Player Watch: Marcus Edwards

Trix said:

Had a long convo with my source last night and I have to say I am worried for the youth progression to the first team. If we sign the players we are targeting in the Summer I just don't see how any of the current crop are going to push through in the next couple of years.

Remember when I say this I have always in the past defended the club and Poch on how the youth set up is integrated into the first team.

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Perhaps it’s time to make the step up to signing some top proven players if we’re aiming to actually win things in the near future?

Youth promotion is laudable and a great thing if you can discover genuine talent, but if we’re genuinely in a position to improve with new signings, maybe it’s time to go down that road.

It’s the mediocre squad filling signings like Sissoko that block youth progression I don’t agree with.

coys200 said:

I realise that but why take him on loan. Norwich must have spoken to us about his attitude. Surly you take a loan for immediate impact. They still had a chance of play offs in January. Will be gone after this result today. Honestly if I take a kid on loan for 4 months and he’s better than someone in my squad I couldn’t give a monkeys if his attitude stinks he isn’t my problem long term. I mean Norwich are a football club not some youth rehabilitation centre. Just all seems very odd. .

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So what message would that send out to the rest of Norwich's squad if he's getting picked ahead of players busting a gut every day trying to get into the squad?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and presume you're not a manager.
This is exactly what Poch would've wanted if he didn't buckle down...if he was getting picked regardless it would fly in the face of everything about Poch's ethos.

They took him on loan because he's reportedly not costing them much, and if he buckled down he's a very talented player...it's an absolute no brainier really.

newbie said:

Shadydan said:

It's not just about ability, it's about attitude and mentality. Poch has alluded to his attitude before and needing him to mature.

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Saying it’s attitude prob sounds harsh I think it’s more to do with Edwards development in other areas of his game, the ones that probably do not come naturally.

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I have to agree.

Shadydan said:

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2018/01/20/mauricio-pochettino-explains-marcus-edwards-loan-decision/



This is probably why, getting him out of his comfort zone so he can learn new experiences, Poch knows he has the ability but he needs to mature as a man and that means he has to fight for a starting spot in the Norwich team. Just because he's on loan the Norwich manager doesn't have an obligation to play him and if he stays at Spurs then what else is he gonna learn?

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I was talking from Norwich point of view. I understand our thinking in what it could have done for him. But I still believe we were probably given some assurance/hope he would at least be on the bench.

coys200 said:

I was talking from Norwich point of view. I understand our thinking in what it could have done for him. But I still believe we were probably given some assurance/hope he would at least be on the bench.

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Why would any team give us those assurances. We all know Edwards is extremely talented so he should be able to force his way into that team. However he does not have a divine right to special treatment, if he isn’t showing the maturity to be in the match day squad then fair play to Norwich for not playing him.

coys200 said:

I can see why people get immersed in the whole youth thing. First off it’s fun, nothing better than spotting someone with potential in any walk of life and then seeing them fulfill it. It’s as close to being a proud parent as you can get. I’m pretty sure Dele would get a lot more leeway if he was “one of our own”. Although I hugely respect the views of our youth experts. I still feel it’s almost impossible for them to not give a slight bias view on how good a youth prospect is. Because it’s just a natural emotion in the same way a parent thinks their child is the best. It must actually be very difficult for Poch to be logical about youth players and not get emotionally distracted.

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I know many will disagree as I think I'm seen as fairly biased/agenda-driven, but that's not the case for me, honestly. It's more about the wasted resource (not just financial, but time) at club level and for England.

I am totally happy that 90% of our youth players will rightly leave and have careers in League One and Two (or below, or give up football altogether). Well done to them, well done to the club in providing a good numbers of football league players and for making some money, etc etc. But that final 10% - i.e. that's 1 per annual intake, in all likelihood - could benefit our squad in some way, and at the very least make us some good money.

At the moment we're struggling to convert that and that's a pity. It's not a disaster, it's not a sackable offence for anyone, but it's an area for development.

usually when a club wants assurances that the loaning club will use their player they'll demand a loan fee and/or include penalty clauses if the player isn't getting games. from farke's comments a few weeks ago it sounds like norwich haven't paid anything towards the loan(and quite possibly not much/nothing towards his wages either) so that would lead me to believe that playing games isn't the main reason we've allowed him to go there. there's still a good 2-3 months of the season left yet so it's also a bit premature to write the loan off as a waste of time in terms of getting minutes on the pitch. lastly, if his attitude was truly as terrible as some like to make out then i suspect norwich would have sent him back by now.

Shadydan said:

Interesting, wonder if those moaning at Poch binning Bentaleb actually admit they were wrong.

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I don't think anyone minds Bentaleb leaving. He was a first team player. He was given his chance which in the end benefited us financially and help take us to another level. As a first teamer Poch no longer wanted him, apparently for attitude reasons. The same way he no longer wanted Townsend. The only issue I think people had with selling him, is that we/they thought he was talented and he was our best CM for 2 years essentially, but fans disagree all the time over what players they think are good enough to stay or sell.

Personally my issue is not, selling on academy players if they don't eventually reach or maintain the required level. It's giving them a chance in the first place. I feel vindicated that a talented academy player, with apparent behavioural issues without any first team experience, was trusted by a manager and given a chance on his ability, and he proved that on his talent alone, despite the behavioural issues, he was good enough for a Top 6 club however his behavioural problems couldn't be managed, and in the end we made a large profit on him, saved money on his wages and could invest in players to take us to the next level. He was moved on, the same way I believe Winks will eventually be moved on but we will make some good money on him.

If only our current manager showed similar guts to the previous manager with an even more talented player. His talent alone could see him improve our first team or squad for a season or 2, then if he doesn't make it we sell on for a massive profit, and he keeps wages down. The Bentaleb case just strengthens my belief of giving Edwards a chance. Give a talented player with an supposed attitude problem a chance, and at worse you're making good money. It's not like we're going to outspend the 5 teams richer than us in the league, so we have to be more clever with our money

theShiznit said:

Maybe worthwhile as an ego diminishing process?

The Messi comparison from poch looks a bit misguided now. Not sure what his intention was when he said it(sure it was good) but don't think it's gone how either party would have invisaged.

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It’s a theory that we sent him there to show him he can’t even get in the Norwich squad so he wouldn’t get in ours. I don’t believe it personally.

Blake Griffin said:

usually when a club wants assurances that the loaning club will use their player they'll demand a loan fee and/or include penalty clauses if the player isn't getting games. from farke's comments a few weeks ago it sounds like norwich haven't paid anything towards the loan(and quite possibly not much/nothing towards his wages either) so that would lead me to believe that playing games isn't the main reason we've allowed him to go there. there's still a good 2-3 months of the season left yet so it's also a bit premature to write the loan off as a waste of time in terms of getting minutes on the pitch. lastly, if his attitude was truly as terrible as some like to make out then i suspect norwich would have sent him back by now.

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Yeah I think when when people are questioning his attitude, what they really mean is his application.
I dont think a bad attitude would really be tolerated at any club, especially from a youngster who has yet to prove himself at professional level.

Just saw on Twitter that marcus has just returned to fall training and that's why he was out

He's not playing because he's an athlete but he couldn't be arse to track back.
He's not even making the bench at Norwich!

Welcome to the real world, talent only gets you so far. Just look at the lot of idiots running countries as president, you think talent gets them there?. What i'm trying to say is, the kid gotta be street smart about this, you gotta fit in the team instead of the team trying to fit around you. Start working hard kid.The only man who I will give the privilege not to track back is David Ginola, because hes worth it, you're only worth as much as his chesthair at the moment

sammyj said:

Just saw on Twitter that marcus has just returned to fall training and that's why he was out

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so, he has to work up to Winter training, and then maybe ready for Spring?

sammyj said:

Just saw on Twitter that marcus has just returned to fall training and that's why he was out

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Fecks sake. No wonder rival fans call us a bunch of divers.

coys200 said:

I guess you can’t have it all. Ask the majority of Chelsea fans if they give a f*** about how many youth players have come through in last 15 years. While they polish their PL trophies. We can’t on one hand bash Levy for no trophies then show some ambition and bash Poch for no youth players. I think it will just mean that only the really exceptional will come through.

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The thing is, I and most youth watchers have been fairly consistent in our stance. I have always said if we win trophies I couldn't care less (one for you @Lilbaz ) if an academy player is used or not. People can look for my old posts if they want. The reason I and others want academy players to be used, is because we believe that we cannot outgun our PL rivals and European rivals in the transfer market, and as Poch said 'need to be more clever; I believe, we are sitting on a load of players that are good enough to be PL regulars and some World Class players. I believe if we sacrificed some first teamer minutes here and there we would reap these rewards. When people say, the PL is rubbish a bringing academy players through, and get caught up in the youth tournaments as say more needs to be done. I always ask myself why do people want that. It seems that most people just want players arbitrarily brought through, but for me the reason I want the best academy players to be used is because I think they will better the team and squad, and if they don't work out they will give us more resources to do so. I don't know why this gets clouded into, just wanting to give players a chance for the sake of it, and being emotional and having judgement clouded. I look forward to the day we start outbidding City, Chelesa and United on players, and stealing a march on these players that no one has heard of that will improve our squad. It won't happen. We have so many more players that can 'do a Kane' or at least a Rose.

People keep claiming Kane is now exceptional but it is just revisionism. Not many fans thought Kane would be that great. He got his chance purely because expensive signings completely flopped. While Kane had the EL to get some game time in and score goals. The fans had to practically sing Kane's name at one game for him to get his chance in the PL. If Soldado or Adebayor had scored 5 PL goals that season, while Kane was banging them in the EL he would still not have got his chance. If Kane came through now while we were in the CL and did not have his platform to sign he would be just another academy player who didn't make it and we would hear 'he shouldn't just be given chances, he wasn't working hard enough, not at the required level, if he can't make it at Norwich how can we expect to make it here', with no way for any 'youth watcher' to prove how good he was otherwise. You yourself said

coys200 said:

Some nice footage on spurs twitter of Kane at U18s. Does look like a man playing with boys it was so obvious

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Now you're average fan wasn't saying this when Kane was playing u18 football. It's revisionism where now we know he is exceptional people will look back and claim he always had it or was better than he was. Kane was always a very talented player, but there are just as many or more who have been better than him in the last few years. Kane being World Class is incredible, But Kane there are loads of Kanes in our academy. Kane, like Rose, coming through and being a quality player for a top 6 club wasn't because he was an exceptional player (there are many as good as Kane) it was because he came through via exceptional circumstances, which sadly don't appear to be replicated again. Any academy player that shows they are good enough for the PL or a top 6 club are labelled as special, because it is such a rare feat for any to get a chance, but they are not. They are just the one of many that for whatever reason have managed to slip through the net of hiding academy players. If more got their chance we would start seeing some real special players. What makes this situation more infuriating, is we have Poch as our coach. He has no doubt helped take Kane to the next level, we are sitting on an incredible amount of resources, where all they need is that one chance, and then I trust that we have THE best manager who will get every last bit out of these talented players and make them incredible. But sadly it looks Poch is moving away and no longer trusting the academy that helped save him in his first season and we are STILL reaping the massive reward from in the form of Kane. It's not like we're going to sign any world class players soon.

Finally, I find the hypocrisy now that we have improved amusing. The last 3/4 seasons, I have seen our fans slagging of City and Chelsea for destroying careers, and not bringing through any academy players. I have read our fans say they are wasting players and criticise players for wanting to go to either of those clubs. I too have joined in the criticism as I believe they could still give chances to academy players, being successful doesn't stop that, but I also acknowledge that they are winning things so it's not in their interest too. I have also read many times our fans taking the moral high ground and say things like' throwing money at things doesn't always work' or I like that we instead like to develop and grow our own players and not just buy.

Now all of a sudden we're a regular Top 6 club and fans are now justifying why we can't give academy players a chance. I guess this is only an excuse we're allowed to use, unless people are going to start apologising for the stick they've given those clubs as we are now doing the exact same thing, but this time it is OK smh. The difference between us and them though, is one of those clubs has been PL champion in 2 out of the last 3 seasons, and the other club is currently running away with the league, because they have the finances to do what they want. They can justify rightly or wrongly not using their academy players as they are winning things, what's our excuse? As I have said again and again, we/Poch is NO different to any PL manager. All being well though, we end up winning trophies and I couldn't care less if we use and academy player, though I think they have the benefit of making the fans feel closer to the team.

coys200 said:

I can see why people get immersed in the whole youth thing. First off it’s fun, nothing better than spotting someone with potential in any walk of life and then seeing them fulfill it. It’s as close to being a proud parent as you can get. I’m pretty sure Dele would get a lot more leeway if he was “one of our own”. Although I hugely respect the views of our youth experts. I still feel it’s almost impossible for them to not give a slight bias view on how good a youth prospect is. Because it’s just a natural emotion in the same way a parent thinks their child is the best. It must actually be very difficult for Poch to be logical about youth players and not get emotionally distracted.

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My view is no more bias than a 'regular' Spurs fan giving their views on Spurs players compared to other clubs. We are all bias to Spurs players. What I don't understand is that fans that only watch the first team apparently are able to make more of an informed judgement or opinion than those who watch both the first team and the academy, shouldn't the latter lot be able to make more objective views having seen fair amounts of both. And yes we do take into account they are playing against other kids, this isn't something lost on us. It's actually quite condescending for fans to sit there and say, I don't think these guys realise they aren't playing against adults, it's like one or two per year group that people believe are good enough. No one acknowledges the fact we think 95% shouldn't get a chance, we are able to make comparisons between players in a same age group and then compare the ability of someone from the academy to that of a first teamer. No I don't see them in training but it doesn't stop people making comparisons from other leagues. I always wonder how a reasonable sane fan with decent views on the first team views start watching youth football, and think that the academy players actually look decent and good contribute to the first team squad. Surely, not all of their brains can turn to deluded mush. Maybe, just maybe, the common denominator could be that a lot of those players do have the potential to be quality PL players and just need a chance. As proven by those few who have been given opportunities, as said by John McDermott, as said by Scott Parker, and as said by the Monchengladbach Sporting Director who will have more knowledge on academy players in Europe than any PL manager and objectively believes that ours are better than the ones we currently go out to sign.

Anyway it seems like the future is how I have seen it for the last 3 years, but was constantly being told to believe or trust that they'd 'get their chance if they're good enough'. If the standard we are holding to academy players, is to be better than internationals, with no first team experience while playing out of position, then I concede none will ever be good enough. Thank God Kane didn't come through now and had a manger that trusted him to give him that chance.

See @scat1620 I gotchu

LexingtonSpurs said:

so, he has to work up to Winter training, and then maybe ready for Spring?

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#americanlols

Shadydan said:

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2018/01/20/mauricio-pochettino-explains-marcus-edwards-loan-decision/



This is probably why, getting him out of his comfort zone so he can learn new experiences, Poch knows he has the ability but he needs to mature as a man and that means he has to fight for a starting spot in the Norwich team. Just because he's on loan the Norwich manager doesn't have an obligation to play him and if he stays at Spurs then what else is he gonna learn?

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They always say best way to develop is to get them out of their comfort, competent and another C. I think it could be beneficial to him but I don't know how much it will matter in the end. While I think he is good enough to play for us, training with us, isn't going to be of any more use to him in the long run than training with Norwich. It's a new experience and could 'mature' him

Gb160 said:

Yeah I think when when people are questioning his attitude, what they really mean is his application.
I dont think a bad attitude would really be tolerated at any club, especially from a youngster who has yet to prove himself at professional level.

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It appears people have this image like he's Nile Ranger or Ravel Morrison, who actually have convictions. Hes just a talented kid with a bit of arrogance. I actually think the main reason he isn't getting a look in is because people are afraid of his size still. I don't really think a player of his stature, unless you have incredible speed , has ever had a chance in English football, and that doesn't seem to have changed, despite the league being more technical.

This might upset a few posters but we are not a development club anymore.

We are becoming a top club in Europe.

If our youth players are not good enough, that doesn't bother me.

If they are good enough, they will get chances e.g. Winks

Basil Brush said:

This might upset a few posters but we are not a development club anymore.

We are becoming a top club in Europe.

If our youth players are not good enough, that doesn't bother me.

If they are good enough, they will get chances e.g. Winks

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I don't think anyone would disagree with. That so long as we win trophies, however I just hope we hold that same standard to signings.

I am willing to take the risk of playing a an academy player for massive future gains. This is no different to signings, except there is apparently less risk, but in my opinion, when you take our comparative finances into account, there are less gains to be made. No academy player whether they have have been thrown in, had a clear pathway laid out for them or given a chance as part of an agenda has ever bombed for us as much as some signings like Stambouli. However, we also have academy players who have also been as good or better than our greatest ever signings.

Football players all start from somewhere, whether it's the Estudiantes academy or an academy in Kenya, they all get their chances to eventually be bought by us. Our academy players by virtue of training at one of the top 3 academies in the richest league in the world, in a football mad country are at 16/17 better at the same age than the large majority of players we end up signings. I just want us to give them those same opportunities, to see what we have.

Why would I or anyone want a player to play if it is to the detriment of our club. It's a ridiculous notion. We all want the same thing. As long as we are successful I don't care how we get there.