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Match Ratings Ratings vs Arsenal

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Trippier

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Verts

    Votes: 18 3.8%
  • Davies

    Votes: 20 4.2%
  • Dier

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 370 78.2%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 5 1.1%
  • Dele

    Votes: 7 1.5%
  • Son

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Kane

    Votes: 26 5.5%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 9 1.9%
  • Wanyama

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Poch

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 2 0.4%

  • Total voters
    473

theShiznit

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2004
17,799
23,813
I don't think Dier brought anything to the table in this game. The first half especially he was fucking awful (that analysis video doing the rounds on YouTube is very misguided, lets put it that way....) - has no vision and just gives it to the closest man, the ambitious passes he does try are ones he cant pull off, he has no idea where to move to and make himself available, and Arsenal knew all this so he was the only one they left free to have the ball. He didn't even press or screen the defence that well., the amount of times they found a player between the lines.

Dembele's good work for me is defensive - in that he retains the ball for you, and allows you to build a platform and get set and then others take over 40 yards from goal. When he's fit and relatively mobile he gets about and breaks up play as well. Maybe not in the biggest of games, but I don't see why you cant have him as the DM in some games, and pair him with a Winks, maybe even Eriksen, or a new signing in future, someone who is more of a ball player rather than another defensive minded player.
Agree, he is much more useful to us, in our own half, his strength in dispossessing others and turning out of trouble can buy us time when under pressure, and in our own half he can find passes between the lines, it's in the opposition half where he can clog the game up due to indecision and lack of passing ability (and vision) and his dribbles higher up the pitch don't really serve much purpose, they just condense the play, and he invariably passes it easy to someone that could've received it at the start of the dribble, only they have less space to work in now...

Works best when he keeps it simple and passes quicker to others that can effect the game higher up the pitch.

IMO That's why it works better against teams that come at us, as the game is stretched and he can start from deeper.
 

dontsalebale

Active Member
May 12, 2011
441
571
For the record, Ive given Dembele MOTM several times over the last 3/4 years. I think he was decent for the first 45 minutes, very good for the next 30 and poor for the last 15. I can't really agree with the general consensus that he was out of this world. I'm sorry, I just don't. I think he's one of those players that engenders this over the top reaction to any good performance because he can dribble, and people love a bit of dribble. But with a very stolid DM like Dier net to him, I'd be more impressed if at the end of one of those dribbles he played a truly incisive pass, played a through ball, played a FB in behind a defender etc etc (or even played the kind of pass that Wiltshire played for PEA first half - yes I now Wiltshire's a tosser who's not fit to lace Dembele's boots etc).




I know you didn't mention the Southampton game, that's my point, why not ? It's become detached from this little sequence because it doesn't quite fit the narrative of Dembele being "back to his best".

I think the team got an almighty kick up the arse after the Southampton game, helped very much by having ManU at home, a game in which ManU were as bad as I've seen them, tactically and in application, and even then it was our front four that set the tone for that game and it was Eriksen who was the game's outstanding player.

We then play Liverpool away and Dembele and Dier are like farts in a trance for the first 45 minutes when Liverpool are actually trying. Of course, once Liverpool run out of puff and are shelling (which they even did against Southampton yesterday after the scored) Dembele looks OK again.

If Dembele was playing defence splitting passes every 10 minutes that pass completion would orgasmic, but we're lucky f we get one every ten games. He's played next to Dier, whose role is to be solid, his passing is incredibly limited, so we really need Dembele to be more pro-active with his passing in that role. I would swap 5-10% of Dembele's pass completion if he was constantly seeing and trying riskier, more incisive passes. Playing through balls, playing FB's in behind, playing quick, clever passes that break through a deep block etc. But he so rarely does. I don't mean be reckless constantly, just a little bit more.

Even Saturday there were times when Trippier was standing with his arms in the air in acres of space, but because Dembele was busy dribbling, or because it would mean by-passing (A)Dier and going straight to (C)Trippier, the pass doesn't get played - too risky.

This isn't black and white. I'm not saying I think Dembele is a bad player - far from it, I've always, always acknowledged his got some outstanding qualities and there have been many, many games when I've been thankful he's out there and many weeks I'd still pick him, because he's the best option we have for many occasions.

I've always acknowledged he can be and often is very good at that footballing 6 role - he was for a big chunk of Saturday. I just think when we are playing a Dier or Wanyama in there, especially against teams parking buses, what we really need is a tenacious 8, a Hamsik, Naingolen, Tolisso, Vidal, not another uber safe pair of hands who decorates every safe pass with a dribble for good measure.

If football was played in a 30 metre cage with no goals, Dembele would be the first name on the team sheet. But it isn't. He still viable on his good days, but I just don't think those good days are as wonderful as some, and I think there are an awful lot of not so good days - or phases of games - that are bundled into the package.
Lets face it you have no idea what Dembeles function is in the team. He has 3 players ahead of him to do the job you are asking him to do. Everybody Poch, opposing teams, journalists know he is the ultimate midfield general.
Your opinion is meaningless.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
@Bus-Conductor , dribbling in the manner of Dembele against Arsenal wasn’t decorative. It was an essential ingredient to our play.

He holds the ball as few others can, avoiding all challenges for long enough that other players can find their positions so he can then play a relatively simple ball to someone like Dele or Eriksen who are more penetrative right up there in the final attacking phase. He transforms neutral and defensive periods of play into attacks more effectively than almost anyone. He doesn’t play the decisive ball very often, but he makes a decisive contribution in a different way.

I know you acknowledge his ability but I think, from reading your comments, that you’re slightly expecting him to do different job from the one he does uniquely well.


I agree, second half against Arsenal he used his skill set well. But we don't always need him holding onto the ball as long as he does, keeping his head down, to then just pass the ball simply to the nearest guy.

For the record, I criticised Winks for this last week. In an ideal world you want at least one in the CM2 to be a little more imaginative with their passing, to introduce some tempo, get the ball to the fb’s and forwards before the opposition are set, especially when playing defensively structured teams, and even more especially when the other CM is someone like Dier who's passing is really, really limited (bar the odd looper into Kane).

Even on Saturday there were still times when he could have played passes to people like Eriksen and Trippier that he instead checked and delayed.

I don't really get the furore on this issue. I'm not saying anything really abominable about Dembele, I've always acknowledged he's got some good skills, it's not like I'm averse to him playing, I'd pick him in the right set up quite often, but the problem with him is firstly consistency (for various reasons) and secondly he's not exactly quick or incisive with his passing and I think even people like Mourinho when playing 4231, like to have a bit of vim in there.

Juve for example are ultra risk averse, but Allegri still plays with Pjanic and Kediera.
 
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Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Agree, he is much more useful to us, in our own half, his strength in dispossessing others and turning out of trouble can buy us time when under pressure, and in our own half he can find passes between the lines, it's in the opposition half where he can clog the game up due to indecision and lack of passing ability (and vision) and his dribbles higher up the pitch don't really serve much purpose, they just condense the play, and he invariably passes it easy to someone that could've received it at the start of the dribble, only they have less space to work in now...

Works best when he keeps it simple and passes quicker to others that can effect the game higher up the pitch.

IMO That's why it works better against teams that come at us, as the game is stretched and he can start from deeper.


This is exactly the point that seems completely lost on some who just want to get angry because someone doesn't agree with the general "proper football pundit" assessment that Dembele is "monster".

About 80% of all our games are this type of game where we are pushed up, trying to break down a deep block, and Dier and Dembele in that scenario are just a bit too safe and unambitious. They are belt and braces when what you need is belt and suspenders. And lets be honest, neither are exactly great when we are being countered against, neither are exactly quick across the ground.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Lets face it you have no idea what Dembeles function is in the team. He has 3 players ahead of him to do the job you are asking him to do. Everybody Poch, opposing teams, journalists know he is the ultimate midfield general.
Your opinion is meaningless.

Because all CM's should ever do is carry water from a to B.....?

Well done, you've managed to out meaningless me.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Just reached the Tottenham/Arsenal section of the Guardian podcast, and even they caveated their praise of Dembele with "but he's not actually that good a passer" and made the rather good and original analogy of comparing him to a running back in American Football, great at stealing you a few yards, but doesn't really advance you much more.
 

Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
Jul 20, 2017
2,864
15,279
Just reached the Tottenham/Arsenal section of the Guardian podcast, and even they caveated their praise of Dembele with "but he's not actually that good a passer" and made the rather good and original analogy of comparing him to a running back in American Football, great at stealing you a few yards, but doesn't really advance you much more.
You got a timestamp on when this starts?
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
4,652
5,738
Dembele is a very good ball carrier - he takes it off defence and evades any press, them releases the ball safely up-field when we are in our attacking formation. It is an important role and changes games. However he has no vision and cannot shoot.

Dier is a very flexible defensive midfielder/defender. He covers 5/6 different defensive type positions.
His distribution is very good, either foot, both wide and vertical. But he is not an AM to any extent and hasn't the ability to play the ball into space for the strikers. He does see the runs though which is more than any other midfielder we've had for donkey's years.
Actually he does get them right every now and then, and his pass to Kane was every bit as good as Davies was for the goal a few minutes earlier.

They both were playing up against a 3 the whole match and unsurprisingly tired in the last 10 mins. They both looked knackered in the first half against liverpool too, a few days after the utd game.

Tonight is the game they'll both want to play in - maybe they'll find reserves of energy.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Just reached the Tottenham/Arsenal section of the Guardian podcast, and even they caveated their praise of Dembele with "but he's not actually that good a passer" and made the rather good and original analogy of comparing him to a running back in American Football, great at stealing you a few yards, but doesn't really advance you much more.

It was a 12:30 kick off, Glendenning would have been ****ed by then.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Just reached the Tottenham/Arsenal section of the Guardian podcast, and even they caveated their praise of Dembele with "but he's not actually that good a passer" and made the rather good and original analogy of comparing him to a running back in American Football, great at stealing you a few yards, but doesn't really advance you much more.

Again, what's your point?
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
Just reached the Tottenham/Arsenal section of the Guardian podcast, and even they caveated their praise of Dembele with "but he's not actually that good a passer" and made the rather good and original analogy of comparing him to a running back in American Football, great at stealing you a few yards, but doesn't really advance you much more.
Of course as anyone who watches the NFL knows, the big maxim of all the top coaches is - establishing the running game makes it so much easier when you want to pass it long. It’s the same as Dembele really - at his best, his ability to break the lines opens up space for others.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Again, what's your point?

That what everyone is wetting their knickers about me saying is also being said by people outside the Spurs bubble.

And I mentioned the Carragher thing for similar reasons. I actually singled out our defensive organisation in my ratings post, which might have seemed odd in a day like Saturday, but Carragher, instead of focusing on the perceived wonderfullness of Dembele, did the same.*



* I reserve the right to disclaim Carragher as an analytical genius if and when his opinions don’t align with mine.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
And what a wonderful 6 games of any season that is.
I agree we need to plan for the future, but I don't really understand the constant need to focus on the shortcomings of someone who's probably gonna go down as our 2nd greatest all round midfielder of the PL era after Luka.

Yes, there are things he can't do, and he'll always be playing through pain, but watching him batter his way through the likes of Matic, Pogba, Can, Henderson, Wilshere this last week has reminded me to just enjoy a remarkable footballer, who's without doubt putting his body on the line for the club.
 

Phomesy

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
9,188
14,102
Bing-fucking-go...

Things I was looking out for in BC's match report:

- The overrating of Trippier's performance (decent without being anything better)
- Play down the influence of Dier and Dembele, the least favourite CM pairing of the big man

100%. Never in doubt.

He wants them to play how he would like the to play. And rates them accordingly.

How Poch wants them to (and makes them) play is entirely irrelevant.

Which is fair enough if a little frustrating and myopic at times. But who isn't?:D
 

seanwhite1961

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2011
1,089
678
What the fuck are you talking about? Yes I do. That's literally the point of the rating system. If I see something I agree with, I hit agree. If I see something funny I hit funny.

Christ above.
I've already explained it to you, in simple terms, yet you don't understand it.

I'll try to be simpler.

The rating system is there for lazy posters, like you, but also to stop clogging threads with empty posts saying "This" or "I agree" etc.

You don't need to rate every post - it's not a competition. If you start feeling that, that's the time to post a reply. If you don't feel articulate enough to post a reply, then maybe you shouldn't be on a forum, which by its very nature is an arena where people post opinions and absorb the views of others, hopefully leading to a greater understanding and appreciation of the issues discussed, but largely dissolves into entrenched positions and abuse.

There's no easy way to say this, but you seem like a right fucking thick c***. I'll extend that to the posters giving you positive ratings.

As me old mom used to say, you're enough to make a saint swear.

18 months ago it was nonsense to say that Trippier and Davies should be our first choice FBs. On Saturday, it felt like complete sense.
 

diamond lights

active member
Aug 31, 2012
1,442
5,657
I've already explained it to you, in simple terms, yet you don't understand it.

I'll try to be simpler.

The rating system is there for lazy posters, like you, but also to stop clogging threads with empty posts saying "This" or "I agree" etc.

You don't need to rate every post - it's not a competition. If you start feeling that, that's the time to post a reply. If you don't feel articulate enough to post a reply, then maybe you shouldn't be on a forum, which by its very nature is an arena where people post opinions and absorb the views of others, hopefully leading to a greater understanding and appreciation of the issues discussed, but largely dissolves into entrenched positions and abuse.

There's no easy way to say this, but you seem like a right fucking thick c***. I'll extend that to the posters giving you positive ratings.

As me old mom used to say, you're enough to make a saint swear.

18 months ago it was nonsense to say that Trippier and Davies should be our first choice FBs. On Saturday, it felt like complete sense.
You really are an aggressive individual.
You made your point and people disagreed with you so you start flinging personal insults.
Grow up.

Assists are one of many different factors that can be used to assess a player's contribution. They are not the be all and end all but they are a useful statistic in assessing over time a player's usefulness to the performance of the team.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,586
5,861
Dembele is a very good ball carrier - he takes it off defence and evades any press, them releases the ball safely up-field when we are in our attacking formation. It is an important role and changes games. However he has no vision and cannot shoot.

Dier is a very flexible defensive midfielder/defender. He covers 5/6 different defensive type positions.
His distribution is very good, either foot, both wide and vertical. But he is not an AM to any extent and hasn't the ability to play the ball into space for the strikers. He does see the runs though which is more than any other midfielder we've had for donkey's years.
Actually he does get them right every now and then, and his pass to Kane was every bit as good as Davies was for the goal a few minutes earlier.

They both were playing up against a 3 the whole match and unsurprisingly tired in the last 10 mins. They both looked knackered in the first half against liverpool too, a few days after the utd game.

Tonight is the game they'll both want to play in - maybe they'll find reserves of energy.

Every team needs a Makalele. Ours is Dier. When in the dominant team, even Makalele's use became obsolete.
 
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