Summer transfer wish list - 2018

the watson · Feb 16, 2018

Bus-Conductor said:
That's an interesting read, thanks, but if anyone who's actually watched this guy play could give me an actual description of him I'd be really grateful.

from Ajax fans from his thread on Reddit:

It’s lovely to see but I can’t see this working too well against the bigger fish we usually meet in Europe. Maybe once Frenkie has had a chance to adept to it better when the new season comes around but in his current form, he’s too big of a defensive liability for that

(when asked if he gets paired up with De Ligt)

Every game basically. He doesnt belong there tho imo. He's much better as a 6.

Hopefully he plays in the midfield next season.

I personally don’t like him in this position, makes to many defensive mistakes (wich is understandable) much rather have him on the midfield in the “6” position.

He used to be an 8, but then started playing on 6 a lot in Jong Ajax, with Nouri and vd Beek ahead of him. He always did well there, so the most likely scenario seems that he'll take Schöne's spot.

(Schöne's the current 6)

(interesting/relevant comparisons to Toby and Jan)

At Ajax if you fail as a midfielder in the youth you practically get a second chance as a defender, same for wingers to backs. It's nice because the youth players that do succeed in this are great ball-playing defenders, but it is also the reason why Ajax defenders are always a tad nonchalant and make a lot of marking errors.

Heitinga, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Vermaelen, were all midfielders at some point in their youth careers.

It's his debut season and this is a video of one of the first games he played as a center back. He was very good this game. But he had a lot of games in which he wasn't this good.

I love the forward runs and his body feints to make space for himself, but I would love to see him getting playing time on the midfield instead of Schöne. He is a liability at the back and I think Wöber is an excellent defender for Ajax who should be playing when he isn't injured.

Let's just give this kid the time he needs to get to a good level and be consistent before letting him go to a bigger team. Please

the problem he has as a 6 is his shortcomings in transition from possession to defending. But from a footballing perspective he definitely needs to be at 6 to control the game with the play/ball ahead of him

I agree completely. Frenkie de Jong is far less physical and simply not a defender.

Usually he gets away with this, (bringing the ball out from CB) I can only remember him getting dispossessed once or twice and he does it a lot during the game. But it does hide a big downside, he's not a natural defender. On the defense he makes a lot of positional mistakes and he does tend to lose key duels in high pace situations

he's not actually a ball playing centre back though, it's just where he's being played. His natural position is as a technical midfielder with good awareness and ball retention

Probably better off looking at his matches for Holland u21 to see him play in a more natural role

It is obviously a risk. Matthijs de Ligt, Frenkie's partner, said he's always clenching his butt when Frenkie has the ball.

Sounds like he is miles away from Prem-standard football but developing well in a new position. Worth noting that not a single Ajax fan gave a particularly glowing review throughout the whole thread, although they could simply be playing down their young talent.

bceej · Feb 16, 2018

Spurrific said:
In the Dutch league. Dier has done it in the Premier League, Champions League and is a full England international. It's fashionable to bash Dier, for some reason, but he is a fucking good player. It's actually embarrassing how underrated he is by some of the posters on here. I can only assume you've never watched Dier play 90 mins.

I have seen De Jong play a few times actually and I do rate him, but slagging Dier off for no reason is prick-ish.

In the Juve game I was wondering who to sub and thought Dier, then quickly realised he is SO integral to how we play. He is incredibly disciplined so is hard to notice. De Jong isn’t a comparable player, reportedly is difficult to discipline in a set game plan.

Cravenspurs · Feb 16, 2018

Spurrific said:
In the Dutch league. Dier has done it in the Premier League, Champions League and is a full England international. It's fashionable to bash Dier, for some reason, but he is a fucking good player. It's actually embarrassing how underrated he is by some of the posters on here. I can only assume you've never watched Dier play 90 mins.

I have seen De Jong play a few times actually and I do rate him, but slagging Dier off for no reason is prick-ish.

I bash Dier because he has physical limitations that hinder his ability to play against pressing teams. The Alonso shouts when he was playing with England was when he basically sat their and could ping balls around for fun. City and Pool for some reason are the only teams that know how to disrupt his style of play and that is where I think the poster is going with this argument. Yes, Dier has been a great performer in matches for club and country. Yes, he is versatile which gives the coach security in knowing that he has a CB, DM, and a RB when in a pinch. But to be objective and watch Dier at 18 and De Jong at 18 you wouldn't even compare the two if you are looking at the CM positions.

De Jong is playing as a CB now because Ajax dominate possession in the Dutch league and they like his ability to defeat the first wave of pressure. With him and de Ligt back there they have two CB's that are comfortable at creating and also have the speed and chops to put in the tackle. He is learning a new position on the fly though so he makes mistakes. But for a Mid to shuffle back he isn't playing horribly.

But De Jong's future is in the midfield, whether that is in the mold of Basquets or Iniesta. He has such a smooth technique to him and has that "two touches ahead" style of thought. Pressure him and he is around you. Give him space and he will find the pass or drive into it with the technique we wish Dier had.

I will stop my essay now, but I do think my point is: Dier is a better CB for the PL than De Jong because of his physicality. But if we are talking a DM/CM role, there is no question who is the better player. You just can't compare their tool set.

Bus-Conductor · Feb 16, 2018

mpickard2087 said:
Better idea would be to buy up those who run the Ajax production line.

The Real Housewives of Amsterdam?

Cravenspurs · Feb 16, 2018

Bus-Conductor said:
That's an interesting read, thanks, but if anyone who's actually watched this guy play could give me an actual description of him I'd be really grateful.

I am going to get shot for the comparisons, but I would liken his skill sets to a mixture of Basquets (the ability to see two steps ahead), Iniesta (the driving runs that put pressure on the defense. Not the close beautiful control of Iniesta, but the direct runs.) and a bit of Eriksen when Eriksen drops deep and sprays the ball around. He isn't any of the above, but he has some the skills that these greats display. This is a kid I want desperately as I think he is going to be a class act and he is very versatile. I would just say watch a couple games if you can and watch his skill set versus where is playing on the pitch.

the yid · Feb 16, 2018

the watson said:
from Ajax fans from his thread on Reddit:

Seems like they have a similar opinion to what I have of Dier just in opposite positions!

Sounds like he is miles away from Prem-standard football but developing well in a new position. Worth noting that not a single Ajax fan gave a particularly glowing review throughout the whole thread, although they could simply be playing down their young talent.

Bus-Conductor · Feb 16, 2018

the watson said:
from Ajax fans from his thread on Reddit:

Sounds like he is miles away from Prem-standard football but developing well in a new position. Worth noting that not a single Ajax fan gave a particularly glowing review throughout the whole thread, although they could simply be playing down their young talent.

What I picked up from that was that they all would prefer him to play in midfield not CB.

That did actually tell me something, because our system requires the type of positional flexibility that Dejong seems capable of (intellectually). His technique is not in question. And they say he does have learning to do with regards to attack to defence transition (which is an area Winks needs to work on too) but he seems a very talented kid who would be well worth a punt and we do have a good relationship with Ajax. Be great if we could loan them Onomah and KWP to see if they could flourish and develop.

Blake Griffin · Feb 16, 2018

Bus-Conductor said:
What I picked up from that was that they all would prefer him to play in midfield not CB.

That did actually tell me something, because our system requires the type of positional flexibility that Dejong seems capable of (intellectually). His technique is not in question. And they say he does have learning to do with regards to attack to defence transition (which is an area Winks needs to work on too) but he seems a very talented kid who would be well worth a punt and we do have a good relationship with Ajax. Be great if we could loan them Onomah and KWP to see if they could flourish and develop.

ajax aren't going to develop our players for us, not when they can develop their own and make a bomb.

Spurrific · Feb 16, 2018

Cravenspurs said:
I bash Dier because he has physical limitations that hinder his ability to play against pressing teams. The Alonso shouts when he was playing with England was when he basically sat their and could ping balls around for fun. City and Pool for some reason are the only teams that know how to disrupt his style of play and that is where I think the poster is going with this argument. Yes, Dier has been a great performer in matches for club and country. Yes, he is versatile which gives the coach security in knowing that he has a CB, DM, and a RB when in a pinch. But to be objective and watch Dier at 18 and De Jong at 18 you wouldn't even compare the two if you are looking at the CM positions.

De Jong is playing as a CB now because Ajax dominate possession in the Dutch league and they like his ability to defeat the first wave of pressure. With him and de Ligt back there they have two CB's that are comfortable at creating and also have the speed and chops to put in the tackle. He is learning a new position on the fly though so he makes mistakes. But for a Mid to shuffle back he isn't playing horribly.

But De Jong's future is in the midfield, whether that is in the mold of Basquets or Iniesta. He has such a smooth technique to him and has that "two touches ahead" style of thought. Pressure him and he is around you. Give him space and he will find the pass or drive into it with the technique we wish Dier had.

I will stop my essay now, but I do think my point is: Dier is a better CB for the PL than De Jong because of his physicality. But if we are talking a DM/CM role, there is no question who is the better player. You just can't compare their tool set.

Yet @coys200 did - which is why I responded to his post.

Univarn · Feb 16, 2018

Bus-Conductor said:
What I picked up from that was that they all would prefer him to play in midfield not CB.

That did actually tell me something, because our system requires the type of positional flexibility that Dejong seems capable of (intellectually). His technique is not in question. And they say he does have learning to do with regards to attack to defence transition (which is an area Winks needs to work on too) but he seems a very talented kid who would be well worth a punt and we do have a good relationship with Ajax. Be great if we could loan them Onomah and KWP to see if they could flourish and develop.

Blake Griffin said:
ajax aren't going to develop our players for us, not when they can develop their own and make a bomb.

I know this would never happen, especially not with Levy, but I wish there was some kind of structure we could put in place where Ajax, or another lower league club, would take a player on loan and develop them in exchange for a percentage sell on if sold by the club within a certain number of years or a set amount if we don't sell the player of they meet certain conditions. It's all well and good sending players to teams to develop in exchange for a few hundred thousand pounds but if they have no incentive to develop them and they're just squad filler. Then again players like Pritchard do break through so it may just be dumb luck no matter what we do.

LexingtonSpurs · Feb 16, 2018

Spurrific said:
In the Dutch league. Dier has done it in the Premier League, Champions League and is a full England international. It's fashionable to bash Dier, for some reason, but he is a fucking good player. It's actually embarrassing how underrated he is by some of the posters on here. I can only assume you've never watched Dier play 90 mins.

I have seen De Jong play a few times actually and I do rate him, but slagging Dier off for no reason is prick-ish.

I have only seen a few clips of De Jong, but I am not seeing the comparison at all.

I think a lot of people don't really understand Dier's role. He is a DM. He shields the back line. He slows down the opponents attack to allow the team to get back into position. He is not an aggressive ball-winner - like Wanyama. He is not a water-carrier - like Dembele. He is not a deep lying playmaker - like a Winks or Busquets.

He is responsible for providing a passing outlet in the MF, but he is not responsible for being the primary link between the defense and attack. It is not his role to be the player to make the incisive pass in the attacking third. He is not the player to be dribbling out from the back.

Dier is better than Wanyama at reading the game, and shielding the back line. (Wanyama is better than Dier at closing down the ball and winning the ball back - but don't confuse the two roles, they are not the same.)

I think Dier has room for improvement as a DM - he has had a number of shaky passes in the last few matches. But, overall, he plays his role very well. And, like it or not, he is one of Poch's most trusted players.

Cravenspurs · Feb 16, 2018

LexingtonSpurs said:
I have only seen a few clips of De Jong, but I am not seeing the comparison at all.

I think a lot of people don't really understand Dier's role. He is a DM. He shields the back line. He slows down the opponents attack to allow the team to get back into position. He is not an aggressive ball-winner - like Wanyama. He is not a water-carrier - like Dembele. He is not a deep lying playmaker - like a Winks or Busquets.

He is responsible for providing a passing outlet in the MF, but he is not responsible for being the primary link between the defense and attack. It is not his role to be the player to make the incisive pass in the attacking third. He is not the player to be dribbling out from the back.

Dier is better than Wanyama at reading the game, and shielding the back line. (Wanyama is better than Dier at closing down the ball and winning the ball back - but don't confuse the two roles, they are not the same.)

I think Dier has room for improvement as a DM - he has had a number of shaky passes in the last few matches. But, overall, he plays his role very well. And, like it or not, he is one of Poch's most trusted players.

I understand that argument, but I think we have a player in Wanyama that does exactly what Dier does, but has added qualities. Dier is asked to be a DM, but why settle for one that cannot move with the ball at his feet and is basically a stationary shield?

Watch the Pool and City games again and you will understand why he is not a midfielder IMO. He is slow on the ball, he lacks the ability to shake a press and being an outlet isn't enough if you can't turn and make something out of it. I really hope that we see a Wanyama/Dembele pairing against City.

Ossie85 · Feb 16, 2018

the watson said:
from Ajax fans from his thread on Reddit:

Sounds like he is miles away from Prem-standard football but developing well in a new position. Worth noting that not a single Ajax fan gave a particularly glowing review throughout the whole thread, although they could simply be playing down their young talent.

Because they are talking about him as a CB, which he's not.

Bus-Conductor · Feb 16, 2018

Blake Griffin said:
ajax aren't going to develop our players for us, not when they can develop their own and make a bomb.

A couple of thoughts on that. They do take loan players. Traore from Chelsea, Sanogo from Arsenal, Milik from Leverkusen, Krkic from Barca in the last few windows. (Traore and Sanogo I knew about already, I confess to looking up their others on transfer market).

I think a club like ours needs to get creative in this field of development, and incentivise loan clubs on the continent, either by making the loans entirely paid for by us (all expenses including accusation and living), for the return of getting a player back who is now better developed and experienced, or even by adding financial incentives to the scenario - where the most talented players are concerned - so that the loan/developing club get income from any sale we subsequently make. (Which sounds preposterous maybe, but if you think about it, they are the ones potentially playing a major part in that players career, because without exposure to proper football, that player would be unlikely to see daylight with us and invariably get sold for loads less). You could make the loans 2 or even 3 years with break clauses in them so the loan club has some possible continuity.

Ajax would obviously be the dream developing ticket, with their pedigree for production development, but it could be applied in Belgium, Holland or France where poor economics and good coaching are highly conducive to player development and integration.

Bus-Conductor · Feb 16, 2018

LexingtonSpurs said:
I have only seen a few clips of De Jong, but I am not seeing the comparison at all.

I think a lot of people don't really understand Dier's role. He is a DM. He shields the back line. He slows down the opponents attack to allow the team to get back into position. He is not an aggressive ball-winner - like Wanyama. He is not a water-carrier - like Dembele. He is not a deep lying playmaker - like a Winks or Busquets.

He is responsible for providing a passing outlet in the MF, but he is not responsible for being the primary link between the defense and attack. It is not his role to be the player to make the incisive pass in the attacking third. He is not the player to be dribbling out from the back.

Dier is better than Wanyama at reading the game, and shielding the back line. (Wanyama is better than Dier at closing down the ball and winning the ball back - but don't confuse the two roles, they are not the same.)

I think Dier has room for improvement as a DM - he has had a number of shaky passes in the last few matches. But, overall, he plays his role very well. And, like it or not, he is one of Poch's most trusted players.

But that, in a nutshell is exactly why we need to upgrade Dier. You have a massive list of things in the "can't do" column and a list of one thing in the "can do" column. And then on the odd occasion we play any team that sets about pressing us for phases, that can do (well) lots becomes "none".

As well as slowing down the opponents attack, he slows down ours. In the best CM2 systems, even the more defensively disciplined of the two can play football. You can find players who are proficient at the defensive side, but also highly efficient at the transitional/offensive side. Wanyama is an upgrade on Dier, he has already has proven to be able to cover Dier's defensive role and give us more impetus at the same time.

I'm not looking for another player to cover Dier's remit, we already have Wanyama for that, I want the next Cm to be more of an "8" or one of those 6/8 hybrids.

The ideal for me, if we are going to keep playing CM2 systems is to have both players with some fucking vim and alacrity even if one of them has a more defensive remit.

I'd still put NDombele high up on my list.

THFCSPURS19 · Feb 16, 2018

Bus-Conductor said:
But that, in a nutshell is exactly why we need to upgrade Dier. You have a massive list of things in the "can't do" column and a list of one thing in the "can do" column. And then on the odd occasion we play any team that sets about pressing us for phases, that can do (well) lots becomes "none".

As well as slowing down the opponents attack, he slows down ours. In the best CM2 systems, even the more defensively disciplined of the two can play football. You can find players who are proficient at the defensive side, but also highly efficient at the transitional/offensive side. Wanyama is an upgrade on Dier, he has already has proven to be able to cover Dier's defensive role and give us more impetus at the same time.

I'm not looking for another player to cover Dier's remit, we already have Wanyama for that, I want the next Cm to be more of an "8" or one of those 6/8 hybrids.

The ideal for me, if we are going to keep playing CM2 systems is to have both players with some fucking vim and alacrity even if one of them has a more defensive remit.

I'd still put NDombele high up on my list.

Ndombele looks class. Not sure we'd be able to get him next summer though because he's on loan with an automatic option I think.

bceej · Feb 16, 2018

THFCSPURS19 said:
Ndombele looks class. Not sure we'd be able to get him next summer though because he's on loan with an automatic option I think.

Similar situation to Toby at Southampton?

QuasiModo80 · Feb 16, 2018

Have an Ajax fanatic friend. He says de Jong is a good talent, but not anywhere near Prem quality, and not a given that he will be even with time. He said those who think he is ready to come in and be Dembele’s backup/take his spot, will be dissapointed. It seems like de Jong was not in his top 3 most likely to succeed in the prem from the current Ajax team.

It is just his opinion, and not something that should be seen as anything other than that, but thought some could find it interesting.

Bus-Conductor · Feb 16, 2018

THFCSPURS19 said:
Ndombele looks class. Not sure we'd be able to get him next summer though because he's on loan with an automatic option I think.

He is, and it perhaps wouldn't be straightforward, but bottom line is, we buy him from Amiens or Lyon if we really want him.

sammyj · Feb 16, 2018

One of the reasons we bullied Liverpool United and arsenal was Eric dier, the negative stuff around dier from some fans is mental
I think levy will make a bale type of signing to open the new stadium.

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