 8 who can actually inject some tempo, supply the creative spark, move the ball quicker and with a bit more vision ideally.

And Dier I can't even be bothered to argue about. He can do a job on a good day, but I think we should aspire for more than that, and there are no circumstances in which he should be ahead of Wanyama as a CM in this team when both are fit.

Bulletspur said:

Did not know this! On another note, I now realised that this is the same team that also tamed Manu and Liverpool in recent weeks and yet it isn't our strongest 11! Our squad has definitely strengthened!

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I may have misconstrued what we actually meant but I do remember an interview where he says he finds watching football boring (or something else similar to that effect).

Colston said:

Dembele for me.

It's ridiculous that we now have a bench of Vorm, Aurier, Rose, Alderweireld, Lucas Moura, Lamela, Winks and Wanyama and our playing XI isn't weakened.

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We have a shit squad though ... (apparently).

seanwhite1961 said:

I think I could be as right on Lamela as I was with Gomes.

My verdict on Gomes, to the consternation of many on here, was that he was too erratic, had poor judgement on interceptions and that flashy saves were no compensation for that.

With Lamela, I think it's shown England doesn't suit him. We've seen very few of the qualities that were at Roma. The biggest sign is the amount of yellows he picks up, something I see as over-compensation for not being a goal scorer. I'd be surprised if he doesn't start season 2019 in Italy.

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You were right about Gomes (and you weren't the only one saying it), but I suspect you may be wrong about Lamela ... Just sayin',,

seanwhite1961 said:

Marked down because of trying to thread the ball through a centre, where there are 6 defenders, to find a player who will then touch it on to create a chance. It's a one in a hundred tactic. It then leads to an Arsenal break and unnecessary pressure.

With Trips and Davies in such space and great form, those are the obvious avenues to create chances.

Does anyone remember Jan Molby at Liverpool? Quite similar to Dembele, not as dominant on the ball, but with better ideas on when and where to release it.

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Jan Molby is an interesting point of comparison. He undoubtedly knew when, where, and how, to release the ball. He always seemed to have a ridiculous amount of time on the ball though (partly because of his vision, obviously; partly perhaps because of Liverpool's general dominance at the time) - no way would he stand out to the degree Dembele does in the modern game. Dembele is a clear class above Jan on this form.

nferno said:

I may have misconstrued what we actually meant but I do remember an interview where he says he finds watching football boring (or something else similar to that effect).

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So probably shares the same sentiments as BAE who just accepts playing football as just a job

Bus-Conductor said:

They were fucking insipid for 45 minutes against Liverpool and piss poor against Southampton the week before ManU. So if they were the core of our win against Arsenal, it's fair to say they were the core of the why we didn't win against Liverpool and Southampton. Dembele was also in CM when we got mullered by ManC and outplayed by Arsenal away and lost to Leicester away etc.

Dier's had some awful games in midfield throughout the season.

If you really want to play Dier and Dembele bingo we can go on and on, and through last season too, when many of our best performances came without Dembele and/or Dier in midfield. As have some of this season's (Liverpool had Alli, Winks and Eriksen FFS).

This is cyclical, Dembele has just managed a decent game, half a decent game and 2/3rds of a decent game on the spin for the first time in 7 months, and suddenly he's the best CM in Europe again. The next Southampton or Liverpool first half or Arsenal away, or Leicester away etc this thread will go quiet for a while.

You guys spend a lot of time pissing yourselves at Liverpool fans for exactly this type of myopic adulation. Dembele can be a very good player when he's fit, when he has a good team round him that are all doing there jobs and the opposition aren't pressing well. But we've waited 7 months for him to to have a decent couple of weeks. And it was much the same last season when he was absent for a chunk and we still had the best season we've had for about 60 years.

Dembele can be a fucking useful player, but he's not the No.8 wonder bread we desperately need when we are often trying to break teams down. In terms of what he's producing in key (or incisive play) it's barely ever changed, barely ever been good. As a kind of robust, footballing 6, when he's actually fully fit (when) he can do a very decent job, be very good at that kind of hybrid role, but when you have a player like Wanyama who's an exceptionally good 6, you really need an 8 who can actually inject some tempo, supply the creative spark, move the ball quicker and with a bit more vision ideally.

And Dier I can't even be bothered to argue about. He can do a job on a good day, but I think we should aspire for more than that, and there are no circumstances in which he should be ahead of Wanyama as a CM in this team when both are fit.

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My view is that Dembele looks a different player when our front players press high like the last 2 home matches than when we don’t like against Arsenal away. He is then able to push up a little higher in the pitch and his physical attributes are correspondingly utilized in more offensive positions. In the matches you mention where we lost you could also add that Kane was playing . So was Vertonghen. . Why would Dembele be more to blame than others for those losses ?

It is clear that Dembele remains a player who has to be managed well and not over utilized. But when he gets on the field in good physical shape he is a huge asset. I imagine he is not over trained and I see certain similarities to how we needed Ledley King in our team even if he couldn’t train . Different positions but similar impact on the team. Dembele is surrounded by younger players in our team and it is pretty clear he provides strength and experience to the group . He dominated the Arsenal midfield and bullied them. He was most people's man of the match, though I know that you , BC, would never give him that accolade.

2 seasons ago him and Dier did a great job as the 2 in the 4-2-3-1. With Wanyama coming in last season , things changed . Wanyama is clearly an upgrade on Dier and I agree that he should always be preferred over him.

But BC , give credit where credit is due and maybe admit that Dembele was outstanding yesterday as he was against United and for a good part of the Liverpool match.

Bus-Conductor said:

They were fucking insipid for 45 minutes against Liverpool and piss poor against Southampton the week before ManU. So if they were the core of our win against Arsenal, it's fair to say they were the core of the why we didn't win against Liverpool and Southampton. Dembele was also in CM when we got mullered by ManC and outplayed by Arsenal away and lost to Leicester away etc.

Dier's had some awful games in midfield throughout the season.

If you really want to play Dier and Dembele bingo we can go on and on, and through last season too, when many of our best performances came without Dembele and/or Dier in midfield. As have some of this season's (Liverpool had Alli, Winks and Eriksen FFS).

This is cyclical, Dembele has just managed a decent game, half a decent game and 2/3rds of a decent game on the spin for the first time in 7 months, and suddenly he's the best CM in Europe again. The next Southampton or Liverpool first half or Arsenal away, or Leicester away etc this thread will go quiet for a while.

You guys spend a lot of time pissing yourselves at Liverpool fans for exactly this type of myopic adulation. Dembele can be a very good player when he's fit, when he has a good team round him that are all doing there jobs and the opposition aren't pressing well. But we've waited 7 months for him to to have a decent couple of weeks. And it was much the same last season when he was absent for a chunk and we still had the best season we've had for about 60 years.

Dembele can be a fucking useful player, but he's not the No.8 wonder bread we desperately need when we are often trying to break teams down. In terms of what he's producing in key (or incisive play) it's barely ever changed, barely ever been good. As a kind of robust, footballing 6, when he's actually fully fit (when) he can do a very decent job, be very good at that kind of hybrid role, but when you have a player like Wanyama who's an exceptionally good 6, you really need an 8 who can actually inject some tempo, supply the creative spark, move the ball quicker and with a bit more vision ideally.

And Dier I can't even be bothered to argue about. He can do a job on a good day, but I think we should aspire for more than that, and there are no circumstances in which he should be ahead of Wanyama as a CM in this team when both are fit.

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BC, I think it's pretty clear Dembele has rediscovered form again after looking off his best for a while, probably to do with long standing injury problems.

Didn’t mention the Southampton game, I mentioned the last three big games where it's clear his level has jumped up.

Dembele has the best passing accuracy in the PL this season, 92.6 percent, the best of any midfielder.

He had the highest pass completion in the game against Arsenal as well, and the most forward passes to boot, 46, Dier second with 38.

Different subject...I missed this heartstopper (below) thank gawd . Its Hugo when facing an onrushing forward that is my issue . We had it vs City when he was too late down and the ball went under him . Vs 'Pool he went down infront of onrushing Salah who put the ball over him .

Here he comes out not covering that wide space to his right which cassette bafflingly can't place the ball into . Hugo does this because he's preparing to dive to his right . This he'll do but , once again he's timed it wrong and the shot goes under him ,but mercifully wide .

Good keeper but with onrushing forwards he's not doing it for me . Maybe he should stay on his feet more , I dunno , but this part of his game is a worry

Gilzeanking said:

Different subject...I missed this heartstopper (below) thank gawd . Its Hugo when facing an onrushing forward that is my issue . We had it vs City when he was too late down and the ball went under him . Vs 'Pool he went down infront of onrushing Salah who put the ball over him .

Here he comes out not covering that wide space to his right which cassette bafflingly can't place the ball into . Hugo does this because he's preparing to dive to his right . This he'll do but , once again he's timed it wrong and the shot goes under him ,but mercifully wide .

Good keeper but with onrushing forwards he's not doing it for me . Maybe he should stay on his feet more , I dunno , but this part of his game is a worry View attachment 35845

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Have to agree with this. Hugo is a magnificent shot stopper but I feel his kicking is lacking and I'm not a fan of how he often approaches one on one situations. I was particularly miffed with the Salah goal last week as I felt that he dove at the players feet when he should have stood up and star fished, Schmeichel esq.

That said, I do think the above is probably fairly standard for a keeper trying to ensure that his near post is covered, so as to force the player across the goal and he tries to close that "across goal" space with his upper body as he goes to ground. That said, if Lacazette keeps his composure then he scores that chance and would expect to score it 9 times out of 10. We got lucky that he's shot of confidence.

JonnySpurs said:

Have to agree with this. Hugo is a magnificent shot stopper but I feel his kicking is lacking and I'm not a fan of how he often approaches one on one situations. I was particularly miffed with the Salah goal last week as I felt that he dove at the players feet when he should have stood up and star fished, Schmeichel esq.

That said, I do think the above is probably fairly standard for a keeper trying to ensure that his near post is covered, so as to force the player across the goal and he tries to close that "across goal" space with his upper body as he goes to ground. That said, if Lacazette keeps his composure then he scores that chance and would expect to score it 9 times out of 10. We got lucky that he's shot of confidence.

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Snag for me is that Lacazzete is shooting at the exact moment of the pic . Hugo will never get down in time to stop the shot , his timing for the dive is way off. I'm no keeper , a forward but I don't see why Hugo doesn't behave like a defender here stay on his feet and move in to tackle, or get down in time to stop the shot .

At the moment the pic is taken the shot can go into the big space to Hugo's right or through his legs , There is very little coverage of the goal at the moment the shot is made . This simply cannot be the most effective approach to an onrushing forward ....and we're seeing this from Hugo several times recently .

I agree with the concern about Hugo's one on one play, I think he showed too much of the goal to Lacazette and should have closed down the angle for Salah's first. Criticising him for Salah's 2nd is absolute nonsense and his kicking has generally improved recently.

Shadydan said:

I agree with the concern about Hugo's one on one play, I think he showed too much of the goal to Lacazette and should have closed down the angle for Salah's first. Criticising him for Salah's 2nd is absolute nonsense and his kicking has generally improved recently.

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Yes , true , he was down early enough for the Salah's clever goal...but when a forward is that close why not stay on his feet ?

Gilzeanking said:

Yes , true , he was down early enough for the Salah's clever goal...but when a forward is that close why not stay on his feet ?

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Because the most difficult finish for a forward in those situations is a dink/chip over the keeper.

seanwhite1961 said:

Don't talk shit.

How was Eriksen anything like a slinky winger? Lamela hasn't even lived up to Chadli.

Lamela's reputation was as a wide player, cutting in, very skilful, scoring 15 league goals for Roma. That's near to what we paid £25m for.

Not a bloke with about 10 times more yellows than goals.

The more he is acerbically defended, as was Gomes, more obvious he will be back in Italy next year.

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When you're only getting positive rep from somebody like @zoneD - it might just be time to stop posting/delete your account

Spurrific said:

When you're only getting positive rep from somebody like @zoneD - it might just be time to stop posting/delete your account

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He's basically Tim Francis with a filter...

Gilzeanking said:

Different subject...I missed this heartstopper (below) thank gawd . Its Hugo when facing an onrushing forward that is my issue . We had it vs City when he was too late down and the ball went under him . Vs 'Pool he went down infront of onrushing Salah who put the ball over him .

Here he comes out not covering that wide space to his right which cassette bafflingly can't place the ball into . Hugo does this because he's preparing to dive to his right . This he'll do but , once again he's timed it wrong and the shot goes under him ,but mercifully wide .

Good keeper but with onrushing forwards he's not doing it for me . Maybe he should stay on his feet more , I dunno , but this part of his game is a worry View attachment 35845

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That pass was played from over the half way line and has travelled to just outside the 6 yard box, he should've come out for it anyway and would have picked it up easily. but you're right his angle coming out and timing of dive is not great, maybe too worried about being beaten near post?

dannythomas said:

My view is that Dembele looks a different player when our front players press high like the last 2 home matches than when we don’t like against Arsenal away. He is then able to push up a little higher in the pitch and his physical attributes are correspondingly utilized in more offensive positions. In the matches you mention where we lost you could also add that Kane was playing . So was Vertonghen. . Why would Dembele be more to blame than others for those losses ?

It is clear that Dembele remains a player who has to be managed well and not over utilized. But when he gets on the field in good physical shape he is a huge asset. I imagine he is not over trained and I see certain similarities to how we needed Ledley King in our team even if he couldn’t train . Different positions but similar impact on the team. Dembele is surrounded by younger players in our team and it is pretty clear he provides strength and experience to the group . He dominated the Arsenal midfield and bullied them. He was most people's man of the match, though I know that you , BC, would never give him that accolade.

2 seasons ago him and Dier did a great job as the 2 in the 4-2-3-1. With Wanyama coming in last season , things changed . Wanyama is clearly an upgrade on Dier and I agree that he should always be preferred over him.

But BC , give credit where credit is due and maybe admit that Dembele was outstanding yesterday as he was against United and for a good part of the Liverpool match.

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For the record, Ive given Dembele MOTM several times over the last 3/4 years. I think he was decent for the first 45 minutes, very good for the next 30 and poor for the last 15. I can't really agree with the general consensus that he was out of this world. I'm sorry, I just don't. I think he's one of those players that engenders this over the top reaction to any good performance because he can dribble, and people love a bit of dribble. But with a very stolid DM like Dier net to him, I'd be more impressed if at the end of one of those dribbles he played a truly incisive pass, played a through ball, played a FB in behind a defender etc etc (or even played the kind of pass that Wiltshire played for PEA first half - yes I now Wiltshire's a tosser who's not fit to lace Dembele's boots etc).

Mr Pink said:

BC, I think it's pretty clear Dembele has rediscovered form again after looking off his best for a while, probably to do with long standing injury problems.

Didn’t mention the Southampton game, I mentioned the last three big games where it's clear his level has jumped up.

Dembele has the best passing accuracy in the PL this season, 92.6 percent, the best of any midfielder.

He had the highest pass completion in the game against Arsenal as well, and the most forward passes to boot, 46, Dier second with 38.

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I know you didn't mention the Southampton game, that's my point, why not ? It's become detached from this little sequence because it doesn't quite fit the narrative of Dembele being "back to his best".

I think the team got an almighty kick up the arse after the Southampton game, helped very much by having ManU at home, a game in which ManU were as bad as I've seen them, tactically and in application, and even then it was our front four that set the tone for that game and it was Eriksen who was the game's outstanding player.

We then play Liverpool away and Dembele and Dier are like farts in a trance for the first 45 minutes when Liverpool are actually trying. Of course, once Liverpool run out of puff and are shelling (which they even did against Southampton yesterday after the scored) Dembele looks OK again.

If Dembele was playing defence splitting passes every 10 minutes that pass completion would orgasmic, but we're lucky f we get one every ten games. He's played next to Dier, whose role is to be solid, his passing is incredibly limited, so we really need Dembele to be more pro-active with his passing in that role. I would swap 5-10% of Dembele's pass completion if he was constantly seeing and trying riskier, more incisive passes. Playing through balls, playing FB's in behind, playing quick, clever passes that break through a deep block etc. But he so rarely does. I don't mean be reckless constantly, just a little bit more.

Even Saturday there were times when Trippier was standing with his arms in the air in acres of space, but because Dembele was busy dribbling, or because it would mean by-passing (A)Dier and going straight to (C)Trippier, the pass doesn't get played - too risky.

This isn't black and white. I'm not saying I think Dembele is a bad player - far from it, I've always, always acknowledged his got some outstanding qualities and there have been many, many games when I've been thankful he's out there and many weeks I'd still pick him, because he's the best option we have for many occasions.

I've always acknowledged he can be and often is very good at that footballing 6 role - he was for a big chunk of Saturday. I just think when we are playing a Dier or Wanyama in there, especially against teams parking buses, what we really need is a tenacious 8, a Hamsik, Naingolen, Tolisso, Vidal, not another uber safe pair of hands who decorates every safe pass with a dribble for good measure.

If football was played in a 30 metre cage with no goals, Dembele would be the first name on the team sheet. But it isn't. He still viable on his good days, but I just don't think those good days are as wonderful as some, and I think there are an awful lot of not so good days - or phases of games - that are bundled into the package.